Okay - let's come up with the terms of Greatness evaluation

To determine the GOAT, one has to be head and shoulders above the rest. For instance:

Most slams
Career slam
Perhaps even a Grand Slam
Most year ending number 1s
Most weeks at number 1
WTFs, though not necessarily the most, but you must have some to your name
Davis Cup wins for your country
Olympic Singles gold is a bonus, but not a necessity (it only comes around 4 years and it was not always played).

As for head to head, it depends, you can trail the H2H count against your biggest rival but win most of the slam matches, ala Edberg with Becker. Then you could make an exception for a losing H2H, yea sure your opponent won more but you won the ones that counted. If however you are losing overall and in slam matches, across several slams, then it has to count.

And this is why we can never havee a clear cut GOAT. Because greats across different eras will never meet, it all comes down to perception. Unless one player has all of the above covered, there will always be different perceptions about who is GOAT. I don't think you can place a measuring points system to measure greatness. You pretty much need to have all the above ticked off to be considered undisputed GOAT, otherwise it's open to debate.

Blocker, I would add the following criteria:

Majors won in a row
major finals and SFs
span of majors won
tournaments won
tournaments finals and SFs
years in top 10
top event of the year won (Wimbledon, before open era mostly Wembley)
Channel Slam (Borg and Rosewall did it)

Adding these parameters to your's (maybe we have forgotten a few more) I think it's reasonable to call Laver, Rosewall, Gonzalez and Tilden the four true GOAT contenders.

BUT: This is only regarding record and success, not regarding playing strength! For instance Lew Hoad is still ranked No.1 at top playing level by many experts.
 
Just relax okay? As you saw from my opening thread done 1.5 years ago....my list was just to start the ball rolling. Even I have changed my opinion since then (I'd move up the WTF to second position).

If you just base rankings on GS titles - how does Pancho Gonzales rate? 2 Slams? Why is it that he is universally regarded as the best player of the 1950's and one of the greatest of all time?

I think if you asked Nadal I would think that he would regarded his record 26 Masters 1000's as a very significant achievement. I think Federer would regard his record 6 WTF's also as a very significant achievement. Players throughout history (since 1970) have regarded the WTF very highly indeed.

Also if only slams count....why bother playing other tournaments? Why not just play 4 tournaments a year? And if Slams are so very important, what is the place of making slam finals? Should they all be completely ignored?

We all agree that Slam wins should be given the most weight. But slams aren't the only game in town.

timnz, You are totally right.

I only contradict insofar as the Grand Slam is still the greatest feat (I'm sure you agree).
 
The three consecutive pre-homogenzied channel slams of Bjorn Borg is the greatest feat…. probably in tennis history (even more so than Laver's slam, or Gonzales' 8 consecutive YE#1s).

This probably puts him at #1, at least for the open era.

MonkeyBoy, it's not the greatest feat. "Only" a very great feat. At least making the Grand Slam is more important.

Borg is arguable the greatest of open era, but all-time only No.5 to No.7.
 
The scenario you described about having to defend points as opposed to gaining points if you didn't play the event last year applies to the rolling number 1 system, ie the number 1 for the past 52 weeks irrespective of the timeof the year.

Year end number 1 will always be more prestigious than being number 1 in March or June or any other time because the year end is the only time when the year end number 1 and the rolling number 1 are in equilibrium.

The don't hand out drivers championships to F1 drivers who mid season have the most points for the equivalent of the past 12 months, they hand it out to the winner at the end of that particular calendar season.

Also, a CYGS will also be seen as a greater achievement than a player who wins W 14, USO 14, AO 15 and FO 15. Why should the number 1 rabking system be any different.

Blocker, The Grand Slam, while being the greatest achievement, will OF COURSE NOT be seen as a greater achievement than winning 58 (or even "only" 20) GS tournaments! Otherwise Rod Laver must be called from this second onward the undisputed GOAT or even the GOD-GOAT....
 
Moderators, observe:

Please give us mindless and incessant theorists a subsection.

Yes...please create a separate space for "GOAT wars". This topic makes the GPPD section feel like you're walking through a cow pasture after feeding time. Watch your step!
 
The scenario you described about having to defend points as opposed to gaining points if you didn't play the event last year applies to the rolling number 1 system, ie the number 1 for the past 52 weeks irrespective of the timeof the year.
I'm aware of this. Your point?

Year end number 1 will always be more prestigious than being number 1 in March or June or any other time because the year end is the only time when the year end number 1 and the rolling number 1 are in equilibrium.
Again, your point? :confused:

Also, a CYGS will also be seen as a greater achievement than a player who wins W 14, USO 14, AO 15 and FO 15. Why should the number 1 rabking system be any different.
I'm still not following you. I don't see how this is a proper analogy. I think they should do away with the 52 week rolling system entirely. I think the world #1 should only take into consideration the CURRENT calendar year (e.g., the champions race). The problem is, it doesn't!
 
