3 wins isn't necessarily enough, but 3 consecutive "non-competitive" matches (as determined by the number of games won by the loser) would be enough. An older version of the USTA computer ratings system was patented, so is published and can be found with an online patent search.
Official 2022 ratings thread.
- Thread starter J011yroger
- Start date
3 wins isn't necessarily enough, but 3 consecutive "non-competitive" matches (as determined by the number of games won by the loser) would be enough. An older version of the USTA computer ratings system was patented, so is published and can be found with an online patent search.
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
3 matches gets you a C rating. If that rating is at or above the bump threshold, you get bumped. The bump threshold is lower than the strike threshold, so you could indeed get bumped without receiving any strikes.
Actually, the patent I was thinking of was the precursor for UTR not the USTA computer system. But the USTA computer system does borrow a lot from it. Very basically, consecutive non-competitive matches is the most important criteria for determining whether someone gets bumped up or down. https://uspto.report/patent/grant/7813821
Matthew ATX
Semi-Pro
Yea the strike threshold seems pretty high. I played a full year as a 4.0A. 13 league wins. 58 tournament wins. Managed to avoid getting a DQ. Just got bumped at the end of the year.
BustedString
Rookie
A few random thoughts after reading this:
1. DQ'ing after an Appeal ("A") rating is extremely rare. A true self-rate starts out at 0.0 and generates a full dynamic rating each match. An Appealed player ("A") comes in with a weighted dynamic so it's harder to get out of range. The LLC/DLC for our entire state said in their 20 years of managing leagues, they don't recall a single Appeal player being DQ'd. I'm sure it's happen but it's super rare because of weighted dynamic vs. 0.0.
2. Tennis Record is interesting but is inherently inaccurate at least in my Section (a blocked keyword covering Ohio, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana & Michigan). Unless you only play Mixed, at least in our section, your Mixed matches don't count at all yet they are calculated in the Tennis Record #'s. I'm having surgery for a long standing injury and played awfully since the pandemic started. I used to be a high-end 4.0. Right now, Tennis Record has me at like 3.567. But if you peel out the 7.0/8.0 matches, and only look at 4.0 from last year and this year, I have several 3.2 & 3.3 matches and only 2 matches over 3.5. If I take an average of my 4.0 matches it's like 3.3. I doubt I'm going to rate down, because my 2019 EOY rating included several wins at 4.0 Sectionals so I came in high, but Tennis Record is including some good mixed doubles results (played outside) when my real rating is going to be based on my horrible 4.0 results (played inside). I'm a much better outdoor player.
1. DQ'ing after an Appeal ("A") rating is extremely rare. A true self-rate starts out at 0.0 and generates a full dynamic rating each match. An Appealed player ("A") comes in with a weighted dynamic so it's harder to get out of range. The LLC/DLC for our entire state said in their 20 years of managing leagues, they don't recall a single Appeal player being DQ'd. I'm sure it's happen but it's super rare because of weighted dynamic vs. 0.0.
2. Tennis Record is interesting but is inherently inaccurate at least in my Section (a blocked keyword covering Ohio, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana & Michigan). Unless you only play Mixed, at least in our section, your Mixed matches don't count at all yet they are calculated in the Tennis Record #'s. I'm having surgery for a long standing injury and played awfully since the pandemic started. I used to be a high-end 4.0. Right now, Tennis Record has me at like 3.567. But if you peel out the 7.0/8.0 matches, and only look at 4.0 from last year and this year, I have several 3.2 & 3.3 matches and only 2 matches over 3.5. If I take an average of my 4.0 matches it's like 3.3. I doubt I'm going to rate down, because my 2019 EOY rating included several wins at 4.0 Sectionals so I came in high, but Tennis Record is including some good mixed doubles results (played outside) when my real rating is going to be based on my horrible 4.0 results (played inside). I'm a much better outdoor player.
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
When considering TR, we have to remember that it may not be trying to mimic USTA ratings in the first place. When we say TR is too low, the people who run TR may consider USTA to be too high. What is the reference standard? Depends on who you ask, I suppose. But I do know that TR and USTA ratings do not match up at all. I know guys who were undefeated at their level in USTA spring play and TR has them rated “below average” for their level. I know guys who have been bumped up by the USTA while sporting a TR rating of X.70 (below median).
