One Hand Backhand - Waht Force to Start Forward Swing?

Pete Player

Hall of Fame
You are saying the same as me..leg initiates hip.
My bad, figured it too detailed and got the idea of the whole trunk to be turning at the same time with the hips.


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No more on pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter are still subject to disclaimer
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Very good illustration of model backhander Justine Henin hitting a strong backhand with chest press on the upper arm.

The time of the best video is 44 sec just before the bounce. On Youtube advance one frame at a time by using the "." and "," KEYS. Use full screen.

The chest is pressed to the upper arm and the upper arm and uppermost body move together in sync until just before contact. For contact her uppermost body may slow or stop and maybe her shoulder muscles finish to impact (blocked in this video). See relative motion between the arm and uppermost body. Stripes on the shorts show the timing of her hip turn.

The ball was impacted on the racket centerline near the tip. Just an observation.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
That's just solid play, and a solid 1HBH.
The point of this thread was to examine the initial acceleration of the one hand backhand. The backhands of Justine Henin, Wawrinka and Gasquet and others were observed to have the chest very close and probably touching the upper arm during initial acceleration. This indicates to me that the uppermost body turn is used for the initial stroke acceleration and not the shoulder joint muscles. The backhand drives of F. Lopez and Federer and others do not do this. Lopez does not have a strong backhand drive. Federer has a strong backhand drive. My conclusion is that there is an important difference. I first realized this at about post #51.

A detailed post of frames of Federer makes this clear, post #138. There is a video of F. Lopez also. Do you see the difference in the videos?

I believe in settling differences of opinion with evidence based high speed video observations. There are many videos and pictures that illustrate chest pressing the upper arm and in contrast the arm separating from the chest away from the upper arm early.

The chest and upper arm touching is a checkpoint for one high level technique used for the one hand backhand.

There may be more spine twisting to turn the uppermost body for the chest press. That could be too stressful for many backs.

Didn't you do one of your backhands in a side-by-side video with Wawrinka? I would have looked at this issue. Did I make some comments on your post?
 
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ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
Didn't you do one of your backhands in a side-by-side video with Wawrinka? I would have looked at this issue. Did I make some comments on your post?

Yes sir, and ys sir. A lot of the same discussion as well, and all good observations. I think with the arm closer to the chest the natural rotation allows less use of the shoulder with a more solid position at contact. I use a bit more should and open more, so still working on that.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Yes sir, and ys sir. A lot of the same discussion as well, and all good observations. I think with the arm closer to the chest the natural rotation allows less use of the shoulder with a more solid position at contact. I use a bit more should and open more, so still working on that.
The shoulder muscles can be used before contact, I've seen that. Probably the strong body forces have to back off so that the weaker shoulder muscles can move the upper arm off the chest. ? Maybe the Henin video is showing that muscle use? If we had videos from above these issues would be easy to see.

The timing of the body turn and shoulder joint separation relative to contact is an interesting issue.

As far as video observations, the upper arm is oval and the chest is curved. The area between these surfaces is seen only as a shadow. It is more reliable to observe how the line between the two shoulders and upper arm move, do they move together? That indicates there likely are forces between the chest and upper arm.
 
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tennisbike

Professional
Not sure how much I can contribute about OHBH but here it goes..

I am feeling better but for a few weeks my right shoulder felt kind of odd. Without giving more detail, I would just to say that I felt that it was necessary to modify my OHBH. It feels tender especially when I start cold, when I first start hitting. I naturally wanted to avoid using my shoulder muscle to initiate my forward swing. As a result, I was exaggerating using my body/shoulder to move my hitting arm/racket forward. I then found that I was hitting my backhand better that way, less shoulder meaning less arming, but with more shoulder turn and let the body rotate and allowing the arms to follow and driven around/forward.

FYI, I disagree about upper arm touching chest being important. Anyway.. We all need different cue.. different trigger image to get the same thing done. No matter.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
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ReopeningWed

Professional
Not sure about that.

I read somewhere (probably Yandell's Tennisplayer.net) that Federer and Wawrinka belong to slightly different camps: Wawrinka more western backhand grip, and Federer more eastern. The opening of the body (hip rotation) was mentioned in that comparison.

For forehand, angular momentum generated by hip rotation is important. But for 1HBH, it's more linear momentum than angular momentum, especially if you use eastern backhand grip like Federer.

