The point of this thread was to examine the initial acceleration of the one hand backhand. The backhands of Justine Henin, Wawrinka and Gasquet and others were observed to have the chest very close and probably touching the upper arm during initial acceleration. This indicates to me that the uppermost body turn is used for the initial stroke acceleration and not the shoulder joint muscles. The backhand drives of F. Lopez and Federer and others do not do this. Lopez does not have a strong backhand drive. Federer has a strong backhand drive. My conclusion is that there is an important difference. I first realized this at about post #51.That's just solid play, and a solid 1HBH.
Didn't you do one of your backhands in a side-by-side video with Wawrinka? I would have looked at this issue. Did I make some comments on your post?
The shoulder muscles can be used before contact, I've seen that. Probably the strong body forces have to back off so that the weaker shoulder muscles can move the upper arm off the chest. ? Maybe the Henin video is showing that muscle use? If we had videos from above these issues would be easy to see.Yes sir, and ys sir. A lot of the same discussion as well, and all good observations. I think with the arm closer to the chest the natural rotation allows less use of the shoulder with a more solid position at contact. I use a bit more should and open more, so still working on that.
Wawrinka has a very conservative eastern backhand grip though.Not sure about that.
I read somewhere (probably Yandell's Tennisplayer.net) that Federer and Wawrinka belong to slightly different camps: Wawrinka more western backhand grip, and Federer more eastern. The opening of the body (hip rotation) was mentioned in that comparison.
For forehand, angular momentum generated by hip rotation is important. But for 1HBH, it's more linear momentum than angular momentum, especially if you use eastern backhand grip like Federer.
So, unless you mean to preach stronger, western backhand grip - and the resultant accentuation of hip rotation - is a better mechanism than eastern, I don't see why Wawrinka's style is better for recreational players than Federer's.
In this thread, post #51, 2 1/2 years after the thread started, spells out the main point. It's about the video observation of the chest touching the upper arm and its timing and some discussions of the biomechanics. From post #51 to the end are some illustrations, videos and some arguments. Read #51 to end of the thread and try to make high speed video supply the answers.Wawrinka has a very conservative eastern backhand grip though.
I've literally never thought to "touch my chest with my upper arm" in all my years of hitting one handed backhands, or ever heard this from a coach. This smells like the equivalent of "point your buttcap at the ball" and could only come from misguided armchair scientists.In this thread, post #51, 2 1/2 years after the thread started, spells out the main point. It's about the video observation of the chest touching the upper arm and its timing and some discussions of the biomechanics. From post #51 to the end are some illustrations, videos and some arguments. Read #51 to end of the thread and try to make high speed video supply the answers.
Interesting graph. Are there more? It would have been more interesting to see spin on one axis and pace on the other for the one hand backhand.@Chas Tennis - have you studied much of Tsitipas' backhand technique? He hits one of the spinniest BH in the ATP (behind Gasquet, Shapo, and Ceccihnato), but his technique seems a little different than Gasquet/Henin/Wawrinka. Sometimes it doesn't look like he makes contact with the chest (like Fed doesn't). Also, his backswing isn't quite as vertical and his follow-through sometimes seems a little more to the side than Gasquet. Food for thought...
This thread has some interesting discussions on the one hand backhand.Nice video.
Looking at several of the backhands, I think Tsitsipas uses relatively less chest-press-on-upper-arm time and more shoulder joint motion time. His upper arm separates from the chest earlier, well before impact. Does he have enough uppermost body turn? This is the kind of difference that needs a side-by-side comparison or a countdown time scale to document. Some of these backhands may be less intense. ? The distance the ball travels is proportional to pace for similar trajectories.
At 8:23, frame with impact, he must be looking through the back of the racket strings. Others? Should we all be viewing through the back of the strings if we wanted to copy one of these players as a model? Something to observe when the camera angle is favorable.
On the forehand the torso rotates first (along with the push with the legs) which brings the arm and racket forward (ideally). The racket lags and so on.
On one handed backhand the torso rotation and the arm swing happen at the same time. True or false?