Why? How do you mean? :confused:

Let's look at the prerequisites in recent times. To end the year as world #1 you need at the very least to win 2 Slams and go deep in the other 2 (or at least in 1 of the 2 remaining). How many people win 2 in a year? You have to go deep in most Masters tournaments and win a few. Go deep in the WTF or win it; grab a 500 or 2, just to have a chance of ending the year as world #1. This is a tall order, no wonder only very few have managed to string a streak of years ended as world #1.

Apparently you are not impressed, but to me it seems like one of the greatest achievements. A calendar year of domination over every other entrant in the ATP circuit.
 
There are many many arguments about H2H vs achievement on these boards.

But in order of weigh and priority what should be the evaluating criteria for the Greatness of a player. Can I suggest the following (and I am sure people will debate this).

This is in order of weight and priority (the smaller numbers having greater weight than the bigger numbers):

1/ Number of majors won
2/ Number of major finals reached
3/ Number of WTF's won
4/ Number of year end number 1 rankings
5/ Number of weeks at number 1 ranking
6/ Number equivalent Masters 1000's won
7/ Number of titles won overall
8/ Diversity of titles won (by surface and conditions)
......
way down
19/ Olympic wins
20/ Head to head against major rivals

The term is Nadal. :-)
 
Blocker, I would add the following criteria:

Majors won in a row
major finals and SFs
span of majors won
tournaments won
tournaments finals and SFs
years in top 10
top event of the year won (Wimbledon, before open era mostly Wembley)
Channel Slam (Borg and Rosewall did it)

Adding these parameters to your's (maybe we have forgotten a few more) I think it's reasonable to call Laver, Rosewall, Gonzalez and Tilden the four true GOAT contenders.

BUT: This is only regarding record and success, not regarding playing strength! For instance Lew Hoad is still ranked No.1 at top playing level by many experts.

When did Rosewall win the Channel Slam? By the way, both Nadal (2008 and 2010) and Federer (2009) have achieved this feat.
 
To determine the GOAT, one has to be head and shoulders above the rest. For instance:

Most slams
Career slam
Perhaps even a Grand Slam
Most year ending number 1s
Most weeks at number 1
WTFs, though not necessarily the most, but you must have some to your name
Davis Cup wins for your country
Olympic Singles gold is a bonus, but not a necessity (it only comes around 4 years and it was not always played).

As for head to head, it depends, you can trail the H2H count against your biggest rival but win most of the slam matches, ala Edberg with Becker. Then you could make an exception for a losing H2H, yea sure your opponent won more but you won the ones that counted. If however you are losing overall and in slam matches, across several slams, then it has to count.

And this is why we can never havee a clear cut GOAT. Because greats across different eras will never meet, it all comes down to perception. Unless one player has all of the above covered, there will always be different perceptions about who is GOAT. I don't think you can place a measuring points system to measure greatness. You pretty much need to have all the above ticked off to be considered undisputed GOAT, otherwise it's open to debate.

I disagree with Davis Cup title since it required team effort, not individual. Plus, a player doesn't have to play all 4 groups(nations), but just show up in the final. He totally has to depend on his teammates to win Davis Cup. Olympics wasn't available and/or wasn't important before before this era, so you can't use this achievement to hold against Borg, JMac, Lendl, etc...

There's no undisputed goat in any sport. However goat doesn't mean you have to own every single stats in the book. Michael Jordan isn't perfect player, but he's widely considered goat because he dominate and owns most of the records. The same can be said for Federer.


2003 Wimbledon — 2009 French Open Career Grand Slam
Rod Laver, Andre Agassi, Rafael Nadal

2003 Wimbledon — 2012 Wimbledon 17 titles Stands alone

2003 Wimbledon — 2012 Wimbledon 24 finals Stands alone

2005 Wimbledon — 2007 US Open 10 consecutive finals Stands alone

2003 Wimbledon — 2013 Australian Open 33 semifinals Stands alone

2004 Wimbledon — 2010 Australian Open 23 consecutive semifinals Stands alone
2004 Wimbledon — 2013 French Open 36 consecutive quarterfinals Stands alone
2000 Australian Open — 2013 US Open 56 consecutive appearances Wayne Ferreira

2004 & 2006–2007 3 years winning 3+ titles Stands alone
2004–2007 & 2009 5 years winning 2+ titles Stands alone
2006–2007 2 consecutive years winning 3+ titles Stands alone
2004–2007 4 consecutive years winning 2+ titles Stands alone
2004–2011 8 consecutive years winning 20+ matches Stands alone

