One Hand Backhand - Waht Force to Start Forward Swing?

[Chas Tennis]

I haven't studied Kohl's 1HBH much, but that angle at 2:06 makes it look like he's in the non-chest press category...

I can't tell on that backhand. That is a warm up or practice shot. Chest press is the initial aceleration, it does not have to continue through impact.

Not clear for Kolhschreiber. Federer has bent elbow. K's is straight and arm higher = more hand speed. Kolschreiber's scapula is well forward and he pulls it back - that works with chest press for some upper arm movement. The still heads help you see the rotation axis of the uppermost body. At some point the rotation axis switches to, or in addition to, the shoulder joint. ?? But I don't see a clear, crisp chest press - upper arm moving with uppermost body turn - as I often do with Gasquet, Justine Henin and Wawrinka when they hit their best pace. Maybe/maybe not..?...

 

[Fintft]

Without reading all of that: are you hinging from the shoulder with a locked ellbow?

 

[tennis tom]

Without reading all of that: are you hinging from the shoulder with a locked ellbow?

WOW! What a thread--that's the $64 question, or more like $64,000--that's what I would charge to teach that--how much is having Don Budge's BH worth!? How much have all the great 1HBH'ers made off their BH's? Here's my 2cents or $2,000 worth of a quick tip--the above ^--It all starts in the shoulder joint--the biggest muscle in the kinetic chain. He calls it "hinging", I term it "cocking" the shoulder joint. It starts with the shoulder against the side of the face--because that's as far as it can go for the maximum range of motion (otherwise your shoulder would be inside your mouth). If you don't start with that you won't have any power, just arm(ing) it. This might also be referred to as "the big shoulder turn".

Good luck with that--now hit a million practice balls. I haven't read any of the other posts past the first page and the above, so others have probably mentioned it too.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Without reading all of that: are you hinging from the shoulder with a locked ellbow?

No.

The initial acceleration avoids using the shoulder joint as the uppermost body turns and its acceleration causes the upper arm to be pressed by the chest. Later, before impact, the shoulder joint may move the upper arm off the chest. In other words, it is a two phase forward stroke.

I finally understood that when I posted #51. The next posts explain and illustrate especially using videos of Gasquet, Justine Henin and Wawrinka.

For the different technique of using mostly the shoulder joint, see videos of F. Lopez in this thread. Federer also.

 

[Fintft]

No.

The initial acceleration avoids using the shoulder joint as the uppermost body turns and its acceleration causes the upper arm to be pressed by the chest. Later, before impact, the shoulder joint may move the upper arm off the chest. In other words, it is a two phase forward stroke.

I finally understood that when I posted #51. The next posts explain and illustrate especially using videos of Gasquet, Justine Henin and Wawrinka.

For the different technique of using mostly the shoulder joint, see videos of F. Lopez in this thread. Federer also.

I've been thinking about your post as I've also practiced a bit my 1H BH at a school wall.

Today I dug a bit through your posts here and links (most of the links don't work, such as the one in #51 about Hawaiwam life or the ones in your first post about Wawrinka).

You also confuse me at times with your terminology lol, but today I understood some of the things you say, translating them in more traditional terms, in my simple mind.

Botto line:

Wawrinka hits a great BH probably the best. Gasquet hits a great one as well.

Here is a vid that works explaining Wawrinka's BH:

Please pay attention to:

a) My earlier point, shown here around min 13 about elbow extension at contact and on the follow through.
b) Your "arm pressed by the chest" is just another way of saying proper preparation, unit turn, showing a bit of your back towards the net, isn't it?
c) The main difference between Wawrinka and others (such as Gasquet) is that Wawrinka opens up his left hip after the shot, say at min 15, whereas more clasical 1H BH stay sideways. Matter of preference if you ask me.

Make sure that you prepare properly and have an extended ellbow at contact, plus proper follow through and you'll get your power.

Are you getting more power this way?
And what is your level?

Best!

 

[Chas Tennis]

I've been thinking about your post as I've also practiced a bit my 1H BH at a school wall.

Today I dug a bit through your posts here and links (most of the links don't work, such as the one in #51 about Hawaiwam life or the ones in your first post about Wawrinka).

You also confuse me at times with your terminology lol, but today I understood some of the things you say, translating them in more traditional terms, in my simple mind.

Botto line:

Wawrinka hits a great BH probably the best. Gasquet hits a great one as well.

