I'll teach you to serve if you can teach me how to track down every single ball within a 40 foot radius.
Observations From $15k Futures Event
- Thread starter Moz
- Start date
I'll teach you to serve if you can teach me how to track down every single ball within a 40 foot radius.
J
Julieta
Guest
The way the system is this is where most players end up. You really have to be rich or freakishly talented (start winning right away) to get up into the 200s and up. Or be willing to sleep in cars, train stations etc.. and grind it out. I do think that a year of travelling playing futures/sats is probably equal to four years of college play because of the constant training and practing with good players and just living tennis day in and day out. It is the best training environment. So if you can do it your game will improve by a ridiculous amount. The problems start when its after that year is up and yes you have improved but then now what because you are broke! Most of the people, wait make that all, I knew who did "well" had a lot of cash. They could stay out there for the time it took for it all to work. The travelling around is good though. A player that I knew with rich parents said that her parents told her that the travelling was an education in itself even if she didn't do that well with the tennis part, they were willing to fund it all for "life experience."
Another simplification: When rallying from the baseline, players do not go for a shot they can only hit 70% of the time. They want to be able to hit 10-20 in a row, and 70% is not a high enough success rate for that.
As soon as you try to come in to the net against them, they are happy to go for a shot that only has a 70% success rate. And then they will win more than half the points in which you come to the net. Good for them, not good for you.
You see this at all levels of tennis, by the way, not just Futures. Watch two clay courters at the French Open who seem willing to play one point for five minutes, and then see how shot selection changes when one tries to sneak into the net.
Moz
Hall of Fame
Thanks - that's interesting. Maybe you could save hard for a year and then take 2 months off and blitz as many futures as you can. If you can just write off some cash and put into a "settling future demons" fund (excuse the pun).
I'm positive you'll regret it if you don't. You now have it down on paper that you might be able to reach 400 in the world - picture yourself at 70 years of age round the bar in Florida saying "I think I could have got to about the top 400". Then every other player (regardless of standard) will say the same for themselves and you'll be pissed off because you know it was actually true for you. (Shawshank Redemption: "Didn't you know - everybody is innocent in here".)
I'll stop going on now.
Moz
Hall of Fame
Well I suppose I should add another level for the tv players - and they are bagel levels not true levels!
I have the opposite problem - at least 10 people have asked if they will be seeing me at Wimbledon next year... :roll:
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
Moz
Hall of Fame
Unfortunately they ask me in a social setting when they find out I am playing tennis rather than working...
TonLars
Professional
I'll teach you to serve if you can teach me how to track down every single ball within a 40 foot radius.
Haha, yeah Ive got placement and consistency but you definitely hit it bigger than me. I keep thinking that it would be cool if they would do a format where you have a team of two players; one is the all time server, and the other player plays the point after that, or something similar to that at least. It would be fun and benefit me alot! Id let you serve for me and I think we'd do alright
TonLars
Professional
Im motivated to try, especially reading all that, Id love to. Its all about finding the time and the means to try it. I could see if my dad would sponsor me... lol. Maybe sometime next year or the year after I could give it a go if I feel like im playing well. Unfortunately, the truth is Im starting to get a little old maybe at 25 or 26? Or not, I guess thats Fed's age, and I dont feel like im slow or weak, so maybe ill be alright.
CAM178
Hall of Fame
TonLars, heed Moz's advice. Save up for a bit, and then splurge for 2 months in '09. You owe yourself (and us as your e-cheering squad) that much. You've put a LOT of time into tennis. Don't you want to find out just HOW good you are?
My advice would be to go to a S. American country or somewhere similar. . .somewhere that is fairly cheap to live and play for the short term. And from what I understand, the draws at the events there are notoriously weak, so it's essentially free points for you. Plus, you get the cool adventure of having seen parts of the world that many people will never get to see.
Just some fodder for thought.
My advice would be to go to a S. American country or somewhere similar. . .somewhere that is fairly cheap to live and play for the short term. And from what I understand, the draws at the events there are notoriously weak, so it's essentially free points for you. Plus, you get the cool adventure of having seen parts of the world that many people will never get to see.
Just some fodder for thought.
futuretoptenner
Semi-Pro
I love your attitude , It's quite inspiring. Bottle it and sell it.
