TimeToPlaySets
Legend
That's correct. I've heard of Nadal and Federer, however
you've hardly watched men's tennis in the past 10-15 years?
tlm
G.O.A.T.
Played a match yesterday and used my retriever style game to win 2 and 4. Of course my opponent was complaining that I didn’t hit consistent pace like he is used to and he plays better against pace and on and on with the same excuses I’ve heard many times. I told him that he did hit more winners than I did though. Lol
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Good on 'ya, mate! The success of that style is because almost everyone makes more errors than winners. So, the longer you can keep the ball in play, the more likely you'll benefit from an opponent error.
Your opponent was making excuses to feel better about losing. That's a sign of mental weakness, IMO, that can be exploited.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
This opponent is an fool who does not understand "sports"
The ENTIRE POINT of beating an opponent is to make the game difficult hard for him.
I play an aggressive game, and will never hear this, but if someone said this to me,
I would tell him off, and explain to him why he's a clueless fool.
The point of a match is to win, you dumb ****.
The point is not to give you the shots you LIKE.
He has it 100% backwards.
3.0 tennis: Just try to hit balls over the net.
3.5 tennis: Hit shots that you like hitting.
4.0 tennis: Hit shots that opponent does not like.
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TimeToPlaySets
Legend
Playing a human wall of a retriever today.
Notes to self:
1) Do not try to bash thru him. He can handle pace easily. Hit it high, and remove net errors.
2) Hit it where he is not. If he favors his FH, hit DTL and make him run.
3) Make him run.
4) Serve and volley. He will not attack my serve.
5) Serve 2nd serves all match. No DFs, since he will not attack my 2nd serve.
6) When he drop shots me, drop shot it right back. Do not hit it back to him and then get lobbed.
Notes to self:
1) Do not try to bash thru him. He can handle pace easily. Hit it high, and remove net errors.
2) Hit it where he is not. If he favors his FH, hit DTL and make him run.
3) Make him run.
4) Serve and volley. He will not attack my serve.
5) Serve 2nd serves all match. No DFs, since he will not attack my 2nd serve.
6) When he drop shots me, drop shot it right back. Do not hit it back to him and then get lobbed.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
When a 4.5 with heavy baseline strokes says his baseline game is not good enough to beat a retriever, this be overlooked and lost.
A pusher/retriever has often logged 10x the court time as the typical weekend hacker, and can handle your big 3.5/4.0 pace (most tennis players).
Outbashing him will fail, since you are not that consistent.
tlm
G.O.A.T.
This is pretty spot on, those are pretty much the options that are available but you need to be able to execute them fairly efficiently.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Just be aware that by doing this you will be frequently hitting the lower % shot. There needs to be a good reason for doing this [a weak BH is a good reason].
Not so sure about this one. Retrievers tend to be better runners than their opponents.
He will once he figures out you're Sing&Ving. But that's fine because he's not accustomed to attacking the serve so the %s work out in your favor.
Does this retriever drop shot that much?
Don't fear the lob [unless your OH is weak]: it's an admittance by your opponent that this defensive shot [unless it's a TS lob] is the best he's got; that puts you in the driver's seat.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
I had a solid match against the retriever.
I did not S&V because he has learned to attack my serve.
He can handle my serve better than most 3.5's, so his ROS was coming back deep.
I hit it away from him, and forced many errors.
What was a wall, turns into errors when hitting on the run.
What was funny to see was the retriver is now starting to play more aggressive tennis.
This comes at the cost of more UEs as he develops those harder strokes.
The lob is a clean winner when you're at the net, even if you're 8' tall.
You damn well need to fear it. Retrievers have perfected the lob winner.
It it so damn satisfying to play smart tennis.
Not overhitting, keeping the rally going, mixing up pace and depth, etc.
Beating a retriever is the most satisfying win of them all.
I did not S&V because he has learned to attack my serve.
He can handle my serve better than most 3.5's, so his ROS was coming back deep.
I hit it away from him, and forced many errors.
What was a wall, turns into errors when hitting on the run.
What was funny to see was the retriver is now starting to play more aggressive tennis.
This comes at the cost of more UEs as he develops those harder strokes.
The lob is a clean winner when you're at the net, even if you're 8' tall.
You damn well need to fear it. Retrievers have perfected the lob winner.
It it so damn satisfying to play smart tennis.