Here is a vid that works explaining Wawrinka's BH:

Please pay attention to:

a) My earlier point, shown here around min 13 about elbow extension at contact and on the follow through.
b) Your "arm pressed by the chest" is just another way of saying proper preparation, unit turn, showing a bit of your back towards the net, isn't it?
c) The main difference between Wawrinka and others (such as Gasquet) is that Wawrinka opens up his left hip after the shot, say at min 15, whereas more clasical 1H BH stay sideways. Matter of preference if you ask me.

Make sure that you prepare properly and have an extended ellbow at contact, plus proper follow through and you'll get your power.

Are you getting more power this way?
And what is your level?

Best!

I have made my best explanations with illustrations in earlier posts. I did that in posts after post #51. I have repeated in many posts but the basic details are in earlier posts after #51.

The idea is to initially use the accelerating turn of your uppermost body and not to use your shoulder joint muscles - two phases. Compare Justine Henin, Gasquet and Wawrinka vs F. Lopez. I find the video observation of the upper arm pressed to the chest and moving in sync with it to be an important checkpoint for most strong one hand backhands.

My backhand power went way up when I simply started turning with more acceleration of my uppermost body. It is more difficult to get a solid and repetitive chest press over an effective range of uppermost body turn. I get a little chest press, it varies, but videos don't show the solid contact is long enough. It seems that the old habits of bending the elbow and timing impact with the shoulder joint are hard to change for me. I believe the chest press is what I did for some reason spontaneously many years ago as discused in post #1. On those few backhands, I was always running to the left & forward for a short backhand set-up during a match. I knew beforehand that I could hit pace.

I last played USTA as 4.0 and played only doubles.

 

[polksio]

The purpose of the high takeback for a fairly large loop is to generate speed in dropping the racquet from a higher point.

A closed stance allows the racquet to travel a further distance before striking the ball, and you need this full distance to optimally finish the swing [full arm extension, swing from low to high].

While the swing is initially powered by an partial uncoiling of the hips/shoulders, stopping abruptly lets the arm pivot away from the body at the shoulder joint, so that shoulders and hips do not further uncoil until after contact.

Forget about the specific muscles involved - the key is going to be getting the body weight moving forward and to the side by pushing off the back foot and stepping into the ball with a closed stance.
This is what you are now missing, and explains how moving in on balls in the past led to that forward weight transfer that allowed you more power.


The contact point of a one hand backhand is considerably forward than that of a forehand or a 2HBH - and the stroke mechanics are different.
Therefore our brain/eyes have to develop a separate distance to the contact point to a 1HBH than for a forehand or 2HBH.
I really think this is one of the principle reasons many struggle with a 1HBH.
The initiation of their swing is too late on balls hit to them with any degree of pace.
To train the brain/eyes body I recommend hitting nothing but backhands for several days until the timing is down.
This can be started on a backboard.
Access to a ball machine is great as the next step, starting with easy to hit balls, and turning up the pace/topsin each time you fill the container. Methodically you can build up your stroke rather than the random speeds/spin from a casual hitting partner.

No kidding - today someone at the courts asked me how long it took me to master the 1HBH. I told them at least 3-4 lifetimes, because I certainly have not come close in this lifetime.

Theres no foreward movement is there? The graphic that tracks the rackets positions is just a circle so roger must strictly pin on himself to generate that pathotherwise the racket path would be an oval or something idk but its a circle

 

[Chas Tennis]

Theres no foreward movement is there? The graphic that tracks the rackets positions is just a circle so roger must strictly pin on himself to generate that pathotherwise the racket path would be an oval or something idk but its a circle

The skeletal display shows Federer's upper arm bone, humerus. separating from his chest earlier than for a chest press technique. Federer uses a different technique for initial forward acceleration. Federer is more like F. Lopez in this regard. This difference has been discussed and illustrated in the posts after #51.

Compare on this post frame-to-frame, one video above the other. To single frame on Vimeo, hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS. First, select video and go to frame closest to impact. Then step back frame-by-frame and compare the closest racket postions for the forward swing. There are several Gasquet drives to select from.

Gasquet has a chest press technique where his upper arm is close to his chest and the uppermost body and upper arm are seen to move together. In contrast, F. Lopez has a technique where his upper arm separates from the chest earlier. Compare the upper arms and how close they are to the chests.

Study accelerations, uppermost body turn and shoulder joint motions in high speed videos.

Identical camera angles and two right handers would make a better comparison.

 

[Thiem's 1HB]

One Hand Backhand - What Force to Start Forward Swing?

I have just been watching great one-hand backhands at the Madrid Open. Including excellent slow motion that can be replayed in even slower motion or single frame with my DVR.

