Observations from my morning clinic (about clinics in general)

[Deleted member 23235]

I just joined a new club, and looking to meet members, so they suggested i take the "advanced" clinic.
This particular clinic was a 4.0, 2 low 4.5 (one was good but injured).
90min long
Wanted to share my observations, perhaps discuss what the ideal clinic should be?
* no one seemed to be moving or splitting on contact (ie. only if they *knew* they were getting the ball, would they put effort
* everyone tried to hit winners whenever they could, on balls they probably shouldn't
* during "doubles points", the ball always went to the weaker player... whereas whenever i got a fed ball, i always hit it to the stronger player (even occasionally feeding him sitters at the baseline - ie. to get a good shot at the net)
* not much technical instruction... occasional positional instruction
* alot of attaboys (feels nice for a couple shots, but how 'bout you tell me what i'm doing wrong)
* during rallys - no points (ie. all 4 at the net), people still tried to hit winners... c'mon people, keep the rally going
* the big guy always got the droppers (ok, i was guilty of this)
* alot of "doubles" play... <blah>... feels like a cop out
* i get way less balls per hour, doing this clinic, than i do with just 1 hr drilling with a cooperative buddy

my ideal clinic:
* focus on a single stroke, and drill the sh*t out of it for 1-1.5h (maybe split into 15-20m blocks), but get some instruction during those blocks
* if dubs, make the drills more continuous... i'd rather have a rally where we get like 10-20 high % shots... than rallys of 1, where someone goes for winner (that they'd never go for in a match)...
* everyone on the court the same level... any time there is an imbalance on the court, they get picked on (in point situation)... take away: always be the worst person on the court, to get the most out of a clinic
* singles drills (ie. king of the court, or swap players around every 2-3 pts, etc...)
* penalize losers (ie. they take a lap, pushups, something) - some disincentive to taking stupid shots

in general i feel that dubs drills are the easy way out for coaches.. it's easy for them to run, but not alot of ROI for the participants

thoughts?

 

[SinjinCooper]

I hate clinics.

My favorite dynamic is actually one coach with two students. Far easier to see things when they're in action against another player, and far easier to focus if you don't have to be the other player.

 

[kiteboard]

The only way any advanced player learns anything is to focus on one thing for months. Ie, footwork, planting sideways, lining up, not over stepping the hitting foot. HIt deep to the bh side. First serve to a line. Second with twisting kick, etc. Alternating heavy spin, and flat shots.

 

[GuyClinch]

Your criticisms are valid. But I still like clinics. Fun. Getting to hit winners is fun. This is why most people go for it. For many people its more focused practice. But its still mostly for the amusement.

My only gripe is that in clinics everyone crushes the ball but in USTA - man guys just tap it. Haha.

 

[J011yroger]

Depends on the coach. There are ladies 3.0 clinics and there are I can't feel my legs and I think I'm going to throw up clinics.

J

 

[heninfan99]

sounds like a hit & giggle clinic, just enough to keep the strokes intact over the winter time if you go once every two weeks.

I like your idea of focusing on a single stroke. Do you have access to a ball machine or wall?

I just joined a new club, and looking to meet members, so they suggested i take the "advanced" clinic.
This particular clinic was a 4.0, 2 low 4.5 (one was good but injured).
90min long
Wanted to share my observations, perhaps discuss what the ideal clinic should be?
* no one seemed to be moving or splitting on contact (ie. only if they *knew* they were getting the ball, would they put effort
* everyone tried to hit winners whenever they could, on balls they probably shouldn't
* during "doubles points", the ball always went to the weaker player... whereas whenever i got a fed ball, i always hit it to the stronger player (even occasionally feeding him sitters at the baseline - ie. to get a good shot at the net)
* not much technical instruction... occasional positional instruction
* alot of attaboys (feels nice for a couple shots, but how 'bout you tell me what i'm doing wrong)
* during rallys - no points (ie. all 4 at the net), people still tried to hit winners... c'mon people, keep the rally going
* the big guy always got the droppers (ok, i was guilty of this)
* alot of "doubles" play... <blah>... feels like a cop out
* i get way less balls per hour, doing this clinic, than i do with just 1 hr drilling with a cooperative buddy

my ideal clinic:
* focus on a single stroke, and drill the sh*t out of it for 1-1.5h (maybe split into 15-20m blocks), but get some instruction during those blocks
* if dubs, make the drills more continuous... i'd rather have a rally where we get like 10-20 high % shots... than rallys of 1, where someone goes for winner (that they'd never go for in a match)...
* everyone on the court the same level... any time there is an imbalance on the court, they get picked on (in point situation)... take away: always be the worst person on the court, to get the most out of a clinic
* singles drills (ie. king of the court, or swap players around every 2-3 pts, etc...)
* penalize losers (ie. they take a lap, pushups, something) - some disincentive to taking stupid shots

in general i feel that dubs drills are the easy way out for coaches.. it's easy for them to run, but not alot of ROI for the participants

thoughts?

