NTRP ratings--help figuring it out?

[kumat63]

After a 15 year lay-off I started playing tennis again just about two years ago. One new thing for me is the NTRP rating system, and to be honest, I really don't get it. I read the description of various levels, and aside from 6.0 and up where it's pretty obvious based on national rankings, I don't really get it. It seems so subjective, and I'm still trying to figure out where I fit, 4.0, 4.5, 5.0?

I played Div. I college tennis in the early 80s (for a smaller Div. I school, not a powerhouse or anything) and bounced back and forth between J.V squad and 5 or 6 singles on the travelling team. Played recreationally for a few years after college and then just let it go till recently.

I've played guys who say they are 4.0 and beat them easily. Played a couple other "4.5" players and that was more competitive but I still handled them pretty easily. Emboldened by those results, I tried playing an "open division--5.0 and up" tournament and got thrashed--happy to get a couple games in each match. I asked the guys who beat me what their rating was and the both said "5.0". So here's my confusion--it seemed like a huge gap between 4.5 and 5.0 from my limited experience. I'm much slower than in college (the main reason I got thrashed in the open tournament, really) but I'm still pretty fit (I weigh the same as I did in college so I'm not overweight and I work out regularly with lots of cardio). I hit the ball solidly off both sides with good depth and decent pace and placement, have a decent and reliable serve, I can kick it or slice it on second serves, place it within a couple feet of my spot, and still get a few aces off the flat first serve. I don't have major weapons (never did) but don't make many mistakes. In college I considered my style of play "high level pusher". But this business of self-rating seems so subjective and I really can't figure out where I fit. Can anyone shed more light on this for me and where an early 40's ex-college player returning to the game probably fits?

Thanks...

 

[cak]

If you are a former Div 1 unranked college player age 31-45 you are no lower than a 5.0, according to:

http://dps.usta.com/usta_master/usta/doc/content/doc_13_7372.pdf?12/20/2005 5:08:52 PM

If you self rate 4.0, and someone found you on a Div 1 roster in the 80s, you could get all your matches forfeited. Even at 4.5, you are still below the guidelines, and if you win all your matches you might be vulnerable for a grievance. My experience with my own 20 year lay-off is that you will continue to improve quickly. I'd go self rating at 4.5, but playing up at 5.0. If you really don't play equal to the 5.0s you will get a computer rating of 4.5 at the end of the year, and be able to legally play 4.5.

 

[atatu]

Not sure where you are, but my experience has been that 4.5 leagues are much more competitive than 4.5 tournaments and the same with 5.0 leagues. There are guys who play 5.0 leagues here who are easily open level players. Anway, according to the USTA guidelines, if you played Div 1. tennis, you should not be playing below the 5.0 level unless you are over the age of 51. The guidelines do not take into account how long you've been away from tennis, however.

 

[atatu]

Oh, sorry, Cak beat me to it....

 

[Kaptain Karl]

Also, players lie ... a lot. In casual conversation at the club, "Joe Bag O'Donuts" will tell you he's a 4.5. But you'll notice Joe plays in a 3.5 League. IOW, when not held to any standard of honesty, players inflate their rating. When held to a standard, they tend to deflate their rating.

Try playing 4.5 tourneys ... and get out there on those drills. You'll recover most of your previous form.

- KK

 

[tykrum]

Not sure where you are, but my experience has been that 4.5 leagues are much more competitive than 4.5 tournaments and the same with 5.0 leagues.

Completely agree with that. A very highly ranked 4.5 tournament player here has won less than 40% of his matches in the 4.5/5.0 league that I've joined. I would recommend playing some players in a 4.5 league or even joining a league, and then still trying to play 5.0/open tournaments.

 

[kumat63]

Thanks all for the very helpful responses--especially the link to the experienced players guide. Don't know how I missed it before, but it does answer my questions. I'll look for a 4.5 league and see how that goes. I was also playing maybe once a week when I tried the open tournament and clearly that's not enough preparation for any tournament play. Maybe a more rigorous prep. schedule will give me better results in open play next time around.

I'm sure there are exceptions, but it's still hard for me to see how a 25 year old 5.0 will not always have a huge advantage over a 42 year old 5.0 (even if that 42 year old never took 15 years off). At that level, everyone hits the ball fine, it's all who gets to the most balls and who can hit the most winners. I can see the need to catch sandbaggers, but really that rating table seems to seriously under-rate the advantage youth and speed gives compared to the guile and muscle-memory gained from 20-years-ago tournament experience. Take a physcially fit 25 year old playing 3-4 times a week, who played for a good high school program but no college playing: he could rate 4.5 according to the table (I've run into one of those), but I seriously doubt many 40+ ex-college players (5.0 according to the table) would actually beat such a player in a tournament.

I suppose if you played a smash and bash game at the D.I level in the early 80's (not the most prevalent style that I saw either, except for maybe the top singles guy or the number 2) you could give the youngsters more trouble than an old "pusher" like me. But still, look how crucial youth and speed are at the pro level! How many 42 year olds are there in the main singles draw at a typical ATP Tour event? Right, now I don't think youth or speed is really any less of an edge at the 5.0 game than 7.0, and I'm not sure that table takes that realistically into account...

