Old school or new school tennis?

[TennisCJC]

Racquets are different. Strings are different. Now strategy is different, and in some cases rightly so (dropshots, serving wide in the deuce court, etc.) teachers are telling players to push their opponent back, instead of going side to side. Bring your opponent in , before it was come to net as much as possible! Before it was hit ur approach shots deep. I could go on and on. Players today have different strengths and weaknesses than 30 years ago. Players used to volley better. Now they return serve better.
The cut off between old school and new school tennis is:
35 & under players play new school
35 & over players play old school


My question is for old school players 5.0 and under. Have you adapted your game to new school tennis? For example the forehand taught now is entirely different than the one taught 30 years ago. Now it’s a whip action. im not convinced these new techniques are better. They produce more power and spin but less control .

I am 69 and think I hit a fairly modern forehand. E/SW hybrid grip, prep with high racket head, small loop on the right (front) of the body, etc... If by "old school" you mean the fairly straight back take back where the racket head points roughly at the back fence and then it is fairly straight forward to contact and the follow through extends out toward the opposing fence - think Connors, McEnroe, Evert, then I don't do that and haven't done that ever. The truth is fairly modern technique has been around since the 1980s - Agassi, Wilander, Courier and others.

I also think at the amateur level, you need to develop an all court game. This is especially true on hard courts. The ability to come to the net, volley and hit overheads on hard courts is invaluable. I don't play a lot of singles in leagues now, but I did very well 10 to 15 years ago and I loved it when I played a young basher that tried to play the heavy topspin ground game. They normally overhit returns so if you can serve, you can get a number of unreturned serves. They don't like it when you come to the net. They tend to not like changes of pace from the baseline as in hit a flatter ball or hit a low slice and you might get an error.

TBH, even in the "modern" game, tennis is pretty much the same as 40 years ago. Get your 1st serve in, hit your ground strokes deep with moderate pace, be aggressive when you get a short ball, come to the net when you get any opportunity, block strong serves back, hit weak serves back aggressively, and lob if you opponent comes to net behind a good ball. Tennis is simple.

 

[Rosstour]

I am 69 and think I hit a fairly modern forehand. E/SW hybrid grip, prep with high racket head, small loop on the right (front) of the body, etc... If by "old school" you mean the fairly straight back take back where the racket head points roughly at the back fence and then it is fairly straight forward to contact and the follow through extends out toward the opposing fence - think Connors, McEnroe, Evert, then I don't do that and haven't done that ever. The truth is fairly modern technique has been around since the 1980s - Agassi, Wilander, Courier and others.

I also think at the amateur level, you need to develop an all court game. This is especially true on hard courts. The ability to come to the net, volley and hit overheads on hard courts is invaluable. I don't play a lot of singles in leagues now, but I did very well 10 to 15 years ago and I loved it when I played a young basher that tried to play the heavy topspin ground game. They normally overhit returns so if you can serve, you can get a number of unreturned serves. They don't like it when you come to the net. They tend to not like changes of pace from the baseline as in hit a flatter ball or hit a low slice and you might get an error.

TBH, even in the "modern" game, tennis is pretty much the same as 40 years ago. Get your 1st serve in, hit your ground strokes deep with moderate pace, be aggressive when you get a short ball, come to the net when you get any opportunity, block strong serves back, hit weak serves back aggressively, and lob if you opponent comes to net behind a good ball. Tennis is simple.

I gave you a like until that last line lol

 

[10sbeast888]

I gave you a like until that last line lol

Chris Evert tennis did look simple.

Sinner seems to draw 3 circles before contact. THAT. can’t possibly be simple.

 

[J011yroger]

Racquets are different. Strings are different. Now strategy is different, and in some cases rightly so (dropshots, serving wide in the deuce court, etc.) teachers are telling players to push their opponent back, instead of going side to side. Bring your opponent in , before it was come to net as much as possible! Before it was hit ur approach shots deep. I could go on and on. Players today have different strengths and weaknesses than 30 years ago. Players used to volley better. Now they return serve better.
The cut off between old school and new school tennis is:
35 & under players play new school
35 & over players play old school


My question is for old school players 5.0 and under. Have you adapted your game to new school tennis? For example the forehand taught now is entirely different than the one taught 30 years ago. Now it’s a whip action. im not convinced these new techniques are better. They produce more power and spin but less control .

Did you just make this crap up?

J

 

[J011yroger]

I'm over 35. Adapted grip from continental to eastern for more spin on both sides. Pol;y strings help too.

I'm 44 and have been playing with "modern grips" since 1986.