I agree that spin vs. pace would make a nice graph, but this is the only one that I'm aware of. I'm not sure if/where such stats are stored?Interesting graph. Are there more? It would have been more interesting to see spin on one axis and pace on the other for the one hand backhand.
You think watching videos of 4.0's hitting crosscourt 1HBH will teach you which forces start the forward swing on a high-level 1HBH?Why don't you guys spend more time hitting backhands crosscourt and record it to watch for yourself instead of posting videos of other pros and graphs and armchair science?
Man that article is going to upset Chas big time. The motionblur alone will give him heartburn...Nice article here from tacticaltennis.com.
Jumping is completely optional, but the one handed backhand mechanism is pretty well described there.
Again.. we are all looking for that sweet divine feeling of beautifully yet effortlessly struck one handed backhands that we wish we can hit more often.
I'd like to see more analyses of footwork and don't know much about it, it's complicated.Man that article is going to upset Chas big time. The motionblur alone will give him heartburn...
The Gasquet video motion interpretation, if true, is much simpler to understand than the Shapovalov jump off the ground backhand. https://www.tacticaltennis.com/shapovalovs-jumping-backhand/How players either rotate their bodies or step forward with 'weight transfer' is a complicated subject.
In the first part of the video, seconds 0-12, you can see that Gasquet is running to the right and suddenly is stopped about the time that he puts his right foot down for the last time. Look at his head motion at seconds 5-12 using the back wall as a reference. Notice that his head hardly moves with reference to letters on the back wall. His right hip also goes back at about that time. I'd say that he may have momentum in running and then stops himself with his right foot and then the left side of this body continues forward with inertia. ? Look for his foot to touch down, his head motion after that and his right hip moving back.
Single frame on Youtube use the "," and "." keys.
This also involves the complicated subject of the older more linear 'weight transfer' by stepping forward VS the more modern body circular rotation for forehands and backhands. The best video that I have seen on this subject is the Dan Brown video "I'm on your side....." that deals with the forehand. Look especially at the head motions of superimposed linear and circular backhands at 4:31. (I'd like to see a similar video for the backhand!)
Are your stroke concepts more linear or rotational? Is Gasquet's backhand rotational?
Mixing concepts of body rotation and 'weight transfer' (whatever that really is?) may be confusing the understanding of what is going on. I suspect that if you really want body rotation, running and then suddenly stopping by planting one foot is one way to get what's necessary. There are probably several ways to get what's necessary. Look for accelerations and stretched muscles...................
I'd like to see another thread on this complicated topic. Ideally it would include a clear video that deals squarely with the weight transfer vs body rotation for the one hand backhand exactly as the Dan Brown video does for the forehand.
I was not going to comment on your obsession on "chest press". Unlike Shroud, I know that these things fuels your fever not giving you heart burn. Though I have no problem you focusing on chest press....'chest press'
The uppermost body turns and that causes the chest to press with force on the upper arm. The muscles that produce uppermost body turn were not detailed. The chest press is an observation that distinguishes getting initial upper arm acceleration from body turn vs initial upper arm acceleration from shoulder joint muscles..........................................................................................
I am sure you realize that muscle works by contraction, meaning pulling but not pushing. Each muscle fiber is like a thin string, a rope if you like, that once fired would contract or shorten. A contracted muscle cannot do work or cannot provide any force. If the chest press works then you can probably market a piece of rigid foam pad fastened to the chest to increase the chest press during backhand. Thus I would rather focus on the compression, or tightening of all the muscle groups that is on the outside of the arm/shoulder/back that CAN provide the driving force.
At first, in the posts before Fxanimator1 posted, I thought that the upper arm should be held tight to the chest with muscles (pecs and others?) before forward hitting arm motion.Chest press in this context is passive as read in between the lines of Chas’ post #175. Loose arm will straighten as the hand drops and racket + playing arm is lagged behind the uncoiling motion.
If you held the playing arm against your chest actively, it would never swing past the turn, or would eventually, but it would slow the release down.
