Okay, some Davenport chokes in slams

[Coria]

Guys, 1(Lindsay came up so small in the 2001 semi with Capriati. She played poorly, getting clocked by a player she had been beating.

2)She choked away a big second set lead to Venus in 2000 Wimby semi. 3)Lost again to Venus in 2000 Open final. Had chances to win both sets and performed poorly in trying to defend her title. 4)Lost to Venus 6-1 in the third set of 2003 Wimby Quarterfinal. There was no fight and she went down lamely. 5)Also lost to Venus 6-1 in third set of 2001 Wimby quarterfinal.
She blew this year's Wimbledon final. Yes, Venus played well but Lindsay blew how many match points???

6)After destroying Serena in second set of '00 Aussi semi, she can't sustain momentum, coughs up early third set lead and loses. 7)After destroying Serena in first set of 2005 Aussi final, lets her back in match and completely psychologically falls apart losing 12 of next 15 games to HURTING and FAT Serena. Also choked to Serena in 2001 US OPEN QF, blowing two serve chances to close out match.

9) Blows match to Sharapova in 2004 Wimby semi after easily winning first set and having lead in second set. Chokes in tiebreaker (I watched it). Then after she loses, she FALLS APART and stops fighting, going down meekly 6-1.

10) Blows so many chances to close out QF match against Demenieva in this year's US OPEN. Serves several times for match and can't close deal.

11) Blows NUMEROUS chances to close out match against Henin-Hardenne in 2003 Aussi QF, losing 9-7 in the third.

12) Chokes big-time to Mauresmo in '99 Aussie Semifinal, losing 7-5 in third set after winning the first and being up in both second and third sets to inferior opponent.

13) In '97 French Round of 16, blows 7-5, 4-1 lead to Majoli and gets killed ini third set.

14) Heavily favored Lindsay completely falls apart and loses to Natalie Tauziat in US Open QF in straight sets.

15) Gets destroyed by Henin in Open semi in 2003--terrible performance.

16) Gets killed by Pierce in Quarterfinal of 2005 French (the elusive major she wanted so badly and performed so poorly)

17) Comes up lame against Martinez in '98 Wimby semi, showing no fight in third set.

There's some examples guys.

 

[156MPHserve]

She is better but still I must agree, she's a talented player with very little grey matter between the ears.

 

[Coria]

Well, I laid out some examples of Davenport's numerous Slam chokes and her coming up small. That's what some of you wanted. Where's your responses now???

 

[andfor]

Well, I laid out some examples of Davenport's numerous Slam chokes and her coming up small. That's what some of you wanted. Where's your responses now???

Remember this?

....................... She still has made it to #1, has 3 GS's in singles, an Olypmic Gold Medal in singles and has won over $20 million in prize money. Also has 35 doubles titles, been ranked #1 in doubles and has 4 doubles GS. Looks as though shes won a handful of Mixed GS's as well and has a few Fed Cup's under her belt.

Win Loss Record - 2005 Singles 54-8, Career 689-178
Win Loss Record - 2005 Doubles 9-5, Career 362-110

I find her career quite impressive. See for yourself. http://www.wtatour.com/players/playe...PlayerID=40106

Overall choker? Not in my book.

Looks as if your choking on your own premise by having to start numerous threads to try to get your insipid point across.

 

[Coria]

Yes, she has had a very nice career---an excellent career. But she is not one of the all time great champions of the sport. I'm just keeping it real. She has not demonstrated the ability to be a great, clutch competitor in many meaningful, huge matches.

When you consider the Court's, the Graf's, Navratilova's, Seles'--she pales, totally pales in comparison. Monica was stabbed in her prime and yet STILL owns 8 more majors than Lindsay. Venus, with her up and down career, owns 2 more majors, Serena has 4 more.

Capriati, who has had four or five legitimate years on the circuit compared to Davenport's 12 or 13 is TIED with her in majors. Hingis has two more. Henin has more.

She's just not an all-time legend, that's all. That's what I'm saying.

 

[andfor]

Look at everything she's accomplished. For what its worth she'll be a HOF inductee like it or not. That's not an if its a matter of when. When it comes to GOAT's some are better than others, fact. Just keeping it real. LOL

 

[Kevin Patrick]

Coria,
some were chokes(though I generally only use that word in reference to matches that players have big chances to win & come up short, not matches that they played poorly from beginning to end. ex. Novotna-Graf vs Dementieva-Myskina French Open Final)

1) I don't think she choked that '01 Australian Open SF vs Capriati. She was the heavy favorite & played a terrible match. It happens sometimes-Federer at the french this year for example. But I agree, it was a bad loss.

