Ok..need help yet again *sigh*

[smiley74]

I can't figure out why my bicep/elbow/forearm on my hitting arm hurts after I play. I know my forehand mechanics are ok and my backhand (one handed) still needs work. I think I am "pushing" the ball to much but how do I fix that?????

Please help as I am going through advil like it is candy!

The sad thing is that I have asked 2 pros and neither has an answer for me after seeing me hit. :-(

I use a Prince 03 blacksport....

So, if I am pushing too much what signs tell you that you are doing it and how do you fix it?

Thanks!

 

[takl23]

Is your grip too big/small? Maybe the racket isn't heavy enough for you or perhaps too heavy?


Cheers,

Tim

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Bicep!!! Perhaps your racket bag is too heavy.:-? The bicep is a pulling/lifting muscle & not used all that much in tennis to generate power. Do you use an unusual amount of forearm supination (opposite of pronation) in any of your strokes?

What part of the elbow bothers you -- lateral or medial part?

Perhaps you are gripping your racket too tightly. You should hold your racket very loosely most of the time (95% or more). Your grip should only tighten as you accelerate the racket forward (or upward on the serve). As you follow-thru, your grip should once again relax.

 

[Cindysphinx]

In addition to what has been said, when was the last time you strung your racket?

What did your pro say about this problem? When I had elbow pain, I asked my pro and he determined what I was doing wrong pretty quickly (breaking wrist/dropping racket head on FH takeback). Then it was just a matter of being aware of it and working to create better habits.

1HBH hit incorrectly can really put you in a world of hurt, I've heard.

[edit: Whoops! I missed the part about already having asked your pros.]

Cindy -- whose entire arm and shoulder are hurting from raking wet leaves, not tennis

 

[downdaline]

If you have sound technique then it's not from that area, i hope - that part's the hardest to change. Off centre hits of a topspin 1HBH can hurt your arm if you do it often enough.

Firstly, it could be overwork. If you play too often and hit really hard, it'll hurt regardless of technique.

Second, it could be your equipment. Your racquet may be stiff and you're using stiff strings. However, seeing as how u're using a Speedport Black, it shouldnt be the case, it's pretty comfortable. What strings are you using and what tension?

I agree that it may be the grip. Too small a grip means that your muscles have to contract and flex more to grip it properly than compared to a large grip. You might want to try adding one or two layers of overgrip to enlarge the grip and see if that takes the pain away.

 

[smiley74]

Thanks for replies. I am trying to talk myself into the fact that i am pushing since I just invested $400 in racquets! However, I really don't think I am. *sigh* My pros said my forehand is fine and my backhand needs work but I'm not doing anything glaring that would mess up my arm. I do hit a 1HBH. I hit fine for hitting flat but I need work on getting more topspin..

I do play often and hit hard with a lot of pace.

However, even if I play for 30 minutes it is killing. I just can't stand it anymore. It hurts SOOOOOOO bad. :evil:

The stiffness is pretty high at 70. I am using the prince black lightning and tension it came with...whatever that is! LOL

I did that grip check thing and I could get my thumb pefectly in there without squeezing or isolating it.

Systemic..um, not sure! I try to hit correctly and my pros never commented on any kind of weird pronation of my forearm. The pain is all around my elbow..top, bottom, under, and over! :shock:

I am thinking of demoing a racquet called Head metallix 4. I am definitely NOT touching my two prince racquets. I have a 1 1/2 hour lesson tomorrow and took my daily advil/tylenol before bed.......

Totally bummed out here.

 

[Cindysphinx]

A couple of things.

If it hurts, you should take some time off. Seriously. You do not want this problem to become chronic.

Second, I would re-string with different string and different tension. Someone else can advise you, but I use Wilson Sensation, as this was recommended to me to ward off tennis elbow. I am also using a lower tension to increase the sweet spot so I get less vibration from off-center hits.

Third, consider how and when you are taking advil and tylenol. I'm no doctor, but this is how it was explained to me by my OS.

Tylenol is for pain. It won't help with inflammation and so is not a good choice. It can also fry your liver.

Advil/Ibuprofen used to be a prescription anti-inflammatory a long time ago. The prescription dose was 4 tablets 3 x a day. When it became over-the-counter, the recommended dose was 1-2 tablets. That lower dose provides pain relief, but it doesn't do much in the way of controlling inflammation. If you take the prescription dose for long enough, you will have swiss cheese where your stomach used to be, so you need to be selective on when you use it. I would not mix tylenol with advil, nor would I start creating new and interesting combinations like advil and aleve.

