NTRP Ratings: Is USTA Losing the Script?

[spew]

USTA has long kept your actual rating secret, the only thing you know is that at the beginning of the year you were bucketed into one of the large groups of players, be it 3.5 or 4.0, etc. I think a lot of the rationale was that keeping the ratings secret would prevent players from easily gaming the system. In addition, it added a bit of mystery as to which players are the 'best' on the team, who should play in a playoff match, etc.

Sites like tennisrecord.com do a decent job of reverse engineering the NTRP formula and new rating systems like UTR are completely transparent. Almost all USTA captains take advantage of tennisrecord to plan their lineups and effectively your tennisrecord rating is your dynamic rating within the year.

The question I ask is, if USTA continues down this road of being opaque, are they in danger of fading in relevance? Can UTR become the new standard? Do most people consider tennisrecord to be, effectively, your in-season rating? If USTA doesn't make each players true rating public, why not at least give players access to their own true rating and cut out the influence importance of a site like tennisrecord?

 

[johnmccabe]

They think transparency doesn't maximize participation in the sport? Or maybe their dynamic rating system does have something weird that they don't want everyone to know about?

 

[badmice2]

They’re adopting WTN for this purpose. I think for one they’re trying to counter UTR, but likely also trying to move away from NTRP rating altogether. You have to remember that NTRP doesn’t not go down if you don’t play; whereas UtR and WTN is a dynamic rating based in match score and relevancy.

 

[silverwyvern4]

UTR was nice until they started missing over 50 percent of match results since last December

 

[PK6]

USTA is already irrelevant.

 

[Creighton]

The question I ask is, if USTA continues down this road of being opaque, are they in danger of fading in relevance? Can UTR become the new standard?

No. It's not the rating that matters. It's that the USTA leagues are the most popular. People only care about TR because it helps them in the USTA leagues.

Unless UTR or some other service can create better advancing leagues, USTA doesn't have to worry about anything.

 

[Purestriker]

USTA has long kept your actual rating secret, the only thing you know is that at the beginning of the year you were bucketed into one of the large groups of players, be it 3.5 or 4.0, etc. I think a lot of the rationale was that keeping the ratings secret would prevent players from easily gaming the system. In addition, it added a bit of mystery as to which players are the 'best' on the team, who should play in a playoff match, etc.

Sites like tennisrecord.com do a decent job of reverse engineering the NTRP formula and new rating systems like UTR are completely transparent. Almost all USTA captains take advantage of tennisrecord to plan their lineups and effectively your tennisrecord rating is your dynamic rating within the year.

The question I ask is, if USTA continues down this road of being opaque, are they in danger of fading in relevance? Can UTR become the new standard? Do most people consider tennisrecord to be, effectively, your in-season rating? If USTA doesn't make each players true rating public, why not at least give players access to their own true rating and cut out the influence importance of a site like tennisrecord?

The key is to have better players on your team than the other teams. Then those sites and ratings don't really matter. I haven't looked at tennis league stats, or record in a long time. Don't have too.

Also, UTR does not work as well unless your playing matches weekly and it does not work great for mixed.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

USTA has long kept your actual rating secret, the only thing you know is that at the beginning of the year you were bucketed into one of the large groups of players, be it 3.5 or 4.0, etc. I think a lot of the rationale was that keeping the ratings secret would prevent players from easily gaming the system. In addition, it added a bit of mystery as to which players are the 'best' on the team, who should play in a playoff match, etc.

Sites like tennisrecord.com do a decent job of reverse engineering the NTRP formula and new rating systems like UTR are completely transparent. Almost all USTA captains take advantage of tennisrecord to plan their lineups and effectively your tennisrecord rating is your dynamic rating within the year.

The question I ask is, if USTA continues down this road of being opaque, are they in danger of fading in relevance? Can UTR become the new standard? Do most people consider tennisrecord to be, effectively, your in-season rating? If USTA doesn't make each players true rating public, why not at least give players access to their own true rating and cut out the influence importance of a site like tennisrecord?

Well this post was only posted today and it is already not aging well. UTR is over basically. TR is trying hard, but they do not organize leagues, so it is no threat to USTA.

Here’s the thing. No one really cares that much about winning any league other than USTA. It’s the official benchmark league in the United States. As listed above, it is the most popular. Even other leagues try to copy the benchmarks (this league is for 4.5’s, etc). UTR is limited by the fact that it can’t scape the USTA site anymore and the data is not up to date or accurate.

