On this day, 14 years ago...

#4
The beginning of the weak clay era with Kuerten virtually retiring and Coria disappearing shortly after and never having a chance with his height in the first place. Great time to be the Nadal.

:cool:
LOL a Fed fan talking about weak era. Of course it's a weak clay era otherwise Federer would have won 7 RG if it wasn't for Nadal. Is that true? :eek::eek:

You are basically suggesting that Fed is a clay court mug. :-D:-D
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
#5
LOL a Fed fan talking about weak era. Of course it's a weak clay era otherwise Federer would have won 7 RG if it wasn't for Nadal. Is that true? :eek::eek:

You are basically suggesting that Fed is a clay court mug. :-D:-D
Well, I never thought about Federer as clay court great.

Who was Nadal's main rival on clay, according to you?

:cool:
 
#10
On clay?

So he had a player who had all the negatives of the matchup and technology up until 2014 for one main rival, and a guy who was ready to contend with him at RG in 2012 for another on top of both of them having a game more adapted to HC than on clay?

:cool:
So who was Federer's main rival on grass and hard in 2004-2009 again? :-D:-D

Let's me guess. A player who had a game more adapted to Clay than on Hard/grass. :cool:
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
#16
What do you mean "about the performances in the Majors"?

How many HC/Grass slam for Roddick/Hewitt/Safin/Del Potro, etc?

How many RG for Fed/Novak?

Not a huge difference here.
Hahaha. Why are you moving the goalposts?

You know what "Main rival" means, right?

Also, let's see, how many did the said rivals for Federer win in the mentioned time: Safin AO 2005, Djokovic AO 2008, Nadal Wim 2008, Nadal AO 2009, Del Po USO 2009.

Federer and Djokovic at RG: Federer 2009

Not a huge difference, right?

:cool:
 
#17
What do you mean "about the performances in the Majors"?

How many HC/Grass slam for Roddick/Hewitt/Safin/Del Potro, etc?

How many RG for Fed/Novak?

Not a huge difference here.
Sabrina, do not waste your time in an endless discussion. It's pretty obvious that Federer and Nole represent strong competition on clay, they were only stopped by Nadal.

Federer and Djokovic could have surpassed Borg as clay GOATs if not for Nadal. They could be in 5-6 RG majors each one, if not for Nadal.
 
#18
Hahaha. Why are you moving the goalposts?

You know what "Main rival" means, right?

Also, let's see, how many did the said rivals for Federer win in the mentioned time: Safin AO 2005, Djokovic AO 2008, Del Po USO 2009.

Federer and Djokovic at RG: Federer 2009

Not a huge difference, right?

:cool:
It was Federer's fault that he allowed Safin, Djokovic and Del Potro (especially Safin and Del Potro to win those two GS). He couldn't dominate his rivals on hard/grass like Nadal did on clay. :eek::eek:

Fact.
 
#19
It was Federer's fault that he allowed Safin, Djokovic and Del Potro (especially Safin and Del Potro to win those two GS). He couldn't dominate his rivals on hard/grass like Nadal did on clay. :eek::eek:

Fact.
Yeah, so ridiculous to call Safin and Del Potro strong competition on hard but Federer weak competition on clay.

Federer has more finals at RG than Safin or Del Potro on hard courts (and there are 2 Grand Slams on hard!).
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
#20
It was Federer's fault that he allowed Safin, Djokovic and Del Potro (especially Safin and Del Potro to win those two GS). He couldn't dominate his rivals on hard/grass like Nadal did on clay. :eek::eek:

Fact.
So, you forfeited your position.

Now, when you did that, I listed Federer's rivals on HC and grass, but I haven't seen you listing anyone on clay besides Federer and Djokovic?

Sjoderling should be there for all of his two runs.

Who else?

:cool:
 
#22
So, you forfeited your position.

Now, when you did that, I listed Federer's rivals on HC and grass, but I haven't seen you listing anyone on clay besides Federer and Djokovic?