 

[ReopeningWed]

I just joined a new club, and looking to meet members, so they suggested i take the "advanced" clinic.
This particular clinic was a 4.0, 2 low 4.5 (one was good but injured).
90min long
Wanted to share my observations, perhaps discuss what the ideal clinic should be?
* no one seemed to be moving or splitting on contact (ie. only if they *knew* they were getting the ball, would they put effort
* everyone tried to hit winners whenever they could, on balls they probably shouldn't
* during "doubles points", the ball always went to the weaker player... whereas whenever i got a fed ball, i always hit it to the stronger player (even occasionally feeding him sitters at the baseline - ie. to get a good shot at the net)
* not much technical instruction... occasional positional instruction
* alot of attaboys (feels nice for a couple shots, but how 'bout you tell me what i'm doing wrong)
* during rallys - no points (ie. all 4 at the net), people still tried to hit winners... c'mon people, keep the rally going
* the big guy always got the droppers (ok, i was guilty of this)
* alot of "doubles" play... <blah>... feels like a cop out
* i get way less balls per hour, doing this clinic, than i do with just 1 hr drilling with a cooperative buddy

my ideal clinic:
* focus on a single stroke, and drill the sh*t out of it for 1-1.5h (maybe split into 15-20m blocks), but get some instruction during those blocks
* if dubs, make the drills more continuous... i'd rather have a rally where we get like 10-20 high % shots... than rallys of 1, where someone goes for winner (that they'd never go for in a match)...
* everyone on the court the same level... any time there is an imbalance on the court, they get picked on (in point situation)... take away: always be the worst person on the court, to get the most out of a clinic
* singles drills (ie. king of the court, or swap players around every 2-3 pts, etc...)
* penalize losers (ie. they take a lap, pushups, something) - some disincentive to taking stupid shots

in general i feel that dubs drills are the easy way out for coaches.. it's easy for them to run, but not alot of ROI for the participants

thoughts?

You're going to the wrong clinic, find a local tennis academy that has a developed and very rigorous junior program. They're sometimes hiding in community colleges or local universities.

There's a lot more social "beer and potluck" recreational tennis players than there are serious ones, so more often than not these clinics are tailored to best accommodate the casual player that just wants to feel good about themselves.

 

[heninfan99]

You're going to the wrong clinic, find a local tennis academy that has a developed and very rigorous junior program. They're sometimes hiding in community colleges or local universities.

There's a lot more social "beer and potluck" recreational tennis players than there are serious ones, so more often than not these clinics are tailored to best accommodate the casual player that just wants to feel good about themselves.

I wonder if there is some ageism even in club junior programs. I'm not sure tennis Moms want some middle aged, serious men mixed in with their little Codys and Taylors.

 

[Erlang]

take away: always be the worst person on the court, to get the most out of a clinic

This seems like a good way to annoy everyone else involved. I participated in a 90 minute clinic literally yesterday for 3.5 and 4.0 players. We had a full house with six players. There were four guys in their twenties and thirties playing pretty modern games based on topspin groundstrokes. An older dude in his late forties with a more old school game with flatter shots and net rushing... And a then a clearly weaker player, WP.

WP got beat up. I think about 80% of shots hit with anything more than moderate topspin and pace did not come back. This included whiffs and balls sent flying to the next court. One guy who got partnered with WP in the next game when we changed partners, I surmise out of frustration, blasted an overhead at full speed right at WP at the net.

I think WP got overconfident from playing 2.5 ladies in a different clinic the club runs. But when you play up, past a certain skill differential you just aren't learning anything aside from how to helplessly flail at shots you can't handle.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

I hate clinics.

My favorite dynamic is actually one coach with two students. Far easier to see things when they're in action against another player, and far easier to focus if you don't have to be the other player.

ditto.
i just did it to meet folks.
my best lessons to give and take are where the coach is NOT playing or feeding (just observing, taking notes, etc...)

The only way any advanced player learns anything is to focus on one thing for months. Ie, footwork, planting sideways, lining up, not over stepping the hitting foot. HIt deep to the bh side. First serve to a line. Second with twisting kick, etc. Alternating heavy spin, and flat shots.

yup, agreed.
for this particular session: i focused on my
* bh... particularly inside out, or dtl
* fh... heavy top dipper (vs. net person) or to sideT when i could

Depends on the coach. There are ladies 3.0 clinics and there are I can't feel my legs and I think I'm going to throw up clinics.