 

[denoted]

UTR, owned by Oracle, as I remember, almost certainly 'can' scrape the site. Scraping the site is trivial technically, which is why TR, etc. are able to do it. They are choosing not to, which is likely based on a legal calculation.

 

[time_fly]

TR is trying hard, but they do not organize leagues, so it is no threat to USTA.

TR is definitely on USTA’s radar, because it creates huge headaches for league coordinators who are constantly dealing with players who don’t really understand the TR rating versus USTA and why they are different. At our captains‘ meeting this year the USTA rep was telling stories of teams that choose players and reject players based on their TR rating estimate, and I know some of our ladies’ captains use their ratings for creating lineups. That said, the actual business impact is low so I don’t know how much USTA will bother to do to solve the problem. If I were to propose a solution to USTA, I would say build a site just like TR but displaying USTA’s own new WTN ratings instead. To me, the TR estimate is interesting but the organization and navigation of player, team, and match data is the real draw.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

UTR was nice until they started missing over 50 percent of match results since last December

Well this post was only posted today and it is already not aging well. UTR is over basically. TR is trying hard, but they do not organize leagues, so it is no threat to USTA.

Here’s the thing. No one really cares that much about winning any league other than USTA. It’s the official benchmark league in the United States. As listed above, it is the most popular. Even other leagues try to copy the benchmarks (this league is for 4.5’s, etc). UTR is limited by the fact that it can’t scape the USTA site anymore and the data is not up to date or accurate.

UTR, owned by Oracle, as I remember, almost certainly 'can' scrape the site. Scraping the site is trivial technically, which is why TR, etc. are able to do it. They are choosing not to, which is likely based on a legal calculation.

I am so confused, there is nothing unusual about me other than being on multiple teams in 2 sections and 3 states, but UTR has constantly scraped my matches including 4 USTA matches I've had in the past 5 days with results appearing overnight, as in even if a match finishes at 10pm, it's there on UTR the next morning. Same for every match since UTR started. I know about 5-maybe a maximum of 20 here have said it isn't scraping matches, but I'm leaning toward that being the exception, not the norm. No one in my tennis circle has mentioned this issue with UTR.

I don't care if UTR is over or not, but it's not for the near future , too much money behind it and it's ingrained in a lot of tournaments above the rec level, for now. Could be over in 5 years, but if the competitor is the USTA, wouldn't any business owner like a competitor as inept as USTA and NTRP? Lol, I would, that's a slam dunk win.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

TR is definitely on USTA’s radar, because it creates huge headaches for league coordinators who are constantly dealing with players who don’t really understand the TR rating versus USTA and why they are different. At our captains‘ meeting this year the USTA rep was telling stories of teams that choose players and reject players based on their TR rating estimate, and I know some of our ladies’ captains use their ratings for creating lineups. That said, the actual business impact is low so I don’t know how much USTA will bother to do to solve the problem. If I were to propose a solution to USTA, I would say build a site just like TR but displaying USTA’s own new WTN ratings instead. To me, the TR estimate is interesting but the organization and navigation of player, team, and match data is the real draw.

Lol I can only imagine what a meeting like that entails, what a nightmare to listen to the problems of mixed doubles and 3.0 tennis lol. I don't think USTA can do much or wants to, it's kind of a little bit like government where the local leagues and people that bother to volunteer or get elected make the rules for each section. Men are usually the laziest to act and in my time with USTA we've been oppressed with rules voted in byy ladies and older men like no matches in the sun or heat.

 

[Purestriker]

TR is definitely on USTA’s radar, because it creates huge headaches for league coordinators who are constantly dealing with players who don’t really understand the TR rating versus USTA and why they are different. At our captains‘ meeting this year the USTA rep was telling stories of teams that choose players and reject players based on their TR rating estimate, and I know some of our ladies’ captains use their ratings for creating lineups. That said, the actual business impact is low so I don’t know how much USTA will bother to do to solve the problem. If I were to propose a solution to USTA, I would say build a site just like TR but displaying USTA’s own new WTN ratings instead. To me, the TR estimate is interesting but the organization and navigation of player, team, and match data is the real draw.

Your section sounds like a hot mess.

 

[Purestriker]

Lol I can only imagine what a meeting like that entails, what a nightmare to listen to the problems of mixed doubles and 3.0 tennis lol. I don't think USTA can do much or wants to, it's kind of a little bit like government where the local leagues and people that bother to volunteer or get elected make the rules for each section. Men are usually the laziest to act and in my time with USTA we've been oppressed with rules voted in byy ladies and older men like no matches in the sun or heat.

