NTRP rating

#5
Did your son grow a lot since last video. ;)

I watched the first couple of games, will watch the entire video later. To me, I see two players that are on their way to top tier ... but they have to get more stingy with their unforced errors. Put it this way ... your son looks like a junior I would have played in the past where my old man "don't miss" play would have bothered. Then they show up next summer and beat me easily. :eek:

You have to ask him for me if he aimed at that ball on the court @4:30 on purpose. hehehe ... love it.
 

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#7
Did your son grow a lot since last video. ;)

I watched the first couple of games, will watch the entire video later. To me, I see two players that are on their way to top tier ... but they have to get more stingy with their unforced errors. Put it this way ... your son looks like a junior I would have played in the past where my old man "don't miss" play would have bothered. Then they show up next summer and beat me easily. :eek:

You have to ask him for me if he aimed at that ball on the court @4:30 on purpose. hehehe ... love it.
I re watched that ball on court point a couple times to see how it got there. It's like one of those incredible golf putts with a super break. I think the last ball was a FH volley. It was just a safe singles volley. He said he didn't even realize the ball was on the court. He needs to learn doubles volley.
 
#8
I re watched that ball on court point a couple times to see how it got there. It's like one of those incredible golf putts with a super break. I think the last ball was a FH volley. It was just a safe singles volley. He said he didn't even realize the ball was on the court. He needs to learn doubles volley.
He hit 3-4 balls in a row at it. :cool:
 

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#9
Did your son grow a lot since last video. ;)

I watched the first couple of games, will watch the entire video later. To me, I see two players that are on their way to top tier ... but they have to get more stingy with their unforced errors. Put it this way ... your son looks like a junior I would have played in the past where my old man "don't miss" play would have bothered. Then they show up next summer and beat me easily. :eek:

You have to ask him for me if he aimed at that ball on the court @4:30 on purpose. hehehe ... love it.
Yup. He grew. From last year's video (actually saw it was one year ago) he gained a few inches. But more importantly, got a lot stronger (varsity swim team). His movements are faster and he's putting a lot more pace and spin on the ball. His control has gone way up and he is able to handle different types of balls better. Last year's video showed he had trouble with my off pace junk balls. (actually, I can see that my own game has improved over last year, so there is hope for older players. LOL)
 
#10
4.0

Both have a tendency to overhit their FHs; black shirt more than blue shirt.

Black I think missed every single first serve in his first service game. His 2nd serve is reasonably good so why didn't he ease back on his first serve?

I like Blue's tendency to move forward on short balls and continue moving forward.

I didn't see a lot of point construction. Blue/lefty should have been hitting everything CC to Black/righty BH and vice versa.

Blue had the better overall game; I liked the loop on his BH swing. It was more fluid than Black's.

Black allowed the ball to get too close to his body on his FHs, especially when moving forward.
 
#11
Black I think missed every single first serve in his first service game. His 2nd serve is reasonably good so why didn't he ease back on his first serve?
You don't think that's the correct thing to do? I've practiced my 2nd serve diligently and am pretty consistent with it. So I use that a lot for my 1st serve too these days whenever I have problems landing that first serve. The problem is I never win any easy points and every point/game is a grind. IMO if you have a consistent 2nd serve, why not go for it on the first serve, and then slowly learn to control any excess power? Especially for a kid, I'd just encourage him to continue going for it, as long as he's continuously paying attention, improving, and not just hitting the back fence every time.
 
#12
You don't think that's the correct thing to do? I've practiced my 2nd serve diligently and am pretty consistent with it. So I use that a lot for my 1st serve too these days whenever I have problems landing that first serve. The problem is I never win any easy points and every point/game is a grind. IMO if you have a consistent 2nd serve, why not go for it on the first serve, and then slowly learn to control any excess power? Especially for a kid, I'd just encourage him to continue going for it, as long as he's continuously paying attention, improving, and not just hitting the back fence every time.
It depends: if it's a match, I will ease back sooner, especially if my 1st serve % is very low.

It also depends on what kind of 1st serve % I normally achieve. If it's usually 65-70%, I'll keep it up longer on the assumption that my serve will eventually go in. If it's usually 30%, I'd ease back more quickly.

I don't want to give my opponent more opportunities to attack the return. Everyone's got to make that decision as to where the line is drawn and I'm not saying that line is the same for everyone.
 
#13
I wasn't able to watch the whole video but probably 4.0, maybe 4.2? Good players, just not a ton of pace on the ball and a lot of UEs. Definitely on their way up.
 
#14
It depends: if it's a match, I will ease back sooner, especially if my 1st serve % is very low.