So, unless you mean to preach stronger, western backhand grip - and the resultant accentuation of hip rotation - is a better mechanism than eastern, I don't see why Wawrinka's style is better for recreational players than Federer's.
Wawrinka has a very conservative eastern backhand grip though.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Wawrinka has a very conservative eastern backhand grip though.
In this thread, post #51, 2 1/2 years after the thread started, spells out the main point. It's about the video observation of the chest touching the upper arm and its timing and some discussions of the biomechanics. From post #51 to the end are some illustrations, videos and some arguments. Read #51 to end of the thread and try to make high speed video supply the answers.
 
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IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
@Chas Tennis - have you studied much of Tsitipas' backhand technique? He hits one of the spinniest BH in the ATP (behind Gasquet, Shapo, and Ceccihnato), but his technique seems a little different than Gasquet/Henin/Wawrinka. Sometimes it doesn't look like he makes contact with the chest (like Fed doesn't). Also, his backswing isn't quite as vertical and his follow-through sometimes seems a little more to the side than Gasquet. Food for thought...


 

ReopeningWed

Professional
In this thread, post #51, 2 1/2 years after the thread started, spells out the main point. It's about the video observation of the chest touching the upper arm and its timing and some discussions of the biomechanics. From post #51 to the end are some illustrations, videos and some arguments. Read #51 to end of the thread and try to make high speed video supply the answers.
I've literally never thought to "touch my chest with my upper arm" in all my years of hitting one handed backhands, or ever heard this from a coach. This smells like the equivalent of "point your buttcap at the ball" and could only come from misguided armchair scientists.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
@Chas Tennis - have you studied much of Tsitipas' backhand technique? He hits one of the spinniest BH in the ATP (behind Gasquet, Shapo, and Ceccihnato), but his technique seems a little different than Gasquet/Henin/Wawrinka. Sometimes it doesn't look like he makes contact with the chest (like Fed doesn't). Also, his backswing isn't quite as vertical and his follow-through sometimes seems a little more to the side than Gasquet. Food for thought...


Interesting graph. Are there more? It would have been more interesting to see spin on one axis and pace on the other for the one hand backhand.

I took a quick look at Tsitsipas's one hand backhand. An issue for observing techniques is whether the player intends to hit heavy pace.
Nice video.

Looking at several of the backhands, I think Tsitsipas uses relatively less chest-press-on-upper-arm time and more shoulder joint motion time. His upper arm separates from the chest earlier, well before impact. Does he have enough uppermost body turn? This is the kind of difference that needs a side-by-side comparison or a countdown time scale to document. Some of these backhands may be less intense. ? The distance the ball travels is proportional to pace for similar trajectories.

At 8:23, frame with impact, he must be looking through the back of the racket strings. Others? Should we all be viewing through the back of the strings if we wanted to copy one of these players as a model? Something to observe when the camera angle is favorable.
This thread has some interesting discussions on the one hand backhand.
On the forehand the torso rotates first (along with the push with the legs) which brings the arm and racket forward (ideally). The racket lags and so on.
On one handed backhand the torso rotation and the arm swing happen at the same time. True or false?
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
I have seen Tsitsipas hit what appears to be very heavy paced backhands, mostly on TV. In the video that Iowa Guy posted, I don't know how that intensity compares to the Tsitsipas TV backhands regarding pace or technique.

I have seen Federer hit what appears to be very heavy paced backhands, mostly on TV.

I have seen both
1) the apparent chest touch with shoulders line and upper arm moving in sync and also
2) the upper arm separate early from the chest so that no touch is there.

I had concluded a few years ago that there is more than one technique being used to hit high level one hand backhand drives. I prefer the chest press technique because I've seen it is more widely used based on a small number of ATP players.

Leading to impact, there are two phases
1) chest press with upper arm touching/pressing on upper arm.
2) shoulder joint with upper arm separation from chest.

The times used for each phase varies, that is, the % of chest press time or distance traveled vs the % of shoulder joint motion time or distance traveled.

F. Lopez ~ 0 % chest press,
Federer small % or none. ?
Tsitsipas, some chest press in the above video.? More for heavier pace?
Justine Henin, Gasquet and Wawrinka, Thiem and others have a lot of chest press.

See high speed videos.

Warning - increasing the pace can stress the arm especially for mishits (according to one publication).
 