Sjoderling should be there for all of his two runs.

Who else?

:cool:
Coria in 2005. Maybe Ferrer in 2012-2014. :unsure:

However, I already said that federer's rivals on grass/hard in 2004-2009 was no better than Fed/Novak on Clay (Nadal's rivals on clay). :-D:-D. So You can't have it both ways :cool:
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
#24
Yeah, so ridiculous to call Safin and Del Potro strong competition on hard but Federer weak competition on clay.

Federer has more finals at RG than Safin and Del Potro together on hard courts (and there are 2 Grand Slams on hard!).
It wasn't that ridiculous, as your boy can attest after his SF against Del Po in 2009, and Djokovic after his match against Safin at Wimbledon. It is the ceiling of the game they have that counts.

Also, your position is so weak that you cannot make a post without throwing in a couple of misleading statements to make it: in a weak clay field Federer is good enough to cut through it to reach finals just running on his general tennis level (we know what happened when he met a clay court great in Kuerten). In the the cut throat level of competition on HC is much more difficult to make it consistently to the finals.

I am in awe how you tried to isolate only Safin and Del Po as Federer's competition on Hard. They were only part of the many competitors Fed had and each one turned to play him when at his relative best (except for Djokovic).

Of course, from your post is missing the fact how Federer matches up against Nadal etc, etc. Truth is that, despite of having possibly the greatest player overall in his early RG career as a main competitor, Nadal had too big of a matchup and technological advantage to be challenged to the max the way other players could against Federer. I wonder whether you even recognise the existence of that matchup, so do you?

:cool:
 
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Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
#25
Coria in 2005. Maybe Ferrer in 2012-2014. :unsure:

However, I already said that federer's rivals on grass/hard in 2004-2009 was no better than Fed/Novak on Clay (Nadal's rivals on clay). :-D:-D. So You can't have it both ways :cool:
The fact that you even don't distinguish the competitions on hard and grass says a whole lot about what you know. Yes they were, and the results also show it. Laughing will not help you with defending your stance.

And WOW at Coria being a rival for Nadal at RG in 2005. They never met there.

Ferrer is not even comparable to Sjoderling in the Majors on clay, and Sjoderling wasn't a clay specialist, despite of having his best results at RG in the Majors.

:cool:
 
#31
On clay?

So he had a player who had all the negatives of the matchup and technology up until 2014 for one main rival, and a guy who was ready to contend with him at RG in 2012 for another on top of both of them having a game more adapted to HC than on clay?

:cool:
This matchup excuse is the most ridiculous that ever existed. Oh, poor goat had bad matchup... Well, if you really are goat do something about it, and he had years to do something... did practically nothing...
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
#33
This matchup excuse is the most ridiculous that ever existed. Oh, poor goat had bad matchup... Well, if you really are goat do something about it, and he had years to do something... did practically nothing...
He did something: check out his matchup with Nadsy pants after the racquet change.

:rolleyes:
 
#34
He did something: check out his matchup with Nadsy pants after the racquet change.

:rolleyes:
No, he didn't, that is myth in my opinion, Fed didn't do much about that rivalry. Nadal just declined more than Fed on hard, and Fed chickened from clay for years. And still Fed needed 5 sets on his second best slam and Nadal's worst slam to beat him, and could lose easily...

Hope they will meet on clay one more time...
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
#35
No, he didn't, that is myth in my opinion, Fed didn't do much about that rivalry. Nadal just declined more than Fed on hard, and Fed chickened from clay for years. And still Fed needed 5 sets on his second best slam and Nadal's worst slam to beat him, and could lose easily...

Hope they will meet on clay one more time...
Your opinion doesn't match with the reality.

:giggle:
 
#38
This matchup excuse is the most ridiculous that ever existed. Oh, poor goat had bad matchup... Well, if you really are goat do something about it, and he had years to do something... did practically nothing...
No it isn't. An exploration of the bio-mechanical interactions at play in a matchup seems perfectly reasonable to me. 'Do something about it' trivializes the disadvantage somewhat, though it does speak to the specialised weaponry that Nadal has and how it can handcuff many players, no matter how great they are.
 