2003 Wimbledon —2012 Wimbledon 5+ titles at 2 different Majors Björn Borg, Pete Sampras
2003 Wimbledon — 2012 Wimbledon 4+ titles at 3 different Majors Stands alone
2003 Wimbledon — 2012 Wimbledon 5+ finals at all 4 Majors Stands alone
2003 Wimbledon — 2013 Australian Open 7+ semifinals at all 4 Majors Stands alone
2001 French Open — 2013 French Open 9+ quarterfinals at all 4 Majors Stands alone
2003 Wimbledon — 2008 US Open 5 consecutive titles at 2 different Majors Stands alone
2004 Wimbledon — 2007 US Open 4 consecutive years of winning the two same Majors Stands alone
2003 Wimbledon — 2007 French Open 2+ consecutive finals at all 4 Majors Ivan Lendl
2003 Wimbledon — 2009 French Open 5+ consecutive semifinals at all 4 Majors Stands alone
2003 Wimbledon — 2013 French Open 9+ consecutive quarterfinals at all 4 Majors Stands alone
2003 Wimbledon — 2006 Australian Open First 7 finals won Stands alone
2004 Australian Open — 2010 Australian Open 9 hard court titles Stands alone
2008 US Open — 2009 Wimbledon Simultaneous holder of Majors on clay, grass and hard court Rafael Nadal
2006–2007 & 2009 All 4 Major finals in 1 season Rod Laver
2006 French Open — 2009 US Open Runner-up finishes at all 4 Majors Ivan Lendl
2000 Australian Open — 2013 US Open 260 match wins Stands alone
2000 Australian Open — 2013 US Open 50+ match wins at all 4 Majors Stands alone
2000 Australian Open — 2013 US Open 60+ match wins at 3 different Majors Stands alone
2000 Australian Open — 2013 US Open 135 hard court match wins Stands alone
2006 27 match wins in 1 season Stands alone
2004–2007 & 2009 5 years with match winning percentage of 90%+ Björn Borg
2004 French Open — 2012 US Open 23 No. 1 seeds Stands alone
2004 French Open — 2008 Wimbledon 18 consecutive No. 1 seeds Stands alone
2006 US Open — 2007 French Open 36 consecutive sets won Stands alone
2007 US Open 35 consecutive service points won Stands alone
2009 Wimbledon 50 aces in a final Stands alone
1999 French Open — 2012 US Open 5618 games won Stands alone
2005 Wimbledon — 2007 French Open 2 winning streaks of 25+ matches Stands alone
2005 Wimbledon — 2009 US Open 3 winning streaks of 20+ matches Stands alone
2004 Wimbledon — 2009 US Open 5 winning streaks of 15+ matches Stands alone

Grand Slam tournaments

Australian Open 2004–2010 4 titles overall Andre Agassi
Novak Djokovic
Australian Open 2004–2010 5 finals overall Stefan Edberg
Australian Open 2004–2013 10 semifinals overall Stands alone
Australian Open 2004–2013 10 consecutive semifinals Stands alone
Australian Open 2007 Won title without losing a set Ken Rosewall
Australian Open 2000–2013 68 match wins overall Stands alone
Australian Open 2006–2008 30 consecutive sets won Stands alone
French Open 2006–2009 4 consecutive finals Björn Borg, Ivan Lendl, Rafael Nadal
French Open 2006–2011 4 runner-up finishes overall Stands alone
French Open 2006–2008 3 consecutive runner-up finishes Stands alone
French Open 2005–2009 5 consecutive semifinals Stands alone
French Open—Wimbledon 2009 Accomplished a "Channel Slam": Winning both tournaments in the same year Rod Laver, Björn Borg, Rafael Nadal
Wimbledon 2003–2012 7 titles overall Pete Sampras
Wimbledon 2003–2007 5 consecutive titles Björn Borg
Wimbledon 2003–2012 8 finals overall Stands alone
Wimbledon 2003–2009 7 consecutive finals Stands alone
Wimbledon 2003–2009 7 consecutive semifinals Stands alone
Wimbledon 2005–2006 34 consecutive sets won Stands alone
US Open 2004–2008 5 titles overall Jimmy Connors
Pete Sampras
US Open 2004–2008 5 consecutive titles Stands alone
US Open 2004–2009 40 consecutive match wins Stands alone


Year-End Championship

2003–2011 6 titles overall Stands alone
2002–2012 42 match wins overall Stands alone
2003–2005 14 consecutive match wins Ivan Lendl

ATP Masters 1000 records
2000–2013 280 match wins overall Stands alone
2004–2012 15 hard court titles Stands alone
2005–2006 2 consecutive years winning 4+ titles Stands alone
2002–2011 9 different finals Novak Djokovic
Rafael Nadal
2006 6 finals in 1 season Novak Djokovic
Rafael Nadal
2004–2012 4 Indian Wells Masters titles Stands alone
2002–2007 4 Hamburg Masters titles Stands alone
2005–2012 5 Cincinnati Masters titles Stands alone
2012 Won title without having serve broken or losing a set
(Cincinnati Masters) Stands alone