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IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
Interesting graph. Are there more? It would have been more interesting to see spin on one axis and pace on the other for the one hand backhand.
I agree that spin vs. pace would make a nice graph, but this is the only one that I'm aware of. I'm not sure if/where such stats are stored?

You might have seen it already, but the NYT did a nice feature on the Wawrinka BH a few years ago, it had spin & pace of his CC vs. DTL shots.

 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
Why don't you guys spend more time hitting backhands crosscourt and record it to watch for yourself instead of posting videos of other pros and graphs and armchair science?
You think watching videos of 4.0's hitting crosscourt 1HBH will teach you which forces start the forward swing on a high-level 1HBH?

Obviously you don't spend much time around middle-age club tennis :)
 

tennisbike

Professional
Nice article here from tacticaltennis.com.

Jumping is completely optional, but the one handed backhand mechanism is pretty well described there.

Again.. we are all looking for that sweet divine feeling of beautifully yet effortlessly struck one handed backhands that we wish we can hit more often.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
Nice article here from tacticaltennis.com.

Jumping is completely optional, but the one handed backhand mechanism is pretty well described there.

Again.. we are all looking for that sweet divine feeling of beautifully yet effortlessly struck one handed backhands that we wish we can hit more often.
Man that article is going to upset Chas big time. The motionblur alone will give him heartburn...
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Man that article is going to upset Chas big time. The motionblur alone will give him heartburn...
I'd like to see more analyses of footwork and don't know much about it, it's complicated.

One interesting thing, converting running speed into body rotation was mentioned above. Even Shroud and I could do this.
How players either rotate their bodies or step forward with 'weight transfer' is a complicated subject.

In the first part of the video, seconds 0-12, you can see that Gasquet is running to the right and suddenly is stopped about the time that he puts his right foot down for the last time. Look at his head motion at seconds 5-12 using the back wall as a reference. Notice that his head hardly moves with reference to letters on the back wall. His right hip also goes back at about that time. I'd say that he may have momentum in running and then stops himself with his right foot and then the left side of this body continues forward with inertia. ? Look for his foot to touch down, his head motion after that and his right hip moving back.
Single frame on Youtube use the "," and "." keys.

This also involves the complicated subject of the older more linear 'weight transfer' by stepping forward VS the more modern body circular rotation for forehands and backhands. The best video that I have seen on this subject is the Dan Brown video "I'm on your side....." that deals with the forehand. Look especially at the head motions of superimposed linear and circular backhands at 4:31. (I'd like to see a similar video for the backhand!)

Are your stroke concepts more linear or rotational? Is Gasquet's backhand rotational?

Mixing concepts of body rotation and 'weight transfer' (whatever that really is?) may be confusing the understanding of what is going on. I suspect that if you really want body rotation, running and then suddenly stopping by planting one foot is one way to get what's necessary. There are probably several ways to get what's necessary. Look for accelerations and stretched muscles...................

I'd like to see another thread on this complicated topic. Ideally it would include a clear video that deals squarely with the weight transfer vs body rotation for the one hand backhand exactly as the Dan Brown video does for the forehand.
The Gasquet video motion interpretation, if true, is much simpler to understand than the Shapovalov jump off the ground backhand. https://www.tacticaltennis.com/shapovalovs-jumping-backhand/
In the Shapovalov backhand article, I'm still only trying to understand the comments made about the hips and their internal and external hip rotation.

Shapovalov does seem to be a good example of the 'chest press' even when up in the air.


 
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tennisbike

Professional
..'chest press'
I was not going to comment on your obsession on "chest press". Unlike Shroud, I know that these things fuels your fever not giving you heart burn. Though I have no problem you focusing on chest press..

I am sure you realize that muscle works by contraction, meaning pulling but not pushing. Each muscle fiber is like a thin string, a rope if you like, that once fired would contract or shorten. A contracted muscle cannot do work or cannot provide any force. If the chest press works then you can probably market a piece of rigid foam pad fastened to the chest to increase the chest press during backhand. Thus I would rather focus on the compression, or tightening of all the muscle groups that is on the outside of the arm/shoulder/back that CAN provide the driving force.