J

 

[J011yroger]

it may be my location (L.A.) but 3.5/4.0 can do that here, 4.0 easy peasy ..

Next time I'm in town let's hit.

J

 

[liimey86]

Players that don't do the right motions don't do them because they don't start from the support of the ground. They just don't know what the motion is. Once they know they'll use legs appropriately.

.. Along those lines, for the players on the forum that believe the forehand is initiated from the upper body, can I ask .. what specific parts of the upper are moving at the start of the stroke, and what specific parts below those are not. Since/if you're not using ground force to create that movement, what part of the lower body is acting as the non-moving brace or base to "counter resist" the upper body acceleration, since it isn't the ground?

If any replies forthcoming, would appreciate not using the term "torso". Pelvis, spine, rib cage, shoulder blades, upper arms, etc. would be clearer.

 

[ppma]

Along those lines .. for the players on the forum that believe the forehand is initiated from the upper body, can I ask .. what specific parts of the upper are moving at the start of the stroke, and what specific parts below those are not. Since/if you're not using ground force to create that movement, what part of the lower body is acting as the non-moving brace or base to "counter resist" the upper body acceleration, since it isn't the ground?

If any replies forthcoming, would appreciate not using the term "torso". Pelvis, spine, rib cage, shoulder blades, upper arms, etc. would be clearer.

I wait for others to give my answer.

 

[StringSnapper]

I listened to this video many times. It cleared up a lot for me regarding the 'step forward, shift your weight, linear forehand' and the more 'modern circular forehand'. In one case the head and neck are seen to move forward and in the more circular there is a much more circular motion.

In this case he is correcting a torque on the players knee. If you single frame through looking at his knee you can see the stress twisting his knee.

Listen to what he says very carefully and put the captions on.

Excellent use of video overlays for displaying the more linear vs circular forehands.

One of the most informative videos that I have ever seen. I was able to identify the linear vs circular forehand techniques and recognize the current ATP circular forehands

Interesting he says less strain on the front knee, looks like far more strain to me. But he did pick one where the modern shot hes jumping up wildly, it looks when he lands its painful so he has to hop

 

[Chas Tennis]

Interesting he says less strain on the front knee, looks like far more strain to me. But he did pick one where the modern shot hes jumping up wildly, it looks when he lands its painful so he has to hop

Earlier, in his original stroke, it seemed to me that I saw his weight rotating over his knee, a hinge joint with his foot planted. The knee joint does not rotate much at all that way. But the details of his knee injury were not discussed.

After the stroke change his foot was not planted anymore.

In addition, he looks strong and is heavy.

 

[big ted]

well im DONE. in my opinion if ur over 40 theres no use to change. especially if you’ve been swinging a certain way for 20 years.

 

[ProStaffFanatic]

well im DONE. in my opinion if ur over 40 theres no use to change. especially if you’ve been swinging a certain way for 20 years.

I'ld say it depends on how big a change. If it means going away for a year to really turn something around 180 degrees, then no prob not.

Even though, then still.. . If you're motivated enough to do it, why not. It's not impossible. But it'll probably be hard and frustrating.

Then there are the lesser mere tweaks you could probably drill in in just a few weeks..

But it's all good. As long as you enjoy the game, right?

 

[big ted]

But it's all good. As long as you enjoy the game, right?

YES. and truth be told a lot of these modern players have trouble with flatter balls, slices, and opponents net play so if its about trying to “keep up with the game”, its not really necessary imo…

 

[user92626]

I'ld say it depends on how big a change. If it means going away for a year to really turn something around 180 degrees, then no prob not.

Even though, then still.. . If you're motivated enough to do it, why not. It's not impossible. But it'll probably be hard and frustrating.

Then there are the lesser mere tweaks you could probably drill in in just a few weeks..

But it's all good. As long as you enjoy the game, right?

Yup.

I think you can keep the "larger" motions that you have developed, but if you would have to tweak or add smaller details that are necessary for the game. That's what I'm doing!

 

[J011yroger]

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J

 

[J011yroger]

J

 

[ChaelAZ]

J

+100 internet points for a family fave pop culture reference.

 

[10sbeast888]

J

not at all!

frame by frame.

poasting pics so painful.... will later.

