One Hand Backhand - Waht Force to Start Forward Swing?

[JohnYandell]

On the one-handed versus two-handed. Robert Lansdorp ended the discussion when he said I always ask the kid which one he wants to hit. He taught Pete the one-hander even though his personal opinion was that he had a great two-hander.
I've written before that watching a lot of ex college players play NTRP in their 30s and 40s, their two handers don't look too good anymore and they look like natural one handers. Let's assume you can up your ranking 20 spots with a two-hander in the juniors. Is that really the dominant goal--even if it were true? To the parents YES! nd the coaches cow tow and sometimes get very aggressive about the two handers sublime complete dominance. How would we know when of the hundred kids I filmed at the Easter Bowl last year there were two onehanders. And someone will say yes! That's the point. And then you have the Japanese American girl of modest stature who won the 18s the year before with a gorgeous one-hander. If no one is hitting the one the two hander is defacto dominant. But if half the top players had developed a one...well...think you'd see a different story? But Bobby needs to be a winner in the 12s... Uh, sport for a lifetime?

 

[Chas Tennis]

His upper arm could well be pressed to his chest when he first accelerates forward, as discussed.

The Youtube includes the information that Feliciano is using a small racket and lighter ball. It also says that he plays tennis using a 2 handed backhand.

This is not a recommendation - A lot has to be considered before children attempt tennis strokes.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Update -

I have believed that the top backhands of Gasquet, Wawrinka and Justine Henin have the upper arm pressed to the chest for initial acceleration.

In about 2014, I noticed this biomechanics and described it in detail in a thread. The biomechanics for pace becomes a two phase acceleration initially the upper body turns and presses on the upper arm for acceleration. At some point the upper arm will separate from the chest. This is associated with the top one hand backhands of Wawrinka, Gasquet and Justine Henin.

Feliciano Lopez did not do this and was known for a weaker backhand drive. He seems to be hitting better drives now.

I could not tell how often Federer did it or compare the quality of the upper arm to chest pressing. I did notice Federer's backhand looks overall better in 2016 & now. In one 2017 Australian Open backhand winner slow motion I could see that Federer did not appear to do this pressing.

I call the upper arm to cheat pressing a "credit card backhand" because you would squeeze a credit card hard if it were between the upper arm and chest. You have to look carefully at the space line separating the upper arm and chest. That takes a high speed video with small motion blur and then you are not sure of the last millimeter.

The line between the upper arm and chest will not be visible in 3D motion capture systems but the upper arm and shoulder girdle should move locked together for the initial part of the acceleration.

Copy with edits and addition

I have believed that the top backhands of Gasquet, Wawrinka and Justine Henin have the upper arm pressed to the chest for initial acceleration.

In about 2014, I noticed this biomechanics and described it in detail in a thread. The biomechanics for pace becomes a two phase acceleration, initially the upper body turns and presses on the upper arm for acceleration. At some point the upper arm will separate from the chest. This is associated with the top one hand backhands of Wawrinka, Gasquet and Justine Henin.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...and-waht-force-to-start-forward-swing.462997/

Feliciano Lopez did not do this and was known for a weaker backhand drive. He seems to be hitting better drives now. ?

I could not tell how often Federer did it or compare the quality of the upper arm to chest pressing. I did notice Federer's backhand looks overall better in 2016 & now. In one 2017 Australian Open backhand winner shown in slow motion, I could see that Federer did not appear to do this pressing but the camera view was not good.

I call the upper arm to chest pressing a "credit card backhand" because you would squeeze a credit card hard if it were between the upper arm and chest. You have to look carefully at the line separating the upper arm and chest. That takes a high speed video with small motion blur and then you are not sure of the last millimeter.

The line between the upper arm and chest will not be visible in 3D motion capture systems but the upper arm and shoulder girdle should move locked together for the initial part of the acceleration.

I believe that this is from a 3D motion capture system. Federer backhand 2013 or earlier.

The second frame shows the upper arm separating from the chest. I would expect the backhands of Gasquet and Wawrinka to show the upper arm pressed to the chest longer so that the shoulder girdle and upper arm would move locked together for a longer time.

This technique can increase pace that may add stress to the arm and elbow at impact.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Regarding the racket drop motion before the start of the forward swing on the backhand drive - It looks as if the racket, hand and arm are mainly being rotated down by the back arm -

See racket high point in take back and drop before the forward swing. Backhand starts around second 56, racket drop 1:07.