Now I am going to stir the pot, I think the "modern" stroke is more LINEAR than the traditional or old school way. The way I visualize these strokes is that the take back loop, the potential gravitational energy and the rotational kinetic energy gets transfer to more or less linear kinetic energy, hence building up racket linear speed toward the ball(contact). Then stopping slowing the forward motion of the hand, by either reaching near the end of forward displacement moving of the body/arm/racket radius arm turn rotate across, further jack knife, or whip snap, the racket face forward. Squaring racket face through the contact, then follow through/release the racket continues the motion as it slows to come around to reach/wrap around the head for forehand or two arms extend out to slow the rotation.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
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I am sure you realize that muscle works by contraction, meaning pulling but not pushing. Each muscle fiber is like a thin string, a rope if you like, that once fired would contract or shorten. A contracted muscle cannot do work or cannot provide any force. If the chest press works then you can probably market a piece of rigid foam pad fastened to the chest to increase the chest press during backhand. Thus I would rather focus on the compression, or tightening of all the muscle groups that is on the outside of the arm/shoulder/back that CAN provide the driving force.
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The uppermost body turns and that causes the chest to press with force on the upper arm. The muscles that produce uppermost body turn were not detailed. The chest press is an observation that distinguishes getting initial upper arm acceleration from body turn vs initial upper arm acceleration from shoulder joint muscles.
 

Pete Player

Hall of Fame
Chest press in this context is passive as read in between the lines of Chas’ post #175. Loose arm will straighten as the hand drops and racket + playing arm is lagged behind the uncoiling motion.

If you held the playing arm against your chest actively, it would never swing past the turn, or would eventually, but it would slow the release down.


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No more on -sorry, again on pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter are subject to disclaimer
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Chest press in this context is passive as read in between the lines of Chas’ post #175. Loose arm will straighten as the hand drops and racket + playing arm is lagged behind the uncoiling motion.

If you held the playing arm against your chest actively, it would never swing past the turn, or would eventually, but it would slow the release down.


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No more on -sorry, again on pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter are subject to disclaimer
At first, in the posts before Fxanimator1 posted, I thought that the upper arm should be held tight to the chest with muscles (pecs and others?) before forward hitting arm motion.

Fxanimator1, whose one hand backhand uses a chest press, said the uppermost body turn would turn the chest into the upper arm and the uppermost body turn itself by lag without muscles pulling upper arm to chest and I agreed with his point. Fxanimator1 seemed to understand the chest press stroke very well. His backhand is smooth.

I currently think that either 1) the upper arm could be pulled tight with muscle before initial acceleration forward or 2) left for the uppermost body acceleration to create the chest press. Both should work to initially accelerate the hitting arm forward. To be determined..............

Later, when you want the upper arm to move off the chest with shoulder joint motion, the second stage, then there would be no muscles or uppermost body acceleration holding the upper arm to the chest, in other words no chest press.

My backhand technique is a poor example, but I feel the scapula should be forward at maximum turn back, you should feel stretch (scapula stretch?) in the upper back behind your shoulder, the chest should be pressed to the upper arm and you should feel that. See videos. Details to be determined and developed by practice.

You get indications of forces in videos by positions but you can't accurately observe the forces of muscles in videos.

In earlier posts, Draggy and I had a discussion about chest press (Chas) vs pulling forces from the back of the shoulder (Draggy). The discussion sides seemed to be chest press or pulling from the back, but not both. Here are some more considerations.

Over simplified -- What happens when the uppermost body turns with acceleration but the shoulder joint muscles do not change length, as seen in videos by the upper arm not moving off the chest? The uppermost body can be turned by the legs-hips-pelvis and trunk twisting and it can pull on the back and push on the front using chest press even when the shoulder joint muscles do not change length. While that uppermost body accelerating is occurring the shoulder joint muscles at the back of the shoulder do not change length but there is pulling from uppermost body turn on the shoulder mass/upper arm/racket.

One complication -- The scapula (shoulder blade) is part of a strange joint, it slides around in all directions on the curved rib cage. The scapula's location is important because the shoulder joint is located on it. The scapula's position has effects on the lengths of many muscles including their degree of stretch. Videos of one hand backhands indicate that the scapula is well forward at maximum turn back of the uppermost body. Notice the position of the scapula on tennis stroke videos.

Demo - Place your straight arm across your chest until the pressing of your chest stops the upper arm. You probably moved your scapula well forward. Now move your scapula toward your back. The position of the scapula is important for the chest press effect on the upper arm. I have often heard it said, including by Justine Henin, that on the maximum turn back to 'look over your shoulder at the ball'. I believe that advice indicates that the scapula has moved forward. See videos.
 
