NTRP determining

Koaske

Rookie
Should I determine players' NTRPs by that what they can do at their best, in 'the high concentration mode' or just how they usually play? Also , I have friends that play very differently depending on if they're in a match or just practice. I assume I should take a note of that too?
 

joe sch

Legend
Should be based on record, that way when players sandbag and win too many tournaments at a certain level, the USTA should force them up to the next level
 
S

SageOfDeath

Guest
People always play better in practice. And often play better in practice matches. Have them play in a real tournament match, that's how you can determine their NTRP. Why rate someone on how they usually don't play?

If you don't mind me asking. Why are you determining other player's NTRPs?
 

donnyz89

Hall of Fame
i use to be pretty crazy about those NTRP ratings. but they are not really that useful imo unless u need to use them for leagues and tournaments. otherwise just focus on your game, your performance speaks louder than numbers.
 

Koaske

Rookie
SageOfDeath said:
If you don't mind me asking. Why are you determining other player's NTRPs?
Well , this is nothing official, just doing it for fun. I'm a player that likes to think much. Plus , I really like the NTRP scales on the net since they show what's needed to improve in order to get to the next level.
 

donnyz89

Hall of Fame
from tons of players be4 that wants know their NTRP ratings... my suggestions is stay away from scales on the internet, it will REALLY dissappoint you when you figure out your REAL rating as oppose to your selfrating with the internet. I think at first, i rated myself at least 1.0 higher...

but basically, u learn all the shots til about 3.5 4.0, then its all about consistancy and strategy and tactics. mainly consistancy. its gonna raise by like 200% every 0.5 lv after 4.5...
 

x Southpaw x

Semi-Pro
donnyz89 said:
from tons of players be4 that wants know their NTRP ratings... my suggestions is stay away from scales on the internet, it will REALLY dissappoint you when you figure out your REAL rating as oppose to your selfrating with the internet. I think at first, i rated myself at least 1.0 higher...

but basically, u learn all the shots til about 3.5 4.0, then its all about consistancy and strategy and tactics. mainly consistancy. its gonna raise by like 200% every 0.5 lv after 4.5...
I agree with your first paragraph... but I'm quite sure your second para is guessing. It's impossible to learn all the shots at that level. And it's not mainly consistency after 4.5.
 

donnyz89

Hall of Fame
all the shots mean, I can have pros feed me backhand, forehand, volley, overhead and I can make all those shots without missing them like idiots. There are 2.5, 3.0 players that cant hit 10 backhands over the net in a row that are being fed to them.

and if its not mainly consistancy, i dont know what is. yes, the inner part of the game has to improve as far as mental, strategize, but at 4.5, most people can serve a 110 mph ball or hit a kick serve but as you get better, your placement and pace has to be more consistant, meaning, at 4.5 u might be able to place 5/10 passing shots whereever u want, and u CAN do those things, but 5/10 is hardly enough. 5.0 will be 9/10 on the same shot and 5/10 on a more difficult shot. those are not shots u DONT KNOW how to make, u just cant make it on a consistant bases. so by 4.0 its not about can u hit a backhand, its more about can u PLACE your backhand and HOW many times in a row can u place it whereever u want and the depth and everything.

my meaning of consistancy doesnt mean like getting the ball over the net, but placement, height, depth consistancy. by 4.0, u can do them but not consistant under pressure or pace etc... hope i make sense.
 

kicker75

Rookie
You still can get "officially" rated by a USPTR pro if you want, though it's doesn't really mean anything except that you get a trained eye's objective opinion.

