OHBH: bend or straight arm?

[BillKid]

When initiating their OHBH stroke and doing the "unit turn", most players have their elbow bent and get the arm straight later (eg Federer, Dimitrov, Henin, Wawrinka), whereas some players have their arm straight from the beginning (eg Thiem).
Does the Thiem-like favor a flat shot? Are both techniques equal?

 

[StringSnapper]

Dunno, thiem gets a lot of topspin on his BH. I think what matters most is that the arm is straight at contact (apparently a bent ohbh at contact is a recipe for tennis elbow). Perhaps thiem keeps his arm straight all the way just in case - since he uses a babolat!!

 

[ChaelAZ]

I have a slightly bent arm myself and get good power and spin or flat. Not that I am a model of BH's, but I see it akin to bent v. straight on forehand, with it being a preference.

 

[Chadillac]

My take back on the 1h is with the left hand (on throat so i can feel face) so my elbow has to be close. Id have to take a look at theim to see what your saying.
Maybe your seeing his higher racket head take back and see how that favors the flat (more level path).

Technique is based on individual, some work, some dont. It all comes down to if it works for you

 

[wangs78]

A bent elbow allows for greater acceleration, because you'll have the rotational speed of your forearm as well as your shoulder and torso. Some plays may even add wrist action as well. Obviously, the more moving pieces the more things that can go wrong.

 

[Chas Tennis]

When initiating their OHBH stroke and doing the "unit turn", most players have their elbow bent and get the arm straight later (eg Federer, Dimitrov, Henin, Wawrinka), whereas some players have their arm straight from the beginning (eg Thiem).
Does the Thiem-like favor a flat shot? Are both techniques equal?

Do you mean the backward or forward 'unit turn'.

This is for the forward upper body turn.

The very beginning of the initial acceleration forward is an interesting time. I believe that the chest presses on the upper arm for the main forward acceleration for the best one hand backhands.

At first, I had thought that the upper arm was pressed tight by the chest before forward swing motion started. In a thread on these subjects, Fxaminator1 said that was not necessary and that the chest could move a small distance to press on the upper arm. His view seemed to fit the videos. https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...art-forward-swing.462997/page-3#post-10929307

The exact timing details of the close up sequence including when and how the elbow straightens is a good subject for study. Players strokes have different features as you take a closer look.

Here is a Henin backhand. It would be better to have seen the elbow earlier. As her upper body causes her chest to press on her upper arm - how much is 'straight' elbow and how much is 'bent' elbow? Her arm has some elbow bend earlier but how much does it have during the strongest acceleration forces?

Look at her stronger backhands such as the one at 34 seconds. A lot of the forward stroke starts with the elbow near straight and soon the elbow straightens.

Is Gasquet's elbow 'bent' or 'straight' during the main acceleration forward? Do words describe this complex motion?

Single frame on Vimeo - click Vimeo, click full screen, hold down the SHIFT KEY, use the ARROW KEYS.

This subject needs illustrations - high speed video frames - because the exact time and extent of 'elbow bending' has to be specified. Thiem has a powerful backhand and if he starts it with a completely straight elbow that is an interesting point. But if he has his chest pressing on his upper arm when the main acceleration and forces occur maybe straight elbow is just an option for the same pace backhand or, on the other hand, maybe the straight elbow is a pace enhancement.?....to be determined.

What is the elbow extension during the main acceleration forward? I have seen some bending with Gasquet, Wawrinka and Henin but I think that the elbow might be straight/near straight/locked? during the main acceleration forward. ? Estimating acceleration forces from high speed 2D videos is not a 'measurement' but more just an interpretation.

 

[Enga]

I think the only reason to do a bent arm is for disguise, because it feels easier to hit a slice from that position. But also, it does tend to lead to a more relaxed arm, as opposed to bringing it fully back straight, the arm will have a bit of tension in it to maintain that position. But I also thinking bringing it fully back straight would make it easier to hit the ball flat.