And I agree about A rated players - I’ve never seen one get DQ’d. But I do see a lot of them get bumped up again at the next ratings cycle.
schmke
Legend
The description of why A's don't get DQ'd that often is correct, but A's do get DQ'd, it does happen, we have a member of TT that was an A and got DQ'd earlier this year.
But though of another way, in order for an auto-appeal to be granted, the player has to be barely over the threshold, e.g. a player ends the year at 3.55 and gets a 4.0C but appeals and gets a 3.5A. Not only is what @BustedString says above true, that the A has a starting point that "anchors" them in a way, but this player has also established that they are a 3.55 player. Since the strike threshold is quite a bit higher, if this player simply goes back to being a "3.55" player, it is really really unlikely they will get any strikes. They would have to improve their level of play from what they demonstrated the previous year and have their rating go higher to accumulate any strikes.
BustedString
Rookie
I agree with @Moveforwardalways that if TR isn't trying to mimic NTRP, then that's fine and in some ways very valid. As a sometimes-captain, it would be valuable to know that a player like me is a 3.7 in mixed, 3.3-3.4 at 4.0 and 3.8-3.9 at 8.5 Combo. I obviously have strengths and Tennis Record helps illustrate where I'm good and not. But if he's trying to sync with NTRP then he's bound to fail by including mixed. Theoretically you should be able to extrapolate that mixed results are likely to be the same as all others. But I hit the ball hard and handle pace well, this helps me in mixed and when I'm going up against 4.5's in 8.5 combo. But it's not so valuable at 4.0 singles where my worse than Andy Murray's hip is more of a factor. I love TR for it's insights but I wouldn't bet on it's rankings syncing for the top and bottom 20% of each level.
I'm sure A's bump up every year in other states. But in Wisconsin we just don't have that many players and pretty much zero shenanigans so we've never seen it. With that said, I'm interested to know if those A's bumping up do so because their C rating had like you know 4-5 matches behind it vs. someone who played 25 matches the year before. Like how weighted is the ranking? I've been told it's the same for all but if I were doing the algorithm, I'd make someone with 3-5 matches behind their ranking more vulnerable to an A bump than someone with 25.
I'm sure A's bump up every year in other states. But in Wisconsin we just don't have that many players and pretty much zero shenanigans so we've never seen it. With that said, I'm interested to know if those A's bumping up do so because their C rating had like you know 4-5 matches behind it vs. someone who played 25 matches the year before. Like how weighted is the ranking? I've been told it's the same for all but if I were doing the algorithm, I'd make someone with 3-5 matches behind their ranking more vulnerable to an A bump than someone with 25.
BeyondTheTape
Semi-Pro
at least this year there's not the time countdown widget on USTA website which caused an inordinate amount of website traffic ultimately crashing the site at the designated time.
"Sir everyone wants to know what time the ratings will come out, why dont we let them know this year?" Approved.
0015. "Sir the website has been down since the countdown expired at midnight. Next year lets keep it a mystery and then raise the cost of membership." Approved.
happy ratings eve to all who observe.
"Sir everyone wants to know what time the ratings will come out, why dont we let them know this year?" Approved.
0015. "Sir the website has been down since the countdown expired at midnight. Next year lets keep it a mystery and then raise the cost of membership." Approved.
happy ratings eve to all who observe.
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It will be interesting to see how the Southern Section is handled after so many bump-ups in 2019. Our entire 4.5 team got bumped in 2019, but then almost everyone was able to appeal back down, resulting in a ton of appeal-rated 4.5s playing against one another in 2021. Hopefully this year won't be a bloodbath again.
BustedString
Rookie
Is it tomorrow or tonight at 8:30 PM? I see someone counting down the hours which, by my math, would appear to be 20:30 CT today but we are being told tomorrow.
Matthew ATX
Semi-Pro
A lot of the 4.5's that got bumped in 2019 think they're coming back down. I don't think so, because if they do, what was the point of the quite obviously intentional level alteration that USTA did with Texas?
BeyondTheTape
Semi-Pro
your guess is as good as mine. each year i wait for my text, groupme's, or this thread to explode until i know.
