One Hand Backhand - Waht Force to Start Forward Swing?

Fxanimator1, What do you think of this description?

When the upper body/chest turn is used to initially accelerate the arm by the chest directly pressing on the upper arm, the pace of the one hand backhand can be higher and the initial acceleration can be higher. Imagine squeezing a credit card between your chest and upper arm. See high speed videos.

Is accelerating a body part by pressing on it with another body part a known biomechanical principle?

When the upper body/chest turn is used to initially accelerate the arm by the chest directly pressing on the upper arm, the pace of the one hand backhand can be higher and the initial acceleration can be higher. Imagine squeezing a credit card between your chest and upper arm. See high speed videos.

Is accelerating a body part by pressing on it with another body part a known biomechanical principle?
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Weight is on front leg during the swing, but to get there, you have to push off with your left butt muscle (if you're rightie), to transfer the weight forwards. You don't use prior momentum, like running forwards into the ball, because timing problems would be prohibitive. Incoming ball varies in speed, spin, direction, depth, and height.
Did I say I could hit a 1hbh topspin? Don't think it did. But I know HOW to hit one, like a good coach can coach a 7.0 level player, but he CAN'T play at that level.
 
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PittsburghDad

Guest
Overthought. Front leg push triggers the drive up and through. No butt muscles needed.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
"Front leg push:".... exactly what do you mean?
I start with a back leg drive, using the butt muscles and the back of the thigh muscles, that helps start the torso rotating forwards towards the ball.
 
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PittsburghDad

Guest
Pushing with that front plant leg up and back. Not falling back really. But that's the leg drive. Just my trial and error opinion. I'm quite certain the things you're describing certainly happen. But the question of what triggers the forward swing, that would be my simple answer.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
If it works for you, then you are correct.
My thinking...if you stand on ONE foot, to hit a topspin backhand, which foot would you stand on? Me, I hit an OK topspin 1hbh with my backfoot planted, pushing off with the butt and back of thigh muscles.
I cannot hit a topspin 1hbh standing on my front foot.
 
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PittsburghDad

Guest
Absolutely. More than one way to skin a backhand. I'm not trying to hit off one leg. Need them both. By the time contact is made most weight is back foot anyway. Because I initiated the swing with an up and back push of my front leg. That's what feels like the trigger to me.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Wait a minute here!
You weight your BACKfoot after hitting a 1hbh topspin shot? Are you sure?
As I hit my 1hbh flat or topspin backhands, my weight is on my FRONT foot, my left, as I'm lefty.
Possibly Vilas leaned back to hit his 1hbh topspin shots, but he's gotta be the ONLY one who does that.
 
P

PittsburghDad

Guest
I couldn't tell you what the percentages are at exact time. But certainly throughout the swing there is a forceful push up and back. Front leg to back. And after contact weight is on back foot. That front leg is the first thing moving for recovery. I specifically do NOT believe in the stay sideways mantra. You step sideways and forward into contact, yes, but immediately after contact that up and back push has the hips opening and front foot moving back into recovery steps.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
Wait a minute here!
You weight your BACKfoot after hitting a 1hbh topspin shot? Are you sure?
As I hit my 1hbh flat or topspin backhands, my weight is on my FRONT foot, my left, as I'm lefty.
Possibly Vilas leaned back to hit his 1hbh topspin shots, but he's gotta be the ONLY one who does that.
Kuerten seemed to alot.

Its a point of contention here as Oscar Wegner advocates falling back on the bh....
 
The upper body turns on high level backhands. Why?

The forces that turn the upper body are important and some interesting posts have been made.

Two ways that the upper body can rotate are from trunk twisting and another is from the legs pushing on the hip joints to turn the pelvis. Or both together? Or other motions?

Another issue is how much variation is being used for top quality one hand backhands. Probably that should only involve, at least at first, non-pressure strokes on easy balls because otherwise players are scrambling and there's chaos. If there is an easy ball, the player can attempt their best backhands. That information for the best backhands has to come from studying videos.

For those interesting hip, leg, trunk twist posts, could the posters point out the motions that they mean in videos or supply a before-and-after picture of what they mean. I often have trouble recognizing and separating these motions in videos, all might be occurring and could be important.

Stan Wawrinka. Click arrows to follow story and see analysis of Wawrinka's backhand.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/08/22/magazine/stan-wawrinka-backhand.html?_r=1

Justine Henin backhand drive.

Gasquet, practice secession.

Identify motions that your mean by the time of the video. Post other videos.

If anyone wants to know how to post pictures let me know.
 