Often when I try to swing forward for a one hand backhand the stroke is very weak in the initial acceleration, especially if I'm rushed. The ball contact is extremely late on heavy pace and often the ball goes off at an angle and into the ground.

On very rare occasions in the past, when I was hitting better pace 1HBHs, if I had a set up on the backhand side and ran forward for the ball I could hit a monster TP backhand with confidence. Not for some years now....... So I know that heavy pace backhands are possible. I am wondering where that stroke came from. ?

This question deals with only that time when the one hand backhand backswing is just completed and the the racket is starting to accelerate.

Biomechanical issues -

1) Shoulders orientation, back at about 45°(?) to the baseline, etc., and also the angle of the arm to the shoulder to start the forward swing- the upper arm is out from the body. Why are these angles used and their purpose in accelerating the upper arm?

2) Why does the racket go back to well above the head? Why is the first part of the stroke downward?

3) Does the lat work on the upper arm. How? Is that why the upper arm is always raised out from the body in high level backhands - so that it can shorten and move the upper arm?

4) Effect of body turning to initially propel the shoulder & arm forward. ?

5) Which muscles contribute to downward & forward arm & racket motion? Which contribute to racket head speed and in what degree: lat, rear delt, others? The racket and arm seem to accelerate strongly downward at first picking up speed and then swing to a more forward direction for impact.

6) How is the stretch-shortening cycle at work in the 1hbh? Especially for the initial upper arm motion.


For illustrations, see the one hand backhands at end of the take back and ready for the forward swing.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ill...8EJj54APhh4CgBQ&ved=0CEsQsAQ&biw=1334&bih=702

Some especially good illustrations of just before the forward swing are on tennis.about.com , strokes #5,6,7.
http://tennis.about.com/od/playersm...e-pro-one-handed-topspin-backhand-grips_6.htm

Slow motion videos on the 1HBH including frames showing the start of the one hand backhand. Racket high, player looking over shoulder, shoulders turned past perpendicular to the baseline, second hand still on racket - the initial position. What are the details of how the racket accelerates from there?

Roger Federer and Justine Henin Topspin backhands

YOUTUBE ACCOUNT CLOSED

Roger Federer backhands shot with slow motion

Roger Federer's topspin backhand 360 degree breakdown 2.0

Federer Wawrinka and more Top spin BH part I: The preparation

Federer, Wawrinka and more top spin BH part II: The Stroke phase

Richard Gasquet - Slow Motion Top Spin Backhands in HD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuBRallEByc

Your biggest problem is that you over analyse everything to an absurd degree. Tennis simply isn't learned like this. Looking at your recent posts, even 6 years after your original post, you're still over analyzing everything and in all likelihood, wasted 6 years that could have been used for real development.

 

[Dragy]

Your biggest problem is that you over analyse everything to an absurd degree. Tennis simply isn't learned like this. Looking at your recent posts, even 6 years after your original post, you're still over analyzing everything and in all likelihood, wasted 6 years that could have been used for real development.

You are right, but you miss some reality. I think most of us rec players haven’t wasted those years, as there’s been no factual opportunity to heavily practice and develop. Not enough spare time, funding and body resource. Meanwhile, analyzing, reading, posting is much easier accommodated into life regiment. And if it’s fun to go through, why not?
But again, I agree, being on court, practicing and getting better is greatest tennis venture possible for non-pro.

 

[Thiem's 1HB]

You are right, but you miss some reality. I think most of us rec players haven’t wasted those years, as there’s been no factual opportunity to heavily practice and develop. Not enough spare time, funding and body resource. Meanwhile, analyzing, reading, posting is much easier accommodated into life regiment. And if it’s fun to go through, why not?
But again, I agree, being on court, practicing and getting better is greatest tennis venture possible for non-pro.

The reason why not is because these are fundamentally the completely the wrong things to focus on and isn't how people learn. Do you think Wawrinka, Thiem, Gasquet etc learned their BHs by spending their time reading, analyzing and posting about it?

 

[Dragy]

The reason why not is because these are fundamentally the completely the wrong things to focus on and isn't how people learn. Do you think Wawrinka, Thiem, Gasquet etc learned their BHs by spending their time reading, analyzing and posting about it?

No. But they were actually learning/developing, not researching Chas believes he's researching, and learning/playing just occasionally.

 

[Sir Weed]

You are right, but you miss some reality. I think most of us rec players haven’t wasted those years, as there’s been no factual opportunity to heavily practice and develop. Not enough spare time, funding and body resource. Meanwhile, analyzing, reading, posting is much easier accommodated into life regiment. And if it’s fun to go through, why not?
But again, I agree, being on court, practicing and getting better is greatest tennis venture possible for non-pro.