Gasquet, see similar racket drop on several drives.
To examine single frame 1) click "Vimeo", 2) Hold down SHIFT KEY & use ARROW KEYS.

Lopez, see similar racket drop. Starts at second 7. But Lopez's stroke is different on the forward motion. See post #98.

I don't know the function of the racket drop motion of the one hand backhand drive. Is it to position the racket for the incoming ball height? Or, to rotate hand to cause internal shoulder rotation and/or pronation and prestretch ESR and supination muscles. Both functions? Other?

In a Tennis Chanel Academy show, Justine Henin demos this racket drop slowly. I would say that her slow demo does not portray the racket drop very accurately in comparison to the high speed video. Also, she demos ESR and/or supination after impact perhaps indicating pre-stretching was used. ?

What does the racket drop do?

See 2017 thread with some posts with more details of the racket drop and ISR and ESR. (geca mentioned ISR and ESR here above in post #69.)
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...does-using-the-left-hand-on-ohbh-make.582456/

 

[Chas Tennis]

Raul_SJ

Experiment for healthy shoulder -

Tie a rope to a fixed object. Take a luggage scale in your hand. Position so that your arm is straight and about across your chest resembling the positions in a backhand takeback ready to go forward. Don't stress your shoulder joint - with a moderate slow effort isolate your shoulder joint muscles and measure the pull force on the scale.

Luggage scale.

When I did this experiment I measured about 28 lbs when using the shoulder joint muscles.

When I used the trunk, legs and other available muscles with the upper arm pressed on the chest and no shoulder joint muscles, I measured about 52 lbs.

Try it.

 

[Chas Tennis]

This post from another thread shows a comparison and analysis of poster Mojo28's one hand backhand drive and Gasquet's from the start of the forward racket motion. Note the chest and upper arm of the high level backhand.

[ Note for new readers - It is necessary for this analysis to understand the defined joint motions of internal shoulder rotation (ISR) and external shoulder rotation (ESR). The upper arm between the shoulder joint and elbow does not go anywhere, it just spins like a top around the upper arm's center line.]

Pictures of each frame of Mojo's video. The time scales are in milliseconds with "0" milliseconds being impact. -267 milliseconds is about 1/4 second before impact.

I point out differences between better high level strokes and the poster's strokes. A poster can select a high level stroke and copy it or use some other stroke model. Or, go with instruction or on their own without a model or instruction.

Mojo's ball is lower than Gasquet's. Compare similar ball heights for better analysis.

Frame at -267 ms. It looks as if at 267 milliseconds before impact the OP has turned his shoulders back to about the same angle as Gasquet has. Compare also shoulder turn angles at impact, at Frame -0 ms. The positions of the arms and rackets are different. Gasquet's racket has not come down and is still in front of his body. Is Mojo copying some other backhand stroke? Mojo has also done pronation to bring the racket down. Impression is that Mojo is doing his own thing. ? (To see angles more accurately, the cameras for both backhands need to view the players and courts from the same angle. Wear tight fitting clothes or a short sleeve shirt to better see the upper arm, elbow angle, etc.)

Frame at -233 ms. Mojo has brought his racket farther down. Gasquet's racket has gone up slightly. Mojo's elbow looks bent more and his upper arm (between the shoulder and elbow) has more downward rotation (ISR). Compare ISR angle to ISR angle as these frames progress.

Frame at -200 ms. Mojo's racket is still lowering and low. Gasquet's is just starting to lower.

Frame at -167 ms. Mojo's upper arm is down from the shoulder joint. Gasquet's upper arm is more across the chest.

Frame at -133 ms. Mojo's racket still lowering. Gasquet's now lowering with more rapid drop.

Frame at -100 ms. Mojo's upper arm is down at the chest. Gasquet's upper arm is more across the chest. Gasquet now appears to have started more upper body turn. I believe that to produce this early arm and racket acceleration that Gasquet is pressing hard on his upper arm with his chest powered by the forces of turning his upper body. If a credit card were between his chest and upper arm, would it be pressed tightly? How much upper arm pressing Mojo is doing this is not clear (due to the obscuring shirt and arm angle). But his upper body does not appear to be turning as rapidly.