J

agreed... ideal clinic is the "i can't feel my legs and i'm gonna throw up" variety
to this... i think coaches should be pushing
making you feel accountable for your shots...
pushing you past your limits...
instead, i think because coaches know they'll get more return players (ie. the type that want to be coddled ("you're doing great, here's a participation trophy" type crowd),... are maybe also the type that will pay more often)... they load on the attaboys like syrup on chocolate pancakes.

I wonder if there is some ageism even in club junior programs. I'm not sure tennis Moms want some middle aged, serious men mixed in with their little Codys and Taylors.

i think this goes back to the coddling vs. pushing mentallity. Junior programs... kids (and the paying parents), kinda expect the coach to push... adult programs, seems like the majority need coddling.

This seems like a good way to annoy everyone else involved. I participated in a 90 minute clinic literally yesterday for 3.5 and 4.0 players. We had a full house with six players. There were four guys in their twenties and thirties playing pretty modern games based on topspin groundstrokes. An older dude in his late forties with a more old school game with flatter shots and net rushing... And a then a clearly weaker player, WP.

WP got beat up. I think about 80% of shots hit with anything more than moderate topspin and pace did not come back. This included whiffs and balls sent flying to the next court. One guy who got partnered with WP in the next game when we changed partners, I surmise out of frustration, blasted an overhead at full speed right at WP at the net.

I think WP got overconfident from playing 2.5 ladies in a different clinic the club runs. But when you play up, past a certain skill differential you just aren't learning anything aside from how to helplessly flail at shots you can't handle.

yeah, technically the "low 4.0" in the group was the one botching all the shots... If i hit to him, i had to make sure it was only to his fh, and he didn't have to run (otherwise likely wouldn't come back).
but to win points in "games" everyone else would hit to him to win the easy point (he was a big fella, and even i was guilty of hitting a few droppers ), but it also meant, he was getting the most training.
ideally the coach would control the quality of player... but if your running a clinic, and you need to get paid, how do you say no?
if i was the WP in your example, i wouldn't get discouraged,... i wuold be ENCOURAGED to come back, again, and again, and again.... i disagree about the learning part... I'd be getting more opportunities to make mistakes, make adustments, etc... (isn't that why we all want to play with better players?)

 

[Deleted member 23235]

You're going to the wrong clinic, find a local tennis academy that has a developed and very rigorous junior program. They're sometimes hiding in community colleges or local universities.

There's a lot more social "beer and potluck" recreational tennis players than there are serious ones, so more often than not these clinics are tailored to best accommodate the casual player that just wants to feel good about themselves.

absolutely agree, but i joined to meet folks,... not to attend the clinic
honestly my 1h training session with a cooperative partner (i have a couple, but outside this particular club) is waaaay harder (and i hit waaaay more balls).

 

[Deleted member 23235]

just want to add, that this club, is not a tennis focused club... more a highend spa/massage/gym... my wife wanted to join
so maybe i got what i deserved (vs. a "grittier" place not catering to those needing to be coddled)

 

[J011yroger]

just want to add, that this club, is not a tennis focused club... more a highend spa/massage/gym... my wife wanted to join
so maybe i got what i deserved (vs. a "grittier" place not catering to those needing to be coddled)

Lifetime?

J

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Lifetime?

J

lol, yeah

 

[Erlang]

ideally the coach would control the quality of player... but if your running a clinic, and you need to get paid, how do you say no?
if i was the WP in your example, i wouldn't get discouraged,... i wuold be ENCOURAGED to come back, again, and again, and again.... i disagree about the learning part... I'd be getting more opportunities to make mistakes, make adustments, etc... (isn't that why we all want to play with better players?)

The flip side of this is that by allowing weaker players in, the stronger players will eventually stop coming. And in this clinic the stronger players were actually taking it easy on WP. They could hit harder and spinnier shots against the others

I think there is great value in playing against stronger players that are 0.5 to 1.0 NTRP points above you. If you start going beyond that, you're not learning much

 

[sureshs]

I just joined a new club, and looking to meet members, so they suggested i take the "advanced" clinic.
This particular clinic was a 4.0, 2 low 4.5 (one was good but injured).
90min long
Wanted to share my observations, perhaps discuss what the ideal clinic should be?
* no one seemed to be moving or splitting on contact (ie. only if they *knew* they were getting the ball, would they put effort
* everyone tried to hit winners whenever they could, on balls they probably shouldn't
* during "doubles points", the ball always went to the weaker player... whereas whenever i got a fed ball, i always hit it to the stronger player (even occasionally feeding him sitters at the baseline - ie. to get a good shot at the net)
* not much technical instruction... occasional positional instruction
* alot of attaboys (feels nice for a couple shots, but how 'bout you tell me what i'm doing wrong)
* during rallys - no points (ie. all 4 at the net), people still tried to hit winners... c'mon people, keep the rally going
* the big guy always got the droppers (ok, i was guilty of this)
* alot of "doubles" play... <blah>... feels like a cop out
* i get way less balls per hour, doing this clinic, than i do with just 1 hr drilling with a cooperative buddy