Yes, you can click the appeal button as soon as the ratings come out.
schmke
Legend
My guess is it is midnight 12/1, or 9:00 PM PST tonight.
I believe auto-appeals can be done as soon as they are published.
silverwyvern4
Semi-Pro
You're actually better outdoor than indoor or you just drop off less when moving outdoors compared to other people?
silverwyvern4
Semi-Pro
Do you get one appeal per lifetime?
ATX Tennis
Rookie
i think you can appeal every time you’re bumped. It’s just a quick check to see how close to the threshold you are.
schmke
Legend
No.
But certain players aren't eligible to appeal, notably those that went to Nationals or those that were DQ'd in the prior year.
schmke
Legend
You don't have to be bumped up to be eligible to appeal.
time_fly
Hall of Fame
Leaving aside ringers, my impression is that self-rated players with modest numbers of matches like 4 to 6 tend to get bumped more than C-rated players with roughly similar statistics for the same season. Probably because the C-rated player has more past matches that are still weighing slightly into their ratings.
If I remember last year correctly, updates started appearing sometime between 12:30am and 1:00am Eastern time, and there appeared to be rolling updates to the database for the next hour or two. Not that I stayed up and watched.
Hopefully people will be online here tonight for another "ratings update watch party."
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ttwarrior1
Hall of Fame
2021 Year-End Ratings to be published
December 1, 2021!
To check your "New" rating, login in to TennisLink using your password. Enter your USTA Member # under "Find NTRP Rating Info".
If you wish to appeal your "Year-End" rating, see instructions below "Automated Appeal (Computer) or Self-Rate Appeal (Up)"
VALID NTRP COMPUTER RATINGS
USTA National did not run the Year-End Ratings for 2020 leagues due to all national championships and many leagues being cancelled.
2022 League Registrations will utilize your 2021 Year-End Rating or your current Self-rating.
To find your current rating, click here "Find NTRP Rating Info" in TennisLink, input your USTA # or name to view your rating. If you wish to appeal your rating, you must login using your USTA # and password and follow the prompts as they appear. The appeal is an automated mathematical calculation that is computed immediately.
2022 Championship Year
Players 59 years of age or younger will have a valid NTRP rating for three years of not playing league. Example; if you played Adult League in 2020, you will still have a valid rating for the 2022 league championship year. If your rating is from 2019 or older, you will have to self-rate.
Players who will be 60 years or older during the 2022 championship should have a valid rating if last played in 2020.
TennisLink will automatically remove expired computer and self ratings thereby allowing individuals to self rate. When self-rating, you will automatically be given the NTRP rating you last held in TennisLink. Don't worry.....you can appeal that rating, if you want to. While on the page where it has given you the rating level, click on "APPEAL RATING". This will then allow you to complete a questionnaire and to explain why you think you need to be a level lower (or two) than you last played.
December 1, 2021!
To check your "New" rating, login in to TennisLink using your password. Enter your USTA Member # under "Find NTRP Rating Info".
If you wish to appeal your "Year-End" rating, see instructions below "Automated Appeal (Computer) or Self-Rate Appeal (Up)"
VALID NTRP COMPUTER RATINGS
USTA National did not run the Year-End Ratings for 2020 leagues due to all national championships and many leagues being cancelled.
2022 League Registrations will utilize your 2021 Year-End Rating or your current Self-rating.
To find your current rating, click here "Find NTRP Rating Info" in TennisLink, input your USTA # or name to view your rating. If you wish to appeal your rating, you must login using your USTA # and password and follow the prompts as they appear. The appeal is an automated mathematical calculation that is computed immediately.
2022 Championship Year
Players 59 years of age or younger will have a valid NTRP rating for three years of not playing league. Example; if you played Adult League in 2020, you will still have a valid rating for the 2022 league championship year. If your rating is from 2019 or older, you will have to self-rate.
Players who will be 60 years or older during the 2022 championship should have a valid rating if last played in 2020.
TennisLink will automatically remove expired computer and self ratings thereby allowing individuals to self rate. When self-rating, you will automatically be given the NTRP rating you last held in TennisLink. Don't worry.....you can appeal that rating, if you want to. While on the page where it has given you the rating level, click on "APPEAL RATING". This will then allow you to complete a questionnaire and to explain why you think you need to be a level lower (or two) than you last played.
ttwarrior1
Hall of Fame
NTRP APPEALS
Below is an overview of information on the four types of NTRP appeals.