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Pete Player

Hall of Fame
At first, in the posts before Fxanimator1 posted, I thought that the upper arm should be held tight to the chest with muscles (pecs and others?) before forward hitting arm motion.

Fxanimator1, whose one hand backhand uses a chest press, said the uppermost body turn would turn the chest into the upper arm and the uppermost body turn itself by lag without muscles pulling upper arm to chest and I agreed with his point. Fxanimator1 seemed to understand the chest press stroke very well. His backhand is smooth.

I currently think that either the upper arm could be pulled tight before initial acceleration forward with muscle or left for the uppermost body acceleration to create the chest press. Both should work to initially accelerate the hitting arm forward. To be determined..............

Later, when you want the upper arm to move off the chest with shoulder joint motion, the second stage, then there would be no muscles or uppermost body acceleration holding the upper arm to the chest, in other words no chest press.

My backhand technique is a poor example, but I feel the scapula should be forward at maximum turn back, you should feel stretch (scapula stretch?) in the upper back behind your shoulder, the chest should be pressed to the chest and you should feel that. See videos. Details to be determined and developed by practice.

You get indications of forces in videos by positions but you can't accurately observe the forces of muscles in videos.

In earlier posts, Draggy and I had a discussion about chest press (Chas) vs pulling forces from the back of the shoulder (Draggy). The discussion sides seemed to be chest press or pulling from the back, but not both. Here are some more considerations.

Over simplified -- What happens when the uppermost body turns with acceleration but the shoulder joint muscles do not change length, as seen in videos by the upper arm not moving off the chest? The uppermost body can be turned by the legs-hips-pelvis and trunk twisting and it can pull on the back and push on the front using chest press even when the shoulder joint muscles do not change length. While that uppermost body accelerating is occurring the shoulder joint muscles at the back of the shoulder do not change length but there is pulling on the shoulder mass/upper arm/racket.

One complication: The scapula (shoulder blade) is part of a strange joint, it slides around in all directions on the curved rib cage. The scapula's location is important because the shoulder joint is located on it. The scapula's position has effects on the lengths of many muscles including their degree of stretch. Videos of one hand backhands indicate the scapula is well forward at maximum turn back of the uppermost body. Notice the position of the scapula on tennis stroke videos.

Demo - Place your straight arm across your chest until the pressing of your chest stops the upper arm. You probably moved your scapula well forward. Now move your scapula toward your back. The position of the scapula is important for the chest press effect on the upper arm. I have often heard it said, including by Justine Henin, that on the maximum turn back to 'look over your shoulder'. I believe that advice indicates that the scapula has moved forward. See videos.
As an answer to the last paragraph, I am still quite confident, the active press itself is quite soft and upper arm and shoulder muscles on the playing hand being loose let the scapula slide forward in the prep and as the forward shoulder turn start pulling forward the arm is compressed against the chest.

Mimicking the positions without the dynamics result wrong muscle activity relative to actual shots.

Take back/prep is normally helped with the loose arm at the racket throat.



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No more on -sorry, again on pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter are subject to disclaimer
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
As an answer to the last paragraph, I am still quite confident, the active press itself is quite soft and upper arm and shoulder muscles on the playing hand being loose let the scapula slide forward in the prep and as the forward shoulder turn start pulling forward the arm is compressed against the chest.

Mimicking the positions without the dynamics result wrong muscle activity relative to actual shots.

Take back/prep is normally helped with the loose arm at the racket throat.
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The demo was intended to illustrate with slow movement how the scapula moves on your body and how that movement affects the angle of the upper arm across the chest when the chest is in contact. The demo was not to simulate the one hand backhand.

If you wanted to take it farther and simulate the backhand, pay attention to the angle of the upper arm across the chest and all other things seen in videos. Notice that the rotation axis shifts from the spine to the shoulder joint and be aware of the distance of the racket head to each rotation axis, because racket head speed is proportional to that distance X rotation rate. See videos, as word descriptions are not adequate for describing the strokes.

The terms 'active' and 'passive' are often used in a conversation way but they also have been defined in Kinesiology and Biomechanics for use with individual muscles.