25/26 is not old at all. The reason players burn out on the tour is the length of time they've been on the tour. You'll be as fresh as any of the 21/22 year old's if you did happen to make it on the tour (or at least try). Good Luck. We're all rooting for you if you do go for it.
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
i think their motivations are rather different.
a large part of moz's drive come from the fear of regret.
tonlars knows exactly where he stands in the tennis universe. he has nothing to prove. he has max out his potential. there is nothing to regret. unless he has ton of cash to blow, whats the point?
Moz
Hall of Fame
I don't want to be one of those people saying "if only" - even if I am having a go far too late. So you are correct. But it's all about trying to maximise your potential so the motivation would be the same as Tony's (I suspect).
With regards to your other points, he doesn't know exactly where he stands in the tennis universe - he only has a reasonable idea, the reality could be very different (positively or negatively). If he hasn't had consistent and prolonged exposure to futures events etc he certainly hasn't maxed his potential. There is a huge difference in looking back thinking you could have been top 400 although you never actually got any ATP points and actually looking back pointing at a chart saying - there "I was ranked 380 in 6th July 2009".
If you want to look at in cash terms. If he wants to pursue a career in coaching an ATP ranking is likely to enable him to charge a little more and open doors that may not exist. Perhaps he is interested in being a playing coach for the ATP or WTA. Alot easier to get into if you have the credibility of an ATP ranking.
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
i disagree with that
players 400-1000 are almost equal in ability. i think tony has confirmed this in the past. on any given day, anyone can win. players with better rankings simply are the ones with resources to play more tournaments.
he has beaten and lost to player in the 400s. his ncaa and open recorded are cemented on the net forever. in a best 2 out of three, u cannot fluke win against 400 player. he knows he belongs. there is nothing unresolved. nothing to dispute. nothing to wonder about.
but only tony knows
Topaz
Legend
What you say about Tony, and what he says himself seem to be a bit at odds.
Moz isn't disputing Tony's play or record at all...in fact, he is encouraging and supporting him. While you, on the other hand, seem to be doing the exact opposite?
TonLars
Professional
Thanks for the advice Cam that definitely would be alot of fun. Hopefully there would be a string of events in that area over a period of time.
This is right in a way but not completely. As I said, I feel that it is extremely difficult to get into the level where you are making money playing tennis, and so to try this out in a way would be a big expense for seeing out what I already knew. In reality I understand im not good enough to make it to that point even if I were at my full poetntial most likely. At the same time though, I know I havent maxed out my ability and I feel I could be a fair amount better if I had better training resources and better players to hit with and such. I also have not played many of these Futures tournaments, and it was quite a while ago when I did a couple. I know I can play with and beat alot of those players since Ive been having good results lately. I would possibly regret not having reached my highest potential, or not taken a shot at some Futures to challenge myself and see how I would perform
This is true for sure. That hitting partner/ playing coach thing is something that would GREATLY interest me. But I have no idea how or who to talk with to get into that. If I could simply be a hitting partner for good players all day it would be a dream job. If anyone knows where or how to get into this please let me know!
I can imagine it now.
"So TonLars, how did you win the U.S. Open?!" "Well, there was this guy on Tennis Warehouse you see...."
it would be quite enjoyable. You should give it a try, maybe during the summer.
Haha, thats funny! Its fun to dream though. At the very least I would like to play some now that my wrist is healed and Im playing well again. Not sure how its going to work but we'll see. What it comes down to with what Moz and pushing are saying, is that I know I can play these guys but I havent really taken a chance at it. I dont expect to do anything amazing but I am confident I could get points and a ranking if I played for a while. Its hard to decide whether that experience would be worth the expense.
roc17355
Rookie
Would have to agree here, I know plenty of guys who picked up tennis late in life but grew up playing collegiate athletics in other sports and they always pick up the game quickly and have an inherent advantage over someone else who didnt play other sports. Like you said earlier all sport teaches hand eye coordination, footwork, balance etc.
I also like to make the comparison to golf. I played in college and was a fairly decent player but even to go watch some of the small tour events on the Hooters or the Trangle Tour in the Raleigh-Durham area, it was remarkable to see how much better those guys were. They just killed the ball and were very consistent. No matter how bad of a shot they hit they never took more than a bogey. I think the main difference between pros and amateurs in sport is consistency and limiting mistakes.
J
Julieta
Guest
You do have the best attitude.