Frame at -67 ms. The racket head speed developed by any rotation depends on the location of the axis of rotation and the distance out from that rotation axis. Look at the arm and racket angle and the distance out from the location of the rotation axis (guessed for now). It looks as if Mojo's arm angle is not favorable for racket head speed. Also, Mojo's racket is already much more rotated toward the ball trajectory. Gasquet's racket is >180° back from the ball's trajectory. Gasquet's upper arm is pressed to his chest as discussed.

Frame at -33 ms. Look at the racket to ball trajectory angle for Mojo, 45°? Look at the racket to trajectory angle for Gasquet still >180°. The total turns of Mojo's and Gasquet's upper bodies from Frame -267 ms seem somewhat similar, similar average speeds. The upper arm and racket have been used differently. Another motion - now look at the elbow bones and estimate the angular position of internal shoulder rotation, or axial rotation of the upper arm in the shoulder joint. Compare ESR from -33 ms to -0 ms.

Frame at -0 ms closest to impact. The big differences from Frame -33 ms to Frame -0 ms are the angular movement of Gasquet's racket and the much larger movement of his hand in the forward direction in comparison to Mojo. Also, Mojo's racket is open and Gasquet's is closed at impact. Possibly the ball height was a factor in how closed the racket was.? Now look at Gasquet's elbow bones and compare them to Frame -33 ms. Gasquet has done rapid external shoulder rotation (ESR) from Frame -33 ms to Frame -0 ms. That has moved the racket up and added to the topspin that the upward hand path already would have produce without ESR. Because Gasquet brought down his racket earlier with a near straight arm, it caused rapid ISR and pre-stretched his ESR muscles, he is using those stretched muscles in this frame. (Search the Stretch Shorten Cycle).

Frame at +33ms after impact. Mojo's hand and racket go more forward. Gasquet's goes more forward and up. ESR has continued.

Frame at +67 ms. Comparison of the follow throughs.

Video.

Last edited: Mar 5, 2017"

 

[Chas Tennis]

This instruction deals with the same issue - as a fix. Kevin Garlington places his hand between his chest and upper arm to demo.

See times 1st 1:47 & 2nd 2:32 and later.

 

[Chas Tennis]

This backhand was from poster Quackadily Blip.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/feedback-on-video.579741/

It is not easy to clearly see that the chest is pressed on the upper arm. Another way to observe that the chest is probably pressing to the upper arm is to see if the upper arm and upper body or shoulders move together. They would if the chest were pushing the upper arm. This video shows the upper arm is probably not pressed to the chest.

A research 3D motion capture system could probably show how well the upper arm is pressed to the chest and when it separates and moves off the chest. I doubt that such 3D systems can resolve as well close up as high speed video cameras. See post #73.

 

[Chas Tennis]

1) I believe that most average players do not press the upper arm with their chests for one hand backhand acceleration. I don't think that there are any stats.

2) Probably few children, learning a one hand backhand, press the upper arm with the chest. ? See post #102.

3) For pro players trying to hit strong BH drives, not all do it. Gasquet and Wawrinka do it on strong drives but maybe not on slower shots. ? I can't estimate the percentages.

 

[racket king]

It is not easy to clearly see that the chest is pressed on the upper arm. Another way to observe that the chest is probably pressing to the upper arm is to see if the upper arm and upper body or shoulders move together. They would if the chest were pushing the upper arm. This video shows the upper arm is probably not pressed to the chest.

A research 3D motion capture system could probably show how well the upper arm is pressed to the chest and when it separates and moves off the chest. I doubt that such 3D systems can resolve as well close up high speed video cameras. See post #73.

1) I believe that most average players do not press the upper arm with their chests for one hand backhand acceleration. I don't think that there are any stats.

2) Probably few children, learning a one hand backhand, press the upper arm with the chest. ? See post #102.

3) For pro players trying to hit strong BH drives, not all do it. Gasquet and Wawrinka do it on strong drives but maybe not on slower shots. ? I can't estimate the percentages.

The key element here is the shoulder turn and the racket behind the body, not the fact that the upper arm is pressed against the chest. You could be facing square on to the ball and still have your upper arm pressed against your chest. Doesn't mean that it's correct or an instruction that you would give to a student.