my ideal clinic:
* focus on a single stroke, and drill the sh*t out of it for 1-1.5h (maybe split into 15-20m blocks), but get some instruction during those blocks
* if dubs, make the drills more continuous... i'd rather have a rally where we get like 10-20 high % shots... than rallys of 1, where someone goes for winner (that they'd never go for in a match)...
* everyone on the court the same level... any time there is an imbalance on the court, they get picked on (in point situation)... take away: always be the worst person on the court, to get the most out of a clinic
* singles drills (ie. king of the court, or swap players around every 2-3 pts, etc...)
* penalize losers (ie. they take a lap, pushups, something) - some disincentive to taking stupid shots

in general i feel that dubs drills are the easy way out for coaches.. it's easy for them to run, but not alot of ROI for the participants

thoughts?

That is why clinics are not worth the money, unless you need an incentive to get out and hit some balls.

 

[J011yroger]

That is why clinics are not worth the money, unless you need an incentive to get out and hit some balls.

Funny how kids playing in drills where a pro feeds them a variety of balls in certain patterns with certain targets get better while guys who just go out and hit with their friends stay the same.

I'm sure you know best though.

J

 

[sureshs]

Funny how kids playing in drills where a pro feeds them a variety of balls in certain patterns with certain targets get better while guys who just go out and hit with their friends stay the same.

I'm sure you know best though.

J

You are comparing kids with adults. That is where the difference lies. I do know best since I have seen thousands of adults over the years.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

The flip side of this is that by allowing weaker players in, the stronger players will eventually stop coming. And in this clinic the stronger players were actually taking it easy on WP. They could hit harder and spinnier shots against the others

I think there is great value in playing against stronger players that are 0.5 to 1.0 NTRP points above you. If you start going beyond that, you're not learning much

yeah, good point, but arguably it's the weaker players that are more likely to keep coming back
i totally agree with you..
any ideas on how to run a clinic that solves the player (quality practice) and the coaches ($$$) goals

 

[J011yroger]

You are comparing kids with adults. That is where the difference lies. I do know best since I have seen thousands of adults over the years.

Were any of them good?

J

 

[Deleted member 23235]

That is why clinics are not worth the money, unless you need an incentive to get out and hit some balls.

i never said clinics (in general) are not worth the money, just trying to figure out the best way to get value from them.
this particular clinic (in this format) is less ROI (ie. i'd be better off setting up my own practice with a cooperative partner) but: i joined the clinic to meet a cooperative partner (equal level)
@sureshs if you could design your own clinic... how would you want the format? how much would you charge?

 

[sureshs]

Clinics are good if you are on vacation at a resort and can't find someone to play with. As someone who is on such a resort's call list, I can assure you that guests prefer to play with other guests and locals rather than pay for clinics.

There is a group of guys at my club who have been taking weekly clinics for years. They still suck, because their basics are wrong.

I am not saying that those who don't attend clinics but play leagues and social tennis improve. They don't. Well, to be fair, their doubles skills slightly improve over the years.

Only those who think about their game and analyze themselves continuously and learn and make incremental changes show improvement in singles.

 

[J011yroger]

Clinics are good if you are on vacation at a resort and can't find someone to play with. As someone who is on such a resort's call list, I can assure you that guests prefer to play with other guests and locals rather than pay for clinics.

There is a group of guys at my club who have been taking weekly clinics for years. They still suck, because their basics are wrong.

I am not saying that those who don't attend clinics but play leagues and social tennis improve. They don't. Well, to be fair, their doubles skills slightly improve over the years.

Only those who think about their game and analyze themselves continuously and learn and make incremental changes show improvement in singles.

Imaging going on vacation and asking for someone to play and the resort delivers Sureshs?

J

 

[heninfan99]

I wouldn't call it a clinic but Brent Abel has a page describing a group he got into ran by Tom Stow. It seemed to be an adult group of serious players where Stow taught them a system or style of play called the All Court Forcing Game. This more serious type of group might be what NYTA would like. I'm not sure such a thing exists for adults these days.

Advanced adults these days, with their strokes in place, might benefit more from a system of play since their technique is already formed.

 

[sureshs]

Imaging going on vacation and asking for someone to play and the resort delivers Sureshs?

J

Many many times now over the years for guests in the 3.5 to 4.5 range, singles and doubles. I actually had an invite this Monday morning but could not go.

 

[J011yroger]

Many many times now over the years for guests in the 3.5 to 4.5 range, singles and doubles. I actually had an invite this Monday morning but could not go.