The legs-hips-pelvis and the spine twist can have active and passive use of the muscles that result in the acceleration of the uppermost body. Uppermost body turn will cause the chest to press on the upper arm and other muscles on the back to pull. But the back muscles may not be shortening initially to pull because the entire uppermost body is turning.

I don't want to speculate much more about the scapula's muscles and shoulder joint muscles at the initial part of the forward stroke because the many muscles actions are too complex and can't be observed with high speed video.

I use the terms 'active' and 'passive' as if they applied to the many individual muscles even though I can only guess sometimes what a few of the main muscles might be doing. For example, there are 30+ muscles of the legs and trunk that actively and passively cause the uppermost body to turn.

I consider the chest press an observation/checkpoint that separates one backhand technique from a second back hand technique. Compare Feliciano Lopez to Gasquet regarding the chest press checkpoint.
 
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IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
The position of the scapula is important for the chest press effect on the upper arm. I have often heard it said, including by Justine Henin, that on the maximum turn back to 'look over your shoulder at the ball'. I believe that advice indicates that the scapula has moved forward. See videos.
Looks like some definite scapula movement on Gasquet and Guga!



 

AlexSV

Rookie
I have access to an academic library where I can access: Performance Factors Related to the Different Tennis Backhand Groundstrokes: A Review

Of interest:

From a functional point of view, racquet velocity is the product of the relative rotational movements of (a) seven angular velocity components involved with preparation (shoulder internal rotation, shoulder extension and shoulder adduction; elbow flexion and pronation; wrist flexion and ulnar deviation) and power generation (shoulder external rotation, shoulder flexion and shoulder abduction; elbow extension and supination; wrist extension and radial deviation) (Figure 3), and (b) the velocity of the centre of the shoulder joint that is the result of the angular velocity of the trunk and the velocities the two hip joints centres, which are determined by the various rotational velocities in the lower extremities (Mester, 2006).
 

AlexSV

Rookie
I skimmed a few other articles and no one is saying chest. Consensus seems to be hips/trunk plus shoulder rotation with a focus on the angle between the trunk and shoulders.

Some suggestion ATP power/spin is based on elbow flexibility. Likely of interest, the load on the elbow means more tennis elbow for one-handers than two-handers.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Picture the chest as a spacer, like a block of wood, that moves because the uppermost body is rotating but the chest muscles are not doing much.

Fxanimator1, What do you think of this description?

When the upper body/chest turn is used to initially accelerate the arm by the chest directly pressing on the upper arm, the pace of the one hand backhand can be higher and the initial acceleration can be higher. Imagine squeezing a credit card between your chest and upper arm. See high speed videos.

Is accelerating a body part by pressing on it with another body part a known biomechanical principle?
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I consider the chest press an observation/checkpoint that separates one backhand technique from a second backhand technique. Compare Feliciano Lopez to Gasquet regarding the chest press checkpoint.
In this thread, I've made some arguments and illustrated them with high speed videos.

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As far as tennis biomechanics being missed, if you are not familiar with the history of the tennis serve and internal shoulder rotation, read those publications.

 
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tennisbike

Professional
Interesting hypothesis "chest press method", I would like to hear other ideas.

I hate myself doing this but.. I read about myofacsia tissue + rolfing anatomy. The idea is that the whole body is a network of connective tissues. Plus what I know about skeletal muscle, motor unit, works by contraction. Essentially you generate force by becoming shorter. Thus our body movement/structure works by muscle cells working by contracting and relaxing, i.e. lengthening. Since body parts are all soft tissues, force would be inefficient to generating force by pushing body parts to generate push. Anyway.. Let's move on to other ideas.
 

landcookie

Semi-Pro
@OP I think Wawa/ Fed style can both generate pace. If you watched tape of yourself hitting, I'm willing to bet that your prep is slow or mis-timed (unit turn + footwork) when you feel rushed at contact.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
This kid seems to be hitting big backhands. I can't see what he is doing so far with this poor quality video. ??

Looks 'chest press' to me.
(Better video, but can't do stop action.) If you place the cursor on the circle indicating 12 seconds just before the impact frame, each time your press the mouse button the approach to impact is replayed.

If you see a Youtube, please post the link.

I'm not advocating that young children do forceful tennis strokes.
 
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IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
This kid seems to be hitting big backhands. I can't see what he is doing so far with this poor quality video. ??

Looks 'chest press' to me.
(Better video, but can't do stop action.) If you place the cursor on the circle indicating 12 seconds just before the impact frame, each time your press the mouse button the approach to impact is replayed.