 

[Chas Tennis]

We disagree. I have presented high speed videos to support my view. Find some 'shoulder turn' techniques, that don't show direct contact between the upper arm and chest, and we can compare stroke performances.

A. As best I can interpret high speed videos, for their heavy pace drives, Wawrinka, Gasquet and Henin appear to accelerate the upper arm by pressing on it with their chests.

B. Other techniques that involve using the weaker shoulder muscles for initial acceleration are not as high performance in my opinion. The shoulder could be turning also - but lacking the chest transferring force to the upper arm by direct contact. Feliciano Lopez in past years is an example of this technique.

I believe the higher performance backhands are "A" technique as far as high speed videos can show. Pressing the upper arm with the chest as described uses different biomechanics than using the shoulder muscles for initial acceleration.

 

[racket king]

We disagree. I have presented high speed videos to support my view. Find some 'shoulder turn' techniques, that don't show direct contact between the upper arm and chest, and we can compare stroke performances.

A. As best I can interpret high speed videos, for their heavy pace drives, Wawrinka, Gasquet and Henin appear to accelerate the upper arm by pressing on it with their chests.

B. Other techniques that involve using the weaker shoulder muscles for initial acceleration are not as high performance in my opinion. The shoulder could be turning also - but lacking the chest transferring force to the upper arm by direct contact. Feliciano Lopez in past years is an example of this technique.

I believe the higher performance backhands are "A" technique as far as high speed videos can show. Pressing the upper arm with the chest as described uses different biomechanics than using the shoulder muscles for initial acceleration.

You're over analysing everything, and not distinguishing between what's key and what isn't.

 

[Dragy]

It's not weak shoulder muscles. It's shoulder joint and pulling the arm by body rotation. Your frames of gasquet show his arm going down through the initial body rotation. Any hard contact ("press") between upper arm and chest would inhibit that arm drop. Moreover, you can experiment with pressing your arm accross the chest and looking into mirror. If you have decent flexibility you'll get past the angle gasquet has on his backhands, closer to parallel with shoulder line. The angle pro players have indicates there's no "press", but pull.

Add: well, excuse me my tone. There's definitely some contact between the very top of upper arm and the side part of chest. In the meantime, it's far from the max possible press, which makes emphasizing this contact between upper arm and chest as key element improper. The key thing is accelerating arm via body rotation.

 

[Chas Tennis]

................................

............There's definitely some contact between the very top of upper arm and the side part of chest. In the meantime, it's far from the max possible press, .................

"There's definitely some contact between the very top of upper arm and the side part of chest..." Try to forget that thought.....

How do you know "it's far from the max possible press," ?

How do you know that the "max possible press" plays any part in backhand performance?

I measured the static forces at the hand, with a luggage scale, that the shoulder muscles can produce and the forces that the body can transmit through the chest to upper arm contact area . You can do the same. This does not prove anything about the backhand stroke itself, yet, it just shows us the forces that are at the hand.............

When I did this experiment I measured about 28 lbs when using the shoulder joint muscles.

When I used the trunk, legs and other available muscles with the upper arm pressed on the chest and no shoulder joint muscles, I measured about 52 lbs.

Try it.

Wawrinka, Gasquet and Henin were compared to F. Lopez in posts earlier. Have you looked at those videos? What do you see regarding this issue?

 

[Chas Tennis]

Dragy, you have a strong backhand. Try not using your shoulder muscles at the beginning of the forward motion and let the chest press on the upper arm.

Careful with the impact part of your stroke mechanics as this can increase pace and stress.

 

[GuyClinch]

What's the advantage of the press? Won't your arm rotate with your body without the press?

 

[SinjinCooper]

There's definitely some contact between the very top of upper arm and the side part of chest.

Quite a mystery, that. It's almost like that's where the arm connects to the body.

I respect the search for truth, but this chest press business is a wild goose chase. It has literally nothing to do with how high-level backhands are hit.

 

[Chas Tennis]

........... It's almost like that's where the arm connects to the body.
.............................................

My chest on upper arm contact area extends about 3" away from where my arm connects to the body. Kevin Garlington placed his hand in that area to demonstrate the squeeze. See post #107.

What do you think of Kevin Garlington's video?

 

[Dragy]

How do you know "it's far from the max possible press," ?