I'm feeling tingly at the mere prospect.

J

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Clinics are good if you are on vacation at a resort and can't find someone to play with. As someone who is on such a resort's call list, I can assure you that guests prefer to play with other guests and locals rather than pay for clinics.

There is a group of guys at my club who have been taking weekly clinics for years. They still suck, because their basics are wrong.

I am not saying that those who don't attend clinics but play leagues and social tennis improve. They don't. Well, to be fair, their doubles skills slightly improve over the years.

Only those who think about their game and analyze themselves continuously and learn and make incremental changes show improvement in singles.

yeah, the type of clinic i had, was just like that... good for finding someone to play with (ie. why i took the clinic).

I wouldn't call it a clinic but Brent Abel has a page describing a group he got into ran by Tom Stow. It seemed to be an adult group of serious players where Stow taught them a system or style of play called the All Court Forcing Game. This more serious type of group might be what NYTA would like. I'm not sure such a thing exists for adults these days.

Advanced adults these days, with their strokes in place, might benefit more from a system of play since their technique is already formed.

exactly what i'm looking for.
i guess an advanced junior program (ie. college bound kids),... but for adults!
but i'm guessing there is not a large pool of folks interested in something like this... (or at least not at a high cost)

 

[sureshs]

yeah, the type of clinic i had, was just like that... good for finding someone to play with (ie. why i took the clinic).

exactly what i'm looking for.
i guess an advanced junior program (ie. college bound kids),... but for adults!

You would need to find good coaches for that. Most good ones are busy with top juniors. They may not want to spend time on adults. The ones who focus on adults can hardly play at the 4.0 level themselves.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I just joined a new club, and looking to meet members, so they suggested i take the "advanced" clinic.
This particular clinic was a 4.0, 2 low 4.5 (one was good but injured).
90min long
Wanted to share my observations, perhaps discuss what the ideal clinic should be?
* no one seemed to be moving or splitting on contact (ie. only if they *knew* they were getting the ball, would they put effort
* everyone tried to hit winners whenever they could, on balls they probably shouldn't
* during "doubles points", the ball always went to the weaker player... whereas whenever i got a fed ball, i always hit it to the stronger player (even occasionally feeding him sitters at the baseline - ie. to get a good shot at the net)
* not much technical instruction... occasional positional instruction
* alot of attaboys (feels nice for a couple shots, but how 'bout you tell me what i'm doing wrong)
* during rallys - no points (ie. all 4 at the net), people still tried to hit winners... c'mon people, keep the rally going
* the big guy always got the droppers (ok, i was guilty of this)
* alot of "doubles" play... <blah>... feels like a cop out
* i get way less balls per hour, doing this clinic, than i do with just 1 hr drilling with a cooperative buddy

my ideal clinic:
* focus on a single stroke, and drill the sh*t out of it for 1-1.5h (maybe split into 15-20m blocks), but get some instruction during those blocks
* if dubs, make the drills more continuous... i'd rather have a rally where we get like 10-20 high % shots... than rallys of 1, where someone goes for winner (that they'd never go for in a match)...
* everyone on the court the same level... any time there is an imbalance on the court, they get picked on (in point situation)... take away: always be the worst person on the court, to get the most out of a clinic
* singles drills (ie. king of the court, or swap players around every 2-3 pts, etc...)
* penalize losers (ie. they take a lap, pushups, something) - some disincentive to taking stupid shots

in general i feel that dubs drills are the easy way out for coaches.. it's easy for them to run, but not alot of ROI for the participants

thoughts?

We used to have winter indoor drill groups made up of the same guys we had doubles leagues with. For example ... I played with the same 4.5 guys on Wed night and Sat morning (2 courts). Most of us would try and make the Mon night drill group ... so it was always good. We would always warm up running the baseline and hitting shots/passes off of the feed. Then we would do more variations of drills ... maybe 2 guys doing cc point ... rest lined up to take their turn. It kept moving ... you were not idle for long. We did some doubles points type drills ... but really not to much straight up doubles ... already did that twice a week.

Seems like the best thing to do if to wide a skills gap is to do more individual drills. For example ... I remember two lines from baseline. One guy was fed a ball ... he hit a shot past feeder ... came in and took a volley ... and then back peddled for overhead. While he went back to his line (cleared any balls) ... the guy in the front of the 2nd line started. Not that much standing around ... and if our head pro (played #1 D1 singles) was in a mean mood ... you were gasping at end of line.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

My advice is to try to "make yourself the weakest player", so you get more balls hit to you. By this I mean, pick what you need to get better at (weak part of your game), and try to do that as much as possible during the drills. Not saying don't do the drills, but do them on your terms, which in this case means focusing on your weaker shot.