 

[10sbeast888]

https://imgur.com/a/ubDiz1R

Safin is a typical non-poly-native. there is never any intent to load the ESR. the routing is going behind him, so pic 1 the strings face the back, thru pic2 and 3 he continues to load the wrist extension. this is a back to front old school load, very similar to Agassi. Imgur pain in the neck, Safin pic 3 corresponds to the Rub pic1 below... but it's easy to tell the sequence though.

https://imgur.com/a/5FXu9GC

Rub is typical poly-native so in pic 1 the strings face the right, pic2 is when he pulls forward for the 'ATP flip' resulting in a loaded ESR position in pic3. notice the difference in the lag. this is the new school outside to inside load. all current ATP pros have this type of load, at the extreme end of the ESR that tip gets whipped to the inside.

 

[10sbeast888]

https://imgur.com/a/ubDiz1R

Safin is a typical non-poly-native. there is never any intent to load the ESR. the routing is going behind him, so pic 1 the strings face the back, thru pic2 and 3 he continues to load the wrist extension. this is a back to front old school load, very similar to Agassi. Imgur pain in the neck, Safin pic 3 corresponds to the Rub pic1 below... but it's easy to tell the sequence though.

https://imgur.com/a/5FXu9GC

Rub is typical poly-native so in pic 1 the strings face the right, pic2 is when he pulls forward for the 'ATP flip' resulting in a loaded ESR position in pic3. notice the difference in the lag. this is the new school outside to inside load. all current ATP pros have this type of load, at the extreme end of the ESR that tip gets whipped to the inside.

@Rosstour - see the sequence here, notice Rub's max lag angle, as a result of pulling when the racket tip is still pointing to the right... this is the reason Peak Tennis Michael calls his sequence 'diamond sideways pull'... if you pull like this the tip gets whipped to the inside.

 

[Rosstour]

@10sbeast888 thanks bro.

Rublo definitely not a bad model to chase for my FH.

 

[OTMPut]

The modern f/h requires above average to extreme range of motion for shoulder, elbow and wrist joints. How sustainable is this at rec level?

 

[J011yroger]

The modern f/h requires above average to extreme range of motion for shoulder, elbow and wrist joints. How sustainable is this at rec level?

No, it doesn't.

Just because you are looking at pros doesn't mean it doesn't work for normal folks.

I can't run, swim, or jump like an Olympian, doesn't mean I can't run, swim, or jump.

I would say modern strokes are easier than great big classic strokes for rec players.

Most of what people define as classic strokes at the rec level is just arming the ball.

J

 

[ppma]

Most of what people define as classic strokes at the rec level is just arming the ball.

Which pradoxycally is what is typically seen around ttw by the self-called modern game players/coaches.

 

[OTMPut]

No, it doesn't.

Just because you are looking at pros doesn't mean it doesn't work for normal folks.

I can't run, swim, or jump like an Olympian, doesn't mean I can't run, swim, or jump.

I would say modern strokes are easier than great big classic strokes for rec players.

Most of what people define as classic strokes at the rec level is just arming the ball.

J

Of course. It is a range, not binary. You can swim but perhaps not with Shinji Takeuchi level of fluidity.
One does not have to do the "torchlight" the ball with butt cap level of shoulder/elbow rotation and still enjoy decent injury free club level tennis.

 

[StasTs]

well im DONE. in my opinion if ur over 40 theres no use to change. especially if you’ve been swinging a certain way for 20 years.

I'm not fully sure about this. I'm now 50 years old and in last 5 years I've changed my forehand pretty significantly. Look at this:

Here in 2020, takeback is without loop, racquet go direct back, almost fully extended arm with racquet follow arm. Racquet lag is present, but nowhere enough.

Here is this winter. Visible loop on takeback. Preparation phase where racquet point up (not enough ). Bigger lag. Better kinetic chain.

As result, I'm playing much better comparing 5 years ago, even that I'm older.

 

[10sbeast888]

I'm not fully sure about this. I'm now 50 years old and in last 5 years I've changed my forehand pretty significantly. Look at this:

Here in 2020, takeback is without loop, racquet go direct back, almost fully extended arm with racquet follow arm. Racquet lag is present, but nowhere enough.

Here is this winter. Visible loop on takeback. Preparation phase where racquet point up (not enough ). Bigger lag. Better kinetic chain.

As result, I'm playing much better comparing 5 years ago, even that I'm older.

great fh.

@Rosstour see the before and after.

in the 'before' there was this issue of losing the loading space.

 

[10sbeast888]

Which pradoxycally is what is typically seen around ttw by the self-called modern game players/coaches.

well well, someone is jealous.

 

[big ted]

I'm not fully sure about this. I'm now 50 years old and in last 5 years I've changed my forehand pretty significantly. Look at this:

Here in 2020, takeback is without loop, racquet go direct back, almost fully extended arm with racquet follow arm. Racquet lag is present, but nowhere enough.