It also depends on what kind of 1st serve % I normally achieve. If it's usually 65-70%, I'll keep it up longer on the assumption that my serve will eventually go in. If it's usually 30%, I'd ease back more quickly.

I don't want to give my opponent more opportunities to attack the return. Everyone's got to make that decision as to where the line is drawn and I'm not saying that line is the same for everyone.
Agreed but that line is a very difficult one to draw. A big part of landing that first serve in consistently is trusting that your practice and muscle memory will stick it in. If you don't have a certain mindset of going for it, IMO you will fall back way too quickly to being more conservative. If a kid has a consistent 2nd serve, I'd encourage him to continue to go for it on the 1st serve. Now if he's making a ton of double faults or opponents are teeing off on his 2nd serve, then I'd ask him to dial back.
 
#15
It depends: if it's a match, I will ease back sooner, especially if my 1st serve % is very low.

It also depends on what kind of 1st serve % I normally achieve. If it's usually 65-70%, I'll keep it up longer on the assumption that my serve will eventually go in. If it's usually 30%, I'd ease back more quickly.

I don't want to give my opponent more opportunities to attack the return. Everyone's got to make that decision as to where the line is drawn and I'm not saying that line is the same for everyone.
I bet you two aren't talking about the same tennis. You are setting up your s&v ... ironically avoiding the grind @mcs1970 is trying to avoid with bigger 1st serve.
 
#16
I bet you two aren't talking about the same tennis. You are setting up your s&v ... ironically avoiding the grind @mcs1970 is trying to avoid with bigger 1st serve.
Good point: I'm usually happy even with a reasonable 2nd serve so I can get into the net. Against the better opponents, that will simply result in getting passed more. So where I draw the line also varies by opponent.
 

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#17
4.0

Both have a tendency to overhit their FHs; black shirt more than blue shirt.

Black I think missed every single first serve in his first service game. His 2nd serve is reasonably good so why didn't he ease back on his first serve?

I like Blue's tendency to move forward on short balls and continue moving forward.

I didn't see a lot of point construction. Blue/lefty should have been hitting everything CC to Black/righty BH and vice versa.

Blue had the better overall game; I liked the loop on his BH swing. It was more fluid than Black's.

Black allowed the ball to get too close to his body on his FHs, especially when moving forward.
So blue is upper varsity sophmore. Black is lower varsity junior of a rival school with a stronger team. Black asked to practice with blue. Blue probably played 85% capacity to keep the match "interesting". He typically will bagel him if he got serious. This particular practice set, the score was 6-1; the first 1 being the first game. I tried to tell blue to work on flattening out his FH as I think it's too loopy for his level of play. Since he's playing a weaker player, I told him its ok to make some errors working on a certain technique. I think he just disregarded me and just played to have fun.

Black has good moments and can be a solid player. But his biggest weakness is UE and sliding backwards under pressure. If he could clean those up, I'd say he can be a 4.0. Currently, I think he would be a good 3.5. I agree that he overhits his FH. No need to hit so hard when it's not hard enough to blow your opponent off the court. Go for angles and point construction.

Blue has beaten every 4.0 adult he has played. The adult's biggest comment is, "he hits all of my best shots back" "he's too fast". He lacks point construction. He needs to flatten out his FH to get more pace to shorten opponent's reaction time. Also, need to exploit his lefty serves more. He pretty much hit mostly faster 2nd serves for his first the entire match. His go-to strat is to grind out the point. But he's sort of caught at a cross roads of just being a wall vs hitting a weapons-grade shot. He's also experimenting on his touch shots. For as good as his game is, his OH is horrible.

I was really trying to test out my video setup. Finally got a hold of a go pro. Used an alligator clip type mount to clamp to the chain-link fence. I need to bring a step stool with me next time to mount it higher. But the focal length seemed to be pretty good. I'll need to try to get right on the center T next time. One of the serve out calls was questionable but the angle couldn't overturn the call on the court. :p

My new Win10 laptop doesn't have Movie Maker and I couldn't get Video Editor to work. So I had to break out my old desktop machine with Win7 and use Movie Maker to edit.
 
#18
In his first service game, Black went 2 out of 8. Of the 6 he missed, every one went into the net and roughly the same spot, height-wise. Even if he didn't adjust his power, he could have adjusted his height so he missed a few long and then he could figure out a middle ground.

In the 2nd service game, he went 3 out of 5, a lot better. So maybe he changed something or maybe his serve just warmed up.
 