Self-Rate Appeal (Down)
A player who self-rates and believes that the minimum rating assigned to him or her is too high is immediately offered the opportunity to appeal this rating. These appeals are reviewed by USTA Southern’s Self Rate Appeals Committee.
If you have already left the self-rate page on the national site, follow these instructions on how to appeal your assigned self-rating:
1. Login to TennisLink (http://tennislink.usta.com/Leagues) using your email and password.
2. Click on the link that says “Appeal Rating.” This will be in the top right corner of screen (below your actual listed rating)
3. Complete the Online Self-Rate Assessment Form and submit.
4. Decision from the Southern’s Self-Rate Appeals Committee will be sent to player (by e-mail).
Automated Appeal (Computer) or Self-Rate Appeal (Up)
All computer-rated (“C”) players and Mixed-Exclusive rated (“M”) players will have the opportunity to attempt an automated computer appeal of their year-end rating. If a player’s year-end rating is within the applicable range for an appeal down, the player will be allowed to appeal down. Players with a benchmark rating (“B”) will not have the opportunity to appeal.
Any self-rated player who wishes to appeal their rating UP may also follow these instructions.
Follow these instructions for appealing your “C” or “M” year-end rating:
60 Years of Age and Over Appeal
You will be granted an appeal of your NTRP rating if you meet the following requirements:
2.05E Appeals of Players 60 or Over. A player may appeal their rating at any time if they have reached the minimum age.
A player who will reach the minimum age during the next calendar year and appeals their rating without registering at the same time for a team that will begin play in the next Championship Year, will have their appeal evaluated based on their current age.
A player who will reach the minimum age during the next calendar year and appeals their rating when registering for a team that will begin play in the next Championship Year, will have their appeal evaluated based on reaching the minimum age. Such player shall have reached the required minimum age prior to or during the calendar year in which such player participates in his or her first local league per 1.04E(3).
2.05E(1) Any player who is 60 to 64 years of age or older prior to, or during, the calendar year in which such player plays his or her first local league match and has achieved the same rating level or lower for his or her three most recent year-end ratings, without benefit of appeal of the player’s year-end rating level, if promoted will automatically be granted an appeal (A rating) of their current rating back to their previous valid year-end rating level, subject to 2.05E(5) below. NTRP Dynamic Disqualification procedures as outlined in 2.04B(3) apply.
2.05E(2) Any player who is 65 to 69 years of age and has not been granted an appeal of their year-end rating level in the last three years, if promoted, will automatically be granted an appeal (A rating) of their current rating back to their previous valid year-end rating level, subject to 2.05E(5) below. NTRP Dynamic Disqualification procedures as outlined in 2.04B(3) apply.
2.05E(3) Any player who is 70 to 79 years of age and has not been granted an appeal of their year-end rating level in the last three years, will automatically be granted an appeal (A rating) of their current rating to the next lower level, subject to 2.05E(5) below. NTRP Dynamic Disqualification procedures as outlined in 2.04B(3) apply.
2.05E(4) Any player who is age 80 or older and has not been granted an appeal of their year-end rating level in the last five years, will automatically be granted an appeal (A rating) of their current rating to the next lower level. NTRP Dynamic Disqualification procedures as outlined in 2.04B(3) apply.
2.05E(5) Any player who is clearly above level under the applicable Computer Methodology procedures, as defined in the Glossary, will be denied an appeal of his or her year-end rating under 2.05E(1), 2.05E(2) and 2.05E(3).
MEDICAL APPEALS
A medical appeal is a formal, written request from a player for reconsideration of his/her NTRP Rating based on a permanent, disabling illness or injury that has occurred since the player generated the year-end or early-start NTRP Rating. USTA League Regulation 2.05D states, “If an intervening, permanently disabling injury or illness indicates that a player’s current computer rating may be too high, the player may request a medical appeal of such rating in accordance with NTRP Medical Appeal Procedures.”
Below is an overview of information on the four types of NTRP appeals.
