ON (The Roger) tennis shoes

What's the point of a signature shoe if the player's input isn't a factor?
Um, because the name sells, no matter what the input of the athlete is. BTW, the "input" of the athlete might not have anything to do with the way the shoe fits, and can be only stylistic.

I can't think of a single signature line in basketball (e.g. Jordan, Kobe, LeBron, KD, etc.) where the shoe is not constructed from a custom last based on the shape of an athlete's foot. Moreover, the signature shoes built from these lasts are the same ones that are sold to the public. How do I know this? KD's feet are on the very narrow side and his sneakers reflect that; many people with average width and wider do not find KD's signature shoes comfortable. On the other end of the spectrum, LeBron's sneakers have a wider base and heel, so people with narrow feet (like myself) find them too spacious and clunky.
The above is wrong for all sorts of reasons. Have you thought about the fact that both KD and KB are/were sponsored by the same company, and releasing two different fits covers more foot types?

There is no reason to believe that custom anything is the basis for a line of products. That is the definition of "custom", it is a one off, unique to the type of foot based on which it is made. It doesn't benefit anyone, who doesn't have that exact foot. The custom shoes of a number of tennis players differ from the shoes they are advertising, and rightly so.

It's not trivial to build an athletic shoe around a custom last. Not only does the shape of the midsole have to match, but all the other pieces of the upper (heel counter, tongue, toe box, panels, etc.) needs to be the correct shape; there's a lot of prototyping and testing to get all the elements right. If you change the last, you will need to change all the other elements as well, so I'm very much in doubt towards your claim that "literally all top players of today get custom lasted shoes, if they ask for them."
A custom last is like every other last, so what you say doesn't make sense. It is not more difficult to make a shoe from one last than from another. Wawrinka has custom shoes from Yonex, and that is from before he was a Major winner, Nishikori and Dimitrov have custom shoes, and they were never Majors winner, Murray got a custom Under Armour shoes, and UA is a small company compared to the big brands (as is ON, for that matter), so clearly what I am saying has enough support in the facts.

Also I'd like to see cited evidence for your claim that "custom lasts have been known in tennis for well over a decade." A custom last is not as simple as a custom orthotic.
Well, look for shoes for the aforementioned players. Comparisons between the custom shoes of those players and the retail versions have been made on these boards, and these comparisons show clear differences in the last as well as the construction of the shoe (materials, features etc).

:cool:
 
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PistolPete23

Professional
Um, because the name sells, no matter what the input of the athlete is. BTW, the "input" of the athlete might not have anything to do with the way the shoe fits, and can be only stylistic.



The above is wrong for all sorts of reasons. Have you thought about the fact that both KD and KB are/were sponsored by the same company, and releasing two different fits covers more foot types?

There is no reason to believe that custom anything is the basis for a line of products. That is the definition of "custom", it is a one off, unique to the type of foot based on which it is made. It doesn't benefit anyone, who doesn't have that exact foot. The custom shoes of a number of tennis players differ from the shoes they are advertising, and rightly so.



A custom last is like every other last, so what you say doesn't make sense. It is not more difficult to make a shoe from one last than from another. Wawrinka has custom shoes from Yonex, and that is from before he was a Major winner, Nishikori and Dimitrov have custom shoes, and they were never Majors winner, Murray got a custom Under Armour shoes, and UA is a small company compared to the big brands (as is ON, for that matter), so clearly what I am saying has enough support in the facts.



Well, look for shoes for the aforementioned players. Comparisons between the custom shoes of those players and the retail versions have been made on these boards, and these comparisons show clear differences in the last as well as the construction of the shoe (materials, features etc).

:cool:
So what you're saying is that Nike just arbitrarily made KD's signature shoe narrow and LeBron's shoes wider so that they could offer two very different fits? Seems to me that if Nike wants to sell more shoes, they would target the 95% confidence interval for fit instead of selling sneakers that actually reflect the ultra narrow or wider-than-average feet of their signature athletes. Oh and I guess it's a complete coincidence that Kobe's signature shoes feature lower to the ground cushioning setups while LeBron's shoes have max-air based cushioning. Why is it so hard for you to accept that athletes with signature shoes provide performance input towards their namesake product?

I also searched the forum and found no convincing evidence that non-signature tennis players were getting shoes built from a custom LAST that's specific to their foot shape. I found custom Nishikori Vapors with larger tongue and other customized elements that aren't specific to foot shape, but definitely no evidence of shoes with a completely different shape from retail. To your point that it's not more difficult to make a shoe from one last to another, you misunderstood me completely; my argument was that if you change the last, you'll have to repeat the prototyping and testing all over again because the last determines the shapes of the individual elements that comprise the shoe. For all the top tennis pros wearing the Vapor X model, do you realistically think each of them is wearing a model built specifically from the ground up based on their personal foot shape?
 
So what you're saying is that Nike just arbitrarily made KD's signature shoe narrow and LeBron's shoes wider so that they could offer two very different fits? Seems to me that if Nike wants to sell more shoes, they would target the 95% confidence interval for fit instead of selling sneakers that actually reflect the ultra narrow or wider-than-average feet of their signature athletes.
What does a "95% confidence interval" mean?

So, what you are saying is that the "ultra narrow" and "wider than average" shoes don't fit the mass consumer? Who are the people buying those shoes: people that put them in a frame? Since apparently Nike is not selling to satisfy the customer demand, but "true to custom last" shoes.