If you see a Youtube, please post the link.

I'm not advocating that young children do forceful tennis strokes.
Looks almost just like Thiem's backhand!

 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Model one hand backhand starts at 31 sec. One from side at 1:46.

Shows:
1) Separation of the line between the shoulders and the line between the hips (imagine the separation angle as it would appear as viewed from above)
2) Timing of various rotations bottom to top.
3) Off hand rotating of the racket and hitting arm down as is often seen in high level backhands. The racket angle to the horizontal can be seen but upper arm ISR rotation is not clear and may not be much. ?
4) The scapula is moved forward - she looks over her shoulder as in her tennis instructions - and the scapula is pulled back during her stroke. The scapular biomechanics looks significant and needs more attention.?
5) Chest press in not too clear from this camera angle.

Australian Open 2010, Justine's one hand backhand in action.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Some good slow-motion video of Guga's BH, 2:57 and 4:12 are nice views from behind.

That is one of the best videos I've seen.

It shows chest press and the scapular position leading up to impact. On the take back for strong backhands, Guga rotates his uppermost body back and especially moves his scapula (shoulder blade) forward on the side of his chest. He moves his shoulder blade forward so that his chin gets behind his shoulder. See backhand close-ups in video. Tyr moving your chin there.

Picture from your earlier post. You can see the shoulder blade position and his extreme positioning by the chin-shoulder position.


Demo. If you place your straight arm across your chest, upper arm pressed to chest, you will get a certain angle limited by the chest contact. Looking down at my forearm - shoulder blade in usual position - my straight arm-to-chest angle looks about 45 degrees to my chest, limited by the chest press. If you then move your shoulder blade forward, the forearm can move closer to the chest while still being limited by pressing the chest. In other words, the angle of the straight arm to the shoulder girdle gets smaller, in videos, the forearm is seen to get closer to the chest. If you then pull the shoulder blade back, it moves the elbow & forearm forward. This shoulder blade motion could add to rotation speed and racket head speed. ??

At 4:12, watch Guga's back at shoulder area to get an idea of when the shoulder blade moves to his back. The shoulder blade seems way forward and then back to neutral before impact. ? Using shoulder blade motion may be unusual for most players, so be aware of stresses to your body.

Moving the shoulder blade back would also use the chest press to move the upper arm forward to impact. Shoulder blade motion is an interesting thing to look for in one hand backhand videos. How important is the scapular motion to the biomechanics of the one hand backhand. ???

Shoulder Joint Motions. See shoulder abduction at 37 seconds.
 
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IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
That is one of the best videos I've seen.

It shows chest press and the scapular position leading up to impact. On the take back, Guga rotates his uppermost body back and especially moves his scapula (shoulder blade) forward on the side of his chest for strong backhands. He moves his shoulder blade forward so that his chin gets behind his shoulder. See backhand close-ups in video.

Picture from your earlier post. You can see the shoulder blade position and his extreme positioning by the chin-shoulder position.


Demo. If you place your straight arm across your chest, upper arm pressed to chest, you will get a certain angle limited by the chest contact. Looking down at my forearm - shoulder blade in usual position - my straight arm-to-chest angle looks about 45 degrees to my chest, limited by the chest press. If you then move your shoulder blade forward, the forearm can move closer to the chest while still being limited by pressing the chest. In other words, the angle of the straight arm to the shoulder girdle gets smaller, in videos, the forearm is seen to get closer to the chest. If you then pull the shoulder blade back, it moves the elbow & forearm forward. This shoulder blade motion could add to rotation speed and racket head speed. ??

At 4:12, watch Guga's back at shoulder area to get an idea of when the shoulder blade moves to his back. The shoulder blade seems way forward and then back to neutral before impact. ? Using shoulder blade motion may be unusual for most players, so be aware of stresses to your body.

Moving the shoulder blade back would also use the chest press to move the upper arm forward to impact. Shoulder blade motion is an interesting thing to look for in one hand backhand videos. How important is the scapular motion to the biomechanics of the one hand backhand. ???
I wonder if/how much Guga uses his off hand to get the racket into that extreme ready position, with his shoulder under his chin? When I try it at home, it feels like I can pull the racket (and my right arm) back further by using my off hand, versus just letting the off hand come along for the ride while I position the racket with my right hand...
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
I wonder if/how much Guga uses his off hand to get the racket into that extreme ready position, with his shoulder under his chin? When I try it at home, it feels like I can pull the racket (and my right arm) back further by using my off hand, versus just letting the off hand come along for the ride while I position the racket with my right hand...
When I tried your off hand observation, I felt what you mean.