Plus, you may play at say a 4.5 level, take a layoff, still think you are a 4.5, but in fact you play more like a 4
 

x Southpaw x

Semi-Pro
donnyz89 said:
all the shots mean, I can have pros feed me backhand, forehand, volley, overhead and I can make all those shots without missing them like idiots. There are 2.5, 3.0 players that cant hit 10 backhands over the net in a row that are being fed to them.

and if its not mainly consistancy, i dont know what is. yes, the inner part of the game has to improve as far as mental, strategize, but at 4.5, most people can serve a 110 mph ball or hit a kick serve but as you get better, your placement and pace has to be more consistant, meaning, at 4.5 u might be able to place 5/10 passing shots whereever u want, and u CAN do those things, but 5/10 is hardly enough. 5.0 will be 9/10 on the same shot and 5/10 on a more difficult shot. those are not shots u DONT KNOW how to make, u just cant make it on a consistant bases. so by 4.0 its not about can u hit a backhand, its more about can u PLACE your backhand and HOW many times in a row can u place it whereever u want and the depth and everything.

my meaning of consistancy doesnt mean like getting the ball over the net, but placement, height, depth consistancy. by 4.0, u can do them but not consistant under pressure or pace etc... hope i make sense.
You can say all that... but at the end of it all... am I right that you're guessing all this or basing this on what you think you know? I mean if you're a teaching pro or coach that is certified to rate people, sure, but I personally think your guidelines are as misleading or more misleading than those from official tennis websites.

I suppose when you say all the shots, you mean all the basic strokes. There's many ways to finish off a point, many ways to defend a point, etc and they are different kind of shots. As for consistency, I think you're generalizing it too much. You're putting power, direction, depth into the consistency category when these four are widely considered to be very different, with consistency famed to be king of the four. Yet! Even if you group them all into consistency, it's still not Mainly or 200% consistency. You'll be surprised how broad the subject of strategy can be, it's not something that you have or don't, it's something that is as widely ranged as the NTRP scale. Don't forget tournament experience. Tournament experience is above competitive match experience which is in turn above recreational match experience which is above practice.

All in all, most would agree that NTRP official guidelines are misleading, and thus any guidelines for the matter that relate to official ratings are misleading. You don't want people who are improving their consistency by 300% to think that they are much closer to the next level, because like you said, they're gonna be disappointed when they get their actual rating. So... go get an actual rating if you want to be involved with NTRP ratings.
 

All Court

Rookie
I'm agreeing on the consistency part. Southpaw, when people are 4.0s they have all the shots. They have the weapons they are going to have for the rest of their life. At that level, they have their depth and power and big strokes.

Everything above is how well you can pull it off under pressure. That IS consistency. In a full on war, can they keep up with each ball and send it back again? They have to crack the same shots they had at a 4.0 level, but in all kinds of situations.

So I don't think there's something like a "5.0 stroke" or "7.0" stroke, just the same stroke under pressure. Usually, the people hitting the ball as hard as they can at the "3.0 level" are 3.0s because they don't move their feet enough, and when the conditions aren't ideal can't keep that ball in play. But as they move up they learn to keep it in.'

Just my two cents.
 

Koaske

Rookie
Okay , thanks for the tips. I don't think I'll be relying too much on internet NTRPs if they can as much misleading as 1.0 difference... If I wanted to know my own level , I guess that I should enter a tournament and see how well I can do there. Never been in one.
 

x Southpaw x

Semi-Pro
All Court said:
I'm agreeing on the consistency part. Southpaw, when people are 4.0s they have all the shots. They have the weapons they are going to have for the rest of their life. At that level, they have their depth and power and big strokes.

Everything above is how well you can pull it off under pressure. That IS consistency. In a full on war, can they keep up with each ball and send it back again? They have to crack the same shots they had at a 4.0 level, but in all kinds of situations.

So I don't think there's something like a "5.0 stroke" or "7.0" stroke, just the same stroke under pressure. Usually, the people hitting the ball as hard as they can at the "3.0 level" are 3.0s because they don't move their feet enough, and when the conditions aren't ideal can't keep that ball in play. But as they move up they learn to keep it in.'

Just my two cents.
What consistency part? That power depth direction are all part of consistency? Or that it is mainly consistency to improve in levels and that consistency increases 200%?

Sheesh. If power depth direction are all part of consistency, you're saying that Federer is more consistent than Hewitt. Tsk.