So. If I'm having a problem (right now, bad shoulder and plantar faschitis), I will take 3-4 Advil at least one hour before a match with a ton of food and water. This gets me through the match and prevents further inflammation. Then I try not to take it again until my next match days later, and if I rest enough I probably won't need it at all. I would never take Advil before bed; tried it once and had more stomach irritation than usual.

Also, before Advil people used ice. Get a couple of large gel packs and keep them in the freezer. Ice everything that hurts within one hour of playing, 10-20 minutes max. This will help you keep the Advil to a minimum.

It does sound like you might be overtraining. It also sounds like you are probably trying to hit too hard but may not have developed the skill to use your body and so are instead just using your arm. If this doesn't get better with rest, you really might want to see an Orthopedic Surgeon who specializes in sports medicine. If nothing is seriously wrong, he or she will probably tell you to rest it.

So rest it already and save the co-pay!

 

[smiley74]

Thanks,

Downthe line and Cindy!

I will recheck grip again.

Cindy, I just can't bring myslef to not play! It's like a coffee addiction. If you don't have that one cup to start your day you are grumpy and miserable! LOL

I am going to try not to hit hard today in my lesson and see if that is the problem. Like you said, maybe i am using too much arm.

I tried the 2HB yesterday during my clinic and it was a disaster! Yikes!!!

If it still hurts then I will get through my singles roiund robin on Friday and fun match on Saturday and then take a few days off....:evil:

 

[tfm1973]

smiley - looks like you said you are playing with a prince speedport black - can you tell us what strings and tension?

2 years ago i had to stop playing tennis because my arm and wrist especially were killing me. got to the point i couldn't hold my racquet in my hand anymore.

i was playing with an old head racquet the i.S2 which is extremely light, VERY STIFF and playing with poly strings at 60+ pounds. the combo was not good for my arm and wrist.

i rested for a couple of seasons and i started playing with heavier racquets with LOW stiffness ratings (low 60's) coupled with strings at mid 50's or lower tension. i've felt pretty good ever since. still take my advil when i get home but much much better. i admit i'm still stubborn and play with poly but i love the way it feels and the spin.

i wouldn't buy anymore racquets but you may want to demo some racquets you might normally not have considered. the speedport black is 11 ounces-ish - so you should be able to handle quite a range of racquets. i'd go as heavy as you can swing comfortably, as low stiffness rating as you can deal with without feeling like a piece of rubber, and as low string tension as you can deal with before it gets too trampoliney. cheers and good luck!

 

[Cindysphinx]

Thanks,

Downthe line and Cindy!

I will recheck grip again.

Cindy, I just can't bring myslef to not play! It's like a coffee addiction. If you don't have that one cup to start your day you are grumpy and miserable! LOL

I am going to try not to hit hard today in my lesson and see if that is the problem. Like you said, maybe i am using too much arm.

I tried the 2HB yesterday during my clinic and it was a disaster! Yikes!!!

If it still hurts then I will get through my singles roiund robin on Friday and fun match on Saturday and then take a few days off....:evil:

One more thing. You want to take the Advil *before* you play. Inflammation is the enemy. It causes muscles to shut down, which then gives the joint less support. Anti-inflammatory drugs are most effective at preventing inflammation; it's tougher to calm everything down once it is already happening and you will need a higher/longer dose to get anywhere. That is bad.

As for whether you can stand to rest . . . as TFM was saying, arm/wrist/elbow issues can sideline you for years, not days. I have a player who missed the entire fall season with TE, and she just bowed out of the winter season because it still hurts even though she stopped playing in August. When it hurts badly enough, you'll stop. Everyone does.

With Tennis Elbow, it's rest it now or else.

 

[Topaz]

I think you are stringing too high!

 

[Cindysphinx]

I think you are stringing too high!

Yeah. If too tight means less power and you're still trying to hit hard . . . you're probably not letting your equipment do the work.

 

[Bagumbawalla]

My guess, and this is a very guessy guess (and taking your word for ththat it is your bicep that is hurting)- is that you have timing issues on your forehand side and you may be hitting slightly late with your wrist bent back at impact to compensate for not hitting cleanly through the ball.

Another possibility is you may be trying for too much topspin and are forcing the action with a wristy, whippy action that is slightly off causing you to hit low on the racket strings and jarring those muscles and connective tissue..

 

[smiley74]

smiley - looks like you said you are playing with a prince speedport black - can you tell us what strings and tension?