Other records
2004–2012 302 total weeks at No. 1 Stands alone
2 February 2004 — 17 August 2008 237 consecutive weeks at No. 1 Stands alone
2003–2005 26 consecutive match victories vs. top 10 opponents Stands alone
2005–2006 56 consecutive hard court match victories Stands alone
2003–2008 65 consecutive grass court match victories Stands alone
2003–2005 24 consecutive tournament finals won Stands alone
2001–2013 10+ titles on grass, clay and hard courts Stands alone
2003–2013 13 grass court titles Stands alone
2002–2012 52 hard court titles Stands alone
2006 9 hard court titles in 1 season Jimmy Connors
1998–2013 339 tiebreaks won Stands alone
1999–2013 87.14% (122 - 18 ) grass court match winning percentage Stands alone
1998–2013 82.63% (552–116) hard court match winning percentage Stands alone
2006 94.12% of tournament finals reached in 1 season Stands alone
2004–2008 2 consecutive Olympic games as wire-to-wire No. 1 Stands alone
2004–2012 3 consecutive Olympic games as No. 1 Stands alone
2005–2007 3 consecutive calendar years as wire-to-wire No. 1 Stands alone
2005–2007 3 calendar years as wire-to-wire No. 1 Jimmy Connors
2003–2012 Ended 9 years ranked inside the top 2 Stands alone
2007 $10 million prize money earned in a season Rafael Nadal
Novak Djokovic
2005–2007 2 winning streaks of 35+ matches Björn Borg
2004–2012 7 winning streaks of 20+ matches Stands alone
 
There are many many arguments about H2H vs achievement on these boards.

But in order of weigh and priority what should be the evaluating criteria for the Greatness of a player. Can I suggest the following (and I am sure people will debate this).

This is in order of weight and priority (the smaller numbers having greater weight than the bigger numbers):

1/ Number of majors won
2/ Number of major finals reached
3/ Number of WTF's won
4/ Number of year end number 1 rankings
5/ Number of weeks at number 1 ranking
6/ Number equivalent Masters 1000's won
7/ Number of titles won overall
8/ Diversity of titles won (by surface and conditions)
......
way down
19/ Olympic wins
20/ Head to head against major rivals

how about having this one super-overriding factor: Born in Switzerland and father of twins.

I think that seems to be all you care about.
 
^
Rosewall never won a Channel Slam. Even if he did, the Channel Slam only exist in the open era, not during the split fields.
 
how about have one super-overriding factor: Born in Switzerland and father of twins.

I think that seems to be all you care about.

How about you adding something meaningful to the discussion instead of being smartass?

timnz is a very fair/objective poster. He doesn't take any side and believe Laver is one of the goat, in case you didn't know.
 
How about you adding something meaningful to the discussion instead of being smartass?

timnz is a very fair/objective poster. He doesn't take any side and believe Laver is one of the goat, in case you didn't know.

what has that got to do with his list and weights which are obviously tailored to favoring a certain player of his? he does not provide any justification at all. so why bother?
 
what has that got to do with his list and weights which are obviously tailored to favoring a certain player of his? he does not provide any justification at all. so why bother?

How are they 'obviously tailored to favour a certain player'? It's his opinion. Not surprising as that is what the whole thread is about, looking for people's opinions. You don't have an opinion but you are ready to debase the discussion.
 
what has that got to do with his list and weights which are obviously tailored to favoring a certain player of his? he does not provide any justification at all. so why bother?

What criteria should be use in evaluating goat?

If you think timnz's list is biased, ok, let's remove all of his top 8 and you come up with your top 8 most important criteria. Enlighten us with your most objective list that doesn't include slams and ranking.

1/ Number of majors won
2/ Number of major finals reached
3/ Number of WTF's won
4/ Number of year end number 1 rankings
5/ Number of weeks at number 1 ranking
6/ Number equivalent Masters 1000's won
7/ Number of titles won overall
8/ Diversity of titles won (by surface and conditions)
 
what has that got to do with his list and weights which are obviously tailored to favoring a certain player of his? he does not provide any justification at all. so why bother?

Actually, that's a pretty fair list of achievements, although I don't necessarily agree with some of them. What would you suggest?
- Number of titles won on clay (red only)
- Consecutive wins on clay (red only)
- Number of Monte Carlo titles since it's been non-mandatory
- H2H vs cherry-picked players
- Number of clips with Shakira
- Number of MTO's before your opponent's serve
- Number of time-violation and coaching warnings

Would that seem more "objective" to you? As in, more representative of what should be taken into account to try and compare the greatness of players through the ages? :roll:
 
What criteria should be use in evaluating goat?

If you think timnz's list is biased, ok, let's remove all of his top 8 and you come up with your top 8 most important criteria. Enlighten us with your most objective list that doesn't include slams and ranking.


i did not at all suggest removing his list. I am calling into question why his criteria are selected and weighted as such. For example, what is the justification for "diversity of surfaces" as number eight, but head to head record is no. 20? why?