No more on -sorry, again on pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter are subject to disclaimer
As an answer to the last paragraph, I am still quite confident, the active press itself is quite soft and upper arm and shoulder muscles on the playing hand being loose let the scapula slide forward in the prep and as the forward shoulder turn start pulling forward the arm is compressed against the chest.At first, in the posts before Fxanimator1 posted, I thought that the upper arm should be held tight to the chest with muscles (pecs and others?) before forward hitting arm motion.
Fxanimator1, whose one hand backhand uses a chest press, said the uppermost body turn would turn the chest into the upper arm and the uppermost body turn itself by lag without muscles pulling upper arm to chest and I agreed with his point. Fxanimator1 seemed to understand the chest press stroke very well. His backhand is smooth.
I currently think that either the upper arm could be pulled tight before initial acceleration forward with muscle or left for the uppermost body acceleration to create the chest press. Both should work to initially accelerate the hitting arm forward. To be determined..............
Later, when you want the upper arm to move off the chest with shoulder joint motion, the second stage, then there would be no muscles or uppermost body acceleration holding the upper arm to the chest, in other words no chest press.
My backhand technique is a poor example, but I feel the scapula should be forward at maximum turn back, you should feel stretch (scapula stretch?) in the upper back behind your shoulder, the chest should be pressed to the chest and you should feel that. See videos. Details to be determined and developed by practice.
You get indications of forces in videos by positions but you can't accurately observe the forces of muscles in videos.
In earlier posts, Draggy and I had a discussion about chest press (Chas) vs pulling forces from the back of the shoulder (Draggy). The discussion sides seemed to be chest press or pulling from the back, but not both. Here are some more considerations.
Over simplified -- What happens when the uppermost body turns with acceleration but the shoulder joint muscles do not change length, as seen in videos by the upper arm not moving off the chest? The uppermost body can be turned by the legs-hips-pelvis and trunk twisting and it can pull on the back and push on the front using chest press even when the shoulder joint muscles do not change length. While that uppermost body accelerating is occurring the shoulder joint muscles at the back of the shoulder do not change length but there is pulling on the shoulder mass/upper arm/racket.
One complication: The scapula (shoulder blade) is part of a strange joint, it slides around in all directions on the curved rib cage. The scapula's location is important because the shoulder joint is located on it. The scapula's position has effects on the lengths of many muscles including their degree of stretch. Videos of one hand backhands indicate the scapula is well forward at maximum turn back of the uppermost body. Notice the position of the scapula on tennis stroke videos.
Demo - Place your straight arm across your chest until the pressing of your chest stops the upper arm. You probably moved your scapula well forward. Now move your scapula toward your back. The position of the scapula is important for the chest press effect on the upper arm. I have often heard it said, including by Justine Henin, that on the maximum turn back to 'look over your shoulder'. I believe that advice indicates that the scapula has moved forward. See videos.
The demo was intended to illustrate with slow movement how the scapula moves on your body and how that movement affects the angle of the upper arm across the chest when the chest is in contact. The demo was not to simulate the one hand backhand.As an answer to the last paragraph, I am still quite confident, the active press itself is quite soft and upper arm and shoulder muscles on the playing hand being loose let the scapula slide forward in the prep and as the forward shoulder turn start pulling forward the arm is compressed against the chest.
Mimicking the positions without the dynamics result wrong muscle activity relative to actual shots.
Take back/prep is normally helped with the loose arm at the racket throat.
Looks like some definite scapula movement on Gasquet and Guga!The position of the scapula is important for the chest press effect on the upper arm. I have often heard it said, including by Justine Henin, that on the maximum turn back to 'look over your shoulder at the ball'. I believe that advice indicates that the scapula has moved forward. See videos.
Fxanimator1, What do you think of this description?
When the upper body/chest turn is used to initially accelerate the arm by the chest directly pressing on the upper arm, the pace of the one hand backhand can be higher and the initial acceleration can be higher. Imagine squeezing a credit card between your chest and upper arm. See high speed videos.
Is accelerating a body part by pressing on it with another body part a known biomechanical principle?
In this thread, I've made some arguments and illustrated them with high speed videos..............................................................................................................................................