If you think consistency is the main thing to care about when improving levels... well fine... you don't give a damn about point construction... nor footwork... nor... whatever. Just ask yourself why someone who has lousier strokes would lose to someone who has better strokes and you'll answer your own question.
 

donnyz89

Hall of Fame
again... u are misunderstanding the word consistancy. i dont mean consistancy used by a counterpuncher, i mean consistantly doing the things you need to do to win the match. when u get to 4.0 or 4.5, u can have a nice rally at a medium pace without hitting backhands way out like u would at 3.0 because u havent "learned" the stroke completely yet. after that is how often can u make the shots u want under certain situations. u will know what shot to make BEFORE u have the consistancy to make it, example, if u get a shot ball slice, u will know to get some height and depth and maybe put it DTL and move in, u will know that before u can execute that properly and consistantly. yes, a 4.0 can hit an approach shot dtl with depth and height, but how consistantly can he/she do and and how consistantly can he hit a GOOD appeoarch shot AND make the finishing volley?
 

cak

Professional
The way to truely determine your NTRP unfortunately takes a season. First, you find people around you that play pretty even with you. That means when playing against them you win about half the time, or all your matches someone wins by one service break per set or less. (6-4, 6-4 for instance). Then find out what NTRP they are. Then self rate yourself on the computer at that rating. (Note, many captains will talk folks into rating below the people they play even with. For instance, if they play even with some 3.5 guys they tell them to rate at 3.0 and play on the 3.0 team. This in itself is ethical. Often match play will bring out jitters and lower one's game. However if this player then steps in and starts killing folks, it moves to the sandbagging range. An ethical person will stop playing at the lower level and move to a higher rated team.) Once you have self rated, join a league team or play in some NTRP tournaments at your rating. The following November if you've played more than two matches you will receive a computer NTRP. (The more matches you play the more accurate it is.) That's a true NTRP. Anyone that tells you their rating before you can see it on Tennislink as a computer rating is just guessing.
 

x Southpaw x

Semi-Pro
donnyz89 said:
when u get to 4.0 or 4.5, u can have a nice rally at a medium pace without hitting backhands way out like u would at 3.0 because u havent "learned" the stroke completely yet.
k. you can define consistency however you like. tho this thread is about ntrp not consistency. look at your quote above. i want you to trust when i say i can have a nice rally at a fast pace without hitting groundstrokes out. i also want you to trust when i say it's highly unlikely that i'm 4.0 or 4.5, especially since i'm unrated. i won't be surprised if in fact i lose to a 3.5 out of sheer nerve. why? because i'm unrated and not playing tournaments.

i already stated the main point of my disagreement with you. one that you are guessing. two that any guidelines about the ntrp is going to be misleading no matter how logical it seems. results speak for themselves and official ntrp ratings are results. ok i think i'm done on this thread
 

x Southpaw x

Semi-Pro
cak said:
The way to truely determine your NTRP unfortunately takes a season. First, you find people around you that play pretty even with you. That means when playing against them you win about half the time, or all your matches someone wins by one service break per set or less. (6-4, 6-4 for instance). Then find out what NTRP they are. Then self rate yourself on the computer at that rating. (Note, many captains will talk folks into rating below the people they play even with. For instance, if they play even with some 3.5 guys they tell them to rate at 3.0 and play on the 3.0 team. This in itself is ethical. Often match play will bring out jitters and lower one's game. However if this player then steps in and starts killing folks, it moves to the sandbagging range. An ethical person will stop playing at the lower level and move to a higher rated team.) Once you have self rated, join a league team or play in some NTRP tournaments at your rating. The following November if you've played more than two matches you will receive a computer NTRP. (The more matches you play the more accurate it is.) That's a true NTRP. Anyone that tells you their rating before you can see it on Tennislink as a computer rating is just guessing.

Yeah thank you, I think you explained a good solution well.
 

donnyz89

Hall of Fame
cak said:
The following November if you've played more than two matches you will receive a computer NTRP. (The more matches you play the more accurate it is.) That's a true NTRP. Anyone that tells you their rating before you can see it on Tennislink as a computer rating is just guessing.



i use to be pretty crazy about those NTRP ratings. but they are not really that useful imo unless u need to use them for leagues and tournaments. otherwise just focus on your game, your performance speaks louder than numbers.
that was my original view on his thread as far as determining NTRP rating. and I added if u want to improve your NTRP rating and win against better players, its consistancy that can help you win at higher lvs. whether its serve or vollies or approach shots etc...
 
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