I gave you 2 arguments covering why it's not what's happening. It's enough to bust a theory. Arm position is noticeably away from physically possible "power press" - anyone can test it. Free movement of upper arm along the chest signals there's no hard press. It's all from your pro players' videos and stills.

My opinion is you for some reason dismissed a more simple basic item, which is starting the swing with body uncoil with arm and racquet placed back there. That's why they go past 45deg closed stance - to ensure the front shoulder rotates forward pulling the arm in the required direcrion. You are calling right things - initiate forward acceleration through body rotation and not using shoulder muscles actively at the first stage. But then you dive deeper and speculate with a, at best, marginal theory. The dive itself is impractical, but your "press" conclusion comes ignoring the fact that there's a shoulder joint which provides all the required link for acceleration transfer from body rotation into the arm.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I gave you 2 arguments covering why it's not what's happening. It's enough to bust a theory. Arm position is noticeably away from physically possible "power press" - anyone can test it. Free movement of upper arm along the chest signals there's no hard press. It's all from your pro players' videos and stills.

My opinion is you for some reason dismissed a more simple basic item, which is starting the swing with body uncoil with arm and racquet placed back there. That's why they go past 45deg closed stance - to ensure the front shoulder rotates forward pulling the arm in the required direcrion. You are calling right things - initiate forward acceleration through body rotation and not using shoulder muscles actively at the first stage. But then you dive deeper and speculate with a, at best, marginal theory. The dive itself is impractical, but your "press" conclusion comes ignoring the fact that there's a shoulder joint which provides all the required link for acceleration transfer from body rotation into the arm.

You assume that if there were pressing that the upper arm would not be able to orient downward on the chest as is seen. Do you mean that the friction between the upper arm and chest would prevent that movement? That is a reasonable argument, good point.

 

[Dragy]

Do you mean that the friction between the upper arm and chest would prevent that movement?

Yes, that was the idea. If there was some "press" heavy enough to be dominant component.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I have been watching Federer and his backhand that has been so effective in his 2017 comeback (after his knee injury time out in 2016). I don't believe that he uses the chest press on the upper arm technique ('credit card') identified in this thread. He still may use it, but many of his backhands show the upper arm separating from the chest early.

 

[Limpinhitter]

In my view, initiation of the forward swing on all ground strokes should ideally start with hip rotation.

 

[LeeD]

In my view, initiation of the forward swing on all ground strokes should ideally start with hip rotation.

Before the hip can rotate, the back leg has to fire the glutes.

 

[Limpinhitter]

Deleted.

 

[Pete Player]

Gasquet has way less shoulder turn on back swing and therefore he initially drops the racket from bent elbow "trophy" position compared to Waw and sometimes Fed.

It's a matter of time, you have to initiate the stroke, wether you can accelerate thru leg drive or just dropping the racket.

Once either of them done it's shoulders and hips, but you need a post from your front foot to get the pivot going.

The final and biggest thing, I think, generating high speed into the arm and further on the racket head is the arm release away from your chest followed by supination along with ESR into the follow thru.

It's virtually the same action as in throwing a frisbee.

A controlled, yet not very fast 1hbh can be generated by stretching both arms away from your body with vertical footwork dropping the hands down and bending your knees and then, before hands ar at the low point "jump" up and direct the hand swings sideways.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Chas Tennis]

Post from another thread on video observations.

read post #51 to end.

Consider viewing from above as the line between the two shoulder turns. If the chest is pressed to the upper arm it will move with the line between the shoulders. The upper arm may lower while in contact with the chest and be angled down. The shoulder muscles that would separate the upper arm are relaxed for the first part of the forward swing.

Imagine that you were squeezing a credit card between your upper arm and chest during acceleration it would be squeezed hard. For Federer the credit card would drop out. For Wawrinka, Gasquet and Justine Henin the credit card would be squeezed. See the videos.

 

[Dou]

One Hand Backhand - What Force to Start Forward Swing?

I have just been watching great one-hand backhands at the Madrid Open. Including excellent slow motion that can be replayed in even slower motion or single frame with my DVR.

Often when I try to swing forward for a one hand backhand the stroke is very weak in the initial acceleration, especially if I'm rushed. The ball contact is extremely late on heavy pace and often the ball goes off at an angle and into the ground.

On very rare occasions in the past, when I was hitting better pace 1HBHs, if I had a set up on the backhand side and ran forward for the ball I could hit a monster TP backhand with confidence. Not for some years now....... So I know that heavy pace backhands are possible. I am wondering where that stroke came from. ?