Not overhitting, keeping the rally going, mixing up pace and depth, etc.
Beating a retriever is the most satisfying win of them all.
D
Deleted member 120290
Guest
So when your opponent pushes, it is called pushing.
But when you push, it's called smart tennis.
I was wondering how it is mathematically possible that everyone on TT complains about playing pushers, but not one of them is a pusher.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
Read my sig.
Only fools bash pushers.
Only fools bash pushers.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Lake Woebegone math, that's how.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
A deep RoS is not "attacking your serve" if you S&V: what would be a challenging shot if you stayed on the BL becomes a potential putaway opportunity if you're coming into the net. At least give it a try.
I mentioned this was likely when you started playing S&V: he'd be forced to play more aggressively.
If that's the case, no one would come to the net:
- Yes, some people are very good lobbers
- The tougher your approach, the more difficult it will be to lob
- You need to adjust for his lobbing skill by perhaps staying further away from the net; if he also has a wicked dipper, you might be in trouble
- "Clean winner" implies he's hitting TS lobs that you can't react to. If he's hitting high backspin lobs, you should be able to either hit an OH or at least catch up and counter-lob. The last video you posted though, showed you getting beaten by the lob because you weren't in balance but instead were still moving forward.
The reason this is seen less and less the higher one goes is because a good OH beats a good lob. Not all of the time but enough of the time that players on both sides recognize it.
Well, congrats! It's yet another stage of your evolution as a player.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
@TenFanLA - note that TTPS changed his signature a few months back; it used to be something like "I don't care about winning; I only care about beautiful strokes."
The new one is 180 degrees opposite.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
A few months back, I started playing matches.
I have not taken a lesson since Aug (pretty strokes)
In league play, only one thing matters. W.
And for that, you need to reign in your inner spazzz.
In Spring, I will resume lessons, and focus on pretty strokes again.
I have not taken a lesson since Aug (pretty strokes)
In league play, only one thing matters. W.
And for that, you need to reign in your inner spazzz.
In Spring, I will resume lessons, and focus on pretty strokes again.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I take it that you will then revert your signature?
Doc Hollidae
Hall of Fame
Is that the same as Common Core Math?
A
Attila_the_gorilla
Guest
There should come a time in the development of every tennis player when he will be able hit winners or unreturnables in many situations with a relatively high percentage. Say 70% odds on a mid-court floater if you have a decent put-away forehand or approach shot. As you improve, those percentages should keep going up.
In tennis those odds must be taken if you want to maximize your chance of winning matches.
As you improve, you will find more and more situations where you are comfortable going for winners or forcing attacking shots with a good chance of making them and actively winning points.
The trouble is that if a low level rec player has a very conservative mindset, he basically prevents himself from learning and improving. For him being defensive is not just a tactical decision or momentary adaptation to the situation on court, but his only option due to lack of skill.
If you want to improve, you must not be afraid of missing shots and temporarily losing matches. That's the only way to learn an attacking game. In a year or two, you'll be bagelling the pushers that used to beat you.
In tennis those odds must be taken if you want to maximize your chance of winning matches.
As you improve, you will find more and more situations where you are comfortable going for winners or forcing attacking shots with a good chance of making them and actively winning points.
The trouble is that if a low level rec player has a very conservative mindset, he basically prevents himself from learning and improving. For him being defensive is not just a tactical decision or momentary adaptation to the situation on court, but his only option due to lack of skill.
If you want to improve, you must not be afraid of missing shots and temporarily losing matches. That's the only way to learn an attacking game. In a year or two, you'll be bagelling the pushers that used to beat you.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I think CC has gotten a bad rap. I certainly agree with the concept of moving away from solely doing rote memorization and getting kids to think laterally and "outside the box"; I will fight tooth and nail, however, against someone who claims that every problem has no right or wrong answer [as opposed to just some problems, whose solution is very much open to interpretation and assumptions]. Some of the problems that highlight the shortcomings of CC were a bit difficult to figure out but that also could be because I learned how to do math a certain way and when the problem says I can't do it that way but have to do it another, I complain.
I've been tutoring math since HS but haven't adapted to CC...yet.