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steve s

Professional
This shot is not in my tool box yet. I think for me, getting the heel of my back foot off the ground and then pressing forward and up with the toe area gets my swing going.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Before any upper body can turn, the lower body has to fire, plant, and push. Otherwise, there is no foundation for an upper body turn.
 

geca

Semi-Pro
there is only 1 key in every tennis shot. including the 1hbh. - how do you keep the racket face at the same angle through the shot.

when you watch all these videos, pay attention to 1 thing - what is the hand doing.

if you understand this.. the rest of the body will know what to do.
 

geca

Semi-Pro
the correct answer is internal shoulder rotation followed by external shoulder rotation. shadow this with an eastern grip you will see the face angle stay the same beautifully. your brain will know this and will give the go-ahead to your entire body to unleash power and rip the shot.

The 1hbh may look like throwing a frizbee or drawing a sword... in reality it is definitely not lol.
 
P

PittsburghDad

Guest
How anybody could ever say "the one key" when it comes to any stroke is beyond me. Unless the next two words are "is practice".
 

geca

Semi-Pro
lol it is beyond you because it IS beyond you right now... once you understand it you will likely agree.
 
Fxanimator1, What do you think of this description?

When the upper body/chest turn is used to initially accelerate the arm by the chest directly pressing on the upper arm, the pace of the one hand backhand can be higher and the initial acceleration can be higher. Imagine squeezing a credit card between your chest and upper arm. See high speed videos.

Is accelerating a body part by pressing on it with another body part a known biomechanical principle?
Watch the chest press on the upper arm.

To do stop action single frame
1) click "Vimeo" on the video to go to the Vimeo website.
2) hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS

Point with backhand topspin drives and one slice (at 1:20). Different camera viewpoint.

See also the backhand drives of Stan Wawrinka and Justine Henin.
 
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Do you think that higher level tennis requires starting at such a young age now that learning the two hand backhand has taken over because young children don't have the strength to learn the one hand backhand?
 
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PittsburghDad

Guest
If kids have the strength to hit a OHFH, they have the strength to hit a OHBH.

But we've definitely heard that argument from a lot of "coaches". I don't really get it.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
Your body is not as strong at external shoulder rotation or on the backside as it is in the front. Most people can bench more then they can row for example - especially untrained men. So the strength argument isn't totally ridiculous. However pros shouldn't be teaching kids 1HBH to kids anyway..
 
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PittsburghDad

Guest
Bench vs rows isn't the same. But you can backhand somebody every bit as hard as slap them. That's more similar.

But I sort of agree that pros shouldn't really be teaching it. The upper end of a OHBH is a vicious weapon. An average OHBH is rubbish. The upper end of a DoubleBH is a vicious weapon. An average DoubleBH is very serviceable. The growth and maintenance of a OHBH in young kids takes almost daily attention. Everything from confidence to timing. It's not likely in most settings. And the DoubleBH is a much safer bet. My 8 yr old has a fantastic OHBH. She has a two month old sister. Little sis will almost definitely have two hands on that racket.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
I don't agree with the philosophy of post 75.
How many BEGINNER's have you taught? I"ve taught maybe 30+.
Most beginners can hit serviceable short feed forehands. Only a supreme athlete or strong guy can hit 1hbh off a short feed on their first day.
1hbh is taken farther away from the body than normal forehands, and the backhand motion is not practiced doing any other thing in life besides throwing frisbee's.
The forehand swing is practiced thru grabbing anything, thru throwing anything sidearm, and thru gathering anything, so the pec's are already somewhat developed, while the lat's aren't.
 
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PittsburghDad

Guest
Rubbish. In so many ways. 1) If anything the OHBH is taken back closer to the body. 2) Ask anybody who has spent a single minute in a weight room if the back or chest starts out stronger. 3) The entire "I've coached 30 or 3000 is worthless. It's the individual Coach. If I've learned one thing in my journey so far it is that the vast majority are worthless. Often more experience just seems to solidly false preconceived notions built on nothing.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
You obviously don't hit with a topspin 1hbh, nor have you taught tennis with beginners using 1hbh.
Very few, probably less than 10% of beginners, can come close to hitting 1hbh topspin or flat backhands.
About half can hit flat forehands off short feeds, as much as 10 in a row if not hit hard.
While Gasquet, Fed, Nico, and Stan can hit nice 1hbh shots, there's a reason that of the top 1,000 ATP, less than 80 hit 1hbh's.
YOU, of course, still don't know the reason. Yes, we know kids are taught 2hbh from early ages, but WHY? Because it's easier for weaker beginners to hit successfully, THAT'S why.
Meaning, 1hbh is HARDER to hit, if you're new to tennis. Now, WHY? Because spacing is hard to achieve, since human's don't throw backhand in their early development, but they DO reach out and grab inwards, with elbow's bent, using pecs, like HUGGING.
But you wouldn't know, would you?
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
As for more wouldn't know anything, I do tend to agree with you. But.....
If everyone drank water, would you drink the water?
If everyone avoided the water presented, would you drink the water?
If thousands of coach's thru 30 years decided to teach little kids the 2hbh, you must be correct, because YOU are the only one deciding to teach 1hbh to little kids.
 