That is absurd. Our state championships are always in late June and it will be no less than 100 and brutal humidity. We wouldn't play if we had those rules.

 

[ChrisJR3264]

I won’t join a usta league anytime soon.
Played in a different Rec league for doubles that was 4.5 level against the eventual winners of that league. They wanted me and my doubs partner to join their usta 3.5 team. The level of tennis that was played - was clearly not 3.5 level and a few folks who play usta have said players are playing down a level.

 

[PK6]

I won’t join a usta league anytime soon.
Played in a different Rec league for doubles that was 4.5 level against the eventual winners of that league. They wanted me and my doubs partner to join their usta 3.5 team. The level of tennis that was played - was clearly not 3.5 level and a few folks who play usta have said players are playing down a level.

Exactly!!! This is cheating and sandbagging at irs worst!!! These players need ti be banned forever from playing USTA. That’s why I hate the USTA with a passion and like you won’t ever play tennis again

 

[ChrisJR3264]

Exactly!!! This is cheating and sandbagging at irs worst!!! These players need ti be banned forever from playing USTA. That’s why I hate the USTA with a passion and like you won’t ever play tennis again

Yeah I’d much prefer to win while improving my game or lose while improving my game at my level in said tourneys or leagues.

I have some friends I’ve met in a new city that are 3.5 and don’t mind playing with them. I always find it better for me personally to play up to see where I can improve.

But in leagues , sand bagging isn’t right. Agreed.

 

[PK6]

USTA league matches are the devil!!!

 

[Purestriker]

Yeah I’d much prefer to win while improving my game or lose while improving my game at my level in said tourneys or leagues.

I have some friends I’ve met in a new city that are 3.5 and don’t mind playing with them. I always find it better for me personally to play up to see where I can improve.

But in leagues , sand bagging isn’t right. Agreed.

You could just play 4.5.

Also, if every team is doing this (they are) then it isn't sand bagging. Its just a leveling issue.

 

[ChrisJR3264]

You could just play 4.5.

Also, if every team is doing this (they are) then it isn't sand bagging. Its just a leveling issue.

I mean what if you have 5.0's sandbagging and playing 4.5?

 

[Purestriker]

I mean what if you have 5.0's sandbagging and playing 4.5?

You would be playing up...just like you wanted.

 

[ChrisJR3264]

You would be playing up...just like you wanted.

In playing matches time to time? Sure. But in a paid league - you should play at your level. So no - sandbagging isn't appropriate.

 

[Purestriker]

In playing matches time to time? Sure. But in a paid league - you should play at your level. So no - sandbagging isn't appropriate.

I think the issue is that if everyone (which they are) is that the level, then that is the level. It is not sandbagging. You are just not a 4.5 in that market.

 

[travlerajm]

USTA league matches are the devil!!!

Losing a usta match really isn’t that bad, and the number of sandbaggers is pretty low %. Your distaste for usta league probably just means you are playing in a league at a higher ntrp level than your level.

 

[Purestriker]

Losing a usta match really isn’t that bad, and the number of sandbaggers is pretty low %. Your distaste for usta league probably just means you are playing in a league at a higher ntrp level than your level.

This!!!!

 

[ChrisJR3264]

I think the issue is that if everyone (which they are) is that the level, then that is the level. It is not sandbagging. You are just not a 4.5 in that market.

Lol what market is this? Love to hear ….

 

[Purestriker]

Lol what market is this? Love to hear ….

Southern section. But I have played tennis everywhere and I don't see major issues. I think you might have an overinflated idea of your rating.

 

[ChrisJR3264]

Southern section. But I have played tennis everywhere and I don't see major issues. I think you might have an overinflated idea of your rating.

Lol ok.
Yeah- has nothing to do with usta travel /time/money spent to take a risk? I played ustas in high school (tourneys) so I am not familiar with how usta team sandbagging goes. My only experience is the folks who self admitted they did it. So I’m assuming it can be done elsewhere?

And I’m not self proclaiming anything lol. I wouldn’t play up or down in a league bc it’s not entirely enjoyable getting beat constantly by 5.0s or beating 3.5 and 4.0s. But yeah.

Shocking to hear you think lowly of the southeast states in the us. Mostly migrants from NY, CA - especially in Florida.