This question deals with only that time when the one hand backhand backswing is just completed and the the racket is starting to accelerate.

Biomechanical issues -

1) Shoulders orientation, back at about 45°(?) to the baseline, etc., and also the angle of the arm to the shoulder to start the forward swing- the upper arm is out from the body. Why are these angles used and their purpose in accelerating the upper arm?

2) Why does the racket go back to well above the head? Why is the first part of the stroke downward?

3) Does the lat work on the upper arm. How? Is that why the upper arm is always raised out from the body in high level backhands - so that it can shorten and move the upper arm?

4) Effect of body turning to initially propel the shoulder & arm forward. ?

5) Which muscles contribute to downward & forward arm & racket motion? Which contribute to racket head speed and in what degree: lat, rear delt, others? The racket and arm seem to accelerate strongly downward at first picking up speed and then swing to a more forward direction for impact.

6) How is the stretch-shortening cycle at work in the 1hbh? Especially for the initial upper arm motion.


For illustrations, see the one hand backhands at end of the take back and ready for the forward swing.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ill...8EJj54APhh4CgBQ&ved=0CEsQsAQ&biw=1334&bih=702

Some especially good illustrations of just before the forward swing are on tennis.about.com , strokes #5,6,7.
http://tennis.about.com/od/playersm...e-pro-one-handed-topspin-backhand-grips_6.htm

Slow motion videos on the 1HBH including frames showing the start of the one hand backhand. Racket high, player looking over shoulder, shoulders turned past perpendicular to the baseline, second hand still on racket - the initial position. What are the details of how the racket accelerates from there?

Roger Federer and Justine Henin Topspin backhands

Roger Federer backhands shot with slow motion

Roger Federer's topspin backhand 360 degree breakdown 2.0

Federer Wawrinka and more Top spin BH part I: The preparation

Federer, Wawrinka and more top spin BH part II: The Stroke phase

Richard Gasquet - Slow Motion Top Spin Backhands in HD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuBRallEByc

So many questions

Actually the answers are very simple - if you can hit one correctly - relaxed wrist, ISR loading, ESR releasing.... then the high take back, the body turn, the finish... all that will make sense... and nothing that you have to think about. The body will naturally do all that if your intent is ISR/ESR.

 

[Wise one]

^^^^I don't like Federer backhand, He uses way too much arm. Power and acceleration comes from your Hip rotation. Hip and Core strength is a must for powerful shot.
Stan Warinka is the Best example to emulate. Classic for Amateurs to learn from.

I don't like it either. Very inefficient, Continental grip makes the shot weaker than it should be.

 

[Nostradamus]

I don't like it either. Very inefficient, Continental grip makes the shot weaker than it should be.

Exactly, Eastern backhand grip is a must for Topspin 1-hander. that's a serious eastern backhand grip.

 

[Shroud]

Exactly, Eastern backhand grip is a must for Topspin 1-hander. that's a serious eastern backhand grip.

Sw is even stronger

 

[Raul_SJ]

This instruction deals with the same issue - as a fix. Kevin Garlington places his hand between his chest and upper arm to demo.

See times 1st 1:47 & 2nd 2:32 and later.

Kevin is a very good player and he says the chest press is crucial. That is good enough for me. Not concerned if some pros do not do it all the time.

My main takeaway is that chest press helps prevent arming and not engaging the core muscles. Best for rec players to follow this tip.

 

[Mahboob Khan]

Good information here on one-handed backhand stroke.

I think the basic question is: At which point the racket start accelerating?

Test. Throw a ball up to the sky. The up-going ball needs energy to go up, the down-going ball accelerates as it comes down without any effort. Thus, we got the answer: Take the racket back high as Federer does, and then from this high point add the down-forward-upward acceleration.

I may like to add one more point: At point of contact, Federer hitting elbow is not fully straight. This is the only flaw I see in his backhand as we compare his to Wawrinka's backhand. As you come into contact your hitting arm-elbow must be straight to form L shape.

Great discussions.