I have consistently suggested another criteria as probably the most important one: match winning percentage with a minimum (say 500) number of matches played at highest professional level i.e. ATP Tour level. This one criteria takes into account longevity, dominance and all-roundedness. Its sorta like the PER of tennis.
 
Yes...please create a separate space for "GOAT wars". This topic makes the GPPD section feel like you're walking through a cow pasture after feeding time. Watch your step!

BHud, Don't cry little baby. When growing older you will understand more about tennis history...
 
When did Rosewall win the Channel Slam? By the way, both Nadal (2008 and 2010) and Federer (2009) have achieved this feat.

Steve132, I'm sorry that I did not mention Nadal's and Federer's feats.

Rosewall and Borg won the Channel Slam three times.

Muscles won the Channel Slam 1960, 1961, and 1962.
 
^
Rosewall never won a Channel Slam. Even if he did, the Channel Slam only exist in the open era, not during the split fields.

TMF, Oh, that's new for me! Thanks for enlighten me.

I did not know that "Channel Slam" is an official term since 1968.

To be serious: As far as I know that term did not exist at all in Borg's time, but posters always use it now for Borg.

In contrast to you (and a few others) I believe pro majors (and even amateur majors) can yet be regarded as true majors (albeit with a lower weight). Thus I dare to say: Rosewall has achieved 3 Channel Slams.
 
how about having this one super-overriding factor: Born in Switzerland and father of twins.

I think that seems to be all you care about.

Sigh, stop trying to guess my motives and come up with a list yourself. (Unless you already have further down and I haven't got to it yet....)
 
Blocker, The Grand Slam, while being the greatest achievement, will OF COURSE NOT be seen as a greater achievement than winning 58 (or even "only" 20) GS tournaments! Otherwise Rod Laver must be called from this second onward the undisputed GOAT or even the GOD-GOAT....

My apologies, I didn't explain it properly, probably because I was in a rush. What I meant to say is, it is a bigger achievement, or it is perceived as a being a bigger achievement, if a player wins the CYGS is 2014 as opposed to winning W in 2014, the USO in 2014, the AO in 2015 and the FO in 2015. Winning W 14, USO 14, AO 15 and the FO 15 means you hold all 4 slams, you've won the past 4 slams, but the magic words in tennis are "Grand Slam", winning all 4 in the 1 year. Always has been, always will be.

So applying that to the number 1 ranking, a rolling number 1 is great, but finishing the year number is greater, or perceived to be greater. Just like you can hold all 4 slams at the one time, by winning the last 2 of one year and the first of the following year, you can be the rolling number 1 at any time of the year, but finishing the year number 1, just like finishing the year holding all 4 slams, is seen as the bigger achievement.
 
I'm aware of this. Your point?

Again, your point? :confused:

I'm still not following you. I don't see how this is a proper analogy. I think they should do away with the 52 week rolling system entirely. I think the world #1 should only take into consideration the CURRENT calendar year (e.g., the champions race). The problem is, it doesn't!

My point? My point is, you used the example of a player getting points or losing points depending on how he went in that even last year, and in so doing, downplayed the year end number 1 ranking. I said that the same also applies to the rolling number 1.

I am happy with the system as we know it today. You have the race to number 1, and a rolling number 1. If the ATP only showed the race ranking, Wawrinka would be number1, by virtue of his AO win. That may or may not be fair enough, he's won the only slam in the year to date so he should be number 1. But it can also be misleading, a player can win the Auckland event and be number 1. IMO it's too early to start showing the race leader board, start showing the ranking race after the FO, when alot more tournaments have been played.
 
merlinpinpin, Are you McEnroe to call out that way? If you are, you are still lower than Borg...

Please explain us why Borg cannot arguably be the greatest of open era.

Because he has too many holes in his resume, quite simply. Borg was a great player, and definitely tier 2 all-time (you may even consider him as part of the upper echelon of tier 2, depending on how you rank them), but the lack of the US Open title hurts him a lot, especially considering the fact that, due to his early retirement, his overall "figures" are not that high (notice I'm not saying anything about his not winning the AO, as it wasn't worth much in his day and age).

Although spectacular, Borg's accomplishments clearly put him behind Federer (and Laver, of course, should you consider him part of the Open Era, which I wouldn't personally do), so he can't, by definition, be arguably the best player of the Open Era. Note that this doesn't prevent him from being the best player of the '70's and one of the greatest ever, though. :)
 
Because he has too many holes in his resume, quite simply. Borg was a great player, and definitely tier 2 all-time (you may even consider him as part of the upper echelon of tier 2, depending on how you rank them), but the lack of the US Open title hurts him a lot, especially considering the fact that, due to his early retirement, his overall "figures" are not that high (notice I'm not saying anything about his not winning the AO, as it wasn't worth much in his day and age).