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#19
Black allowed the ball to get too close to his body on his FHs, especially when moving forward.
This is a great observation. I hadn't noticed it until watching the video. I could see something was odd with his form, but couldn't put my finger on it. Also, I thought some of his FH slices were unnecessary. That he could have gotten behind the ball and hit a solid ts FH.

For some reason, he must be miss-judging how close he needs to be? I think I do something similar with my BH. I over run my BH and hit it too close to me.
 
#20
Good point: I'm usually happy even with a reasonable 2nd serve so I can get into the net. Against the better opponents, that will simply result in getting passed more. So where I draw the line also varies by opponent.
In singles tournaments my flat 1st serve usually only came out for two reasons 1) opponent returning deuce slice wide or ad kicker wide too good (not that often in 4.5) 2) breather or change of pace. Serving in two hour matches in high heat and humidity could really take it out of you. Sometimes a s&v brother just needs that flat ace to the deuce T. ;) The other calculation was a 2/3 kicker 1st serve that gave you all you needed to come in with success, avoided a lot of 2nd serve energy loss.
 
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#22
Blue has beaten every 4.0 adult he has played. The adult's biggest comment is, "he hits all of my best shots back" "he's too fast". He lacks point construction. He needs to flatten out his FH to get more pace to shorten opponent's reaction time. Also, need to exploit his lefty serves more. He pretty much hit mostly faster 2nd serves for his first the entire match. His go-to strat is to grind out the point. But he's sort of caught at a cross roads of just being a wall vs hitting a weapons-grade shot. He's also experimenting on his touch shots. For as good as his game is, his OH is horrible.
Good foundation. On some of the short ones, perhaps a slice would have been better than expending so much effort to try and come up on the ball [ie 1:05].

Blue reminded me a lot of someone I played earlier this year [I lost 8-10 in the 3rd set TB; :mad:] who will likely get bumped to 5.0 at year-end: although this opponent did everything better, the game style similarity was there.

One of the serve out calls was questionable but the angle couldn't overturn the call on the court. :p
The one at 6:39? Yeah, looked in to me. No one's perfect.

BTW: an attentive roaming umpire will call Blue's serve at 9:00 a foot fault. His left foot at contact was OK but it started the service motion on the wrong side of the center hash [Isner and Safin have been called for this before]. It's esoteric but why even risk the chance of being called for it in a big pressure situation? Just tell him to move to the left by a couple of feet.

More generally, why is he changing his starting serve position on the Ad side? Is it to take advantage of the lefty slice out wide? He doesn't have that variation on the Deuce side, that I observed.
 

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#24
I feel like to the casual observer, the two players are very good tennis players. It may appear that one player is getting more points than the other (or more UE). But they are similar levels. However, from a league stand-point or tournament standpoint, they are different levels. Again, a 3.5-4.0 vs 4.0-4.5.

Also, if you are the weaker player, its tough to see how good you are by just playing "close" to your opponents. Your opponent is probably not going all out. Only when you threaten to beat them will you see your opponent's best.

This is why it's tough to gauge player's level just with a practice match.
 

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#25
Good foundation. On some of the short ones, perhaps a slice would have been better than expending so much effort to try and come up on the ball [ie 1:05].
I think we discussed this about moving forward. Blue has one of the slowest first steps of someone with his speed. But my guess is a bit of indecision. It was also the first game, so I'll just blame it on slow to warm up. He's like a flourescent light bulb. Takes a while to hit his stride.
BTW: an attentive roaming umpire will call Blue's serve at 9:00 a foot fault. His left foot at contact was OK but it started the service motion on the wrong side of the center hash [Isner and Safin have been called for this before]. It's esoteric but why even risk the chance of being called for it in a big pressure situation? Just tell him to move to the left by a couple of feet.

More generally, why is he changing his starting serve position on the Ad side? Is it to take advantage of the lefty slice out wide? He doesn't have that variation on the Deuce side, that I observed.
I'll point out that part of the video.

He tends to switch on Ad side from Lefty slice to power top down the T or kicker to the body. I guess I hadn't noticed his positioning. I'll let him know that is a tell he doesn't want to offer his opponents. Unless he wants to mess with them.
 
#26
Is this high school? They look about the level of our kids, general players. My son is our number one and he can hang with 4.5 players. Definitely both have academy or coach training, so these guy/kids are probably around 4.0 based on serving and groundy errors. If college they probably play club or are deep in the lineup on D3.
 