2)I don't think any of those losses to Venus were chokes. Venus was the favorite in almost all those matches. I know you hate Venus' "sloppy" play, but she won a lot in those years, & clearly had Davenport's number.
In the 2000 W Final, Davenport was injured if I recall. You say she choked by losing a lead in the 2nd set, but she was already down a set, so it wasn't like she was ever in a winning position in that match. I think Venus was clearly the better player in the 2000 US Open, she was on a very long win streak. Not a choke by any definition.
And I don't think she choked this year's wimbledon final vs venus. that was a very high quality match from both players(& Venus was the favorite among oddsmakers) Davenport had one match point, it was on Venus' serve & she came up with a winner. Not a choke, just a close loss.

3)Serena has a 10-4 lead over Davenport, she's always been a tough opponent for her even very early in Serena's career. But this year's Australian was a very bad loss, for the poor way in which Davenport competed the last 2 sets. I don't think the other losses were bad losses, again Serena matches up very well against her.

4)Sharapova at 2004 Wimbledon. Bad loss to very inexperienced opponent. Davenport was cruising that tournament & Sharapova was struggling. Rain delay clearly affected both players.

5) Yeah the Dementieva loss could be called a choke. But she played poorly the entire match, so it seemed appropriate that she couldn't take that opportunity in the 3rd set. But even if she won that match, not a guarantee that she would have won the event, it was only a QF.

6) Yeah the Henin match was pretty bad as well. I remember Henin cramping. Plus this was when Henin was still just a challenger, not a champion.

7)I don't think the '99 loss to mauresmo was a choke, Mauresmo played great that day. I don't recall Davenport having chances to win that match(even though it was close)

8)Now you're bringing up pre '98 US Open davenport matches. I don't know if those should count. It's well documented that she performed poorly in majors from '94-'97, and that she was overweight then as well.
I don't think her French Open losses were chokes(maybe that Majoli loss, but even if she won that match, it's not like she would have won the French that year. Ditto this year vs. Pierce. The French should be excluded from this discussion, clay just isn't her surface.

9) I don't think the '03 US Open Semi vs Clijsters was a choke, Clijsters was favored & was playing much better than Davenport coming in to that match.

10)Don't remember the '98 Australian Open SF vs Martinez. But Martinez was a tough opponent for her early in her career. And this was pre '98 Open davenport. Different player prior to her breakthrough slam. Ditto the Tauziat loss.

So here were the really bad losses that davenport has had, IMO:

'04 Wimbledon SF vs Sharapova(but even if she won, not sure if she would have beaten Serena in final)

'04 US Open SF vs Kuznetsova-this was biggest opportunity Davenport had to win another Slam in years. She would have played Dementieva in the final. Won first set easily, got injured in 2nd set. hadn't lost a match the entire summer.

'05 Australian Open Final-mentioned reasons why earlier.

I think she played the majors pretty well from '98 to '03. She's only started getting tight/losing to lower ranked players the last year & a half. Not a good trend.

 

[Coria]

I'm sorry, if you really watch that match with Venus at Wimbledon, Davenport did not step it up in certain situations and let Venus hang around--which Lindsay does a lot.

Her loss to Dementieva was unacceptable. Too many times, she played points without thought and construction. She doesn't take the time to think through situation when she is pressed in tight situations in majors.
She too easily accepts mistakes, does not slow down enough and is often not aggressive enough to take the match from her opponent. She let Dementieva and Venus find their rythym too much and did not play aggressively enough when needed.

Disagree with you on several other post Aussie 2000 matches as well, but I'm beating a dead horse. Bottom line, no majors in the last six years--just not cutting it to be considered one of the all time greats. Top 20 women of all time? Sure. Top 10? No.

 

[andfor]

--just not cutting it to be considered one of the all time greats. Top 20 women of all time? Sure. Top 10? No.

It looks as if your backing off your critical opinions of Lindsey.

Your definition of GOAT is a contridiction. You give her top 20 of all-time but say because she is not a Top 10 and that does not cut it. As I said earlier, she will be inducted to the International Tennis Hall of Fame thus validating her GOAT status.

Coria says she is not a all time great and the Tennis Hall of Fame will eventually enshrine her. Hmmmm, maybe you could stop the induction with your arguments.

 

[Coria]

Do you realize that many are in the hall of fame? They are great players who deserve enshrinement. But there are different levels of hall of famers.

Davenport is a hall of famer--she has won a very impressive 51 titles, has been number one of different occasions and has won a ton of matches. That's not my argument. I'm not backing off anything.