2 years ago i had to stop playing tennis because my arm and wrist especially were killing me. got to the point i couldn't hold my racquet in my hand anymore.

i was playing with an old head racquet the i.S2 which is extremely light, VERY STIFF and playing with poly strings at 60+ pounds. the combo was not good for my arm and wrist.

i rested for a couple of seasons and i started playing with heavier racquets with LOW stiffness ratings (low 60's) coupled with strings at mid 50's or lower tension. i've felt pretty good ever since. still take my advil when i get home but much much better. i admit i'm still stubborn and play with poly but i love the way it feels and the spin.

i wouldn't buy anymore racquets but you may want to demo some racquets you might normally not have considered. the speedport black is 11 ounces-ish - so you should be able to handle quite a range of racquets. i'd go as heavy as you can swing comfortably, as low stiffness rating as you can deal with without feeling like a piece of rubber, and as low string tension as you can deal with before it gets too trampoliney. cheers and good luck!

Hi! It said 70 stiffness. I'm not sure what the tension is. It came with Prince Black Lighntning string.....hope this helps!

 

[smiley74]

Yeah. If too tight means less power and you're still trying to hit hard . . . you're probably not letting your equipment do the work.

What does stringing to high mean?

 

[smiley74]

My guess, and this is a very guessy guess (and taking your word for ththat it is your bicep that is hurting)- is that you have timing issues on your forehand side and you may be hitting slightly late with your wrist bent back at impact to compensate for not hitting cleanly through the ball.

Another possibility is you may be trying for too much topspin and are forcing the action with a wristy, whippy action that is slightly off causing you to hit low on the racket strings and jarring those muscles and connective tissue..

Thank you. I will ask my pro to look for these specific things in my lesson/clinic tomorrow!

 

[Topaz]

Smiley...I think we all assumed that the 70 you gave us was the tension at which you got your racquet strung. The higher the number, the higher the tension and tighter the strings...better for control. The lower the number, the lower the tension...better for power.

70 as a racquet stiffness is something else entirely.

I would suggest going on the TW site, click racquets, and they have a learning center...you can read up on all these terms there, it helped me immensely.

I string my racquet under 60 pounds...and I think for *most* people, that is a normal range. 70 would, I think in your case, be way too high. However, it sounds as if you may not know what tension your racquet is actually strung at, correct?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Anti-inflammatory options

...Tylenol is for pain. It won't help with inflammation and so is not a good choice. It can also fry your liver.

Advil/Ibuprofen used to be a prescription anti-inflammatory a long time ago. The prescription dose was 4 tablets 3 x a day. When it became over-the-counter, the recommended dose was 1-2 tablets. That lower dose provides pain relief, but it doesn't do much in the way of controlling inflammation. If you take the prescription dose for long enough, you will have swiss cheese where your stomach used to be, so you need to be selective on when you use it. I would not mix tylenol with advil, nor would I start creating new and interesting combinations like advil and aleve.

So. If I'm having a problem (right now, bad shoulder and plantar faschitis), I will take 3-4 Advil at least one hour before a match with a ton of food and water. This gets me through the match and prevents further inflammation. Then I try not to take it again until my next match days later, and if I rest enough I probably won't need it at all. I would never take Advil before bed; tried it once and had more stomach irritation than usual.

Also, before Advil people used ice. Get a couple of large gel packs and keep them in the freezer. Ice everything that hurts within one hour of playing, 10-20 minutes max. This will help you keep the Advil to a minimum...

Make sure that you are really dealing with an inflammatory condition before consuming high doses of NSAIDs such as ibuprofen (advil), naproxen (aleve) or aspirin. These NSAIDs are all inhibitors of both COX-1 and COX-2. COX-1 has a very beneficial effect on protecting the stomach lining. By inhibiting COX-1 with large doses of NSAIDs for extended periods of time, your stomach lining can be seriously compromised.

Often, chronic (non-acute) conditions will cause pain w/o any inflammation present. Check with a physician or other expert, if you are not sure about the presence of inflammation.

Yes, is is true that you need a dose-&-a-half to a double dose of NSAIDs to achieve an anti-inflammatory response. For ibuprofen this means 600 to 800 mg doses taken several times a day. These kind of dosages should not used on an ongoing basis for more than 10-14 days -- not good for the stomach.

Ice or ice massage is probably the best anti-inflammatory treatment (no negative side effects). Ice is also recommended for chronic conditions (where no inflammation exists). For best results, ice (or ice massage) several times a day (for 20 mins or so). Do not ice right before exercise -- you need your muscles & joints to be warm for exercise, not cold. But do ice as soon as possible after exercise.

There are a number of foods, herbs & spices that are natural COX-2 inhibitors. I don't believe that they inhibit COX-1 or have the nasty side effects of prescription COX-2 inhibiting drugs. These include cherry juice, green tea and sources of omega-3 fatty acids. Good sources of omega 3-s are: salmon, sardines and, to a lesser extent, ground flax seeds.

