On groundstroke sequence

[guang2024]

I am experimenting letting my arm completely loose while doing my hip and body rotation, this resulted in significant racquet lag behind the body and I'm basically using my body to drag my entire arm forward.
Two issues came up:
1. this puts immense pressure on my shoulder as you can imagine
2. it is very hard to control the racquet face during the swing because the arm is so loose.

Am I being too extreme with the relaxation? when do I actually initiate the arm? please help

 

[10sbeast888]

I am experimenting letting my arm completely loose while doing my hip and body rotation, this resulted in significant racquet lag behind the body and I'm basically using my body to drag my entire arm forward.
Two issues came up:
1. this puts immense pressure on my shoulder as you can imagine
2. it is very hard to control the racquet face during the swing because the arm is so loose.

Am I being too extreme with the relaxation? when do I actually initiate the arm? please help

assuming you are talking about the fh.

1. the arm is loose but it's not paralyzed lol.... the peck muscle has to work to keep the arm from falling behind. the peck also has adduction to aid the rotational swing to the left.

2. start the attack with the leading edge of the racket, and keep it closed as long as possible. do NOT attack the ball with the sweet spot facing the ball. the mental picture should be a skim of the ball - give the ball a hair cut off the top, instead of hitting thru the ball.... the mental picture should also not expect a heavy impact (but you will get a heavy impact). Due to physics the racket head does slow down at impact... but your mental picture should be hair-cutting a weightless shadow of the ball, without the racket slowing down at all. This swing image with a closed face is what allows the pros to hit the cover off the ball without losing control.

 

[guang2024]

assuming you are talking about the fh.

1. the arm is loose but it's not paralyzed lol.... the peck muscle has to work to keep the arm from falling behind. the peck also has adduction to aid the rotational swing to the left.

2. start the attack with the leading edge of the racket, and keep it closed as long as possible. do NOT attack the ball with the sweet spot facing the ball. the mental picture should be a skim of the ball - give the ball a hair cut off the top, instead of hitting thru the ball.... the mental picture should also not expect a heavy impact (but you will get a heavy impact). Due to physics the racket head does slow down at impact... but your mental picture should be swinging thru a weightless shadow of the ball, without the racket slowing down at all. This swing image with a closed face is what allows the pros to hit the cover off the ball without losing control.

thanks man, I had the wrong idea haha

 

[Dragy]

I am experimenting letting my arm completely loose while doing my hip and body rotation, this resulted in significant racquet lag behind the body and I'm basically using my body to drag my entire arm forward.
Two issues came up:
1. this puts immense pressure on my shoulder as you can imagine
2. it is very hard to control the racquet face during the swing because the arm is so loose.

Am I being too extreme with the relaxation? when do I actually initiate the arm? please help

Arm shouldn’t be actually lagging behind the torso, neither should you feel any stress in healthy shoulder. In order to be able to not have tight pec/shoulder (which is important for consistency and injury prevention), you need to rotate your whole arm so that the elbow points down and almost forward. This “locks” the shoulder socket from falling behind the torso plane and allows to deliver energy from torso rotation with no loss neither stress.

Also it’s important that it’s actually quite brief stage, not something you do long and focused. You kind of flow through this part of the swing and immediately transition to swinging at the ball with the racquet head, once your hitting shoulder has traveled enough and reached proper “opening” (chest facing flat to target or slightly more rotated, hitting shoulder just in front of the other one).

 

[optic yellow]

Arm shouldn’t be actually lagging behind the torso, neither should you feel any stress in healthy shoulder. In order to be able to not have tight pec/shoulder (which is important for consistency and injury prevention), you need to rotate your whole arm so that the elbow points down and almost forward. This “locks” the shoulder socket from falling behind the torso plane and allows to deliver energy from torso rotation with no loss neither stress.

Also it’s important that it’s actually quite brief stage, not something you do long and focused. You kind of flow through this part of the swing and immediately transition to swinging at the ball with the racquet head, once your hitting shoulder has traveled enough and reached proper “opening” (chest facing flat to target or slightly more rotated, hitting shoulder just in front of the other one).

So the elbows shifts to this position as the head is dropping to the slot?

 

[Dragy]

So the elbows shifts to this position as the head is dropping to the slot?

"WTA-style", you complete the takeback hitting "elbow-down" arm position.
Modern FH, arm and racquet drops, shoulder starts moving with torso uncoiling, elbow turns down & forward, racquet head lags back behind the hand... very similar to serve drop, in a way.

 

[10sbeast888]

So the elbows shifts to this position as the head is dropping to the slot?

what @Dragy refers to is really just the External Shoulder Rotation ESR, it does have a limit (the lock) so you get a rubber band effect, which releases the energy in the ISR.

yes when it drops to the slot.

 

[ballmachineguy]

So the elbows shifts to this position as the head is dropping to the slot?

Hahaha!

 

[optic yellow]

Hahaha!

m8 you said there are two steps on the downstroke no?

 

[ballmachineguy]

m8 you said there are two steps on the downstroke no?

Explain the “slot.”

 

[optic yellow]

Explain the “slot.”

Well, when a man really loves a woman...

The slot is just the the hand position that keys the transition from the first step to the second step. It's the idea there is a certain correct track for your racquet to take to hit the shot you are trying to hit and you are finding the start of it.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Well, when a man really loves a woman...

The slot is just the the hand position that keys the transition from the first step to the second step. It's the idea there is a certain correct track for your racquet to take to hit the shot you are trying to hit and you are finding the start of it.