Although spectacular, Borg's accomplishments clearly put him behind Federer (and Laver, of course, should you consider him part of the Open Era, which I wouldn't personally do), so he can't, by definition, be arguably the best player of the Open Era. Note that this doesn't prevent him from being the best player of the '70's and one of the greatest ever, though. :)

how in the world can you consider his overall "figures" as "not that high"? he currently holds the second highest ever matching winning % with a minimum of 500 wins. he is the only player to be ranked in the top 3 for both clay and grass in terms of match winning %. how is this "not that high"? there simply has not been a better player than Bjorn ever, in terms of all rounded ability. his ability to dominate both indoors and outdoors, both fast and slow courts, is arguably greater than Federer even.
 
how in the world can you consider his overall "figures" as "not that high"? he currently holds the second highest ever matching winning % with a minimum of 500 wins. he is the only player to be ranked in the top 3 for both clay and grass in terms of match winning %. how is this "not that high"? there simply has not been a better player than Bjorn ever, in terms of all rounded ability. his ability to dominate both indoors and outdoors, both fast and slow courts, is arguably greater than Federer even.

No. Just no. Percentages don't mean much in the end, it's accomplishments that count. Borg's win % was very high because he quit in his prime. Had he played longer, he would have won more, but inevitably, his winning % would have gone down. But quitting early doesn't give any bonus or free pass, you have to earn everything you get.

So yes, Borg was extremely good on clay and grass (which is an incredible feat, considering how they played differently in his time). Carpet, too. And I agree he was no slouch on HC. But, however you try to spin it, he never won the US Open. His four finals gave him many chances, but he wasn't able to take advantage.

I agree with you that he was a top player and that he *could* arguably have become the best player in the Open Era had he posted better numbers, but as things stand, I'm afraid this boat sailed some time ago for him.
 
Fed won the FO.....but come on . Fluke!

Nadal has won on every surface twice and we all know if he was healthy he would have won every slam at least twice .
 
Last edited:
My apologies, I didn't explain it properly, probably because I was in a rush. What I meant to say is, it is a bigger achievement, or it is perceived as a being a bigger achievement, if a player wins the CYGS is 2014 as opposed to winning W in 2014, the USO in 2014, the AO in 2015 and the FO in 2015. Winning W 14, USO 14, AO 15 and the FO 15 means you hold all 4 slams, you've won the past 4 slams, but the magic words in tennis are "Grand Slam", winning all 4 in the 1 year. Always has been, always will be.

So applying that to the number 1 ranking, a rolling number 1 is great, but finishing the year number is greater, or perceived to be greater. Just like you can hold all 4 slams at the one time, by winning the last 2 of one year and the first of the following year, you can be the rolling number 1 at any time of the year, but finishing the year number 1, just like finishing the year holding all 4 slams, is seen as the bigger achievement.

Blocker, Thanks for explaing the matter. I totally agree.

It was rather my fault to misunderstand you! Maybe I read it wrongly because I use to write "2014" rather than "14" for example.

By the way, I also write "hth" instead of "h2h" because I dislike these modern abbreviations (I concede I sometimes write "bh" when very tired as I actually am since several days) and "Americanisms"...
 
The burden of proof is on you, do explain why he is. lol

Russeljones, Even when you are laughing that much: Others including you have the burden of proof that Nadal or Federer or Sampras or Connors is ARGUABLY the greatest of open era.

I did not read all of your posts in the past, but have you already proved that your favoured player arguably is the open era GOAT?

Borg has dominated in his peak years' period as no other player since 1968 has done. Maybe Federer has but Roger did not have such tough competition as Borg had 1977 to 1980.
 
Because he has too many holes in his resume, quite simply. Borg was a great player, and definitely tier 2 all-time (you may even consider him as part of the upper echelon of tier 2, depending on how you rank them), but the lack of the US Open title hurts him a lot, especially considering the fact that, due to his early retirement, his overall "figures" are not that high (notice I'm not saying anything about his not winning the AO, as it wasn't worth much in his day and age).

Although spectacular, Borg's accomplishments clearly put him behind Federer (and Laver, of course, should you consider him part of the Open Era, which I wouldn't personally do), so he can't, by definition, be arguably the best player of the Open Era. Note that this doesn't prevent him from being the best player of the '70's and one of the greatest ever, though. :)

merlinpinpin, Borg's percentage figures are most probably the all-time best and would be probably still very high if Björn had added some years (I don't consider his comeback career).
 
merlinpinpin, Borg's percentage figures are most probably the all-time best and would be probably still very high if Björn had added some years (I don't consider his comeback career).

I agree with you, but in the end, "probably" doesn't quite cut it. That would be like saying:

Without Nadal, Federer would probably have won 5 consecutive FO's and would be considered one of the greatest claycourters ever.