 

[Notirouswithag]

I always bend my elbow slightly and then extend it forward on contact

 

[BillKid]

Do you mean the backward or forward 'unit turn'.

This is for the forward upper body turn.

The very beginning of the initial acceleration forward is an interesting time. I believe that the chest presses on the upper arm for the main forward acceleration for the best one hand backhands.

At first, I had thought that the upper arm was pressed tight by the chest before forward swing motion started. In a thread on these subjects, Fxaminator1 said that was not necessary and that the chest could move a small distance to press on the upper arm. His view seemed to fit the videos. https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...art-forward-swing.462997/page-3#post-10929307

The exact timing details of the close up sequence including when and how the elbow straightens is a good subject for study. Players strokes have different features as you take a closer look.

Here is a Henin backhand. It would be better to have seen the elbow earlier. As her upper body causes her chest to press on her upper arm - how much is 'straight' elbow and how much is 'bent' elbow? Her arm has some elbow bend earlier but how much does it have during the strongest acceleration forces?

Look at her stronger backhands such as the one at 34 seconds. A lot of the forward stroke starts with the elbow near straight and soon the elbow straightens.

Is Gasquet's elbow 'bent' or 'straight' during the main acceleration forward? Do words describe this complex motion?

Single frame on Vimeo - click Vimeo, click full screen, hold down the SHIFT KEY, use the ARROW KEYS.

This subject needs illustrations - high speed video frames - because the exact time and extent of 'elbow bending' has to be specified. Thiem has a powerful backhand and if he starts it with a completely straight elbow that is an interesting point. But if he has his chest pressing on his upper arm when the main acceleration and forces occur maybe straight elbow is just an option for the same pace backhand or, on the other hand, maybe the straight elbow is a pace enhancement.?....to be determined.

What is the elbow extension during the main acceleration forward? I have seen some bending with Gasquet, Wawrinka and Henin but I think that the elbow might be straight/near straight/locked? during the main acceleration forward. ? Estimating acceleration forces from high speed 2D videos is not a 'measurement' but more just an interpretation.

Thank you for making my question more interesting than it was
Really appreciate your deep analysis and detailed answer
My question was more about the backward unit turn
Your answer make me think that Henin and Wavrinka OHBH may be particularly difficult to replicate because they seem to open the shoulders a lot, which is IMO a common source of error in intermediate players

 

[FiReFTW]

I think bent elbow makes fore more loose arm and easier effortless power, with a straight arm it feels more tight, but with a bent arm the arm is very relaxed and stroke fluid.

 

[Morch Us]

I think finding the right balance of power/spin and accuracy is the key for OHBH. I would think a bend arm should give a bit more added wipp when extending it to contact, but probably less moving parts maybe better for accuracy. Same with opening shoulder and extreme takeback. Well.... but again no-one can say Thiem does not have enough power on his backhand.

I also think that it depends on the physic of the player. Some players may have really strong shoulders, some may have strong upperbody/chest, some strong arms/knees/flexes. So probably pros tune it up to their own strength. For some, the extra power from opening chest may not do much, and probably the trade off is probably not worth.

Your answer make me think that Henin and Wavrinka OHBH may be particularly difficult to replicate because they seem to open the shoulders a lot, which is IMO a common source of error in intermediate players

 

[NuBas]

Could have been the way they were taught or just personally comfortable. I know Thiem used to have a 2-handed backhand so perhaps he kept something familiar when he made transition.

 

[iChen]

I think bent elbow makes fore more loose arm and easier effortless power, with a straight arm it feels more tight, but with a bent arm the arm is very relaxed and stroke fluid.

Uh well the arm should be straight or at least straightened as you start the forward swing.

 

[iChen]

I'm guessing that whip is also a bit with wrist. I don't know if bent arm into straightening while you take a forward swing helps but bending a little on take back helps a little. I don't think a bent arm while swinging helps though.

 

[FiReFTW]

I'm guessing that whip is also a bit with wrist. I don't know if bent arm into straightening while you take a forward swing helps but bending a little on take back helps a little. I don't think a bent arm while swinging helps though.