Here is this winter. Visible loop on takeback. Preparation phase where racquet point up (not enough ). Bigger lag. Better kinetic chain.

As result, I'm playing much better comparing 5 years ago, even that I'm older.

im impressed and glad its working for you, ur forehand was solid even at the beginning.
With the more modern loopy strokes , do u find it harder to control the depth and height over the net than before? those were the two problems i had , i think with the loose wrist gives more power and spin for sure but less control?!

 

[StasTs]

im impressed and glad its working for you, ur forehand was solid even at the beginning.
With the more modern loopy strokes , do u find it harder to control the depth and height over the net than before? those were the two problems i had , i think with the loose wrist gives more power and spin for sure but less control?!

On my level, I need as much power and spin as possible to stay relevant. The reason for this, I'm getting older and can't keep up with young people on movement. So, I need hit harder Control for me always comes with spin, I was never the guy with golden touch. With old stroke mechanics I was more limited what I can do with the ball. Actually, height over the net is improved, because new stroke allows racquet head go down faster under the ball. Previously it was common problem that racquet head path was too linear => less spin, less height over net. Still old habits show themselves when I'm under stress or got enough enough time or want to strike ball even harder (flatter the ball too much).

 

[J011yroger]

im impressed and glad its working for you, ur forehand was solid even at the beginning.
With the more modern loopy strokes , do u find it harder to control the depth and height over the net than before? those were the two problems i had , i think with the loose wrist gives more power and spin for sure but less control?!

You realize it's not a switch? Not loose wrist or tight wrist?

J

 

[big ted]

You realize it's not a switch? Not loose wrist or tight wrist?

J

Modern strokes get their power and spin way more from the wrist and arm than older strokes. it’s a different timing and technique. ( and don’t argue with me about this haha)


jeez if u had a loose wrist if u hit with a 13oz wood racquet what would happen?

 

[StasTs]

Modern strokes get their power and spin way more from the wrist and arm than older strokes. it’s a different timing and technique. ( and don’t argue with me about this haha)


jeez if u had a loose wrist if u hit with a 13oz wood racquet what would happen?

This is misconception. Clear, racquet speed will be reduced, but it's not because of the wrist. You're saying yourself that it's "loose wrist". You shouldn't put much strain on wrist on modern forehand. New edge forehand (see Jack Sock) is a bit different story. Old technique require more arm/wrist strength as modern one as modern one much more of the whip motion.

 

[J011yroger]

Modern strokes get their power and spin way more from the wrist and arm than older strokes. it’s a different timing and technique. ( and don’t argue with me about this haha)


jeez if u had a loose wrist if u hit with a 13oz wood racquet what would happen?

Something like this?

✂️ Jack Kramer

46 seconds · Clipped by j011yroger · Original video "Warm up and first game." by j011yroger

youtube.com

J

 

[J011yroger]

This is misconception. Clear, racquet speed will be reduced, but it's not because of the wrist. You're saying yourself that it's "loose wrist". You shouldn't put much strain on wrist on modern forehand. New edge forehand (see Jack Sock) is a bit different story. Old technique require more arm/wrist strength as modern one as modern one much more of the whip motion.

He specifically told you not to argue with him about it!

Jeez, kids these days have no reading comprehension.

J

 

[big ted]

Something like this?

✂️ Jack Kramer

46 seconds · Clipped by j011yroger · Original video "Warm up and first game." by j011yroger

youtube.com

J

yes. im not strong enough to swing a wooden racquet like that assuming ur video isn’t AI

 

[user92626]

Something like this?

✂️ Jack Kramer

46 seconds · Clipped by j011yroger · Original video "Warm up and first game." by j011yroger

youtube.com

J

Hitting like that, you gonna destroy Beastman aka @10sbeast888 (this is referring to that thread about a match)

Have you guys noticed that the shyttier the courts, the better the players. The reverse is also true.. the better the courts the shyttier the players..

I ...commented quite a bit on court conditions.

 

[Rosstour]

Hitting like that, you gonna destroy Beastman aka @10sbeast888 (this is referring to that thread about a match)

Have you guys noticed that the shyttier the courts, the better the players. The reverse is also true.. the better the courts the shyttier the players..

I ...commented quite a bit on court conditions.

That court looks great to me

 

[J011yroger]

Hitting like that, you gonna destroy Beastman aka @10sbeast888 (this is referring to that thread about a match)

Have you guys noticed that the shyttier the courts, the better the players. The reverse is also true.. the better the courts the shyttier the players..