Or, had he faced some half-decent competition, Sampras would never have passed the 10-gs mark.

Facts are, Nadal was there and he beat Federer in all these FO finals. And Sampras took advantage of his poor to non-existent competition to win 14 slams.

Likewise, Borg's achievements must be counted by what he *actually achieved*, not what he *could have achieved* had he played longer.
 
Steve132, I'm sorry that I did not mention Nadal's and Federer's feats.

Rosewall and Borg won the Channel Slam three times.

Muscles won the Channel Slam 1960, 1961, and 1962.

Unless they come up with the term Channel Pro-Slam, otherwise Rosewall never won the Channel Slam.

The Channel Slam is a unique achievement that's include two grand slam events play on clay and grass.
 
No. Just no. Percentages don't mean much in the end, it's accomplishments that count. Borg's win % was very high because he quit in his prime. Had he played longer, he would have won more, but inevitably, his winning % would have gone down. But quitting early doesn't give any bonus or free pass, you have to earn everything you get.

So yes, Borg was extremely good on clay and grass (which is an incredible feat, considering how they played differently in his time). Carpet, too. And I agree he was no slouch on HC. But, however you try to spin it, he never won the US Open. His four finals gave him many chances, but he wasn't able to take advantage.

I agree with you that he was a top player and that he *could* arguably have become the best player in the Open Era had he posted better numbers, but as things stand, I'm afraid this boat sailed some time ago for him.

the interesting thing is, by your reasoning, then if federer had NOT won FO 2009, he would have no claim to be tier one, no? he had so many chances at the final but never won the FO... come on.
 
TMF, Oh, that's new for me! Thanks for enlighten me.

I did not know that "Channel Slam" is an official term since 1968.

To be serious: As far as I know that term did not exist at all in Borg's time, but posters always use it now for Borg.

In contrast to you (and a few others) I believe pro majors (and even amateur majors) can yet be regarded as true majors (albeit with a lower weight). Thus I dare to say: Rosewall has achieved 3 Channel Slams.

"Channel slam"(hence the word slam) has nothing to do with pro majors.


And pro majors are not equivalent to the 4 open era slam. One poster made a good point...

modern slam(100%) = pro major(70%) + amateur slam(30%).
 
the interesting thing is, by your reasoning, then if federer had NOT won FO 2009, he would have no claim to be tier one, no? he had so many chances at the final but never won the FO... come on.

You're doing it again--building 'what if' scenarios. But who cares? He *did* win FO 2009, so this is a moot point.
 
Career winning percentage is a limited metric for evaluating players, because it tends to favor those - like Borg - who had relatively short careers. Borg quit the game just after he had been dethroned by McEnroe as world No. 1. Had he remained his career winning percentage would inevitably have declined, as it does for every older player. You can't have it both ways - giving Borg credit for what he "might have done" if he had remained in the game while at the same time touting his actual career winning percentage over an abbreviated career as evidence of his unique greatness.

For players with long careers the overall winning percentage is indicative but not definitive of greatness. Chris Evert is an acknowledged all time great who, among other achievements, has the highest winning percentage in the Open era. Despite this, the majority of tennis analysts would rank both Martina Navratilova and Steffi Graf higher, and some are also beginning to place Serena Williams ahead of her. The key issue is that players are judged primarily on the basis of titles won and high rankings attained. A high winning percentage indicates consistency, but it is valued primarily in terms of how this translates into these other accomplishments. Evert was no slouch in these matters, as 156 titles and 18 majors attest, but there are non-trivial reasons why most analysts would rank one or two Open era women players even higher.

Winning percentage over a player's peak years is a better criterion, since it indicates dominance. I'm not sure that Borg has much of an advantage over Federer here, however, since Federer's won-lost records for 2004 through 2006 were 74-6, 81-4 and 92-5 respectively. If you look at other indicators of dominance the case for Federer is even stronger. Between 2004 and 2007 he won 11 of the 16 majors played and the WTF three times. Of the twenty most important tournaments played over the period Federer won 14, was a finalist in three and a semi-finalist in two others. No other player, male or female, Open or amateur eras, has won 11 majors over 4 years. Federer also reached the finals of ten straight majors (and, eventually, 18 of 19 straight), was a semi-finalist in 23 straight and held the No. 1 ranking for a record consecutive 237 weeks. Peak Borg (1978-1980) was certainly dominant, but not to anything like this extent.

So we are left with claims that Federer's French Open win was a fluke (although he reached the finals on four other occasions) or that he faced "weak competition," which is always the last refuge of fans whose favorites' statistics do not stand up to comparison. I would take this last argument seriously if its advocates were to provide a set of testable criteria for evaluating competition across generations, but they never do so. What's left of their argument is pure assertion, which does not work very well.
 