IMO, there's a layer missing between the biomechanics talk/knowledge and the learner.
That layer consists of games, excercises, progressions that address or isolate a specific topic/context.
It would be interesting to see a mechanics geek like Chas populate this layer with stuff based on his knowledge that can be applied on court. In a kids tennis situation for example.

 

[Thiem's 1HB]

No. But they were actually learning/developing, not researching Chas believes he's researching, and learning/playing just occasionally.

All dubious theory and no action? Right. Gotcha.

Tennis is a 'doing' game - particularly the 1HB as it requires good timing and spacing which develops through doing. It's also a stroke that has been around since the dawn of time and doesn't this level of crazy overanalysis.

 

[tennis tom]

You have to practice doing the right thing--or, you get good at doing it wrong.

 

[Dragy]

You have to practice doing the right thing--or, you get good at doing it wrong.

Even worse, if you cannot replicate and succeed with what you deem correct and efficient, it’s most likely incorrect and inefficient.

 

[tennis tom]

Are you working on a one or two-handed BH?

 

[tennisbike]

I encourage exploration and learning in general. By itself, is not enough but is part of a journey. Though after 2014, it has been about proofing and defending one idea. I do wish there are more ideas to discuss here.
Currently I am thinking about the general idea of model tennis strokes, forehand, backhand and serves, with just racket motion which means reducing the whole thing just hand motion, or if you leave hand passive shoulder motion. My current question is whether we should direct the force/motion toward the target or toward the ball, i.e. contact point.

It is unfortunate that the motion, mechanics or kinematics, of the racket, or the variation of it, is not easily found. There are study of baseball bat swing and golf club swing, but not so much on tennis racket swing. Little discussion on The Physics and Technology of Tennis. I thought this stuff should be the fundamentals of tennis.

 

[tennis tom]

My current question is whether we should direct the force/motion toward the target or toward the ball, i.e. contact point.

Toward the ball--if you mishit the ball, it won't reach your target--WATCH THE BALL--the court (target) is in your head.

It is unfortunate that the motion, mechanics or kinematics, of the racket, or the variation of it, is not easily found.

They can be found by watching videos of any player with a good BH, they're all fundamentally the same. Watch RFed, Wawrinka, Pete, et.al, pick anyone you please and do what they do.

Little discussion on The Physics and Technology of Tennis. I thought this stuff should be the fundamentals of tennis.

You can't learn tennis from a book, unless you're an Einstein, then maybe, don't know if he played tennis. Reading about it will confirm what you have discovered to be right, hopefully having been put on the right track by a coach who knows how to teach stroke technique (they are few and far between--you won't get this in a clinic).

*Eastern BH grip.
*Thumb behind the grip for support a la' Budge.
*Racket head NOT back--but UP high above and behind the head for the beginning of the full range of motion.
*Shoulder "cocked" also called the "big shoulder turn"--that's where the power starts--the kinetic chain.

Now hit a million practice balls--trial and error--you'll know it when it feels right and gravity does the work for you.

Watch any one great BH fifty times in slow motion--you don't need any physics books, plenty of coaching videos out there if needed. You can't learn tennis from a book--it's trial and error until it feels right and you have the ah-ha moment--then good luck trying to do it on-the-run against an opponent trying to beat your brains out taking your time away.

 

[IowaGuy]

Your biggest problem is that you over analyse everything to an absurd degree. Tennis simply isn't learned like this. Looking at your recent posts, even 6 years after your original post, you're still over analyzing everything and in all likelihood, wasted 6 years that could have been used for real development.

Chas has said in other posts that he is in his mid-70's, so probably enjoys the analysis at this stage of life...

 

[IowaGuy]

The reason why not is because these are fundamentally the completely the wrong things to focus on and isn't how people learn. Do you think Wawrinka, Thiem, Gasquet etc learned their BHs by spending their time reading, analyzing and posting about it?

No, but their coaches probably had a pretty good grasp on the biomechanics of the shots they were being taught

 

[Dragy]

*Thumb behind the grip for support a la' Budge.

WAT?

 

[Thiem's 1HB]

Chas has said in other posts that he is in his mid-70's, so probably enjoys the analysis at this stage of life...

That makes more sense. It doesn't help anyone though - it just side tracks beginners or worse.

 

[tennis tom]

That makes more sense. It doesn't help anyone though - it just side tracks beginners or worse.