Well, those are not the “steps” I reference. Also, I wonder why baseball has never come up with a term for the position where the hands drop from approximately the shoulder to just above the hip before heading to contact? Actually, I more wonder why tennis did.

R.I.P Johnny Hockey.

 

[Dragy]

Well, those are not the “steps” I reference. Also, I wonder why baseball has never come up with a term for the position where the hands drop from approximately the shoulder to just above the hip before heading to contact? Actually, I more wonder why tennis did.

R.I.P Johnny Hockey.

I’m not into baseball, it’s purely USA thing. But if every ball in tennis came in over the plate, hip-high, and players was already standing there… it’s almost golf, with a bit of timing involved!

 

[10sbeast888]

Well, those are not the “steps” I reference. Also, I wonder why baseball has never come up with a term for the position where the hands drop from approximately the shoulder to just above the hip before heading to contact? Actually, I more wonder why tennis did.

R.I.P Johnny Hockey.

since the loading in the FH is an ESR, dropping the racket and arm from height can deepen this load, which means more energy to release during the ISR forward swing. It also makes timing easier as the human brain understands gravity very well and can feel the drop well.... as opposed to and non-loop back and forward old school swing you need muscle to reverse direction. not ideal.

the deepened ESR then ISR also promotes move spin than promotes forward speed, a swing suited to take advantage of the polys, and the bigger head size... that's why almost all the pros have polys on 100+ sq in frames these days.

 

[optic yellow]

Well, those are not the “steps” I reference. Also, I wonder why baseball has never come up with a term for the position where the hands drop from approximately the shoulder to just above the hip before heading to contact? Actually, I more wonder why tennis did.

What are the steps you reference then? Post unit turn there are two very clear segments of Djokovic FH, the one where the racquet continues back and down and the one where he releases the kraken.

R.I.P Johnny Hockey.

I've legitimately been in a daze since I saw this. No sense of how to process.

 

[optic yellow]

I’m not into baseball, it’s purely USA thing. But if every ball in tennis came in over the plate, hip-high, and players was already standing there… it’s almost golf, with a bit of timing involved!

a) I am not sure the Japanese would appreciate this framing of national domains.

b) The most golf-like are the ones knee-high or lower.

 

[Dragy]

b) The most golf-like are the ones knee-high or lower.

The golf reference was because the ball sits there in exact spot waiting for your swing.

Ok, in baseball the ball comes to the exact area, but nothing like tennis variety.

 

[optic yellow]

The golf reference was because the ball sits there in exact spot waiting for your swing.

Ok, in baseball the ball comes to the exact area, but nothing like tennis variety.

Well there is plenty of variety in baseball. Strike zone is knees to middle of chest. Not like tennis true. The reference to golf makes sense either way now

 

[Dragy]

Well there is plenty of variety in baseball. Strike zone is knees to middle of chest. Not like tennis true. The reference to golf makes sense either way now

I’m exaggerating re. baseball, obviously there’s a lot of skill for batting. As there’s in golf, though in a different way.

Tennis thing with finding the slot and all the preparation-initiation sequence is to solve the variety of positions, situations and incoming ball qualities while being able to produce intended ball, high quality ball even when rushed, or facing uncomfortable/unpredictable ball.

PS but I’m waiting for @ballmachineguy video, possibly he knows a way to solve this all in a much simpler way.

 

[optic yellow]

high quality ball even when rushed

Well this is what the FH slice is for

I’m exaggerating re. baseball, obviously there’s a lot of skill for batting. As there’s in golf, though in a different way.

Yes, baseball harder to make contact and faster, golf much harder to make good contact and actually varying from that. All with some level of overlap and relevance to each other.

Tennis thing with finding the slot and all the preparation-initiation sequence is to solve the variety of positions, situations and incoming ball qualities

Yes though this is exactly it. Brain has to calculate "firing solution" for a swing stroke like a sci-fi movie captain. Don't think it trains anyway but repetition and experimentation, once the common backbone of the swing stroke is verifiably learned.

 

[ballmachineguy]

O

What are the steps you reference then? Post unit turn there are two very clear segments of Djokovic FH, the one where the racquet continues back and down and the one where he releases the kraken.

Your description of the second step is where people get messed up and therefore struggle for years.

I've legitimately been in a daze since I saw this. No sense of how to process.

Me too!
Unfortunately, when people come across another vehicle that they assume is doing something it shouldn’t (stopped in a clear lane of traffic, for instance, when it’s actually something or someone unseen blocking the path) they get upset and find a way around. It didn’t help matters that the driver had “five or six beers,” before getting behind the wheel.

 

[optic yellow]

Your description of the second step is where people get messed up and therefore struggle for years.

That is because if you try to release the kraken when you haven't found the right slot you're gonna have a bad time

Me too!
Unfortunately, when people come across another vehicle that they assume is doing something it shouldn’t (stopped in a clear lane of traffic, for instance, when it’s actually something or someone unseen blocking the path) they get upset and find a way around. It didn’t help matters that the driver had “five or six beers,” before getting behind the wheel.

Human society desperately needs more reliable systems for filtering out its trash.

 

[ballmachineguy]

That is because if you try to release the kraken when you haven't found the right slot you're gonna have a bad time

Haha, no.

Human society desperately needs more reliable systems for filtering out its trash.

Guy made a huge mistake. I’ve done stupid stuff, no one was ever hurt, fortunately.

 

[optic yellow]

Haha, no.

Well its not what you meant by what you said but its also true.

Guy made a huge mistake. I’ve done stupid stuff, no one was ever hurt, fortunately.

Hard to be so forgiving but true there can be different profiles of behavior.