Of female Open era all time greats which had strongest competition overall?
- Thread starter grafselesfan
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CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
Let me ask a question. For those of you who think Evert faced only past prime players do you think Navratilova was still a dangerous opponent at 32? Graf at 30? Evert herself at 32-34? You're answers should be yes. Then why isn't it conceivable that Court and King were still very dangerous in their early 30s? After all, these are all time greats we're talking about here and not journeywomen players.
NadalandFedererfan
Banned
Well I have seen you say many times that Graf had "no competition" until Seles. If I thought it was worth the effort I am sure could dig up almost those exact words from you many times. So I guess according to you even Navratilova from ages 30-32 was "no competition", even though this is the same Navratilova who won 16 of her 18 slams and reached 24 of her 27 slam finals from age 25 to 33. Yet somehow this can be true and yet a 33-35 year old Court who began her dominance at 19 and won her final slams at 31, and is coming out of retirement for only final stint after a 2nd pregnancy is real competition that Navratilova supposably wasnt. Yet a 33+ year old King on bad knees who won her final slam at 31 is real competition that Navratilova wasnt too.
Actually here is a quote from you right on this thread:
So it would be Graf's fault she was good in the late 80s that even a 30-32 year old very late developing Navratilova who had 8/9ths of her slam titles and slam finals from 25-33 couldnt "consistently challenge Steffi" yet you are expecting full due to be given to the competition provided by a 33+ year old former teen phenom Court and 33+ coming out of retirement King? I hope you are still not confused what the issue is here. For the record I dont think either Evert or Graf have even close to the toughest competition on this thread and think the excess # of votes for both compared to other players are ridiculous.
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CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
The quote is CONSISTENTLY challenge. A past prime Navratilova and Evert could still challenge Graf, just not CONSISTENTLY. Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario could challenge Graf, just not CONSISTENTLY. Sabatini could challenge Graf, just not CONSISTENTLY.
An over 30 Court and King couldn't CONSISTENTLY challenge Evert but were still dangerous, just like an over 30 Navratilova was still dangerous to Graf, just like Sanchez-Vicario was still dangerous to Graf, just like Sabatini was still dangerous to Graf even though they couldn't CONSISTENTLY challenge Graf like Seles could.
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CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
NadalandFedererfan
Banned
So you have now gone as far as to atleast admit Evert had nobody who could "consistently" challenge her during her domination. Yet Graf and other players competition is weak based on that and Evert's was still clearly the strongest of all despite that. I continue to be amused.
Also if former teen phenom Court was still in her prime at 31 in 1973 when she won 3 of 4 slams than what is the excuse of the very late developing Navratilova who won 16 of her 18 slams and reached 24 of her 27 finals from age 25 to 33 to be "past her prime" at only 31 and 32 in 1988 and 1989? I guess the excuse is Graf was kicking her butt so she was suddenly "past her prime", LOL! Navratilova won 67 out of 70 matches from around May 1989 to early 1990 and her only 3 losses were to Graf.
CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
I'd rather face Sanchez-Vicario and Sabatini (Graf) than Court and King and Navratilova (Evert) who are three of the very best ever. That's just me though.
You just don't like Evert, is all. It's ok.
NadalandFedererfan
Banned
I would rather face a 33-35 year old former teen phenom Court, 33-39 year old King on bad knees, and the grossly overweight underachieving version of Navratilova than a 30-32 year old late blooming Navratilova, Seles (minus 2.5 years), and a prime Sanchez Vicario. You are just a completely biased and delusional Evert fanatic though. Its ok.
For me it depends what kind of game I bring to the match, and what surface I am playing these folks on. I'd rather not meet all time greats like King, Court or Navratilova on their best surface with my Fort Lauderdale clay court ground strokes, no matter how you define their 'prime. I'd rather not meet prime Sanchez or Seles on a slow clay court no matter how many fewer slam titles they have under their sports bra.
NadalandFedererfan
Banned
This is a very good point and I agree with your accessment.
CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
An excellent point, thank you. How many of the majors were played on grass when Evert first started? And NadalandFedererfan agreed with your ASSESSment. Enough said.
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julesb
Banned
Graf and Evert had the worst competition of everyone on this list. Evert faced a bunch of washed up greats in their mid 30s or headcases like Goolagong and Wade, until Martina finally decided to drop her weight from 200 pounds. Graf's only competition was removed by a very sharp knife from her lover Gunther Parche. The poll results show alot of stupid people voting.
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Leublu tennis
Legend
A seven ....
conway
Banned
I voted for Justine Henin. She had to deal with both Williams sisters, Clijsters, Davenport, Seles at the end of her career, Mauresmo, Sharapova, Capriati. She didn't peak when almost nobody else was playing well as Serena often did.
Steffi Graf would be my 2nd choice for her 87-92 competition of Navratilova, Seles, peak Sabatini (by far the best player to win only 1 slam), Sanchez Vicario, Capriati, old but still strong Evert, Pierce, and a good supporting cast of players with Sukova, Fernandez, Garrison, Martinez, Zvereva, and others as well.
Evert would be my 3rd choice for being denied so many slams by GOATing Navratilova in 82-85 (even if the rest of the field sucked), and for facing a pretty strong and diverse field in the mid and late 70s.