 

[Nostradamus]

Another great eastern backhand grip

 

[Hmgraphite1]

Another great eastern backhand grip

Looks at or almost sw to me

 

[Mahboob Khan]

On the one-handed versus two-handed. Robert Lansdorp ended the discussion when he said I always ask the kid which one he wants to hit. He taught Pete the one-hander even though his personal opinion was that he had a great two-hander.
I've written before that watching a lot of ex college players play NTRP in their 30s and 40s, their two handers don't look too good anymore and they look like natural one handers. Let's assume you can up your ranking 20 spots with a two-hander in the juniors. Is that really the dominant goal--even if it were true? To the parents YES! nd the coaches cow tow and sometimes get very aggressive about the two handers sublime complete dominance. How would we know when of the hundred kids I filmed at the Easter Bowl last year there were two onehanders. And someone will say yes! That's the point. And then you have the Japanese American girl of modest stature who won the 18s the year before with a gorgeous one-hander. If no one is hitting the one the two hander is defacto dominant. But if half the top players had developed a one...well...think you'd see a different story? But Bobby needs to be a winner in the 12s... Uh, sport for a lifetime?

You have to be natural either with 1-hander or 2-hander.

My coaching approach is as follows:

Working with adult beginners: I feed them few balls to see what's their natural instinct. If they are using one hand, I teach one-hander, if they have two hands on the handle I teach 2-handed BH.

Working with children: Generally the 10U kids have two hands on the handle so I teach them 2-handed BH. Later on, if they feel they need to change I help them change.

Nice to hear from John Yandell.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Thread with discussions and opinions on what the off arm does.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...does-using-the-left-hand-on-ohbh-make.582456/

 

[Chas Tennis]

From another 2018 thread -
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...backhand-please-comment.617229/#post-12299937

It appears that Federer is not pressing on his upper arm with his chest in this backhand.

" Consider viewing from above as the line between the two shoulders turns. If the chest is pressed to the upper arm, the upper arm will move with the line between the shoulders. The upper arm may lower while in contact with the chest and be angled down. The shoulder muscles that would separate the upper arm are relaxed for the first part of the forward swing.

Imagine that you were squeezing a credit card between your upper arm and chest during acceleration, the credit card would be squeezed hard. For Federer the credit card would drop out. For Wawrinka, Gasquet and Justine Henin the credit card would be squeezed. See the videos.

"


Video posted July 2017. Recording date unknown. See Youtube.

Is this backhand pictured above typical of his latest 2017 improved backhands??

 

[Chas Tennis]

Timing details of a Gasquet 103 MPH one hand backhand. See close-up at 22 seconds. Note the close up is viewed from the side of the court so that the ball boy seems behind Gasquet, but the ball boy is also well to the side. See other camera view of ball boy.

Single frame on Youtube use the "," and "." keys.

Including
1) Shoulder & hip positions on turn back.
2) Shoulder & hip timing on forward swing.
3) Shoulder to hip separation occurring in the forward swing. Maximum separation around 8 sec.
4) Uppermost body turn and upper arm separation.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

One handed backhand was the main reason why Federer was only average player on clay courts. On clay only two handed backhands or one handed backhand with a long swing are effective(Kuerten, Wawrinka). Federer`s backhand is not a good technique. It works well only on fast surfaces. The same problem was with Edberg, Sampras, McEnroe and Becker.

 

[Hmgraphite1]

One handed backhand was the main reason why Federer was only average player on clay courts. On clay only two handed backhands or one handed backhand with a long swing are effective(Kuerten, Wawrinka). Federer`s backhand is not a good technique. It works well only on fast surfaces. The same problem was with Edberg, Sampras, McEnroe and Becker.

Sounds like a generalization, perhaps not as accurate as you imply

 

[IowaGuy]

Timing details of a Gasquet 103 MPH one hand backhand. See close-up at 22 seconds. Note the close up is viewed from the side of the court so that the ball boy seems behind Gasquet, but the ball boy is also well to the side. See other camera view of ball boy.

Single frame on Youtube use the "," and "." keys.

Including
1) Shoulder & hip positions on turn back.
2) Shoulder & hip timing on forward swing.
3) Shoulder to hip separation occurring in the forward swing. Maximum separation around 8 sec.
4) Uppermost body turn and upper arm separation.

That is also a great example of weight transfer into the ball.

Note that he starts with all his weight on his back foot (front foot is in the air at 0:04).

Then after the shot, all weight is on his front foot (back foot is in the air at 0:12).