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#27
Is this high school? They look about the level of our kids, general players. My son is our number one and he can hang with 4.5 players. Definitely both have academy or coach training, so these guy/kids are probably around 4.0 based on serving and groundy errors. If college they probably play club or are deep in the lineup on D3.
Blue shirt = sophmore in HS
Black shirt = junior in HS
 

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#38
I'm pretty close. 1 utr point can be a competitive match. So black shirt is actually not too far behind.
Black is a good player in his own right. But if the two played a formal match, say they ran into each other at a USTA tournament, the score would be 0,1. I don't know how that correlates to UTR. Maybe with JR, it's a bit different?
 
#39
Black is a good player in his own right. But if the two played a formal match, say they ran into each other at a USTA tournament, the score would be 0,1. I don't know how that correlates to UTR. Maybe with JR, it's a bit different?
Utr is actually the best for juniors. Because they all play each other. I think in this instance it could be match up. What I have discovered is 1 utr is anyone's match. But the jump from 7 to 8 is a pretty significant one in terms of consistency usually. Also I don't think any 4.0 ntrp adult is going to beat the 8 utr blue shirt. Or the 7 imo.
 

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#40
Utr is actually the best for juniors. Because they all play each other. I think in this instance it could be match up. What I have discovered is 1 utr is anyone's match. But the jump from 7 to 8 is a pretty significant one in terms of consistency usually. Also I don't think any 4.0 ntrp adult is going to beat the 8 utr blue shirt. Or the 7 imo.
That is probably the biggest difference between the two. Blue is MUCH more consistent. Much lower UE. In extended matches, blue has more fitness.
 

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#41
Utr is actually the best for juniors. Because they all play each other. I think in this instance it could be match up. What I have discovered is 1 utr is anyone's match. But the jump from 7 to 8 is a pretty significant one in terms of consistency usually. Also I don't think any 4.0 ntrp adult is going to beat the 8 utr blue shirt. Or the 7 imo.
They are good players, and you are probably right with your analysis.

However they couldn't hold a candle against your average ttw poster on these forums, they would be lucky to win a game off almost any of our amazing players here :D:D:D:D
 
#42
Utr is actually the best for juniors. Because they all play each other. I think in this instance it could be match up. What I have discovered is 1 utr is anyone's match. But the jump from 7 to 8 is a pretty significant one in terms of consistency usually. Also I don't think any 4.0 ntrp adult is going to beat the 8 utr blue shirt. Or the 7 imo.
its very difficult to quantify a video rating of players these day simply because ther so much sandbagging in local tourneys.

you have players 5.0 level playing in a 3.5 contest. so very common.
 
#43
These guys are bad with going for sideline shots and variety balls. When they try to go for the sidelines they hit out a ton. Against variety balls (different depth, height) they throw away all their forms and improvise with reaching, whatever, and screw up badly.

They are mince meats for any tournament "pushers".
 
#46
Lol. 8 utr is top end of 4.5. (9 utr is 5.0. )
You guys have no idea. Watch a 4.0 match on video. It's slow motion compared to these kids.
These guys are bad with going for sideline shots and variety balls. When they try to go for the sidelines they hit out a ton. Against variety balls (different depth, height) they throw away all their forms and improvise with reaching, whatever, and screw up badly.

They are mince meats for any tournament "pushers".
4.0 is about right... both need to develop some weapon... right now they just hit 'nothing balls' from the baseline.
 

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#47
Lol. 8 utr is top end of 4.5. (9 utr is 5.0. )
You guys have no idea. Watch a 4.0 match on video. It's slow motion compared to these kids.
This chart shows it different



I would say it looks accurate, @J011yroger said he is utr11 or 12? So would make him a strong 5.0

If utr9 was 5.0 then j011y would be playing futures lol

Top pro atp players are utr16

And WTA is utr14
 
#50
I don't know what your chart is. if you go to myutr.com. it shows utr ratings compared to different criteria. It is very accurate. Also I have a kid who has player junior girls, 5.0 men and junior boys for the past few years. I have pretty good hands on experience with utr. I know many utr 8, 14 years old boys . They can easily handle most 4.5 men. 9 utr boys match well with 5.0 men. A 10 utr boy beats most 5.0 men. D1 players usually start at 12 utr.

I have not idea what jollys utr is. An 11 utr is a national level 16 year old. If that is what jolly is for comparison.

Don't get caught up in the adult ntrp crowd thinking these juniors cannot play. They would wipe the floor with most adult players. And these kids are not even that good. 8 utr is sectional level junior 16. Good but not great.

And don't give me the wiles of adult players or pushing. These kids can push if they want. They are way fitter then a 4.0 adult.
This chart shows it different



I would say it looks accurate, @J011yroger said he is utr11 or 12? So would make him a strong 5.0

If utr9 was 5.0 then j011y would be playing futures lol

Top pro atp players are utr16

And WTA is utr14
 
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