#39
It's just that words as disadvantage or bad matchup are funny to me.

We never hear that Wawrinka, Berdich, Hewitt, RodDick... have/had bad matchup/disadvantage to Federer... We heard only they are his pigeons... Why Federer isnt Nadal's pigeon than... I know forhend to backhand stuff, but if Federer can't manage Nadal's forehand and can't do anything in years, he is just lesser player and you should deal with it.

Berdich is bad mover and bad with low balls. Federer use that and Berdich is his pigeons. Do we say Berdich have disadvantage or bad matchup? No? Why should we do it to Federer/Nadal h2h?
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
#41
It's just that words as disadvantage or bad matchup are funny to me.

We never hear that Wawrinka, Berdich, Hewitt, RodDick... have/had bad matchup/disadvantage to Federer... We heard only they are his pigeons... Why Federer isnt Nadal's pigeon than... I know forhend to backhand stuff, but if Federer can't manage Nadal's forehand and can't do anything in years, he is just lesser player and you should deal with it.

Berdich is bad mover and bad with low balls. Federer use that and Berdich is his pigeons. Do we say Berdich have disadvantage or bad matchup? No? Why should we do it to Federer/Nadal h2h?
LOL, more proof that you don't know what the difference between game deficiency and matchup disadvantage is.

FYI, matchup advantage/disadvantage relates to the situation where one of the strongest parts of a player's game taps into one of the weakest of the other player based on the basic constitution of their games.

Having a great slice is a matter of developing a technique for the shot and is a matter of learning the stroke and practicing it. Having a OHBH/TWBH is a matter of fundamentals of the game engrained from decades of practice, which cannot be remedied at the later stages of their careers.

Berdych is actually a good mover for his height.

:cool:
 
#45
LOL, more proof that you don't know what the difference between game deficiency and matchup disadvantage is.

FYI, matchup advantage/disadvantage relates to the situation where one of the strongest parts of a player's game taps into one of the weakest of the other player based on the basic constitution of their games.

Having a great slice is a matter of developing a technique for the shot and is a matter of learning the stroke and practicing it. Having a OHBH/TWBH is a matter of fundamentals of the game engrained from decades of practice, which cannot be remedied at the later stages of their careers.

Berdych is actually a good mover for his height.

:cool:
Disagree.
Nadal is about equally successful against left and right hand players, if you have some detail stats to show otherwise show it please.
Even if he isn't, you cant compare goat candidate with rest of the field, he is goat after all so he should have better backhand, no?

"taps into one of the weakest of the other player" We are talking about goat, right? The one with weak backhand that cant handle high rotations? Is Fed goat candidate after all?
"Having a great slice is a matter of developing" Having a great forehand as Nadal have is a matter of developing too, so no difference here. Federer opponents cant develop strokes, while Federer can?
"Berdych is actually a good mover for his height" For his height maybe, but overall he is bad mover which is exploited by Fed in every their match, just as Nadal exploit Fed backhand.

So no difference between Fed and Berdych, they are both pigeons of somebody (Fed is certainly lessen pigeon, off course,)...

Fed is often described here as one of the smartest players, the one that know how to exploit other player weakness... and no one say, meeh its just a bad matchup. Double standards...
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
#46
Disagree.
Nadal is about equally successful against left and right hand players, if you have some detail stats to show otherwise show it please.
Even if he isn't, you cant compare goat candidate with rest of the field, he is goat after all so he should have better backhand, no?

"taps into one of the weakest of the other player" We are talking about goat, right? The one with weak backhand that cant handle high rotations? Is Fed goat candidate after all?
"Having a great slice is a matter of developing" Having a great forehand as Nadal have is a matter of developing too, so no difference here. Federer opponents cant develop strokes, while Federer can?
"Berdych is actually a good mover for his height" For his height maybe, but overall he is bad mover which is exploited by Fed in every their match, just as Nadal exploit Fed backhand.