Yup!--paralysis by analysis.

 

[tennis tom]

WAT?

There have been many citations for placing the thumb behind the racket's grip on the flat for supporting the Eastern BH grip--the palm of the hand gives that support on the FH grip. I'm pretty sure Tilden has said that in one of his books too and maybe Harry Hoppman. I've had a coach teach me that too.

 

[Dragy]

There have been many citations for placing the thumb behind the racket's grip on the flat for supporting the Eastern BH grip--the palm of the hand gives that support on the FH grip. I'm pretty sure Tilden has said that in one of his books too and maybe Harry Hoppman. I've had a coach teach me that too.

Well, despite all citation, no single model 1HBH player uses such a grip.

 

[itsstephenyo]

Thumb on the racquet and not wrapped around? Like you're giving a thumbs up sign?

That'd be akin to extending your pointer finger along the length of the grip on forehands. I just don't see how that could be beneficial.

 

[Sir Weed]

The force to start the forward swing with the one handed backhand is to realize to better switch to a two handed backhand.

 

[Injured Again]

That'd be akin to extending your pointer finger along the length of the grip on forehands. I just don't see how that could be beneficial.

You mean like Grand Slam winner Francoise Durr?

Redirect Notice

images.app.goo.gl

She used the same technique on her backhand too!

Redirect Notice

images.app.goo.gl

 

[itsstephenyo]

I guess if you wanna go back to 1967 and hit like that, sure!

 

[tennis tom]

Thumb on the racquet and not wrapped around? Like you're giving a thumbs up sign?

That'd be akin to extending your pointer finger along the length of the grip on forehands. I just don't see how that could be beneficial.

Not at all. The thumb behind on the BH supports the shot from behind accomplishing what the palm does for the FH. The thumb must be VERY FIRM against the flat of the grip otherwise it will slip. This takes some practice to get used to. Don Budge, who probably no one has heard of around here unless they're going on 100 did this--THE GRAND SLAM was named after him since he was the first to win ALL four of the majors--so he was not a shabby player and modern players would die to have his BH. Trying to describe this over the internet is why you can't learn to play tennis from a book. Play around with it--put your thumb firmly behind the flat on the BH grip.

Don Budge - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Injured Again]

I guess if you wanna go back to 1967 and hit like that, sure!

Just goes to show that if you have the hand-eye coordination, athletic talent, and work ethic, you can have incredibly non-standard technique and be a very high level player. I still don't know to this day how she managed to avoid a wrist injury with her backhand.

 

[itsstephenyo]

I agree with that. I think Dolgopolov is a good representation of excellent talent with non-standard technique.

However, people in 1967 weren't hitting the ball nearly as hard as we are today. I know that's a cliche answer, but it's true. There's no way hitting a topspin backhand with your thumb up against the grip would be possible with today's game. If everything was sliced and volleyed like back then, maybe. Hitting a crosscourt pass with your thumb up? That's a torn ligament waiting to happen.

 

[tennis tom]

I agree with that. I think Dolgopolov is a good representation of excellent talent with non-standard technique.

However, people in 1967 weren't hitting the ball nearly as hard as we are today. I know that's a cliche answer, but it's true. There's no way hitting a topspin backhand with your thumb up against the grip would be possible with today's game. If everything was sliced and volleyed like back then, maybe. Hitting a crosscourt pass with your thumb up? That's a torn ligament waiting to happen.

Nope! You don't get it! Talking about Eastern BH grip. They were hitting the ball just as hard but with wood rackets. Bill Tilden hit 150 mph serves in the 1930's.

 

[therecanbeonlyone]

I used the thumbs up grip on my 1hbh as a kid. My style then was mostly serve and volley/chip and charge. I think I needed that to give support. After taking a decade off and coming back to the game, I switched my grip to a more modern grip and everything improved. I love my backhand now and have tons of variety.

 

[itsstephenyo]

If you really believe guys in the 1930s with wooden racquets were hitting 150mph serves, then you'd probably also say he was hitting 100mph forehands with that extended finger grip.

There's 0 evidence of his 163 mph serve, just like there are 0 players on the tour now that hit with an extended thumb on their 1 handed backhands. Face it, it may have worked 90 years ago, but it just doesn't work with the modern game.