Career winning percentage is a limited metric for evaluating players, because it tends to favor those - like Borg - who had relatively short careers. Borg quit the game just after he had been dethroned by McEnroe as world No. 1. Had he remained his career winning percentage would inevitably have declined, as it does for every older player. You can't have it both ways - giving Borg credit for what he "might have done" if he had remained in the game while at the same time touting his actual career winning percentage over an abbreviated career as evidence of his unique greatness.

For players with long careers the overall winning percentage is indicative but not definitive of greatness. Chris Evert is an acknowledged all time great who, among other achievements, has the highest winning percentage in the Open era. Despite this, the majority of tennis analysts would rank both Martina Navratilova and Steffi Graf higher, and some are also beginning to place Serena Williams ahead of her. The key issue is that players are judged primarily on the basis of titles won and high rankings attained. A high winning percentage indicates consistency, but it is valued primarily in terms of how this translates into these other accomplishments. Evert was no slouch in these matters, as 156 titles and 18 majors attest, but there are non-trivial reasons why most analysts would rank one or two Open era women players even higher.

Winning percentage over a player's peak years is a better criterion, since it indicates dominance. I'm not sure that Borg has much of an advantage over Federer here, however, since Federer's won-lost records for 2004 through 2006 were 74-6, 81-4 and 92-5 respectively. If you look at other indicators of dominance the case for Federer is even stronger. Between 2004 and 2007 he won 11 of the 16 majors played and the WTF three times. Of the twenty most important tournaments played over the period Federer won 14, was a finalist in three and a semi-finalist in two others. No other player, male or female, Open or amateur eras, has won 11 majors over 4 years. Federer also reached the finals of ten straight majors (and, eventually, 18 of 19 straight), was a semi-finalist in 23 straight and held the No. 1 ranking for a record consecutive 237 weeks. Peak Borg (1978-1980) was certainly dominant, but not to anything like this extent.

So we are left with claims that Federer's French Open win was a fluke (although he reached the finals on four other occasions) or that he faced "weak competition," which is always the last refuge of fans whose favorites' statistics do not stand up to comparison. I would take this last argument seriously if its advocates were to provide a set of testable criteria for evaluating competition across generations, but they never do so. What's left of their argument is pure assertion, which does not work very well.

i agree with you that the match winning statistic favors players with relatively shorter careers. nevertheless, i think it is an excellent statistic that still effectively reflects how dominant a player has been. note that at no point have i ever claimed that borg is a greater player than federer. all i had done was to state borg's case.

why do analysts think martina and steffi are greater players? well martina has a better H2H to evert as well as a superior doubles record. and steffi won more majors. basically that's it. if we agree to this bit of analysis, if and when nadal actually match federer in GS titles, will the H2H actually tip the stakes in nadal's favor?
 
i agree with you that the match winning statistic favors players with relatively shorter careers. nevertheless, i think it is an excellent statistic that still effectively reflects how dominant a player has been. note that at no point have i ever claimed that borg is a greater player than federer. all i had done was to state borg's case.

why do analysts think martina and steffi are greater players? well martina has a better H2H to evert as well as a superior doubles record. and steffi won more majors. basically that's it. if we agree to this bit of analysis, if and when nadal actually match federer in GS titles, will the H2H actually tip the stakes in nadal's favor?

I would have no issue with incorporating a match winning percentage statistic in the criteria used for evaluating players. However, if we are using it to measure dominance it would probably be preferable to restrict it to a player's prime years. Otherwise this metric could produce counterintuitive results, meaning that a player's post-prime career would have negative value because his winning percentage would inevitably decline.

H2H records between contemporaries matter if the players' achievements (not defined only in terms of the number of majors won) are roughly equivalent. If Nadal were to add a couple of seasons similar to his 2008 and 2010 efforts and Federer did not add significantly to his record their records would be comparable. In those circumstances the H2H record would, for me, tip the balance in Nadal's favor.
 
Last edited:
I agree with you, but in the end, "probably" doesn't quite cut it. That would be like saying:

Without Nadal, Federer would probably have won 5 consecutive FO's and would be considered one of the greatest claycourters ever.

Or, had he faced some half-decent competition, Sampras would never have passed the 10-gs mark.

Facts are, Nadal was there and he beat Federer in all these FO finals. And Sampras took advantage of his poor to non-existent competition to win 14 slams.

Likewise, Borg's achievements must be counted by what he *actually achieved*, not what he *could have achieved* had he played longer.

merlinpinpin, I contradict. In Borg's case we can make a reasonable interpolation in prognosing that Björn would probably have continued (at least for some more years) playing strong tennis thus still keeping high figures. This is a case of possibility. We can't rule out that it actually would have happened (as before said it's even more likely than unlikely).

In Sampras' and Federer's case your assumptions are different from mine. They are irreal because these scenarios actually did not happen!

That's the big difference between the Borg case and the Sampras/Federer case.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top