P

PittsburghDad

Guest
It's better to discuss if you don't make assumptions. Again, you are coming at it with your own preconceived notions. I NEVER said it was better to teach kids OHBH. Stop strawmanning please. My first daughter hits an incredible OHBH. Has since 6. With a full size racket. Her infant sister I'm sure will hit two. I have heard enough "coaches" and racket reps for that matter, (she's sponsored,) saying kids her age shouldn't hit OHBH because of "weight.". And it's rubbish. It is a MUCH harder stroke and it's certainly not for everybody. But it's not "weight or strength.". Sorry if I sound annoyed, but long ago, I'd had my fill of coaches spouting "facts" and then tossing experience in my face. And they were dead wrong. And they made up stuff to support whatever thought process they all ready had as opposed to getting stuck in and reading a situation.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Well, your two examples certainly trumps my 30, and the other coach's hundreds of thousands.
Ever hear of the concept of ALLOWING them to choose for themselves, but presenting both solutions for their choice?
 
P

PittsburghDad

Guest
What is the argument? I never said the OHBH is better for kids. Pretty sure everything I said was about letting kids choose. It's what I believe. I just pointed out when you blatantly made up "facts". Why are you so intent on arguing? Have fun bro, all good.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Do you ever read YOUR own posts?
YOU are doing the arguing, I'm doing the defending of thousands of coach's.
 
P

PittsburghDad

Guest
Sure thing. You're a defender. God Speed. It ain't that heavy. Honestly, I've spent plenty of time on you. Cheers.
 
.................................. My 8 yr old has a fantastic OHBH. ................
How much upper body turn does your 8 year old daughter use?

When does her upper arm separate from her chest during her stroke?

See post #73 for upper body turn and upper arm-chest separation.
 
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PittsburghDad

Guest
However much she needs. Not being rude. But that's the true answer. As much as she needs to hit it it harder and with more accuracy every single day. (Barring a bad practice or twoI) It's a stroke that has left big name academy coaches and coaches with WTA players incredulous. She gets a full unit turn, sets up and unloads with more pace and topspin than should be possible from her frame. I don't get all that technical with it. It can hurt it. And is unneccessary when actually working on a stroke with a kid. It's feel and controlled aggression and footwork. Not angles of separation or ISR or whatever the tip du jour is. The technical stuff matters, but not nearly as much as some people think. (And not nearly as much as I used to think.).
 
However much she needs. Not being rude. But that's the true answer. As much as she needs to hit it it harder and with more accuracy every single day. (Barring a bad practice or twoI) It's a stroke that has left big name academy coaches and coaches with WTA players incredulous. She gets a full unit turn, sets up and unloads with more pace and topspin than should be possible from her frame. I don't get all that technical with it. It can hurt it. And is unneccessary when actually working on a stroke with a kid. It's feel and controlled aggression and footwork. Not angles of separation or ISR or whatever the tip du jour is. The technical stuff matters, but not nearly as much as some people think. (And not nearly as much as I used to think.).
Have you observed?

"When does her upper arm separate from her chest during her stroke?"

 
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P

PittsburghDad

Guest
Are you talking about external upper arm chestal separation or inner? Big difference. I guess the only other variable is whether it is a frontal racket striking position or differential crosswise deflection. For a DTL obviously. Good stuff.
 
I am talking about the time of the backhand drive that the upper arm might be pressed by the chest so that considerable force on the upper arm is produced. The picture in Post #90 shows contact late in this phase of the motion, probably just before the upper arm separates from the chest and moves forward.
 
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PittsburghDad

Guest
I literally have no idea. I don't want to. We have different approaches. Her workouts have been observed by top coaches and I paid for a very good sports orthopedic to watch her and give a once over. She's a healthy kid with a great swing. No concerns. But always aware and conscious. The entire thrust of this conversation is not my style. Don't take that the wrong way. Just a different focus.
 
You are most interested in your daughter's tennis and not in new views of how strokes might work.

My approach is to understand all I can about whatever builds racket head speed leading to impact. The information that is available from high speed videos is especially important. But videos do not directly show forces, those have to be considered with some uncertainty.