 

[Dragy]

The whole idea of using thumb straightened along a bevel for stability/whatever comes from wrong understanding of the stroke techniques. It works for those who arms the swing, pushing racquet forward through contact.
Meanwhile good techniques for 1HBH relies on swinging the racquet, where arm is a pulling “rope” rather than pushing lever. As racquet takes off into pendulum swing and picks up speed, torso rotates pulling the shoulder “inside” the swing circle radius, which speeds up arm and racquet circular swing. In the meantime, external shoulder rotation takes place to rotate racquet head up and provide stringbed orientation. That’s it. Once again, no forward push to enhance with thumb or anything. Swing, pull and rotate.

Occasionally players get caught unprepared and have to push a racquet onto the ball. For such situations extra support could help, but those are not your best pick anyway.

 

[1HBHfanatic]

-the thumb behind the grip was also due to the bigger grip sizes of the bygone era!!
-now a days the grip is smaller and the hand if wrapped around the handle more,
-i also agree that the force and style of grips of todays game have pushed that "old technique", out the way

 

[tennis tom]

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/what-does-don-budges-backhand-grip-look-like.117197/

 

[tennis tom]

Great backhands[edit]
The player long considered to have had the best backhand of all time, amateur and professional champion Don Budge,[14] had a very powerful one-handed stroke in the 1930s and '40s that imparted topspin onto the ball. He used an Eastern grip, and some pictures show his thumb extended along the side of the racquet for greater support.

 

[Chas Tennis]

The whole idea of using thumb straightened along a bevel for stability/whatever comes from wrong understanding of the stroke techniques. It works for those who arms the swing, pushing racquet forward through contact.
Meanwhile good techniques for 1HBH relies on swinging the racquet, where arm is a pulling “rope” rather than pushing lever. As racquet takes off into pendulum swing and picks up speed, torso rotates pulling the shoulder “inside” the swing circle radius, which speeds up arm and racquet circular swing. In the meantime, external shoulder rotation takes place to rotate racquet head up and provide stringbed orientation. That’s it. Once again, no forward push to enhance with thumb or anything. Swing, pull and rotate.

Occasionally players get caught unprepared and have to push a racquet onto the ball. For such situations extra support could help, but those are not your best pick anyway.

If the uppermost body rotates with acceleration and the upper arm is left to move as it will, the inertia of the upper arm and racket will cause the chest to contact on the upper arm. Pulling forces from the musculature on the back side of the shoulder area are present too. Recently, we've also posted on the motion of the scapula ('looking over the shoulder', see posts) and how that also might be adding to racket head speed.

Evidence for the 'chest press' point of view:

1. Demo - hold a small weight (~ 1 lb or 1/2 Kg) in your hand, arm across your chest touching chest, turn the uppermost body with acceleration and observe and feel the chest press on the upper arm.

2. High speed videos were shown and discussed in posts starting with post #51.

If you have another point of view, please quote my post and the video evidence to support your view.

I listened carefully to what you said in your posts when we argued about "pulling" and "pushing". It is both pulling and pushing, but those two words don't describe the full details of the motion which is the topic of this thread.

For my efforts, moving the shoulder blade forward, as discussed, and getting the feeling of stretching (= 'pulling') behind my shoulder before starting forward feels like it is an important plus. We showed and discussed Kuerten and others that display the shoulder blade forward.

On-topic posts with video evidence would be interesting.

 

[Dragy]

If the uppermost body rotates with acceleration and the upper arm is left to move as it will, the inertia of the upper arm and racket will cause the chest to contact on the upper arm. Pulling forces from the musculature on the back side of the shoulder area is present too. Recently, we've also posted on the motion of the scapula (looking over the shoulder, see posts) and how that also might be adding to racket head speed.

Evidence for the 'chest press' point of view:

1. Demo - hold a small weight (~ 1 lb or 1/2 Kg) in your hand, arm across your chest touching chest, turn the uppermost body with acceleration and observe and feel the chest press on the upper arm.

2. High speed videos were shown and discussed in posts starting with post #51.

If you have another point of view, please quote my post and the video evidence to support your view.

I listened carefully to what you said in your posts when we argued about "pulling" and "pushing". It is both pulling and pushing, but those two words don't describe the full details of the motion which is the topic of this thread.

For my efforts, moving the shoulder blade forward, as discussed, and getting the feeling of stretching (= 'pulling') behind my shoulder before starting forward feels like it is an important plus. We showed and discussed Kuerten and others that display the shoulder blade forward.

On-topic posts with video evidence would be interesting.

No there’s no significant “chest press” in high-level 1HBH techniques, evidently. Major pull comes from passive arm-shoulder connection as torso rotates moving the hinge “more inside” the swing circle. Not from back muscle contraction.