You have not been able to disprove my point that she has choked A LOT in major events. She is a Hall of Famer--but not a top level Hall of Famer--not even close.

Just like in baseball. A guy like Gary Carter gets in. That's great. Is he anywhere in Ted Williams' or Mike Schmidt's orbit? No. Just like Lindsay is nowhere even close to Martina, Margeret Court, Evert, Graf (especially Graf) and even Seles. She's a level of greatness OR two below them--those are the cold hard facts. Objectively, Davenport should have AT LEAST 8-10 slams for how many she has played (about 50) and how many times she has gotten to the quarters, semis and finals.

 

[andfor]

Look at everything she's accomplished. For what its worth she'll be a HOF inductee like it or not. That's not an if its a matter of when. When it comes to GOAT's some are better than others, fact. Just keeping it real. LOL

You have a short memory. I quoted myself as a reminder to what I said earlier. The rest of what you say about her choking is opinion and an insult to those who beat her. You can say she choked those matches but I do not see you giving credit to her opponents other than demeaning their wins.

You could say the same thing you're trying to prove here about Korda, Novatona, Pierce, Vilas, Nastase, Chang, Rafter, Muster, Brugera, Ivanisivic, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. Could any player win more GS' s? Based on what you're saying they all should and only Sampras, Laver, Navratilova, Evert and a few select others are the only good players in history. Lighten up.

Stop the hate and get your facts straight.

 

[Jack Romeo]

2)She choked away a big second set lead to Venus in 2000 Wimby semi.

venus and lindsay were in the finals of the 2000 wimby, not the semis. i don't remember davenport being up by a "big lead" in the 2nd set. she may have been up by a break but they were both playing badly that a one-break advantage wasn't really a big lead.

6)After destroying Serena in second set of '00 Aussi semi, she can't sustain momentum, coughs up early third set lead and loses. 7)After destroying Serena in first set of 2005 Aussi final, lets her back in match and completely psychologically falls apart losing 12 of next 15 games to HURTING and FAT Serena. Also choked to Serena in 2001 US OPEN QF, blowing two serve chances to close out match.

she did not play serena at the 2000 AO. She actually won that tournament! she beat hingis in the finals. serena lost early in that event.

at the 2001 us open qf, lindsay did not serve for the match. it was actually she who was playing catch up. serena won the 1st set, then had match point in the 2nd set but lindsay came back and stole the 2nd set. in the 3rd, they played evenly, but it was serena who scored the first break and was able to hang on for the win.

13) In '97 French Round of 16, blows 7-5, 4-1 lead to Majoli and gets killed ini third set.

i don't consider her failures at the french open as "chokes" because she's never been really comfortable there.

15) Gets destroyed by Henin in Open semi in 2003--terrible performance.

it was clijsters who beat her in 2003, not henin. jennifer capriati was the one who choked to henin.

16) Gets killed by Pierce in Quarterfinal of 2005 French (the elusive major she wanted so badly and performed so poorly)

again, not a choke job, just a very bad match. a choke is when you actually are in a position to win but somehow still end up losing. it is different from playing badly. davenport was never in a position to win this match. mary was playing so well and lindsay was playing so poorly.

]17) Comes up lame against Martinez in '98 Wimby semi, showing no fight in third set.

they were in the '98 wimbledon semis? how can that be? novotna, hingis, zvereva and tauziat were the ones in the semifinals. davenport and martinez were nowhere in sight at that time!

 

[jhhachamp]

Well Coria, after reading Jack the hack's post, it appears you are resorting to fairly lowly tactics. Not saying that I even disagree with the general point of your posts on this topic, but when you go about basically making stuff up to support your claims, you lose my respect.

 

[Kevin Patrick]

He was a little off on dates, but I figured out what he meant.

Jack, he was referring to the '98 Australian Open semis vs Martinez. I think Davenport was favored in that match, but Martinez had always given her problems at that point in their head-to-head. And he was referring to the '99 US Open semi vs Serena but wrote '00 Australian instead.

Davenport may have gotten tight more than a few times in majors recently, but I never thought she was an 8-10 majors kind of player. Nor was that ever predicted for her.

And even if she is a choker, she's not that bad compared to the majority of women's player of the last few years. Seems like they all choke away big matches.

 

[Coria]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coria
2)She choked away a big second set lead to Venus in 2000 Wimby semi.


venus and lindsay were in the finals of the 2000 wimby, not the semis. i don't remember davenport being up by a "big lead" in the 2nd set. she may have been up by a break but they were both playing badly that a one-break advantage wasn't really a big lead.

