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NTRP Ratings: Is USTA Losing the Script?
- Thread starter spew
- Start date
Top D3 schools are legit, but the vast majority are effectively a continuation of average high school tennis, dinking and all.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
High school dink tennis is legit tennis too.
PBODY99
Legend
Computting power was far more costly when the USTA rating system started. Now thanks to Moore's Law it should be possible to give each player a rating for each disipline, or at least singles & doubles. Below 4.5, many players are a 1/2 piont better in one than the other. in my experience.
ChrisJR3264
Hall of Fame
Makes sense. I find usta just too time consuming and having to be available.
I'm not afraid to play 4.5 lol. I play many leagues in 4.5 level. Just don't care to play USTA's
GrassCourtFan
Legend
I do have the impressions that most other leagues inflate ratings relative to USTA. In USTA I'm mid-range 4.5 (definitely nowhere near being bumped up), but there's a few other leagues I've played, and though they generally look like they align ratings to USTA, the numbers end up being higher. I was bumped up to 5.5 in one (and the level of play was about mid-range USTA 4.5), I've been at the top of a few leagues that are listed as "4.5" when compare to USTA they're really not.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
I think usta leagues have forces acting that depress ratings (captains pushing new recruits to self-rate low), while other leagues might have forces pushing the opposite direction (players wanting to believe they are good).
Purestriker
Legend
Perfect. Then no reason to complain about leagues and ratings.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
WYK
Hall of Fame
The USTA knows something most of you don't know.
It doesn't matter.
What matters is they spread the popularity of the sport.
Your ranking is just a carrot for you, it's mostly a means of regulation for the USTA.
It doesn't matter who wins or who loses so long as the events go on.
It doesn't matter.
What matters is they spread the popularity of the sport.
Your ranking is just a carrot for you, it's mostly a means of regulation for the USTA.
It doesn't matter who wins or who loses so long as the events go on.
WYK
Hall of Fame
It primaries as this.
If people understood they were playing brackets, they would realise there is no such a thing as competition, nor sandbagging or over rating.
In fact, they complain the most when they have a real competitive match on their hands.
What pisses me off is I’ve been scrutinized for wanting to win/being too competitive caring more about that than other peoples feelings-whatever!!! I’ve spent thousands thousands thousands of dollars to get better with private lessons with the pros/doing foot work drills only to have stupid dumb ass female tell me this as well spending too much money-f—k her!!! Her stupid tennis socials ruined my bodybuilding physique/got me fat. Plus she was weird/goofy. Needless to say that’s the reason I quit playing. Apologies for mindless past negative posts over the years. That’s not right of my part. Please accept my apologies. Thank you!!!
time_fly
Hall of Fame
Yup, then you die and your rating really doesn’t matter. The sun will expand into a red giant someday and consume the earth, so the planet doesn’t matter, and eventually the universe will die — heat death is the prevailing theory today although they can’t rule out gravitational collapse into a massive singularity. Anyway, I just really want to get to 4.0.
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
I am 4.5 level but refuse to play USTA = I’m not like other girls
Lol
Lol
ChrisJR3264
Hall of Fame
Not complaining. My point was 4.5 players in multiple leagues and the level was clearly there - claiming they play usta 3.5. That’s my experience in terms of questioning legitimacy of how usta allows players to play down a league in doubles.
cks
Hall of Fame
Trust, but verify.
I've run into plenty of players making statements about "their rating". I've since learn to just go and look them up on tennislink and the usta site. That way you can find out if they are computer rated or not.
ChrisJR3264
Hall of Fame
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
There are 2 types that do not need to play USTA leagues to know how good they are. One type has ATP points. The other type thinks they are “about 4.5 level” but are really 3.5 level. Which one are you?
Purestriker
Legend
I will!!! Rather have muscles instead of being fat out shape playing in rigged corrupt USTA leagues
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
PurcellPower
Rookie
I fail to see how playing USTA leagues, makes you eat terribly and get fat. Sounds like a self control issue to me, but at this time, we have to concede that accountability is a thing of the past. It's always someone else's fault.
It does with meaningless tennis birthday socials after league at 9pm-you can’t lose weight if you eat drink that late you just can’t!!! Same with going out after matches-1.5 hour match shouldn’t turn into a 5+hour event afterwards. 4pm match = getting home 9pm then you have to do post match foam rolling/stretching/Epsom salt bath which takes 3 hours/not getting to bed until midnight at very earliest/5:30/7pm matches are worse. So don’t give that crap you mentioned. Just stop with this!!!
PurcellPower
Rookie
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
He does have a point. I always crave the root beer float at the pub at team dinner after my usta mixed matches.
Purestriker
Legend
He could have had a nice Athletic Greens shake with them or some green tea.
cks
Hall of Fame
I tend to crave the ice cold beer after the match.
ChrisJR3264
Hall of Fame
I mean that YouTuber Winston Duke is considered a 4.5. Working to be a 5.0. Hmmm can’t say I agree. Seems more like a 4.0 trying to get to a 4.5
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
For whatever reason tennis can’t do a decent rating system. It is like tennis screws up people’s mathematical reasoning or something. WTN does ok but still decides to have a floor and ceiling, and they don’t even try to rate pro games. They also just seem to randomly assign a rating number before someone even played a single game. That in itself isn’t too bad as long as that initial rating isn’t weighted too much. But they seem to weight it heavily thus screwing up everyone’s rating.
UTR can be decent if you play at least 20 singles and 20 doubles rated matches every year.
UTR can be decent if you play at least 20 singles and 20 doubles rated matches every year.