More info on ice massage & herbal options:

badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=707662
badmintoncentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=536978&postcount=32

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

...

I do play often and hit hard with a lot of pace...

Do you hit a lot of shots outside the sweet spot? If you are hitting hard, but off-center, your arm could experience quite a bit of torque which could account for your arm condition.

I believe that your frame is somewhat firm but not really super-stiff. The power rating for your racket is only 975 and is supposed to be a control racket -- intended for long, full swings. You could reduce the string tension on this racket to give you more innate (string) power with a larger sweet spot. This would allow you to slow down your swing a bit and let the racket strings provide more of the power generation. This might be the ticket to reducing you arm stresses.

You did not indicate if your grip was relaxed most of the time or not. If you are squeezing too much, this could easily explain the tension and overuse of the forearm and elbow.

The bicep pain still baffles me. Does your arm go to full, yet relaxed, extension on the serve?

I'll talk more about supination in the next post.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Make sure that you are really dealing with an inflammatory condition before consuming high doses of NSAIDs such as ibuprofen (advil), naproxen (aleve) or aspirin. These NSAIDs are all inhibitors of both COX-1 and COX-2. COX-1 has a very beneficial effect on protecting the stomach lining. By inhibiting COX-1 with large doses of NSAIDs for extended periods of time, your stomach lining can be seriously compromised.

Often, chronic (non-acute) conditions will cause pain w/o any inflammation present. Check with a physician or other expert, if you are not sure about the presence of inflammation.

Yes, is is true that you need a dose-&-a-half to a double dose of NSAIDs to achieve an anti-inflammatory response. For ibuprofen this means 600 to 800 mg doses taken several times a day. These kind of dosages should not used on an ongoing basis for more than 10-14 days -- not good for the stomach.

Ice or ice massage is probably the best anti-inflammatory treatment (no negative side effects). Ice is also recommended for chronic conditions (where no inflammation exists). For best results, ice (or ice massage) several times a day (for 20 mins or so). Do not ice right before exercise -- you need your muscles & joints to be warm for exercise, not cold. But do ice as soon as possible after exercise.

There are a number of foods, herbs & spices that are natural COX-2 inhibitors. I don't believe that they inhibit COX-1 or have the nasty side effects of prescription COX-2 inhibiting drugs. These include cherry juice, green tea and sources of omega-3 fatty acids. Good sources of omega 3-s are: salmon, sardines and, to a lesser extent, ground flax seeds.

More info on ice massage & herbal options:

badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=707662
badmintoncentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=536978&postcount=32

What he said. Especially about the icing. Icing is *way* underrated. It really works.

My feeling on the bicep pain is that it is a red herring, mostly. If you are new to a sport, do a ton of it, and don't yet have the physical conditioning and upper body strength required, many muscles will feel it. The bicep is no exception.

Cindy -- practicing medicine without a license again

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Smiley74, any further feedback from your pro or recent developments with your arm issues?

What does stringing too high mean?

It is possible that frame is a bit too stiff for your physique. Stiff frames tend to deliver more shock/vibration to your arm. Does the Black Speedport racket incorporate some sort of shock & vibration dampening system in the handle? I'm not talking about string vibration dampening -- string vibration wouldn't really bother your arm, but frame vibration does.

If this is the case, there are a couple of things that you can do to counteract this. Since your racket came to you strung & you did not specify the racket tension that you wanted, my guess is that it was strung close to the middle of its recommended range: 58-60 lbs (or even higher).

If you have more than one of these rackets, try having one of them restrung at 53 lbs (or no higher than 55 lbs). This should give you a larger sweetspot and will also give your more power with a slower swing (you could easily be swinging too hard with a tighter stringbed).

Another consideration might be the type of string (but not quite as important as the string tension, IMO). Consider a string that is more elastic and thinner (17 gauge instead of 16 gauge). Thinner strings tend to yield more power and more spin.

According to the US Racket Stringer's Association (USRSA), "More elastic strings generate more power. (Generally, what will produce more power will also absorb more shock load at impact.)".

More info: Basic Facts About Frames & Strings

Another countermeasure: Try adding about 15 grams (0.5 oz) of lead tape to your frame. If you don't want to alter that balance of your frame, then place the tape near the top of the throat (close to the racket head). According to the guide above, a heavier frame generates more power, has a larger sweetspot, and, most important, vibrates less.

Less frame vibration = less stresses to your arm.

(Let me know if you want to know more about supination & the involvement of the bicep muscle)
.

 

[Zachol82]

Hmm, what kind of pain do you have? Like is it sore? Does it ache? Or a different kind of pain?