 

[ChaelAZ]

I mean, there are plenty of resources to see how rating differences are calculated for both singles and doubles, and then how based on standard outcome spreads those differences add or subtract to each players current rating. I still beleive there is some larger grouping pencil'd in shifts based on what the USTA wants to to do for more even distribution in certain levels each year, or at least every few years. All to keep cash flow going, which if you look at the average revenue of the UTSA at around $300 million per year, is comparable to the top baseball team's revenue and well ahead of most. Yet...rec league are what they are. But I digress...

 

[travlerajm]

This issue keeps coming up. The ntrp rating buckets have overlap at the boundaries.

The top 20% of the 4.5 league is the same level as the bottom 20% of the 5.0 league, and the bottom 20% of the 4.5 league is the same level as the top 20% of the 4.0 league.

If you are in a 4.5 league and get crushed by someone who is in that top 20%, you can view it as getting beaten by a sandbagger who should be playing 5.0. Or you can simply view it as losing to someone who is at the upper edge of the bucket.

The former view might be better for the ego, but the latter is better for your stress level because then you realize that we are all just out there playing league tennis for fun and exercise.

 

[time_fly]

I think the issue is that if everyone (which they are) is that the level, then that is the level. It is not sandbagging. You are just not a 4.5 in that market.

Exactly. I have a 4.0 rating and have had it for many years … when I drop in at a club or vacation spot and get a quick evaluation to help me jump into a group. I’m a USTA 3.5. I tell almost everyone who is thinking about joining a USTA team at our club to take their pro evaluation rating and drop it by 0.5 when they sign up. It’s also well known that unofficial “NTRP” tournaments are filled with players who would get creamed in league play at the level where they play in the tournament.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

There are not 4.5 skill level players out there habitually sandbagging in 3.5 leagues. That is simply not the case. They may “feel” like 4.5’s to you, as it is hard to estimate someone’s level vs other opponents when they are that much better than you.

Bottom line: you are what your match record says you are vs the opponents normalized for the distribution of players at that level. This is determined by peer group wins, not by how pretty your strokes look. If there were a lot of former D1 players out there sandbagging at 3.5, then guess what? That is the new definition of 3.5 and it may not include you. However, this is not happening. So it’s not really something to worry about.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

You could just play 4.5.

Also, if every team is doing this (they are) then it isn't sand bagging. Its just a leveling issue.

I mean what if you have 5.0's sandbagging and playing 4.5?

Usually it's 2 teams per city/region before post season play that are full sandbagging, sometimes it's 2 out of 20 teams, sometimes it is 2 out of 6 teams, but usually it takes an aggressive captain to organize it and there aren't that many of those per area to go around.

There are few 5.0 players sandbagging to 4.5 where a region has actual 5.0 teams. But, I don't blame those who tank to 4.5 because there is absolutely zero 5.0 play where they live. They usually aren't forming super teams, they just want to play on a team and they don't ruin ot for the other 4.5 players. Usually people that skilled aren't chasing USTA glory at all costs.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

I am so confused, there is nothing unusual about me other than being on multiple teams in 2 sections and 3 states, but UTR has constantly scraped my matches including 4 USTA matches I've had in the past 5 days with results appearing overnight, as in even if a match finishes at 10pm, it's there on UTR the next morning. Same for every match since UTR started. I know about 5-maybe a maximum of 20 here have said it isn't scraping matches, but I'm leaning toward that being the exception, not the norm. No one in my tennis circle has mentioned this issue with UTR.

I don't care if UTR is over or not, but it's not for the near future , too much money behind it and it's ingrained in a lot of tournaments above the rec level, for now. Could be over in 5 years, but if the competitor is the USTA, wouldn't any business owner like a competitor as inept as USTA and NTRP? Lol, I would, that's a slam dunk win.

UTR scrapes less than half of my USTA matches from the USTA site. This has been an issue for about 6 months now.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

UTR scrapes less than half of my USTA matches from the USTA site. This has been an issue for about 6 months now.

I believe you, I wonder why? For me it's a 24 hour turn around period. We may never know why lol.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

I believe you, I wonder why? For me it's a 24 hour turn around period. We may never know why lol.

Not really sure either. But we cannot use UTR in my local area for anything reliable. TR is not perfect, but way more useful for us.

 

[Purestriker]

Lol ok.
Yeah- has nothing to do with usta travel /time/money spent to take a risk? I played ustas in high school (tourneys) so I am not familiar with how usta team sandbagging goes. My only experience is the folks who self admitted they did it. So I’m assuming it can be done elsewhere?