I think Tony should go out there. But it may take him years to get to 400s unless he gets a lucky break and can get a wild card into a big tournament (not likely unless he's rich and well-connected). Just as one example, a guy I know spent a year on the tour and the highest he got in that year was 850 or so. He played a mixture of futures, some weak and some strong (he didn't have too many in which he was DA into main draw, most he had to go through qualies) and a couple of challengers he was lucky enough to get into. I think he won one of the USTA open nationals (this guy was good) so he got a wild card. He had a huge win at Aptos over a guy in the 300s. With all of that, he wasn't anywhere close to 400s at the end of the year.
What Tony should do though is go just for the experience and to see how he does. If he were to do well, then he can adjust his plans. If he does it though he can't do something like play USTA 5.0 league and a few opens in his area and expect to go out there and do well. What he should do is plan to spend a month in France playing opens and tournaments to get really tough and then go out and play some futures after that. France will make him tough by playing a couple of tournaments per week and it can be very low cost if you are a good player. He could get housing and stuff like that. Because in the futures if he plays someone who is equal ability but is seasoned (e.g. has been playing futures) the seasoned guy has the upper hand. Something happens to players when its the pros. He could play the same guy in an open and take more games off him but when its a futures, these guys dont screw around. In any case he'd have a few good stories to tell his kids! And as you say, even if he only got one point that would help his coaching resume. Especially where he lives where it is less common to have futures experience. He's also not too old but that's easy for us to say at 35+!!!
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
come on people
pool your money together
sponsor him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5414 active members. $10 each.
$54140
good luck tony
when u come up to ontario, i want a hit
every city you stop at, you do a clinic for the donors.
pool your money together
sponsor him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5414 active members. $10 each.
$54140
good luck tony
when u come up to ontario, i want a hit
every city you stop at, you do a clinic for the donors.
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The fact of the matter is that just about wherever you are in the US, you're probably within a five-hour drive of a futures tournament... and more than likely there will be a bye in the qualies (unless it's a California event, they all seemed to be full).
So I don't see any reason not to show up with a racquet on the off chance that you'd get to play... so what if you get creamed and embarrass yourself. At least you can say you played professional tennis (sort of).
So I don't see any reason not to show up with a racquet on the off chance that you'd get to play... so what if you get creamed and embarrass yourself. At least you can say you played professional tennis (sort of).
pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
nobody is worried about being embarrased.
you dont just show up with a racquet. its months and months of preparations.
BounceHitBounceHit
Legend
Yes, and then they would find themselves unable to win points, much less games, at that level.
Likewise, all the guys on this forum who have called Tony a 4.0, etc would likely find themselves struggling to win points over entire matches against him.
CC
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BounceHitBounceHit
Legend
If you promise to play at least one Future, I am in for $100.
I like your style, and your manner on the forum. You've faced adversity, and RIDICULOUSLY unfounded criticism/critiques, with an open mind and good humor.
I wish you well,
CC
TonLars
Professional
Thanks for the advice! That would be an interesting way to go about it. No matter what I do, I definitely need to get out of Minnesota unless I can find someone or a couple people to rotate that can hit with me on a daily basis. Preferably other good players and there arent alot like in other states. I dont have that here now in the fall, at least not yet. During the summer Im playing tournaments straight throughout and hit a bit in between and so I keep sharp that way. Now theres nothing around here and I havent been able to hit much. Hoping to do alot of physical work, and find people to hit with. If you have more information on what youre suggesting I might like to get that from you.
Id be such a liability for him in doubles because the serve is so important! And in general volleying is not a weapon for me. He is a great doubles player, we would be pretty square in singles but he has the skills for doubles and has done well enough for himself to get into the top 30!! Its singles or bust for me unlike him.You could call up Butorac and team up with him in some dubs.
If you promise to play at least one Future, I am in for $100.
I like your style, and your manner on the forum. You've faced adversity, and RIDICULOUSLY unfounded criticism/critiques, with an open mind and good humor.
I wish you well,
CC
Thanks Craig I appreciate that. And thats such a very generous offer haha! I wont hold you to it. Ive decided next summer, assuming im healthy and playing well, I will only do a couple of the very high paying Opens, and for the rest of the summer play at least a couple Futures.