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
i kinda like the common core way... other than "math facts" it teaches relationships of numbers and number grouping (vs. wrote memorization of technique to do long mult/div)
Wise one
Hall of Fame
yesterday, played a retriever (which some folks incorrectly label as a "pusher", to somehow denigrate their ability to get alot of balls back),...
so this guy wasn't a "pusher" in my sense of the word (ie. bunty, poor technique - marked by short follow through, no spin, etc...). his strengths:
* decent fundamental groundstroke technique,
* consistent!
* short backswing, enabling him to better time hard hit balls; and redirect pace
* FAST! i mean like mosquito fast
weaknesses:
* didn't hit out consistently (especially on the run, or pulled forward)
* volley & overhead are so so (hard for me to exploit since i don't own a dink/drop shot type game)
first set... he was holding his own just getting *every* ball back... i honestly thought i was gonna blast through him (my typical pattern... bh exchange, until i can run around to hit a fh), but it wasn't working, as every "big shot" i hit was met with a high lobbish no-pace type ball... which after 3-4 shots, i'd end up missing trying to go bigger and/or aiming for smaller targets (or worse a poorly timed/executed drop shot that he ended up putting away/forcing an err from me).... in general my baseline game wasn't good enough to win ffrom the back court.
at 3-3, switched it up, and started attacking the net more... after putting away 3-4 overheads from behind the service line, he started "hitting out" trying to pass, which made him miss alot and/or gave me easy volleys to put away
eaked out a 6-4 win
second set, i completely changed things up even further, and chip&charged his serve, and s&v'd... really giving him no place to go with "safe" lobby-type-shots... again forcing him to "hit out" (where his technique would break down). additionally i was also no longer giving him any pace (ie. i think i played with a continental grip the entire set) for him to use (ie he had to generate pace to pass, force shots, etc... which meant a longer backswing, and/or faster swing, etc....)
won 6-0
other observations:
* despite winning 6-0, i don't enjoy the s&v/c&c game as much as i love bashing from the baseline
* alot of my baseline errs were from having too much time to think, and being lulled into complacency... s&v eliminates that... ie. almost "no time to think"... just execute... in general, for me (and many others - according to a couple psychology books), i perform best under the perfect balance of pressure (paceless shots kinda eliminate the pressure we feel vs. someone bashing heavy topspin balls at you)
moral of the story...
if you're losing from the baseline, against a retriever... your baseline-bashing-one-hit-wonders aren't good enough, no matter how good you think you look in the mirror
so practice your volleys and overheads, kiddies... and stop whining about retrievers
discuss (aka. beating a dead horse)!
Oh please, stop. Serve and volley is the way the game is supposed to be played!
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
mishaZ is that you? or maybe the other fella with the dreads?
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
T'would be a high compliment indeed if someone compared my volley to either.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I'm a pragmatist: whatever has to be done to teach the concepts so that they make sense and they stick. I've seen way too many students get lost in long division and completely lose the thread of the lesson.
Bender
G.O.A.T.
I've yet to put it to practice, but one thing I noticed is that a lot of retrievers that can't create their own pace but otherwise possess solid technique, good at redirecting, and a frustratingly good lob game do better against topspin players because the ball bounces higher, giving them time to get under the ball to hit a lob.
There's one guy who's always doing this to me, so one thing I want to try next time is come in behind slices rather than topspin approach shots, which sucks because I'm actually good at hitting approach shots, even off my shoelaces up the line.
Can't hit a lob if you can't get under the ball, no?
There's one guy who's always doing this to me, so one thing I want to try next time is come in behind slices rather than topspin approach shots, which sucks because I'm actually good at hitting approach shots, even off my shoelaces up the line.
Can't hit a lob if you can't get under the ball, no?
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D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
completely agree.
i understand the the complaints i hear about common core (ie. "just do it the way i was taught" - because the grouping and regrouping of stuff takes much longer than the "short cut" of how we were taught long mult/div)...
another thing you might find interesting is see how advanced math kids (for mult/div) do speed calculations... they first learn with an abacus (which i taught my kids to use), which is basically a way to physically represent grouping (but it's amazing how they can take that skillset, and speed it up to do long digit mult/div in a few seconds). it's akin to a pusher saying, "these bunty strokes are easier to learn/execute" but realize they can't hit the ball as fast as the "modern atp fh" folks can in the later stages of development.
Gazelle
G.O.A.T.
"Aggressive tennis all the way, even if I lose 6-0 6-0!"
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