And I’m not self proclaiming anything lol. I wouldn’t play up or down in a league bc it’s not entirely enjoyable getting beat constantly by 5.0s or beating 3.5 and 4.0s. But yeah.

Shocking to hear you think lowly of the southeast states in the us. Mostly migrants from NY, CA - especially in Florida.

I don't think lowly of the southern states, that is where I am. I am saying I don't think you are as good as you think you are.

 

[Creighton]

I believe you, I wonder why? For me it's a 24 hour turn around period. We may never know why lol.

That's how most of mine have been lately. However, it randomly didn't pick up one of my 8.0 matches.

 

[cks]

The top 20% of the 4.5 league is the same level as the bottom 20% of the 5.0 league, and the bottom 20% of the 4.5 league is the same level as the top 20% of the 4.0 league.

Interesting. I've never thought about the NTRP bands like this, but it does make sense.

I'm newish to USTA league playing, starting in JAN 2022. I've played both men's 3.0 and 3.5. In my mind, I break down the players into smaller buckets as high, mid, or low. That is to say, you would might be a low 3.5, mid 3.5 or high 3.5. Or a low 3.0, mid 3.0, or high 3.0.

 

[ChrisJR3264]

I don't think lowly of the southern states, that is where I am. I am saying I don't think you are as good as you think you are.

So how good do you think I am? Lol.

 

[Purestriker]

So how good do you think I am? Lol.

No idea. But if you think you would lose to 3.5's then you're probably a lower end 3.5 or 3.0. You would have to pay $40 to find out.

 

[ChrisJR3264]

No idea. But if you think you would lose to 3.5's then you're probably a lower end 3.5 or 3.0. You would have to pay $40 to find out.

Aww interesting. Didn’t know d2 college players were 3.0 beginners …. Tell me more oh great ball striker ?

The fact you refuse to believe people play below their level in usta is beyond me. Agree not all do so. But yes it happens

 

[drivophd]

Aww interesting. Didn’t know d2 college players were 3.0 beginners …. Tell me more oh great ball striker ?

The fact you refuse to believe people play below their level in usta is beyond me. Agree not all do so. But yes it happens

Saying you played college tennis doesn’t mean much in a vacuum because there’s such a wide spectrum. I know former D3 players ranging all the way from 3.0 - 5.5.

 

[ChrisJR3264]

Saying you played college tennis doesn’t mean much in a vacuum because there’s such a wide spectrum. I know former D3 players ranging all the way from 3.0 - 5.5.

Idk if I’ve ever met a d3 or d2 player below A 4. Maybe club level /gym extra curricular activities sure. But newbies start at what a 2.5 ? Calling someone a 3.0 who’s played competitively for years is uneducated

 

[Power Player]

I know multiple guys who got bumped to 4.5 and 5.0 and simply stopped playing USTA and appealed down each year. After a year or 2 off, they were able to play down again. The reason is not nefarious, they just want to play with their group of friends.

 

[Creighton]

I know multiple guys who got bumped to 4.5 and 5.0 and simply stopped playing USTA and appealed down each year. After a year or 2 off, they were able to play down again. The reason is not nefarious, they just want to play with their group of friends.

Did their friend group just happen to always win?

 

[Power Player]

Did their friend group just happen to always win?

No they were competitive each year but these guys are all actual friends. Its not just about chasing usta ratings or whatever.

 

[Purestriker]

Aww interesting. Didn’t know d2 college players were 3.0 beginners …. Tell me more oh great ball striker ?

The fact you refuse to believe people play below their level in usta is beyond me. Agree not all do so. But yes it happens

Then you shouldn’t be so afraid to play 4.5.

 

[jmnk]

No they were competitive each year but these guys are all actual friends. Its not just about chasing usta ratings or whatever.

you know, there's an easy solution for 'just trying to play with group of friends'. They _all_ could play at a level of those higher skilled friends.. I mean they would not win much as a team I suppose - but since this is "

not just about chasing usta ratings or whatever."

then they wouldn't care, right?

 

[Power Player]

you know, there's an easy solution for 'just trying to play with group of friends'. They _all_ could play at a level of those higher skilled friends.. I mean they would not win much as a team I suppose - but since this is "


then they wouldn't care, right?

I have no idea. I’ll be sure to bring it up to them and let them know some random on the internet is triggered. That should do the trick. Thanks!