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
What other sports have a good rating system for adult recreational players though? I feel like tennis players on this forum have unrealistic expectations for NTRP and any other rating system. Imagine what a rating system for non-professional adults would look like for football or basketball. How would you tell bad fat adult 38 year old QB from a slightly less bad fat adult 38 year old QB? You think golfers don’t fudge their handicap?
The NTRP system works fine.
The people cheating the system are the problem and any system is going to have that issue.
cks
Hall of Fame
True.
I did have "unrealistic expectations" about NTRP until I played USTA league. I'm still amazed at how wide each NTRP band can be.
cks
Hall of Fame
Agree. For me, NTRP does what is supposed to, which is to provide me mostly competitive, sometimes compatible, tennis matches. There will be outliers in any system.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
onehandbh
G.O.A.T.
I'm considering creating a new app targeted for USTA team captains and members.
It will be called:
BOO-TennisEE CALL
You just click on the button in the app at least an hour before your match and the nearest ringer will be summoned to come play for you.
I will test the app in Nasheville first.
It will be called:
BOO-TennisEE CALL
You just click on the button in the app at least an hour before your match and the nearest ringer will be summoned to come play for you.
I will test the app in Nasheville first.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Sounds like a more sustainable business model than UTR.
The people cheating need to be banned from USTA forever
“I’m just gonna take a mulligan on that one.”
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
It doesn’t work so well when you have large team sports. One or two players it works better. USTAis better than nothing at all when playing against someone I know nothing about. But even after a single set i think it is not that great at my level. I’m right at the 3.0-3.5 break. And that is where a about half of all male players fit in. So if somone says they are a 3.0c rated player or a 3.5c rated player it tells me very little. The 3.0c might be able to beat me or I might be able to bagel and breadstick them. If someone says they are 3.5 it is the same thing but the converse. I know 3.5 players who are not as good as better 3.0 players and others that are much better. Consider that when players ask to appeal up they end up staying at the higher level about 2/3s of the time. In other words people just eyeballing others is more accurate than the rating system.
time_fly
Hall of Fame
This is a slightly different problem, but in our area there’s so much intermixing between 3.5 and 4.0 that D2 and D3 courts in many 4.0 matches look the same as D1 courts at 3.5. The TR dynamic rating estimates look quite different, but we are regularly seeing 7.0 vs. 7.5 and 8.0 matchups where the lower pair wins in 4.0 matches, and then the same pair goes on to lose a 3.5 match on the same weekend against a combo that on paper are mid-range 3.5s. So I would say that at least the TR dNTRP estimates are way off; who knows about USTA. But nobody has been bumped up in our area from 3.5 in several years.
Lord Of The Strings
Rookie
my favorite is "we're playing max trips today, right?"
like, sure...whatever...you went 5 over after you took a drop and couldn't get out of that bunker, but sure...card a triple.
I'm torn on whether I think USTA should make their full ratings and algorithm transparent or not. On the one hand, it could boost confidence in their system and perhaps help improve it if people find mistakes - like the benefits of open-source software. On the other hand, I see their point about the shenanigans and manipulation that could result - maybe even worse than what already happens.
I also wonder about the psychological aspect of knowing exactly what your match score will do to your rating. Imagine going into your last match of the season and your captain telling you "if you win more than 50% of the games in this match, you are going to be bumped up beyond the appeal threshold." Is that something you really want in you head as you're playing the match? Maybe some would like knowing that, but I don't know.
I also wonder about the psychological aspect of knowing exactly what your match score will do to your rating. Imagine going into your last match of the season and your captain telling you "if you win more than 50% of the games in this match, you are going to be bumped up beyond the appeal threshold." Is that something you really want in you head as you're playing the match? Maybe some would like knowing that, but I don't know.
MrTennis
New User
I found the problem for USTA adult leagues has many layers.
1. Lots of people don't really understand the NTRP system because no one is explaining it right.
2. The self-rate system needs to be improved because cheating is only human.
3. "Professional" captains are selecting players according to their TR levels so those very high level teams are always the same people and the same captains.
4. Men like to beat up on others and many prefer sandbagging to honesty. They also self-rate too low.
5. Women like to play at higher levels than their ability. They also self-rate too high.
6. Many local league coordinators are being paid per registration. So, cheating captains with 24 teams will often be left alone and complainers will be punished.
Shall I go on?
1. Lots of people don't really understand the NTRP system because no one is explaining it right.
2. The self-rate system needs to be improved because cheating is only human.
3. "Professional" captains are selecting players according to their TR levels so those very high level teams are always the same people and the same captains.
4. Men like to beat up on others and many prefer sandbagging to honesty. They also self-rate too low.
5. Women like to play at higher levels than their ability. They also self-rate too high.
6. Many local league coordinators are being paid per registration. So, cheating captains with 24 teams will often be left alone and complainers will be punished.
Shall I go on?
MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
They actually have a NTRP self rate chart guideline that people don't seem to follow/understand such as: USTA staff, capts, & players. It's only really a problem if a player lies on the self-rate bc then that team will probs get burned but you don't even need to do that anymore as USTA states the guidelines are only a reference now and they can DQ anyone who rate honestly still if there is enough complaints.
I think a good resolution is to have an ever changing/updating self-rate chart that gets reupdated/published every year based on things that happened the previous year but they should be strict to following the self-rate guidelines just like medical/healthcare guidelines.
I havent seen much examples of cheating capts going unpunished. I don't think the capt of multiple teams make that much a diff, they just need the right evidence of actual rule-breaking
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