 

[ionlyplaysquash]

I don't use the chest press on the backhand. I actually use a bent arm sometimes to avoid it - the chest press just feels wrong. There don't seem to be any downsides to this because my backhand is my most consistent ground-stroke if my footwork is at the office that day. The starting force would have to be the step forward with whichever leg I step with last, which then opens up the hips, etc.

Whenever I get stability issues, I just make sure I have my legs behind me (even on shots moving backwards) and my eyes are glued to the ball.

Here's a video with horrible quality of me trying out a new backhand with a huge backswing, but the mechanics on the forward swing should be the same as usual and you can see my upper arm doesn't really ever go up against my chest:

 

[pencilcheck]

It is still your core, your glute, it is not chest press, although maybe a tiny bit but still mostly glute

 

[Chas Tennis]

I don't use the chest press on the backhand. I actually use a bent arm sometimes to avoid it - the chest press just feels wrong. There don't seem to be any downsides to this because my backhand is my most consistent ground-stroke if my footwork is at the office that day. The starting force would have to be the step forward with whichever leg I step with last, which then opens up the hips, etc.

Whenever I get stability issues, I just make sure I have my legs behind me (even on shots moving backwards) and my eyes are glued to the ball.

Here's a video with horrible quality of me trying out a new backhand with a huge backswing, but the mechanics on the forward swing should be the same as usual and you can see my upper arm doesn't really ever go up against my chest:

Strong looking backhand. Can you get a clear high speed video, 240 fps?

You have very rapid uppermost body turn (shoulders are seen to move).

Do you exercise so that your left shoulder is stronger than normal?

Read post #51 and then the many posts that discuss chest press and bringing the racket down. Later the shoulder blade coming forward seems to make be a part of the high level backhand also, see Kuerten. It's the technique of Wawrinka, Justine Henin and Gasquet and others vs the technique of F. Lopez and Federer.

I did not invent this backhand technique but observed it in videos as shown and discussed in earlier posts.

My efforts on the stroke are not very good on the chest press itself. I did notice that my old backhand feels better to let my elbow bend on the forward swing, it felt more 'natural. I fight the bent elbow. But bent elbow is not what is seen in the high speed videos of the majority of high level backhands. My bent elbow sounds a bit like your bent elbow. ?

 

[itsstephenyo]

Great backhands[edit]
The player long considered to have had the best backhand of all time, amateur and professional champion Don Budge,[14] had a very powerful one-handed stroke in the 1930s and '40s that imparted topspin onto the ball. He used an Eastern grip, and some pictures show his thumb extended along the side of the racquet for greater support.

You keep referencing one guy from 90 years ago. Stop.

Put Don Budge and his extended thumb in a backhand rally today against Thiem, Wawrinka, Shapovalov, Federer, Gasquet, or Dimitrov, and Budge loses that battle every time.

I've no doubts it worked 90 years ago. But if you were to coach a kid today, right now, are you going to teach him to hold the racquet with his thumb extended on backhands and his pointer finger extended on forehands? If you say yes, you're just a troll.

 

[ionlyplaysquash]

Strong looking backhand. Can you get a clear high speed video, 240 fps?

You have very rapid uppermost body turn (shoulders are seen to move).

Do you exercise so that your left shoulder is stronger than normal?

Read post #51 and then the many posts that discuss chest press and bringing the racket down. Later the shoulder blade coming forward seems to make be a part of the high level backhand also, see Kuerten. It's the technique of Wawrinka, Justine Henin and Gasquet and others vs the technique of F. Lopez and Federer.

I did not invent this backhand technique but observed it in videos as shown and discussed in earlier posts.

My efforts on the stroke are not very good on the chest press itself. I did notice that my old backhand feels better to let my elbow bend on the forward swing, it felt more 'natural. I fight the bent elbow. But bent elbow is not what is seen in the high speed videos of the majority of high level backhands. My bent elbow sounds a bit like your bent elbow. ?

Cheers! Wish I did, but I've never had high speed video of myself. But I did some digging and found a clearer version of the video above. Youtube keeps compressing videos so here it is on Imgur:

Backhand ball toss feed

No, I don't exercise the shoulders, but I've used a fairly heavy racquet (~390 g) for a couple years so I've probably adapted to it in ways I'm unaware of. It seems like for me I don't really allow my elbow to bend, but instead it stays at a pretty constant angle throughout the swing. This is pretty weird because I actually have a slightly hyper-flexible elbow. It's supposedly bad technique to bend the elbow and it increases chance of injury, but I've yet to run into this problem.