And who said anything about swinging with a bent arm?

 

[iChen]

And who said anything about swinging with a bent arm?

No one but either way doesn't matter. Just because bent works for you to feel relaxed straight might feel more relaxed for someone else.

Some start the swing straight, some a little more bent.

 

[Chas Tennis]

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Your answer make me think that Henin and Wavrinka OHBH may be particularly difficult to replicate because they seem to open the shoulders a lot, which is IMO a common source of error in intermediate players

I never know what 'open the shoulders' means. Do you mean at impact or in the follow through?

 

[iChen]

I never know what 'open the shoulders' means. Do you mean at impact or in the follow through?

At impact are you opening your shoulders and sort of opening your chest. Also the direction of where your chest is facing too I guess.

 

[FiReFTW]

No one but either way doesn't matter. Just because bent works for you to feel relaxed straight might feel more relaxed for someone else.

Some start the swing straight, some a little more bent.

Its a different technique, hence one has advantages and disadvantages, and the other does aswells, just because it works for someone doesn't mean its not different, bent arm will provide more effortless power, straight arm will provide more control and consistency, thats my take on it based on using some common sense and seeing what I see from people using both.

 

[iChen]

Its a different technique, hence one has advantages and disadvantages, and the other does aswells, just because it works for someone doesn't mean its not different, bent arm will provide more effortless power, straight arm will provide more control and consistency, thats my take on it based on using some common sense and seeing what I see from people using both.

Are we talking about how you hold the racquet on back swing or unit turn? Cause you're just doing what's probably natural and comfy for you...you're straightening out the arm quickly as you begin the forward swing regardless.

 

[FiReFTW]

Are we talking about how you hold the racquet on back swing or unit turn? Cause you're just doing what's probably natural and comfy for you...you're straightening out the arm quickly as you begin the forward swing regardless.

And that straightening will add more effortless power, but make it a bit harder to time it as well since there are more different moving parts involved, its like you were throwing a ball with a completely straight arm, or with a bent arm that straightens, its only logical that you will have greater effortless power with a bent arm straightening it, but you will be more consistent and accurate if you have a straight arm all the way through.

 

[iChen]

And that straightening will add more effortless power, but make it a bit harder to time it as well since there are more different moving parts involved, its like you were throwing a ball with a completely straight arm, or with a bent arm that straightens, its only logical that you will have greater effortless power with a bent arm straightening it, but you will be more consistent and accurate if you have a straight arm all the way through.

I'm just curious on when you talk about straightening, when you think it's happening. When do you do it?

Cause I've seen slow mo of Wawrinka for example, since his one hand is so famous, his arm is straightened as he begins swing. It's straightened from his elbow bent from holding, straightened by dropping racquet, beginning swing with a straightened arm. I don't see how this straightening generates much power but maybe you straighten out at a later time.

 

[Chas Tennis]

At impact are you opening your shoulders and sort of opening your chest. Also the direction of where your chest is facing too I guess.

I see a lot of upper body turn here. The time scale on the bottom shows milliseconds before impact, it stops at impact and stays "0 ms".

When does he start 'opening' his shoulders?

Does he stop opening his shoulders at any time before the follow through?

The terms 'open' and 'closed' are clearer when used for racket facing up and down. Faced pointing down is 'closed' and face pointing up is 'open'.

But if you just refer to a frame of video everybody can see what you mean along with a lot of other information, a picture being worth a thousand words..........

 

[iChen]

I see a lot of upper body turn here. The time scale on the bottom shows milliseconds before impact, it stops at impact and stays "0 ms".

When does he start opening his shoulders?

Does he stop at some time before the follow through?

The term open and closed is clearer when used for racket facing up and down.

But if you just refer to a frame of video everybody can see what you mean along with a lot of other information, a picture being worth a thousand words..........

You're sort of opening your shoulders at impact and after. Like Wawrinka for example will at impact open his chest so to speak, and sort of press his shoulders together and open his chest more.