Self-Rate Appeal (Down)
A player who self-rates and believes that the minimum rating assigned to him or her is too high is immediately offered the opportunity to appeal this rating. These appeals are reviewed by USTA Southern’s Self Rate Appeals Committee.
If you have already left the self-rate page on the national site, follow these instructions on how to appeal your assigned self-rating:
1. Login to TennisLink (http://tennislink.usta.com/Leagues) using your email and password.
2. Click on the link that says “Appeal Rating.” This will be in the top right corner of screen (below your actual listed rating)
3. Complete the Online Self-Rate Assessment Form and submit.
4. Decision from the Southern’s Self-Rate Appeals Committee will be sent to player (by e-mail).
Automated Appeal (Computer) or Self-Rate Appeal (Up)
All computer-rated (“C”) players and Mixed-Exclusive rated (“M”) players will have the opportunity to attempt an automated computer appeal of their year-end rating. If a player’s year-end rating is within the applicable range for an appeal down, the player will be allowed to appeal down. Players with a benchmark rating (“B”) will not have the opportunity to appeal.
Any self-rated player who wishes to appeal their rating UP may also follow these instructions.
Follow these instructions for appealing your “C” or “M” year-end rating:
- Sign in to TennisLink (http://tennislink.usta.com/Leagues) using your password.
- Once logged in, click link at the top right side of “My Tennis Page” or search for your name by inputting USTA # in “Find NTRP Rating Information” and hit appeal button.
- It will ask you if you want to appeal up or down
- Confirm what you want and hit submit. The computer will tell you right away if your “C” or “M” year-end rating is within the applicable range for an appeal.
60 Years of Age and Over Appeal
You will be granted an appeal of your NTRP rating if you meet the following requirements:
2.05E Appeals of Players 60 or Over. A player may appeal their rating at any time if they have reached the minimum age.
A player who will reach the minimum age during the next calendar year and appeals their rating without registering at the same time for a team that will begin play in the next Championship Year, will have their appeal evaluated based on their current age.
A player who will reach the minimum age during the next calendar year and appeals their rating when registering for a team that will begin play in the next Championship Year, will have their appeal evaluated based on reaching the minimum age. Such player shall have reached the required minimum age prior to or during the calendar year in which such player participates in his or her first local league per 1.04E(3).
2.05E(1) Any player who is 60 to 64 years of age or older prior to, or during, the calendar year in which such player plays his or her first local league match and has achieved the same rating level or lower for his or her three most recent year-end ratings, without benefit of appeal of the player’s year-end rating level, if promoted will automatically be granted an appeal (A rating) of their current rating back to their previous valid year-end rating level, subject to 2.05E(5) below. NTRP Dynamic Disqualification procedures as outlined in 2.04B(3) apply.
2.05E(2) Any player who is 65 to 69 years of age and has not been granted an appeal of their year-end rating level in the last three years, if promoted, will automatically be granted an appeal (A rating) of their current rating back to their previous valid year-end rating level, subject to 2.05E(5) below. NTRP Dynamic Disqualification procedures as outlined in 2.04B(3) apply.
2.05E(3) Any player who is 70 to 79 years of age and has not been granted an appeal of their year-end rating level in the last three years, will automatically be granted an appeal (A rating) of their current rating to the next lower level, subject to 2.05E(5) below. NTRP Dynamic Disqualification procedures as outlined in 2.04B(3) apply.
2.05E(4) Any player who is age 80 or older and has not been granted an appeal of their year-end rating level in the last five years, will automatically be granted an appeal (A rating) of their current rating to the next lower level. NTRP Dynamic Disqualification procedures as outlined in 2.04B(3) apply.
2.05E(5) Any player who is clearly above level under the applicable Computer Methodology procedures, as defined in the Glossary, will be denied an appeal of his or her year-end rating under 2.05E(1), 2.05E(2) and 2.05E(3).
MEDICAL APPEALS
A medical appeal is a formal, written request from a player for reconsideration of his/her NTRP Rating based on a permanent, disabling illness or injury that has occurred since the player generated the year-end or early-start NTRP Rating. USTA League Regulation 2.05D states, “If an intervening, permanently disabling injury or illness indicates that a player’s current computer rating may be too high, the player may request a medical appeal of such rating in accordance with NTRP Medical Appeal Procedures.”