 

[Dragy]

That is also a great example of weight transfer into the ball.

Note that he starts with all his weight on his back foot (front foot is in the air at 0:04).

Then after the shot, all weight is on his front foot (back foot is in the air at 0:12).

He's actually pushing off his front foot. So stopping the "weight transfer" and facitilating rotation. To produce, how they call it? parametric acceleration?

 

[IowaGuy]

He's actually pushing off his front foot. So stopping the "weight transfer" and facitilating rotation. To produce, how they call it? parametric acceleration?

Well, I believe he's pushing off his back foot first, to get the weight transfer into his front foot.

Otherwise, he could just leave his back foot on the ground, if all he needs to do is push off the front foot...

 

[Dragy]

Well, I believe he's pushing off his back foot first, to get the weight transfer into his front foot.

Otherwise, he could just leave his back foot on the ground, if all he needs to do is push off the front foot...

No, that’s not “all he needs”. The forward transfer is important like it is for volleyball player taking off of the ground.
My concern is more about the “weight moving forward while contacting the ball” interpretation which I see here and there, and which is imprecise at best.

 

[Chas Tennis]

How players either rotate their bodies or step forward with 'weight transfer' is a complicated subject.

In the first part of the video, seconds 0-12, you can see that Gasquet is running to the right and suddenly is stopped about the time that he puts his right foot down for the last time. Look at his head motion at seconds 5-12 using the back wall as a reference. Notice that his head hardly moves with reference to letters on the back wall. His right hip also goes back at about that time. I'd say that he may have momentum in running and then stops himself with his right foot and then the left side of this body continues forward with inertia. ? Look for his foot to touch down, his head motion after that and his right hip moving back.

Single frame on Youtube use the "," and "." keys.

This also involves the complicated subject of the older more linear 'weight transfer' by stepping forward VS the more modern body circular rotation for forehands and backhands. The best video that I have seen on this subject is the Dan Brown video "I'm on your side....." that deals with the forehand. Look especially at the head motions of superimposed linear and circular backhands at 4:31. (I'd like to see a similar video for the backhand!)

Are your stroke concepts more linear or rotational? Is Gasquet's backhand rotational?

Mixing concepts of body rotation and 'weight transfer' (whatever that really is?) may be confusing the understanding of what is going on. I suspect that if you really want body rotation, running and then suddenly stopping by planting one foot is one way to get what's necessary. There are probably several ways to get what's necessary. Look for accelerations and stretched muscles...................

I'd like to see another thread on this complicated topic. Ideally it would include a clear video that deals squarely with the weight transfer vs body rotation for the one hand backhand exactly as the Dan Brown video does for the forehand.

 

[IowaGuy]

My concern is more about the “weight moving forward while contacting the ball” interpretation which I see here and there, and which is imprecise at best.

Yes, but so many rec players hit off their back foot, that a mental image of "weight moving forward" can be helpful.

 

[Dragy]

Yes, but so many rec players hit off their back foot, that a mental image of "weight moving forward" can be helpful.

I like the “step in” tip.

 

[Pete Player]

I suspect every one of you DO NOT his a 1hbh topspin.
If you have, you will KNOW the first move is footwork to a closed stance, then a oft hip push with your butt muscles that starts the torso turn, THEN the arm/shoulder starts it's swing.
Ignore me if you want, by TRY hitting topspin 1hbh's. The arm/shoulder comes AFTER that initial push with the butt or hip of the oft hand side.
That is why a closed stance is essential for penetrating 1hbh topspins.

I would argue on the legwork starting torso turn. In my head it is the hips, which initially start turning forward by legs pushing. Shoulders are supposed to stay coiled back till the forward motion has started in the lower body.

In golf that build up of lag is called x-factor, the difference in degrees between shoulders and hips. If timing is correct, SSC is happening between shoulders and hips.

Initally take back and prep should happen simultaniously with a step forward, which is one key element to build up lag and making the x-factor to build up.

Either you take racket back and step, or walk pass the hitting arm as you take it back. The biggest power supply is in the feet and timing that step according to your uncoiling, which as said should only start after you have stepped and started your lower body to uncoil, upper arm rotations is another.

And yes, I do hit heavy topspin onehanded backhand.


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No more on pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter are still subject to disclaimer

 

[LeeD]

You are saying the same as me..leg initiates hip.