I meant the finals. Venus was barely 20 years old and had never won a major. Davenport came up very small in the match, especially up a break serving for the second set. Get a copy of the tape. She has the experienced one but played very tentatively the whole match and made numerous errors when she had chances in both sets.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Coria
6)After destroying Serena in second set of '00 Aussi semi, she can't sustain momentum, coughs up early third set lead and loses. 7)After destroying Serena in first set of 2005 Aussi final, lets her back in match and completely psychologically falls apart losing 12 of next 15 games to HURTING and FAT Serena. Also choked to Serena in 2001 US OPEN QF, blowing two serve chances to close out match.


she did not play serena at the 2000 AO. She actually won that tournament! she beat hingis in the finals. serena lost early in that event.

I meant the US Open semi. She won the second set 6-1 and had all the momentum. Then she was leading TWICE in the third set and got tight. Serena was very sloppy in that match and Davenport had many chances to close the deal and get back to the final.

at the 2001 us open qf, lindsay did not serve for the match. it was actually she who was playing catch up. serena won the 1st set, then had match point in the 2nd set but lindsay came back and stole the 2nd set. in the 3rd, they played evenly, but it was serena who scored the first break and was able to hang on for the win.

I remember Davenport being up in the third after winning that second set. Serena was very deflated and yelling at herself. Davenport did not take advantage of the momentum from stealing the second set. She had numerous chances to take control of the third and didn't get it done. Serena was not playing that great. She was ABYSMAL in the finals agains Venu just a few days later. Tons and tons of erros.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Coria
13) In '97 French Round of 16, blows 7-5, 4-1 lead to Majoli and gets killed ini third set.


i don't consider her failures at the french open as "chokes" because she's never been really comfortable there.

That's very weak. She was the better player and blew it. Surface or not, she blew a golden chance there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Coria
15) Gets destroyed by Henin in Open semi in 2003--terrible performance.


it was clijsters who beat her in 2003, not henin. jennifer capriati was the one who choked to henin.

Yes, got the player mixed up. But Lindsay did play horribly in that match. Against Henin, she totally blew the R 16 match against her, losing 9-7 in the third. I watched that match. Davenport fought but choked on numerous occasions to put the third set away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coria
16) Gets killed by Pierce in Quarterfinal of 2005 French (the elusive major she wanted so badly and performed so poorly)


again, not a choke job, just a very bad match. a choke is when you actually are in a position to win but somehow still end up losing. it is different from playing badly. davenport was never in a position to win this match. mary was playing so well and lindsay was playing so poorly.

But she had just had the best match on clay of her life probably in beating Clijsters in the R 16. To play POORLY in such a big event that she has never won can be a sign of not handling the pressure very well. That's been a Davenport hallmark in slams. She plays very well one match and is nowhere near the same player a day or two later. That's MENTAL--no physical. It's more than "just a bad day at the office" She's done this many times.!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Coria
]17) Comes up lame against Martinez in '98 Wimby semi, showing no fight in third set.

I got this one incorrect. She got destroyed by Tauziat in the quarterfinal.
It was the AUSSIE semi she choked to Martinez. Same year, same player just wrong event--may bad.

 

[Coria]

Well Coria, after reading Jack the hack's post, it appears you are resorting to fairly lowly tactics. Not saying that I even disagree with the general point of your posts on this topic, but when you go about basically making stuff up to support your claims, you lose my respect.

Lenny, I mean Steve, I did not make stuff up. I just didn't get a few specifics right about the particular event and messed up a little. But the number of chokes and the situations are entirely accurate. Look it up for yourself. I was tired and had a lot of info in front of me. I should have responded later after getting some rest.

 

[Kevin Patrick]

I think the main point we can all agree on-we've watched too much WTA over the years. A lot of those matches were very poor, esp that 2000 Wimbledon Final. No one should re-watch that match.

 

[MonkeyPox]

Another good tourney win for Lindsay this weekend. Top 10 of all time of the women? I'd say so. Though I agree that the Hall of Fame thing is completely immaterial, they let just about anyone in there now. But Lindsay is certainly quite the icon and still have her playing after spanning a few of the generations of great players is a big treat for people in 2005 and beyond hopefully. I think she is the last of a dying or dead breed of players in terms of longevity. And even more so when you consider that she saved some of her better tennis for the end of her career. I'd like to see her (and Capriati if she makes it back in January) to make one last grab at it. They certainly put these girls today to shame. Even though Serena certainly has has greater success at the grand slams, I don't see her lasting half as long as Davenport has. I gue ss we're already seeing that now. I just say give her the respect she deserves and to her credit does seem to care whether she gets or not. It's also nice to see someone who isn't terribly insecure at the top of the rankings for a change.