I ...commented quite a bit on court conditions.

Hey! That's my house.

J

 

[10sbeast888]

Hitting like that, you gonna destroy Beastman aka @10sbeast888 (this is referring to that thread about a match)

Have you guys noticed that the shyttier the courts, the better the players. The reverse is also true.. the better the courts the shyttier the players..

I ...commented quite a bit on court conditions.

'That thread about a match'..

one thing it did was allowing the 3 amigos to get something off their chest LMAO... read that thread again, the other 2 amigos basically said the same thing.

 

[J011yroger]

'That thread about a match'..

one thing it did was allowing the 3 amigos to get something off their chest LMAO... read that thread again, the other 2 amigos basically said the same thing.

Got my new phone yesterday. Gonna test out the camera, haven't seen myself hit since Covid.

I probably look like peak Federer by now.

J

 

[Rosstour]

Hey! That's my house.

J

Is it really? That is awesome

 

[J011yroger]

Is it really? That is awesome

Yea, and there is a small angry person who lives with me that wants to know why the courts at my country club look perfect and our home court looks like heck.

J

 

[Rosstour]

Yea, and there is a small angry person who lives with me that wants to know why the courts at my country club look perfect and our home court looks like heck.

J

Where is this house? And did you buy the house with the court, or build it yourself? Having a backyard court is a dream of mine, was close but now very far away

 

[big ted]

Hey! That's my house.

J

no wonder ur so good

 

[user92626]

Hey! That's my house.

J

Yea, and there is a small angry person who lives with me that wants to know why the courts at my country club look perfect and our home court looks like heck.

J

Oh dang. A private court!
Can you play dubs without the lines?

Re the small angry person... time for daddy to pick up 2nd job and make it look like the country club?

 

[Digital Atheist]

@Rosstour - see the sequence here, notice Rub's max lag angle, as a result of pulling when the racket tip is still pointing to the right... this is the reason Peak Tennis Michael calls his sequence 'diamond sideways pull'... if you pull like this the tip gets whipped to the inside.

This is probably as good a place as any given the conversation. Here are some forehands off a very debilitated wooden backboard, Good practice though, since the ball return path is somewhat random and you have to keep the feet moving and stay focused in order to hit more than one ball. Can be tiring for old buggers like me who aren't as fit as they should be! I thought my forehand was more like Safin, but the max lag position is closer to Rublev (not comparing the overall forehand, just the lag or slot position that apparently doesn't exist). Sometimes when "reaching" I opt for a full closed stance which I know is not the best choice, but given the right knee is more sensitive to heavy loading that's just what my body has intuitively gone with.

Disclaimer: For the newbies I will say it again - 56 yo with dodgy knees and a meniscus tear so there are limitations, and some movement patterns I just avoid (subconsciously). I don't know a whole lot about the biomechanics of the modern forehand, or the jargon that often gets used and debated (lag, snap, the slot, windshield wiper etc.) but I do know what they are. I am self taught so don't get too excited, but I am confident I don't have the perma35 fake wiper (a reference I now understand)!

Some are in real time at the end. Looking at those I wouldn't say they were old school .... but new school?
@10sbeast888: I don't see a lot of ESR when I am hitting so perhaps you or @J011yroger or anyone who actually understands that can explain it to me and what I can do better?

P.S. There's only one guy I hit with that is worth recording and he isn't keen on appearing on a tennis forum via YT, but I'm working on that one. I might have to buy him some beer, but he drinks like a fish when it's free so I'm not sure that's a good idea either.

 

[user92626]

Some are in real time at the end. Looking at those I wouldn't say they were old school .... but new school?
@10sbeast888: I don't see a lot of ESR when I am hitting so perhaps you or @J011yroger or anyone who actually understands that can explain it to me and what I can do better?

P.S. There's only one guy I hit with that is worth recording and he isn't keen on appearing on a tennis forum via YT, but I'm working on that one. I might have to buy him some beer, but he drinks like a fish when it's free so I'm not sure that's a good idea either.

DA, you came to the right place.

@10sbeast888 loves to rebuild your FH and he has an academy open to everyone.

 

[10sbeast888]

DA, you came to the right place.

@10sbeast888 loves to rebuild your FH and he has an academy open to everyone.

the academy for the people.. DA is already in (no rebuild needed though)

what are you waiting for VP.

 

[user92626]

the academy for the people.. DA is already in (no rebuild needed though)

what are you waiting for VP.

I am in. and waiting for your instruction.Jump up if you can't see me in the back.