Oh and I guess it's a complete coincidence that Kobe's signature shoes feature lower to the ground cushioning setups while LeBron's shoes have max-air based cushioning. Why is it so hard for you to accept that athletes with signature shoes provide performance input towards their namesake product?
You are confused. I never said that the athletes with signature shoes don't provide performance input towards the namesake product. In fact, I said the opposite here in this very thread regarding Federer and his input on the ON shoes.

What I did say was that

1) custom lasts are a different thing from signature lines
2) custom lasts are of no use for any other person, which is why they are custom
3) that it is not more difficult to make a shoe out of a custom last than from any other last. They are literally the same thing: a last

Additionally I said that input might not be linked to fit at all. Maybe you don't make a difference between a player's input and his fit. Let me explain. A custom last determines how the shoe fits. An input from the player may address issues of external styling, materials, how a shoe plays etc. All relevant to the shoe, but not directly to the fit of the shoe.

I also searched the forum and found no convincing evidence that non-signature tennis players were getting shoes built from a custom LAST that's specific to their foot shape. I found custom Nishikori Vapors with larger tongue and other customized elements that aren't specific to foot shape, but definitely no evidence of shoes with a completely different shape from retail.
You have to look harder.

To your point that it's not more difficult to make a shoe from one last to another, you misunderstood me completely; my argument was that if you change the last, you'll have to repeat the prototyping and testing all over again because the last determines the shapes of the individual elements that comprise the shoe. For all the top tennis pros wearing the Vapor X model, do you realistically think each of them is wearing a model built specifically from the ground up based on their personal foot shape?
Your last question derives from your faulty understanding of how a last is built. All the elements of a shoe are derived from the understanding what they do in a shoe. A last doesn't change that, and last builders are literally specialised in adjusting just those elements to any differences that may occur. NOTHING in the way the shoe is designed or produced changes as a result from a different last.

Over the years I have had a number of dress shoes made on my custom lasts: the technique of lasting can vary significantly, yet the results are almost identical. To add to that, on the same custom last different models are lasted. Models that comprise of completely different designs, and, last(ly), a last done per hand takes relatively little time to produce, and once produced it can take almost infinite number of shoes done on it, so if it is about a long term customer that is NOTHING as resources for a big company.

:cool:

EDIT: Took me 2 minutes to find a thread with Dimitrov's custom Vapors compared to the retail ones. Similar threads for other players are around:

 
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one-hand

Rookie
A pair of classic Stan Smiths look better. Besides, does anyone really need all that high-tech sh*t while chilling?
 

Harry_Wild

G.O.A.T.
I purchased the Adidas Stan Smith tennis shoes about 5 years ago when a shoe stores was closing. I use them for everything. Still have two brand new pairs out of 6 that I purchased. The casual ones are made cheaply and not meant for tennis playing. They are sold to department stores and have to same look and shape of the original Stan Smith. Adidas should be ashamed of themselves!
 

JGads

Legend
I purchased the Adidas Stan Smith tennis shoes about 5 years ago when a shoe stores was closing. I use them for everything. Still have two brand new pairs out of 6 that I purchased. The casual ones are made cheaply and not meant for tennis playing. They are sold to department stores and have to same look and shape of the original Stan Smith. Adidas should be ashamed of themselves!
This is a really confusing post.
 

pasta

Semi-Pro
Was that "Proton" feeding him balls at 60km/h so it made him look so good at the "nursing home" age !?
 

L16M

New User
The Roger Pro was available on KITH recently and ON said that there is a limited launch 9th July
 

Tshooter

G.O.A.T.
This is my Roger Sneaker story but it's more a sad story about tennis.

So I go to Kith, NYC this evening. I go up to the 2nd floor to the checkout/info desk. You don't have to wear a mask in stores anymore but you are supposed to on public transit so most people keep a mask on them so I have one. I'm wearing into the store a mask with Roger on it -- a pandemic gift. :love: And I'm running a tennis awareness experiment.8-B It went like this:

Woman 1: "may I help you?"
Me: (points to my mask)
Woman 1: "you need a mask?"
Me: "uh no, I'm here for this (I point to the mask, again)"
Woman 1: (no idea what I'm getting at)
Me: (pointing) "it's Roger Federer"
Woman 1: no reaction
Me: "do you know who Roger Federer is?
Woman 1: "no"
Me: (turning to Woman 2 also behind the desk) "do you know who Roger Federer is?
Woman 2: "sorry, no"
Me: "he plays tennis. he's a professional tennis player. I think you guys are the exclusive distributor of the new Roger Federer tennis sneaker."
Woman 2: "oh"
Woman 2: calls over another sales person. This person has heard of Federer. And the sneaker. A small victory for tennis.

These two 20-something women are working at Kith in NYC not Foot Locker in Peoria and would probably consider themselves aware of new sneaker fashion. The store they work at is exclusive distributor of Roger sneaker. Yet Federer doesn't ring a bell. :( It's not unique. I was hunting for a sneaker the week before. I went to Nike and Adidas in Soho. No one knows who Federer is (Nike guy knew of Serena and Venus (y)). Also, neither large store had a single tennis sneaker in-store.

People like me that were under the delusion that FEDR has transcended tennis need to wake up. :giggle:

As far as the sneaker, I think it looks great. I passed because for my foot it wasn't a good fit. I asked to try another tennis sneaker (to compare fit across brand) but they didn't have any other tennis sneaker. :cool:

Anyone that ordered it that likes the fit I think will be very happy with it. It was surrounded on the shelf by sneakers costing >$400-500. Apparently it is a bargain at $200. o_O

 
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Wore mine on the courts for the first time tonight. Love them. Fit like a glove. For me, it feels like the Vapor 9 but maybe a bit more substantial. Given the expense and soft rubber, I’ll likely just use them for matches.
 
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