I do this often when there is a variation in skill levels for drills and I am one of the stronger players. For instance, I determine at the start to work on my inside out and DTL backhands. So, when the feed comes I find a way to hit my bad shot, running around my forehand, rally by hitting only backhands (footwork!), etc. I won't gain a thing by blasting huge forehands in this situation anyway, but I can still get better by exposing my weaknesses and working on them.

Now, if the skills gap is significant, even this won't work. If my inside out backhand is chewing up the guy across the net, well, I'm just in the wrong drill session. You win some, you lose some.

 

[Bender]

Coaching v self-coaching is always an interesting topic because it's quite easy to see that both sides have a lot of misconceptions about each other.

Having self-coached for a 4-5 years, using the materials on these boards and online in general, and then switching to group coaching for the last 2.5 years, I think I can say there is both legitimacy and major downsides to both POVs.

Coaching's biggest issue is the price. No matter how little the coach charges, it's more expensive to get a coach than it is to buy a box of balls and play with a friend.
Self-coaching's biggest issue is the cost of time. Even if you know the theory, you have no feedback on your performance until you watch yourself later, at which point it is already too late to make the necessary changes. If you watch your recording on court instead, then you are wasting time and money that you've sunk into getting the courts, not to mention that you're stranding your partner until you've finished watching. You will also lose rhythm if you take an extended time out from play, so implementation may take time. Even if you do somehow implement it on the spot, you still need to record and watch yourself again to figure out if you've implemented it correctly or not. You also do not have the benefit of experience that a coach offers, who may have several tricks up his sleeve that could be relevant. There's also no guarantee that any changes you do will stick, meaning that you can implement a change immediately, and then over time have the said change slowly evaporate until you're back to your original form. A diligent coach on the other hand will point out the moment you've reverted back to muscle memory.

Drills are fine since most of us will not care to do them without a coach around. The other thing is that it's essential to drill in new techniques, so as long as you are receiving proper instruction and feedback on your technique, the drills present a perfect opportunity to really commit changes to muscle memory. One of the reasons why self-coaching doesn't work is because many players lack the discipline needed to do drills themselves, let alone drill new techniques until they're gasping. Even the pros like Federer and Nadal do drills with their coach, so what exactly makes plebs like us think we can get away with not doing them?

But then again, quality of coaching is highly varies from coach to coach. When you teach yourself, it's a known constant. The only issue is whether you recognise when you're not competent enough to teach yourself--but that's where the Dunning-Kruger Effect comes in. Based on the videos I have seen on these boards, I'm compelled to believe that most of us are in fact not competent enough to coach ourselves properly, yet are too incompetent to recognise that we are in fact, incompetent. It's what drove me to get coaching in the first place.

Edit: The other thing is that I just realised that coached juniors v self-coached adults is not the best comparison because kids absorb new information and implement physical changes like a sponge, while adults are often too pig-headed / obstinate to accept advice let alone implement them quickly enough. If adults were as willing to accept new information as kids, they would have already taken the advice on these boards and would be receiving quality coaching already, not logging onto these boards to talk about how good they are at coaching themselves and why coaches are scam artists.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I think what @nytennisaddict described is more akin to what I'd call a drill session: very little feedback from the pro, a lot of laughing and good-natured insults; basically, a social occasion that happens to revolve around tennis. I still have found use in them when wanting to practice a specific shot: I simply try to position myself to frequently receive the incoming that I'm looking for.

- I try not to get lazy.
- I deliberately hit to my opponents' strengths sometimes just to make my life more difficult.
- I don't shy away from being paired with a weaker player; it just means I have to work harder and that's what I'm there for.
- Other people may not hold me accountable but you can bet I am.

In the end, I think drill sessions have their place. If I was serious about improvement to the point where it was a central part of my life, I would spend my energy elsewhere. Tennis, while important, is not nearly that important.

 

[jm1980]

I don't know why tennis attracts such douches.

Considering how much of an emphasis the sport places on etiquette, it seems players seem increasingly adamant about flouting such rules.

What are you talking about?

 

[Deleted member 23235]

I don't know why tennis attracts such douches.

Considering how much of an emphasis the sport places on etiquette, it seems players seem increasingly adamant about flouting such rules.

The last time I played with any regularity may have been back in 09. 8 years later, no one seems to know of or even care about etiquette.

It's very frustrating. I just have to put up with it if I want to play any tennis at all.

whoa, that escalated,... so how did we get from "observations of a clinic" to "douches on the tennis court"?

discuss!

 

[ByeByePoly]

Coaching v self-coaching is always an interesting topic because it's quite easy to see that both sides have a lot of misconceptions about each other.

Having self-coached for a 4-5 years, using the materials on these boards and online in general, and then switching to group coaching for the last 2.5 years, I think I can say there is both legitimacy and major downsides to both POVs.