BustedString
Rookie
I have a terrible serve and, in Wisconsin especially, going outside means the big servers have to deal with sun, wind, cars, etc., so it equalizes it vs. indoors where they can drop bombs. Also, the indoor courts at most of the clubs need to be resurfaced and so they play a bit glassy and it negates some of my spin. Plus I just like being outside!
BustedString
Rookie
I am guessing this is answered somewhere, but will 2020 matches be included in the 2021 NTRP rankings? I am assuming so but IDK how that works with no advancement, etc. It won't affect me too much but it would be better without.
schmke
Legend
The USTA has said yes, 2020 matches will be included in the 2021 year-end ratings.
ttwarrior1
Hall of Fame
USTA National did not run the Year-End Ratings for 2020 leagues due to all national championships and many leagues being cancelled
!<-_->!
Hall of Fame
Not sure if I'm reading this right, but since it's saying ratings from 2019 or older will drop off, does that mean that if I played only 2 matches this year overall, there's a chance I'll need to self rate myself for 2022?
I think that's a typo. Ratings are valid for 3 years, so 12/31/19, 20 (although there are none), and 21 ratings should be valid and 12/31/18 ratings should drop off.
schmke
Legend
You'd "think" it is a typo. But it is the USTA ...
Correct. Otherwise I'd have just said "it is a typo". LOL.
silverwyvern4
Semi-Pro
Can you look up your teammates new Ratings? How?
silverwyvern4
Semi-Pro
Lucky west coast people dont have to stay up late
winchestervatennis
Hall of Fame
I’m the same as you but swapped. 19 rating, 2 matches in 20 then 0 matches 21. My guess would be self rate after 3 years/ratings without generating a rating. In other words 21, 22, and 23 so self rate for 24. Just a guess on my part, but i think it would be optimistic to think you can self rate as early as 22.
!<-_->!
Hall of Fame
Got it. Thanks. Guess I'll know for certain in a few more hours. Just being impatient.
QugoTennis
New User
So TennisRecord has me getting bumped up to the next level and says "very high" next to the new rating. Probably a distinction without a difference, but just curious if that means high likelihood of a bump-up or being bumped high into the next level.
ncgator
Rookie
Yes, you can use the Advanced Search option under Find NTRP Rating Info on TennisLink or you can also just enter your team #.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Just finished 3.5 hours of tennis including an hour + of drills and practice with one and a half sets.
Got a nice 14 year Scotch.
Chilling and winding down. Should be 10p (12a NY Time) If that is correct, so another 30 mins. Will probably just read up and see if that is true.
Cheers.
Got a nice 14 year Scotch.
Chilling and winding down. Should be 10p (12a NY Time) If that is correct, so another 30 mins. Will probably just read up and see if that is true.
Cheers.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
I'm really tired guys.
I don't think I am going to last 28 more minutes.
Mrs. Jolly is probably going to wake me up in 29 minutes if I fall asleep though.
J
I don't think I am going to last 28 more minutes.
Mrs. Jolly is probably going to wake me up in 29 minutes if I fall asleep though.
J
I have a feeling us east coasters are going to wait up for a big disappointment.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Tuesday is my day off, only did 5 hours.
Not going to make it to midnight.
Fading fast Jolly is fading fast.
J
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
So if I get an M rating can I play as much mixed doubles as I want at that level and not worry about a DQ?
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
You guys are waiting to see if you got bumped aren't ya, and you don't want to go up? Come on, go to sleep, play up and for the sake of the integrity of tennis don't appeal. Unless something tragic happened to you health-wise and for that, thoughts and prayers.
Correct, but S and A-rated players also have no need for concern playing mixed doubles…no dynamic disqualification from mixed doubles.
schmke
Legend
Yep, but that is the case even if you are self-rated and play only Mixed. You can only get DQ'd playing Adult. And if you get an M and play Adult, you'll have to self-rate again and so would be subject to strikes. But have at it in Mixed.
MegacedU
Professional
Nah, in fact I hope I stay the same. There’s a particular player I feel is critical to the success of my teams and I need her to stay put. I’m trying to make it to nationals for every available league this year! A USTA golden slam of sorts.