CAM178
Hall of Fame
Tony, I forgot about this. You might be aware of it, though. A pro I hit with a few years back told me that he had just spent a year in France. I asked him how he did it, and he told me about the 'Club' Tour. Essentially it is where you teach at a high-level club, training the better players and juniors. But fairly frequently, this club will sponsor you and the club team to go play another club, thusly the 'Club' Tour. All of the guys you play against are at the same level and/or better. A sort-of semi-Future experience, except that the money and lifestyle are a bit better. And if memory serves me (questionable at my age), they have similar setups throughout Europe. I just thought that sounded so cool. This kid (the pro) could play, but you could tell that he was match tough, and had gotten that way from that Tour. He said he had such a great time that he was going to try and get back on with another team in a different area to try it out.
J
Julieta
Guest
In Europe tennis is way bigger than over here. In the summer, the place goes crazy with competitions. Several countries (Germany bundesliga, Austria superliga, Netherlands, etc.) have the club system. I never did this, but I know people who did. Basically as CAM said, you get "sponsored" by a club and you play for that club against other clubs. I think it starts in May. They have several divisions, so at the top you have WTA and ATP pros and then it goes down from there. Lots of American college players go over and play for clubs during the summer, so there are divisions catering to that level and also levels below all the way to "normal" people. Ask some players you know and you'll probably find someone who has done this and can tell you how to get set up with a club. Or maybe someone on here will chime in with some info.
A more flexible option is the French system. This is basically a huge number of open tournaments, all over the country. Some have good prize money. It is pretty easy to get started with this. You go to Roland Garros and get a license and ranking. You may be able to do this from the US. They have a lot of rankings. You kind of want a lower ranking to start out with, they will adjust with each match. I think around 15 is what you want or 4/6 or something. Try to avoid getting a minus ranking. If you end up with one eventually through results there is not much you can do about it but you dont want to start off with one (you will not get as many matches and will have to play very tough players). The ranking determines what tournaments you can play and also where you start. For example, they may have a draw of 32 but depending upon your ranking, you may go right into the semis or something. You can also play multiple tournaments per week. So a month or so of this, you'll be pretty tough.
Some command of French helps. Many of the tournaments offer housing. You can get a schedule and other info from the FFT. You want to bring enough money or credit cards or whatever in case you dont get housing but you will be surprised at how hospitable people are. Often the tournament will pick you up at the train station etc. If they cant house you for free, they can give you info for cheap guest house etc. You also will need to plan for a place to stay between tournaments if you lose early. Some people will let you stay others dump you as soon as you've lost. Some familes are incredible. You can run into some strange stuff especially if you are taking out the locals in the event but also have some fantastic experiences too.
Okay I found some info on their website: http://www.fft.fr/cms-fft/?id=2641.
I think you and Moz should partner up and do this together!
So my two cents would be to do this at least for a month and then play some futures. My two cents on futures in the next post...
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J
Julieta
Guest
Which set of futures you play depends upon a few things...
- having a travel partner to reduce cost
- travel cost to destination
- your game style
- where the player is in their career
- schedule (what is offered when you can go)
- matches versus main draw DA
Obviously travel costs and having someone to go with can be big. Then there's the question of court surface and conditions, does your game do well on fast surfaces, slow, dry conditions, humidity, altitude etc.. Someone mentioned Latin America; there you have the example of every surface except maybe grass and every condition. Brazil and Argentina would be harder in terms of competition than many US sats. Somewhere like Bolivia will have fewer players but some will be very tough of course and are more expensive to get to and also things like altitude are a big factor.
Players also look for the "weak" sats. It can be good to get right into the main draw but it can be bad too. You could get the top seed with no match to play into the tournament. Also last year's weak sat is often the next year's tough sat.
IMO for what is worth - there is no way to control what's going to happen so I would pick the place that you most want to go! If for example you've always wanted to visit Finland, just go there. You'll really experience the culture. Of course if you have someone who wants to go and share costs that would be a big consideration too.
- having a travel partner to reduce cost
- travel cost to destination
- your game style
- where the player is in their career
- schedule (what is offered when you can go)
- matches versus main draw DA
Obviously travel costs and having someone to go with can be big. Then there's the question of court surface and conditions, does your game do well on fast surfaces, slow, dry conditions, humidity, altitude etc.. Someone mentioned Latin America; there you have the example of every surface except maybe grass and every condition. Brazil and Argentina would be harder in terms of competition than many US sats. Somewhere like Bolivia will have fewer players but some will be very tough of course and are more expensive to get to and also things like altitude are a big factor.