It seems that your observation is possibly part of the technique. ? Your picture of Guga shows his shoulder blade is at maximum forward position, abducted, on the side of his body and his off hand is likely still on the racket, not visible in that picture and is racket head still high? We could look for timing of the maximum positions of the shoulder blade in high speed videos and whether the off hand is still on the racket. ?

If I reach forward of my body with my straight right arm the shoulder blade abducts to reach and may make things for this motion easier. ?

I'm sure that my shoulder blade has never gone forward as much as Guga's picture shows, so I'm going to approach that motion in little steps.
 
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Based on what I’ve been taught, my coach says that the energy is stored up in the arm and is released when the non dominant hand releases the racket and rather than what most people think, the racket creates more topspin rather than power, most of the power comes from the unit turn and the hips
 
Yes, gravity brings down the racket first with the c shaped swing however, the energy built up is used to strike up on the ball or brush up depending on how you view it.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Based on what I’ve been taught, my coach says that the energy is stored up in the arm and is released when the non dominant hand releases the racket and rather than what most people think, the racket creates more topspin rather than power, most of the power comes from the unit turn and the hips
How is energy stored up in the arm? Stretching muscles?

Energy can be stored as potential energy by raising a mass higher in gravity. The cases that I looked at, for example, of raising the racket high, did not seem to store much energy that way. You can get an idea of how much speed can be contributed to the arm by raising the arm and letting it drop freely from a height. Take a video of your arm freely falling and measure its speed at the bottom. A high starting point should add speed but I don't think it will be a large % of the final speed. Needs a better calculation or experiment. Measure or simulate speed from falling in comparison to total speed at impact.

Energy can be stored as potential energy by storing energy elastically in the muscle's sarcomere cells, using a special giant molecule called Titin. Understanding of Titin is the stubject of intense current research, a hot & interesting topic. Muscle stretching occurs in motions and I believe the trunk/spine stores a significant amount of energy using the Stretch Shorten Cycle. This elastic energy storage is similar to how a sling shot stores energy. Other muscles can also be stretched for other motions, such as the shoulder joint motions using the lat muscle.

Muscles are also applying forces & energy directly by their 'active' shortening using Actin & Myosin.

It looks as if the arm is mostly straight so elbow action is not so important and the motion of the forearm comes mostly from uppermost body turn and muscles that move the shoulder joint plus others. See high speed videos.

Energy can be stored in the arm in the form of kinetic energy as the mass of the arm and racket increases velocity during the stroke.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Yes, gravity brings down the racket first with the c shaped swing however, the energy built up is used to strike up on the ball or brush up depending on how you view it.
Several videos have been shown and discussed that indicate that the best backhands are not using a "C" shaped swing. You should see a 'lazy L' shaped swing, straight down then forward. See Justine Henin swing path in post #190. But always look at the videos to make sure words describe what the ATP or WTA players are doing and what % of players are doing that technique.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Compare strokes frame-by-frame on Youtube using the comma & period keys for single frame. Always select Youtube videos by holding down the Alt KEY and Left mouse click. (otherwise video starts playing)

Stop on impact on two or three videos. Compare similar positions of the racket during the stroke. Best to select similar camera angles if possibly. Camera angles are similar for Henin :31, Gasquet 1:39 and Wawrinka 2:50.

1HBH Justine Henin 0:31 & 1:46
1HBH Richard Gasquet at 1:39
1HBH Stan Wawrinka at 2:50
 
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IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
Compare strokes frame-by-frame on Youtube using the comma & period keys for single frame. Always select Youtube videos by holding down the Alt KEY and Left mouse click. ( otherwise video starts playing)

Stop on impact on two or three videos. Compare similar positions of the racket during the stroke. Best to select similar camera angles if possibly.

1HBH Justine Henin 0:31 & 1:46
1HBH Richard Gasquet at 1:39
1HBH Stan Wawrinka at 2:50
I haven't studied Kohl's 1HBH much, but that angle at 2:06 makes it look like he's in the non-chest press category...
 
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