Steffi Graf would be my 2nd choice for her 87-92 competition of Navratilova, Seles, peak Sabatini (by far the best player to win only 1 slam), Sanchez Vicario, Capriati, old but still strong Evert, Pierce, and a good supporting cast of players with Sukova, Fernandez, Garrison, Martinez, Zvereva, and others as well.
Evert would be my 3rd choice for being denied so many slams by GOATing Navratilova in 82-85 (even if the rest of the field sucked), and for facing a pretty strong and diverse field in the mid and late 70s.
conway
Banned
King's really good years of tennis were 1966, 1967, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973. Court's really good years of tennis were 1960, 1962, 1964, 1964, 1965, 1969, 1970, 1971 (but didn't finish the year), 1973. Court-King only really began to co exist a bit at the end of the Court-King reign. Many of the years one was dominant or won multiple slams the other either didn't even play any tennis that year, played only 1 of the 4 majors, or they didn't play in any important match all year. It seemed alternatively King was either taking time off for her butchered knees, another knee surgery, or for her build the WTA campaign, or Court was having another baby or opening another flower shop. Maybe they had a secret pact to do them at all opposing times so they wouldn't have to deal with each other at their best, lol!
kiki
Banned
Evert,Graf, Court and a tal below,Old Willis,Big Mo
kiki
Banned
And her owner Martina Hingis
conway
Banned
Goolagong won 4 of her slams at the Australian Open at the time it wasn't a real slam. Henin and Venus are way better than Goolagong. Hingis is probably better too. Heck you could even make a case for Davenport as she was year end #1 4 times, while Goolagong never was the #1 player for a year.
King and Evert are 12 years apart in age. Henin, Hingis, Venus, Serena, are all virtually the same age and peaked together, minus Henin and Hingis of course. They were much tougher competition for each other than aging and semi retired King was for Evert. Obviously Serena of 2001-today, Venus of 1999-2005, Hingis of 1997-2001, and Henin of 2001-2007 are far stronger than the 74-75, 77, versions of King and the other little bits of tennis she played (mostly only Wimbledon into her mid and late 30s) she showed up to play by then.
With Court and Evert the non mutual existence in any real sense of the word is even greater than King and Evert. The two had only 1 full year on tour together (1973). After Evert won her first slam (1974) she never played Court in a slam again (understandably as Court was basically retired already, although played just a little bit in 75 to wind up her career).
Navratilova being the GOAT btw is just a matter of opinion. I don't have a strong opinion on the topic but it is obvious these days many more people consider Graf the GOAT than Martina, so if there even was such thing as a factual GOAT (which there isn't, atleast in womens tennis) it would be Graf, and not Martina. In terms of stats (the most and perhaps only objective measure) Court is superior to Navratilova too, and in terms of public perception many now view Serena as better (which I totally disagree with and is based purely on hype and recency factor IMO, but it is only public perception and bias that elevates Navratilova so clearly above Court, so take your bit which method to go by).
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kiki
Banned
Prime Martina was also 78-79 boy, plus Goolagong,Court,King,Wade,Richey,Austin,Mandlikova,Young Graf,Seles,Sanchez,Sabatini plus Ruzici,Barker,Jausovec,Reid,Jaeger,Shriver,Sukova,Hanika,Turnbull as secondary,yet slamful or majorful winners
Not enough room for Evert competition, and both,Cevertfan and BTURNER Will tell you how big of an Evertian I am
conway
Banned
Navratilova was a late bloomer so she goes into a separate category than the others. Yes she was close to her best still until 32 or 33, and still formidable even after that until 35 or 36. However Graf and King followed the more normal career trajectory of a player, so this does not apply to them.
Graf like most others at 30 wasn't that good anymore. She only won the French Open being gifted through Hingis's meltdown. Her power and athleticsm were a patch on what she was just 3 years earlier. When she played the Williams sisters that year she often looked like a rag doll. She also made 1 last final at Wimbledon but looked utterly overpowered in 4 of her 7 matches (deSwaardt, Lucic, Venus, Davenport) on a surface she was utterly dominant and overpowering in her prime, and reached the final mostly through experience and goading the errors of her younger and less mature opponents. That French triumph was the only major title the last 3 years of her career, and she lost 3 of her 5 matches to Amanda Coetzer. She lost before the quarters of all but 3 of the slams she played after 1996. Look at her results and you will see she was losing to tons of journeywomen she lost to only once every 5 years from ages 17 to 27.
King in her 30s was only fairly good (no longer great) on the fastest grass at Wimbledon. Anywhere else was completely ineffective. On clay or hard courts by that point in time she was now a cardboard cutout for a top player, and she never played Australia much even in her prime anyway. Basically she was only a moderate danger at Wimbledon by then, and even there a top player would have to have a major brain cramp to lose to her at that point. Who did King beat in any major match other than grass court useless/back spasms/on the way to early retirement Austin at Wimbledon 82. That is it, she didn't even beat someone like Wade, Hana, or Goolagong in a really big match again as she was too diminished by that point to even ever have a win of that level in the last 7 years of her career.
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