Players also look for the "weak" sats. It can be good to get right into the main draw but it can be bad too. You could get the top seed with no match to play into the tournament. Also last year's weak sat is often the next year's tough sat.
IMO for what is worth - there is no way to control what's going to happen so I would pick the place that you most want to go! If for example you've always wanted to visit Finland, just go there. You'll really experience the culture. Of course if you have someone who wants to go and share costs that would be a big consideration too.
if you've got a futures 20 minutes from your house, there's no excuse not to show up and see if you can get into the qualifier with a bye... unless you're just a wimp and don't want to get served off the court or something.
Or if you don't have the once-a-year fee of 45 dollars for the IPIN registration... otherwise the events are free, I think.
CAM178
Hall of Fame
Poor Tony. . .Moz would completely corrupt him. :mrgreen:
J
Julieta
Guest
Probably! They should get a VW camper, paint it tennis ball yellow and travel around Europe for the summer. Moz would love the French tournament lifestyle. One of their favorite sports is trying to get the international players as drunk (and as fat) as possible. You should go too!
CAM178
Hall of Fame
Don't tempt me! I would have an absolute blast doing it. I can just see the natives running when our camper pulls up. "Oh no! Not those 3 again!"
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
J
Julieta
Guest
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
I'll be on paint detail, how about something like this?
Rejoice with the Van Gods.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCW3xEXuyiQ&NR=1
J
CAM178
Hall of Fame
I know, right? Scary proposition, by anyone's definition.
I like where you're going with this. As the B-team, this will give us more time in the bars to recruit. Who's Maverick, and who's Goose?
Now you're talking. Man, can you imagine how popular our thread would be? I can see the 4 of us posting things like:I'll be on paint detail, how about something like this?
Rejoice with the Van Gods.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCW3xEXuyiQ&NR=1
J
'Moz won, but is now in the hospital, after getting kicked in the jewels repeatedly by a girl he never called back.'
'Tony won another tournament, so we all had to sit and wait on him for the last 3 days. Wanker.'
'CAM missed his first match again, due to the previous night's exploits.'
'Jolly got in a fight with a local when the guy tried to swipe one of his 83 K90's. Then the guy made the cardinal sin of keying our van's painting, and it really was like a real A-Team episode.'
Hmmm. . . .me likes the idea of a traveling 4-ring circus. Tennis, beer, good friends, crazy van. Good times. . . .good times.
BounceHitBounceHit
Legend
Yes. They have a very similiar system in Germany. A close friend of mine played it in the late 90's. You (the player) are also often 'hosted' by a family who puts you up and feeds you, etc. A great deal and the competition is KILLER. Might be a great idea for you, Tony.
CC
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
The orange thing is the oil pan, the brushed aluminum pan is the tranny pan. I am sure it has mufflers.
You got a problem with people who play D&D?
J
You got a problem with people who play D&D?
J
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Or just repair ours with parts from a meat slicer and a leaf blower that we found in the tournament director's garage.
J
Moz
Hall of Fame
Ha ha. Too easy.
It would have to be repaired by a broomstick and silk hankerchief.
been quietly lurking and reading this thread with great interest .fascinating thread . my 16 year old son is an aspiring tennis player and thanks to Moz he's off to play his first futures tournament in France this coming week..like Moz he's been playing the UK open circuit this summer but he has also spent a considerable amount of time playing tournaments in France over the last few years, a group of them and and their coach would decamp to france for a few weeks at a time during the summer and play tournaments ..as described earlier ,the french system has pretty much got to be the best at the moment .
we werent planning to play the futures so soon but Moz got me thinking it was worth a shot .
we're not expecting a great deal from his first futures event but so long as there are byes in the first round of the quali's and he gets at least one match then it should be a big learning experience for him and as the chinese say...every long journey starts with a small step .
we werent planning to play the futures so soon but Moz got me thinking it was worth a shot .
we're not expecting a great deal from his first futures event but so long as there are byes in the first round of the quali's and he gets at least one match then it should be a big learning experience for him and as the chinese say...every long journey starts with a small step .
Tim Tennis
Professional
Moz, thanks for starting such a great thread. I can't believe I read every post. I thought your observations were great. The insight into the various levels below professional tennis were so interesting. I apprreciated all the great posts from everyone.
Best regards,
Ed
Tennis Geometrics
Best regards,
Ed
Tennis Geometrics