I use the stroke techniques of the better ATP players as examples of the current top level techniques. Gasquet has a superior one hand backhand drive. One interesting detail is how the chest and upper arm might press together. ?

Some basic biomechanics and kinesiology is very helpful for understanding. I try to clearly describe strokes using terms that are defined and can be searched.
 
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PittsburghDad

Guest
Again with the assumptions. I have a clear understanding of basic biomechanics and kinetic chain. But certainly always learning. In the right places. I am massively in debt going back four years on this forum to some of the posters. I have spent hundreds of hours obsessing over the articles of John Yandell, Ian, Will, Oscar, CoachingMastery and a few others. I get it. But not every thing around here is equal. And once you have a basic idea of kinetic chain and pronation etc, you go out and DO it. Please don't assume that because I don't want to answer your circular but sort of pointless questions it's because of ignorance on the subject. In fact it's the opposite. I know enough about it, (in this instance, certainly not all), to know when I don't need to explain myself to you. I don't need the help broham. Not on this subject. I only got into this conversation because a poster was spouting completely made up and erroneous facts. Be cool.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
You are most interested in your daughter's tennis and not in new views of how strokes might work.

My approach is to understand all I can about whatever builds racket head speed leading to impact. The information that is available from high speed videos is especially important. But videos do not directly show forces, those have to be considered with some uncertainty.

I use the stroke techniques of the better ATP players as examples of the current top level techniques. Gasquet has a superior one hand backhand drive. One interesting detail is how the chest and upper arm might press together. ?

Some basic biomechanics and kinesiology is very helpful for understanding. I try to clearly describe strokes using terms that are defined and can be searched.
Imho that chest arm pressing together is what you rarely see on rec players but its crucial to the one hander.

Ok you may see it but there isnt nearly the tension you see in gasquet and other pros
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
More than ONE way to hit a 1hbh topspin shot?
Some player's drive onto the front foot.
Other player's drove up and back with the front foot.
 
Replies #73 and #90 show an example of a top quality one hand backhand by Gasquet. In my opinion, Stan Wawrinka and Justine Henin appear to have similar initial accelerations for heavy paced backhand drives as shown in the Gasquet example. The upper body turns with the upper arm pressed to the chest.

What about one hand backhand drives where the upper arm separates from the chest for initial acceleration?

Feliciano Lopez is very athletic, a very strong server and comes to the net often. He uses backhand slices for the majority of his backhands, perhaps 80-90% of his backhands are slices and only 10-20% are backhand drives.

Video of Lopez's one hand backhand drive.

The frame shown in the video thumbnail above has separation of the upper arm from the chest while not much upper body turn has occurred.

To examine single frame 1) click "Vimeo", 2) Hold down SHIFT KEY & use ARROW KEYS.

An internet search for Lopez and backhand drives indicates past criticism of its effectiveness.

The backhand slice of Lopez, that he predominately prefers over the drive, has little upper body turn. It has early upper arm-chest separation as with most backhand slice techniques. Did that excellent slice technique partially transfer into his backhand drive. ?

In order to see this issue in high speed video requires small enough motion blur to be able to observe when the upper arm separation occurs. (killer application of high speed video for the one hand backhand technique). Videos from overhead also may be especially informative if they show the upper arm and upper body moving together.
 
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Regarding the racket drop motion before the start of the forward swing on the backhand drive - It looks as if the racket, hand and arm are mainly being rotated down by the back arm -

See racket high point in take back and drop before the forward swing. Backhand starts around second 56, racket drop 1:07.

Gasquet, see similar racket drop on several drives.
To examine single frame 1) click "Vimeo", 2) Hold down SHIFT KEY & use ARROW KEYS.

Lopez, see similar racket drop. Starts at second 7. But Lopez's stroke is different on the forward motion. See post #98.

I don't know the function of the racket drop motion of the one hand backhand drive. Is it to position the racket for the incoming ball height? Or, to rotate hand to cause internal shoulder rotation and/or pronation and prestretch ESR and supination muscles. Both functions? Other?

In a Tennis Chanel Academy show, Justine Henin demos this racket drop slowly. I would say that her slow demo does not portray the racket drop very accurately in comparison to the high speed video. Also, she demos ESR and/or supination after impact perhaps indicating pre-stretching was used. ?

What does the racket drop do?
 
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JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
It's the same basic principle as the forehand. By rotating the arm backward (and therefore the racket tip down) the player sets up increased arm rotation in the forward swing.
In this case the first rotation is internal and the second external. In extreme form this the Gaudio wiper backhand. But the rotation is there to some extent in every good backhand.
 
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