Coaching's biggest issue is the price. No matter how little the coach charges, it's more expensive to get a coach than it is to buy a box of balls and play with a friend.
Self-coaching's biggest issue is the cost of time. Even if you know the theory, you have no feedback on your performance until you watch yourself later, at which point it is already too late to make the necessary changes. If you watch your recording on court instead, then you are wasting time and money that you've sunk into getting the courts, not to mention that you're stranding your partner until you've finished watching. You will also lose rhythm if you take an extended time out from play, so implementation may take time. Even if you do somehow implement it on the spot, you still need to record and watch yourself again to figure out if you've implemented it correctly or not. You also do not have the benefit of experience that a coach offers, who may have several tricks up his sleeve that could be relevant. There's also no guarantee that any changes you do will stick, meaning that you can implement a change immediately, and then over time have the said change slowly evaporate until you're back to your original form. A diligent coach on the other hand will point out the moment you've reverted back to muscle memory.

Drills are fine since most of us will not care to do them without a coach around. The other thing is that it's essential to drill in new techniques, so as long as you are receiving proper instruction and feedback on your technique, the drills present a perfect opportunity to really commit changes to muscle memory. One of the reasons why self-coaching doesn't work is because many players lack the discipline needed to do drills themselves, let alone drill new techniques until they're gasping. Even the pros like Federer and Nadal do drills with their coach, so what exactly makes plebs like us think we can get away with not doing them?

But then again, quality of coaching is highly varies from coach to coach. When you teach yourself, it's a known constant. The only issue is whether you recognise when you're not competent enough to teach yourself--but that's where the Dunning-Kruger Effect comes in. Based on the videos I have seen on these boards, I'm compelled to believe that most of us are in fact not competent enough to coach ourselves properly, yet are too incompetent to recognise that we are in fact, incompetent. It's what drove me to get coaching in the first place.

Edit: The other thing is that I just realised that coached juniors v self-coached adults is not the best comparison because kids absorb new information and implement physical changes like a sponge, while adults are often too pig-headed / obstinate to accept advice let alone implement them quickly enough. If adults were as willing to accept new information as kids, they would have already taken the advice on these boards and would be receiving quality coaching already, not logging onto these boards to talk about how good they are at coaching themselves and why coaches are scam artists.

Excellent advice. You are a smart kid for someone that hasn't seen a flat ball.

I will have to look up Dunning-Kruger Effect ... had not heard of this but now feel incompetent ... thanks a lot.

All kidding aside ... that was superb observation ... I bet a lot of readers that never post here will get a lot from it.

 

[ByeByePoly]

whoa, that escalated,... so how did we get from "observations of a clinic" to "douches on the tennis court"?

discuss!

I think he is talking about you.

Or maybe he played in my old Wed night doubles group ... those line calls were douchy.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

I don't know why tennis attracts such douches.

Considering how much of an emphasis the sport places on etiquette, it seems players seem increasingly adamant about flouting such rules.

The last time I played with any regularity may have been back in 09. 8 years later, no one seems to know of or even care about etiquette.

It's very frustrating. I just have to put up with it if I want to play any tennis at all.

whoa, that escalated,... so how did we get from "observations of a clinic" to "douches on the tennis court"?

discuss!

I think he is talking about you.

if that's true, more of a reason to discuss!

 

[Bender]

Excellent advice. You are a smart kid for someone that hasn't seen a flat ball.

I will have to look up Dunning-Kruger Effect ... had not heard of this but now feel incompetent ... thanks a lot.

All kidding aside ... that was superb observation ... I bet a lot of readers that never post here will get a lot from it.

Hahaha Bye, you never cease to make me laugh whenever you respond to my posts!

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect, I gave a crude summary of what it is in that same paragraph. I grabbed a quick explanation of it from Wiki:

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which low-ability individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability as much higher than it really is

Anyway, thanks for your compliment--it means a lot when I get a nod of approval from experienced players like yourself!

 

[ByeByePoly]

Hahaha Bye, you never cease to make me laugh whenever you respond to my posts!

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect, I gave a crude summary of what it is in that same paragraph. I grabbed a quick explanation of it from Wiki:



Anyway, thanks for your compliment--it means a lot when I get a nod of approval from experienced players like yourself!

Think we have an orange Kruger

Bend it like Bender

 

[ByeByePoly]

Hahaha Bye, you never cease to make me laugh whenever you respond to my posts!

Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect, I gave a crude summary of what it is in that same paragraph. I grabbed a quick explanation of it from Wiki:



Anyway, thanks for your compliment--it means a lot when I get a nod of approval from experienced players like yourself!

"you never cease to make me laugh"

It's my job ... I drew the short straw. I will be playing here all week

 

[ByeByePoly]

if that's true, more of a reason to discuss!

