On the measurement of court speeds
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Andres
G.O.A.T.
This is what I said:Ah, I see now. I got lost in all of the Physics
"What is under the top surface has almost no effect whatsoever. A firmer soil under the grass won't make much of a difference. How long the grass is, will. The type of seed, will. If the soil is more compact underneath the grass, wouldn't change much.
Or don't you know a claycourt has 5 feet or a hard surface (compressed clay, crushed stone (or grave), chunks of bricks, smaller chunks of brick, and another layer of compacted clay) underneath the slow, slow top layer of crushed bricks?
Carpet is a really soft surface, yet it comes out really fast because there's almost no friction. Now, put SAND over the carpet, and you'll get a weird surface. Low bounces, but with a vertical component, making the ball SIT UP. A low bounce, slow surface (just like artificial grass with sand on top)
Friction comes into account way more than the firmness of the surface. What's underneath the surface itself is not really relevant.
Put a normal furry carpet on top of the fastest hardcourt, and you ruined the surface by slowing it down"
Hope it's clearer now
D
Deleted member 25923
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Yup, reading comprehension helps a lot in my caseThis is what I said:
"What is under the top surface has almost no effect whatsoever. A firmer soil under the grass won't make much of a difference. How long the grass is, will. The type of seed, will. If the soil is more compact underneath the grass, wouldn't change much.
Or don't you know a claycourt has 5 feet or a hard surface (compressed clay, crushed stone (or grave), chunks of bricks, smaller chunks of brick, and another layer of compacted clay) underneath the slow, slow top layer of crushed bricks?
Carpet is a really soft surface, yet it comes out really fast because there's almost no friction. Now, put SAND over the carpet, and you'll get a weird surface. Low bounces, but with a vertical component, making the ball SIT UP. A low bounce, slow surface (just like artificial grass with sand on top)
Friction comes into account way more than the firmness of the surface. What's underneath the surface itself is not really relevant.
Put a normal furry carpet on top of the fastest hardcourt, and you ruined the surface by slowing it down"
Hope it's clearer now
Lsmkenpo
Hall of Fame
Any investigation of surface speed and COR, must consider the ball type being used on the surface.
In 2001,the ITF introduced 3 different ball types to be used on different surfaces in an attempt to homogenize the speed of the game.
Article Excerpt:September 2001
"The International Tennis Federation has stepped in to counter the power serves of the men's game by introducing three types of balls to be used according to the pace of the surface.
The International Tennis Federation has stepped in to counter the power serves of the men's game by introducing three types of balls to be used according to the pace of the surface.
The changes, made at the ITF's annual general meeting in Cancun, Mexico at the weekend, means the type of surface the match is played on will determine the type of ball used.
The ITF voted "overwhelmingly" to use new balls in future play. Ball type 1 (fast speed) is identical in size to the standard ball except it is manufactured with harder rubber. Ball type 2 (medium speed) is the standard ball and ball type 3 (slow speed) is six percent larger in diameter than the standard ball and tends to move slower in flight. All are the same weight as a standard ball.
"I want to congratulate the AGM for their approval of this important amendment and thank the tennis ball manufacturers for their support during this experimental period and in the run–up to the AGM," said ITF president Francesco Ritti.
The introduction of the different balls will slow down the power and speed of serves on hard courts, but speed up the game on slow surfaces, such as clay.
The ITF said the larger type 3 ball flies off the racket at the same speed as a standard ball, but will slow down during flight to give the receiver about 10 percent more reaction time."http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...es-of-balls-to-counter-power-game-670049.html
http://www.itftennis.com/technical/rules/history/index.asp#2004
In 2001,the ITF introduced 3 different ball types to be used on different surfaces in an attempt to homogenize the speed of the game.
Article Excerpt:September 2001
"The International Tennis Federation has stepped in to counter the power serves of the men's game by introducing three types of balls to be used according to the pace of the surface.
The International Tennis Federation has stepped in to counter the power serves of the men's game by introducing three types of balls to be used according to the pace of the surface.
The changes, made at the ITF's annual general meeting in Cancun, Mexico at the weekend, means the type of surface the match is played on will determine the type of ball used.