Maybe the tournaments and players in my area are exceptions (my experience has been limited, I admit), but I'm not seeing players much over 30 (much less over 40) in the open and 5.0 divisions in my area... it's been all 20 somethings so far that I have seen.

 

[Geezer Guy]

The guidelines are there to help ensure you enter the NTRP leagues and tournaments at the appropriate level. Once you've entered the system and play regularly, your win-loss record over time will move you to the correct level.

 

[cak]

Maybe the tournaments and players in my area are exceptions (my experience has been limited, I admit), but I'm not seeing players much over 30 (much less over 40) in the open and 5.0 divisions in my area... it's been all 20 somethings so far that I have seen.

Well, you have a few years to stabilize your rating, but once you hit 50 you can play senior leagues. Also, you play at a high enough level that you might seek out the tournament that go by age divisions, rather than NTRP. If there aren't many guys in their mid 40s playing 5.0 then you would do well in a 40 and over division.

 

[kumat63]

cak:

I think that's the best plan--I've heard of a few tournaments (not in my town, but within a couple hours drive) that are age-grouped rather than NTRP grouped. I think you're right that's probably where I'd find the most enjoyable competition. It's fun to hit with the 20 somethings, don't get me wrong--my favorite hitting partner is a 26 year old 5.0 guy (former collegiate player as well) and we have a good time hitting and doing drills, but I really can't push him hard enough when we play points for it to be much fun for him, so we don't get out too much together.

The guidelines are sort of tough for a player in my spot. I want to be honest (I hate losing bets on the golf course to the "10 handicap" who shoots 74) and I suppose honesty requires me to rate myself at 5.0, but I haven't seen much evidence so far that I can play enjoyably at that level locally, dominated here as it is by players much younger than myself, but I also don't want to get complaints (which would have some legitimacy it seems) from members in a 4.5 league should I have good results.

My 26 year old 5.0 sometime hitting partner played a 4.5 ladder when he moved to town and got kicked off at the end of the season. He's better than me, and I don't think I'd generate the same level of complaining as he did, but I don't want to even appear to be a sandbagger or misrepresent myself. My young 5.0 friend also complains it is hard to find people to play. He's finally hooked up with a couple local teaching pros and a former top ten ranked D.I woman (also in her 20s). But I really can't hang with those players myself, so it's sort of frustrating looking for a good game. We have a private club in town where my son plays the junior program and I suspect I'd find some good competition there, but I honestly can't afford the dues to join right now, so I'll keep looking for other opportunities.

Thanks again for helping me understand the situation better, very kind of all of you to take the time!

 

[Kaptain Karl]

I'm sure there are exceptions, but it's still hard for me to see how a 25 year old 5.0 will not always have a huge advantage over a 42 year old 5.0 (even if that 42 year old never took 15 years off). At that level, everyone hits the ball fine, it's all who gets to the most balls and who can hit the most winners.

I'm a 5.0+ who is 49. For one single match I can hold my own against the players under 30, but...

... I'm not seeing players much over 30 (much less over 40) in the open and 5.0 divisions in my area... it's been all 20 somethings so far that I have seen.

The problem is my *recovery time* is so much longer. The Open tourneys expect you to play at least twice a day. I could see me winning respectably in the First Round ... and losing miserably in the Second, just two hours later(!).

The Seniors tourneys only rarely make me play twice a day. Since I have other obligations and responsibilities (business, family, etc.) and the physical toll of playing Opens would negatively impact those duties ... I play the Mens 50. It's the better balanced way to get good competition.

- KK

 

[atatu]

I'm a 5.0+ who is 49. For one single match I can hold my own against the players under 30, but...

Like the Toby Keith song says "I ain't as good as I once was, but I'm as good, once, as I ever was...."

 

[Kaptain Karl]

Like the Toby Keith song says "I ain't as good as I once was, but I'm as good, once, as I ever was...."

[KK goes in search of his new theme song....] Thanks, atatu.

- KK

 

[BaselDazzle]

Hey kumat, here's an interesting way of looking at these ratings:

http://www.mens tennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=2386212&postcount=4

Enjoy your return to tennis!

Mod Edit(kk, noelle, tw staff): I guess I shouldn't really be pimping another tennis forum on here. How do I modify my link so that it just says link but still takes you where you want it to go? If you do it, I'd be grateful. Also if you could edit out this edit, I give you my permission!

 

[kumat63]

Hey kumat, here's an interesting way of looking at these ratings:

http://www.mens tennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=2386212&postcount=4

Enjoy your return to tennis!

Mod Edit(kk, noelle, tw staff): I guess I shouldn't really be pimping another tennis forum on here. How do I modify my link so that it just says link but still takes you where you want it to go? If you do it, I'd be grateful. Also if you could edit out this edit, I give you my permission!

Now, that is the best way of looking at it! The truest explanation of the ratings I've seen. It really is all about finding a regular game that doesn't make us feel like we stink, isn't it?