…

 

[Bender]

Think we have an orange Kruger

Bend it like Bender

I myself prefer Diane Kruger

 

[ByeByePoly]

I myself prefer Diane Kruger

Beautiful ... to old for you.

 

[ReopeningWed]

There is a group of guys at my club who have been taking weekly clinics for years. They still suck, because their basics are wrong.

Gee sureshs, you know you can stop taking those clinics at any time right? It's never too late to learn the basics of tennis.

Imaging going on vacation and asking for someone to play and the resort delivers Sureshs?

J

I'd pack my bags and ask my office to save the rest of my holiday time, I'm coming back early.

 

[mikefl]

I like most clinics.

You get out of them what you put in. If you go into it and immediately decide that you are better than everyone else and it is pointless, then for you it will be pointless.

I find they are invaluable for practicing what to do with all kinds of shots as you will see all kinds of weird things. When I play in them I do it with a purpose. I specifically look to work on some very specific things after waiting a few minutes to see what types of things the other players like to do. For instance if I see someone always hits a cross court slice backhand I will then hit it to their backhand and work on my down the line approach. Things like that.

As a sole source of instruction they probably won't help most once they get to about 3.5 but if you use them supplement your other instruction and practice what you are learning, they can help quite a bit.

If I get bored because we have some bad players that can barely keep the ball in, I just use it as a cardio exercise and go charging into the net after every shot. You'd be surprised how quickly you tire out doing this and the amount of practice you get on approach and volley shots. The wildness of their shots actually helps me on my reflexes as I have no idea where the ball will go since they don't either. If they are lobbing it over my head, so be it, I get to practice going back and trying to hit a decent shot back.

 

[TennisCJC]

Me experience with clinics is similar - some people just don't get it even though this is their 20th clinic with the same coach touting the same positioning tips. There also is limited tech instructions. But, if the coach can keep every one active and I get to hit lots of balls under match type scenarios, I think it is worth the $10-$15 to just get a good work out.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Has anyone noticed being good at drill group doesn't always equal being good at winning matches? I might have been a 4.5 player and a 3.0 drill group player ... all in the same week.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

I might have been a 4.5 player and a 3.0 drill group player ... all in the same week.

Most players are the opposite. Lions in clinic but mice in a league match.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Most players are the opposite. Lions in clinic but mice in a league match.

Yeah ... I've seen it. Several friends of mine would pay me back in drills. It was frustrating, but it was much better than the reverse. No trophies in drill group.

 

[heninfan99]

New Div 1 coach from Spain ran my clinic. It was excellent.

He brought the youthful enthusiasm of a pro that hasn't yet realized most won't do their homework to improve.

We discussed the various famous academies in Spain and he made us really work. Slightly different game scenarios as well.

This type of coach makes a big difference to the clinic experience.

I just joined a new club, and looking to meet members, so they suggested i take the "advanced" clinic.
This particular clinic was a 4.0, 2 low 4.5 (one was good but injured).
90min long
Wanted to share my observations, perhaps discuss what the ideal clinic should be?
* no one seemed to be moving or splitting on contact (ie. only if they *knew* they were getting the ball, would they put effort
* everyone tried to hit winners whenever they could, on balls they probably shouldn't
* during "doubles points", the ball always went to the weaker player... whereas whenever i got a fed ball, i always hit it to the stronger player (even occasionally feeding him sitters at the baseline - ie. to get a good shot at the net)
* not much technical instruction... occasional positional instruction
* alot of attaboys (feels nice for a couple shots, but how 'bout you tell me what i'm doing wrong)
* during rallys - no points (ie. all 4 at the net), people still tried to hit winners... c'mon people, keep the rally going
* the big guy always got the droppers (ok, i was guilty of this)
* alot of "doubles" play... <blah>... feels like a cop out
* i get way less balls per hour, doing this clinic, than i do with just 1 hr drilling with a cooperative buddy

my ideal clinic:
* focus on a single stroke, and drill the sh*t out of it for 1-1.5h (maybe split into 15-20m blocks), but get some instruction during those blocks
* if dubs, make the drills more continuous... i'd rather have a rally where we get like 10-20 high % shots... than rallys of 1, where someone goes for winner (that they'd never go for in a match)...
* everyone on the court the same level... any time there is an imbalance on the court, they get picked on (in point situation)... take away: always be the worst person on the court, to get the most out of a clinic
* singles drills (ie. king of the court, or swap players around every 2-3 pts, etc...)
* penalize losers (ie. they take a lap, pushups, something) - some disincentive to taking stupid shots

in general i feel that dubs drills are the easy way out for coaches.. it's easy for them to run, but not alot of ROI for the participants

thoughts?