The ITF voted "overwhelmingly" to use new balls in future play. Ball type 1 (fast speed) is identical in size to the standard ball except it is manufactured with harder rubber. Ball type 2 (medium speed) is the standard ball and ball type 3 (slow speed) is six percent larger in diameter than the standard ball and tends to move slower in flight. All are the same weight as a standard ball.
"I want to congratulate the AGM for their approval of this important amendment and thank the tennis ball manufacturers for their support during this experimental period and in the run–up to the AGM," said ITF president Francesco Ritti.
The introduction of the different balls will slow down the power and speed of serves on hard courts, but speed up the game on slow surfaces, such as clay.
The ITF said the larger type 3 ball flies off the racket at the same speed as a standard ball, but will slow down during flight to give the receiver about 10 percent more reaction time."http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...es-of-balls-to-counter-power-game-670049.html
http://www.itftennis.com/technical/rules/history/index.asp#2004
This is what I said:
"What is under the top surface has almost no effect whatsoever. A firmer soil under the grass won't make much of a difference. How long the grass is, will. The type of seed, will. If the soil is more compact underneath the grass, wouldn't change much.
Or don't you know a claycourt has 5 feet or a hard surface (compressed clay, crushed stone (or grave), chunks of bricks, smaller chunks of brick, and another layer of compacted clay) underneath the slow, slow top layer of crushed bricks?
Carpet is a really soft surface, yet it comes out really fast because there's almost no friction. Now, put SAND over the carpet, and you'll get a weird surface. Low bounces, but with a vertical component, making the ball SIT UP. A low bounce, slow surface (just like artificial grass with sand on top)
Friction comes into account way more than the firmness of the surface. What's underneath the surface itself is not really relevant.
Put a normal furry carpet on top of the fastest hardcourt, and you ruined the surface by slowing it down"
Hope it's clearer now
You are greatly underestimating the effect of the undersurface. Its effect depends of course on the thinness or thickness of the top surface. On thin grass, a firmer soil will make a big difference, especially toward the end of the tournament when much of the grass is gone. On clay, if the top layer is kept very thin, as is now the case at RG, the degree of firmness of the undersurface will play an increased role, and so on.
Increased undersurface firmness increases restitution, the more so the more you thin out the top surface.
To sum. If you try to play tennis on a mattress, it does not matter at all if the mattres is on top of cement or on top of another mattress.
But if you try to play tennis on a blanket, it matters a great deal whether you extend the blanket on a mattres, or if you extended on cement.
Any investigation of surface speed and COR, must consider the ball type being used on the surface.
In 2001,the ITF introduced 3 different ball types to be used on different surfaces in an attempt to homogenize the speed of the game.
Article Excerpt:September 2001
"The International Tennis Federation has stepped in to counter the power serves of the men's game by introducing three types of balls to be used according to the pace of the surface.
The International Tennis Federation has stepped in to counter the power serves of the men's game by introducing three types of balls to be used according to the pace of the surface.
The changes, made at the ITF's annual general meeting in Cancun, Mexico at the weekend, means the type of surface the match is played on will determine the type of ball used.
The ITF voted "overwhelmingly" to use new balls in future play. Ball type 1 (fast speed) is identical in size to the standard ball except it is manufactured with harder rubber. Ball type 2 (medium speed) is the standard ball and ball type 3 (slow speed) is six percent larger in diameter than the standard ball and tends to move slower in flight. All are the same weight as a standard ball.
"I want to congratulate the AGM for their approval of this important amendment and thank the tennis ball manufacturers for their support during this experimental period and in the run–up to the AGM," said ITF president Francesco Ritti.
The introduction of the different balls will slow down the power and speed of serves on hard courts, but speed up the game on slow surfaces, such as clay.
The ITF said the larger type 3 ball flies off the racket at the same speed as a standard ball, but will slow down during flight to give the receiver about 10 percent more reaction time."http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...es-of-balls-to-counter-power-game-670049.html
http://www.itftennis.com/technical/rules/history/index.asp#2004
Interesting,
So it seems the apparent homogenization of the game across surfaces is more the result of ball changes meant to achieve that goal, than surface changes.