So no difference between Fed and Berdych, they are both pigeons of somebody (Fed is certainly lessen pigeon, off course,)...

Fed is often described here as one of the smartest players, the one that know how to exploit other player weakness... and no one say, meeh its just a bad matchup. Double standards...
LOL, that is not the contention, so you don't follow even your own conversation.

The closest in stature player to Federer, who is right handed, but has a THBH is .... your favourite Djokovic, and he regularly beats Nadal with his BH, not least because it is so stable against Nadal's FH, and because Novac is tall enough to have the ability to simultaneously reach for angled balls and pulverise high ones on that side. It looks like you don't know the game of your favourite either. What a shame for supposedly a great fan.

A 10 years old player will laugh at your "analysis" of what I have written, as you seem to not understand what you are discussing.

Keep them coming!

:D
 
#48
LOL, that is not the contention, so you don't follow even your own conversation.

The closest in stature player to Federer, who is right handed, but has a THBH is .... your favourite Djokovic, and he regularly beats Nadal with his BH, not least because it is so stable against Nadal's FH, and because Novac is tall enough to have the ability to simultaneously reach for angled balls and pulverise high ones on that side. It looks like you don't know the game of your favourite either. What a shame for supposedly a great fan.

A 10 years old player will laugh at your "analysis" of what I have written, as you seem to not understand what you are discussing.

Keep them coming!

:D
Yes, I did miss read your post, admit. You didnt mention left/right hand but OHBH/THBH, sorry.
But, what I tryied to say is same, that Nadal is about equally successful against OHBH/THBH, and if you have some detail stats to show otherwise show it.
Even if he isn't, you cant compare goat candidate with rest of the field, he is goat after all so he should have better backhand, no?

You seem desperate with this "arguments".
Why you claim that Novak is better in h2h with Nadal because of his THBH? I think, and you cant prove otherwise, that his all pack is why he handles Nadal: great backhand no matter one or two handed its great, massive speed and movement, flexibility, tennis intelligence.......... and most important mental strength ;) And, not to forget that he didnt solved Nadal from the begging but he modified his game, changed small tactics things that matter a lot....
Most players are THBH, who deals with Nadal so good? Anyone? Are you still sure THBH is explanation?
Novak is higher than Fed? How much, 3 cm? Are you still sure its explanation? What about Berdich, he is even higher?

But, its easy to say "bad matchup" and Voila all explained :cool:
That was my closure word, wont add anything more
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
#49
Yes, I did miss read your post, admit. You didnt mention left/right hand but OHBH/THBH, sorry.
But, what I tryied to say is same, that Nadal is about equally successful against OHBH/THBH, and if you have some detail stats to show otherwise show it.
Even if he isn't, you cant compare goat candidate with rest of the field, he is goat after all so he should have better backhand, no?

You seem desperate with this "arguments".
Why you claim that Novak is better in h2h with Nadal because of his THBH? I think, and you cant prove otherwise, that his all pack is why he handles Nadal: great backhand no matter one or two handed its great, massive speed and movement, flexibility, tennis intelligence.......... and most important mental strength ;) And, not to forget that he didnt solved Nadal from the begging but he modified his game, changed small tactics things that matter a lot....
Most players are THBH, who deals with Nadal so good? Anyone? Are you still sure THBH is explanation?
Novak is higher than Fed? How much, 3 cm? Are you still sure its explanation? What about Berdich, he is even higher?

But, its easy to say "bad matchup" and Voila all explained :cool:
That was my closure word, wont add anything more
Haha

I already gave you the best example you could wish for. It even fulfilled your requirement to be on a level close to Nadal, so that the comparison can hold water, Jeebus.

I see that you continue with the kindergarten analysis, but you are in the wrong shop. Go learn something about your favourite.

8-B
 
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