I consider the chest press an observation/checkpoint that separates one backhand technique from a second backhand technique. Compare Feliciano Lopez to Gasquet regarding the chest press checkpoint.
Looks almost just like Thiem's backhand!This kid seems to be hitting big backhands. I can't see what he is doing so far with this poor quality video. ??
A 6-year-old has the one-handed backhand seen ’round the world. A young tennis player from the UK went viral Thursday after his dad posted a video of him hitting powerful one-handed backhand shots …nypost.com
Looks 'chest press' to me.
If you see a Youtube, please post the link.
I'm not advocating that young children do forceful tennis strokes.
That is one of the best videos I've seen.Some good slow-motion video of Guga's BH, 2:57 and 4:12 are nice views from behind.
I wonder if/how much Guga uses his off hand to get the racket into that extreme ready position, with his shoulder under his chin? When I try it at home, it feels like I can pull the racket (and my right arm) back further by using my off hand, versus just letting the off hand come along for the ride while I position the racket with my right hand...That is one of the best videos I've seen.
It shows chest press and the scapular position leading up to impact. On the take back, Guga rotates his uppermost body back and especially moves his scapula (shoulder blade) forward on the side of his chest for strong backhands. He moves his shoulder blade forward so that his chin gets behind his shoulder. See backhand close-ups in video.
Picture from your earlier post. You can see the shoulder blade position and his extreme positioning by the chin-shoulder position.
Demo. If you place your straight arm across your chest, upper arm pressed to chest, you will get a certain angle limited by the chest contact. Looking down at my forearm - shoulder blade in usual position - my straight arm-to-chest angle looks about 45 degrees to my chest, limited by the chest press. If you then move your shoulder blade forward, the forearm can move closer to the chest while still being limited by pressing the chest. In other words, the angle of the straight arm to the shoulder girdle gets smaller, in videos, the forearm is seen to get closer to the chest. If you then pull the shoulder blade back, it moves the elbow & forearm forward. This shoulder blade motion could add to rotation speed and racket head speed. ??
At 4:12, watch Guga's back at shoulder area to get an idea of when the shoulder blade moves to his back. The shoulder blade seems way forward and then back to neutral before impact. ? Using shoulder blade motion may be unusual for most players, so be aware of stresses to your body.
Moving the shoulder blade back would also use the chest press to move the upper arm forward to impact. Shoulder blade motion is an interesting thing to look for in one hand backhand videos. How important is the scapular motion to the biomechanics of the one hand backhand. ???
When I tried your off hand observation, I felt what you mean.I wonder if/how much Guga uses his off hand to get the racket into that extreme ready position, with his shoulder under his chin? When I try it at home, it feels like I can pull the racket (and my right arm) back further by using my off hand, versus just letting the off hand come along for the ride while I position the racket with my right hand...
How is energy stored up in the arm? Stretching muscles?Based on what I’ve been taught, my coach says that the energy is stored up in the arm and is released when the non dominant hand releases the racket and rather than what most people think, the racket creates more topspin rather than power, most of the power comes from the unit turn and the hips
Several videos have been shown and discussed that indicate that the best backhands are not using a "C" shaped swing. You should see a 'lazy L' shaped swing, straight down then forward. See Justine Henin swing path in post #190. But always look at the videos to make sure words describe what the ATP or WTA players are doing and what % of players are doing that technique.Yes, gravity brings down the racket first with the c shaped swing however, the energy built up is used to strike up on the ball or brush up depending on how you view it.
I haven't studied Kohl's 1HBH much, but that angle at 2:06 makes it look like he's in the non-chest press category...Compare strokes frame-by-frame on Youtube using the comma & period keys for single frame. Always select Youtube videos by holding down the Alt KEY and Left mouse click. ( otherwise video starts playing)
Stop on impact on two or three videos. Compare similar positions of the racket during the stroke. Best to select similar camera angles if possibly.
1HBH Justine Henin 0:31 & 1:46
1HBH Richard Gasquet at 1:39
1HBH Stan Wawrinka at 2:50