A lot of the characteristics of high-level backhands I don't have at all. I've never actually thought about the role of the shoulder in the stroke, but whenever I want to really rocket the ball, I feel this really satisfying stretch on the left side of my lower back (obliques??) which kind of transitions into a stretch between my left scapula and spine (would be right side for a righty, presumably). Wish I could describe it better but I don't know enough anatomy. I imagine this indicates the kinetic chain.

Despite lack of compatibility in my technique with the pros, my backhand is my most reliable stroke by far and when I was learning the shot, I was told to focus on keeping my eye on the ball (of course), initiating both the backswing and the forward swing with the feet, and keeping my weight forward. All in all, my stroke personally all starts with the legs in every aspect; my shoulders never wind/unwind before my hips do, and the racquet is what I feel like is the last thing to move both in the backswing and the forward swing. Whatever works!

Edit: Turns out my elbow straightens out a bit when I start my forward swing without ever getting completely straight. Then it stays at the same angle all through the follow-through. Not sure why, but when I start opening up my hips, it just naturally straightens out the arm a bit? I think if I consciously try to move my arm forward instead of using the legs, it stays (more) bent. Kind of interesting

 

[Dragy]

Edit: Turns out my elbow straightens out a bit when I start my forward swing without ever getting completely straight. Then it stays at the same angle all through the follow-through. Not sure why, but when I start opening up my hips, it just naturally straightens out the arm a bit? I think if I consciously try to move my arm forward instead of using the legs, it stays (more) bent. Kind of interesting

If the swing is properly sequenced/balanced, centrifugal force makes the arm straighten, you kind of hold the swinging racquet so that it doesn’t fly away while its inertia pulls the arm against the shoulder.
Meanwhile, if you try to push your upper arm forward, it causes elbow to bend, forearm lagging behind, and you need to contract your triceps to keep arm straight.

Nice swing btw

 

[Chas Tennis]

Cheers! Wish I did, but I've never had high speed video of myself. But I did some digging and found a clearer version of the video above. Youtube keeps compressing videos so here it is on Imgur:

Backhand ball toss feed

No, I don't exercise the shoulders, but I've used a fairly heavy racquet (~390 g) for a couple years so I've probably adapted to it in ways I'm unaware of. It seems like for me I don't really allow my elbow to bend, but instead it stays at a pretty constant angle throughout the swing. This is pretty weird because I actually have a slightly hyper-flexible elbow. It's supposedly bad technique to bend the elbow and it increases chance of injury, but I've yet to run into this problem.

A lot of the characteristics of high-level backhands I don't have at all. I've never actually thought about the role of the shoulder in the stroke, but whenever I want to really rocket the ball, I feel this really satisfying stretch on the left side of my lower back (obliques??) which kind of transitions into a stretch between my left scapula and spine (would be right side for a righty, presumably). Wish I could describe it better but I don't know enough anatomy. I imagine this indicates the kinetic chain.

Despite lack of compatibility in my technique with the pros, my backhand is my most reliable stroke by far and when I was learning the shot, I was told to focus on keeping my eye on the ball (of course), initiating both the backswing and the forward swing with the feet, and keeping my weight forward. All in all, my stroke personally all starts with the legs in every aspect; my shoulders never wind/unwind before my hips do, and the racquet is what I feel like is the last thing to move both in the backswing and the forward swing. Whatever works!

Edit: Turns out my elbow straightens out a bit when I start my forward swing without ever getting completely straight. Then it stays at the same angle all through the follow-through. Not sure why, but when I start opening up my hips, it just naturally straightens out the arm a bit? I think if I consciously try to move my arm forward instead of using the legs, it stays (more) bent. Kind of interesting

I like to view single frame. Is there any way to do single frame on Imgur?

Youtube videos allow single frame using the period & comma keys. I can get some information from your original blurry video, the hip & shoulder motions. But the frame rate is too slow for details and the camera angle is not good.

I've had problems with Youtube downsizing my already low resolution high speed videos. Youtube has a list of line resolutions - if your uploaded video is below certain lines of resolution on that list it 'downsizes' the resolution to a lower line count. I would upload a 344 line video and Youtube would downgrade it to 240 lines, the lowest YT resolution. If you can save your video before uploading as a higher resolution and possibly a more compatible file type for Youtube you may not lose resolution. What frame rate did you record that video with?

I found that one of the Microsoft video programs that comes with Windows 10 has an editor that allowed my low resolution video to be saved to a higher resolution file. When I uploaded that video, the Youtube saved it at a higher resolution so that I did not lose resolution.

 

[ionlyplaysquash]

I like to view single frame. Is there any way to do single frame on Imgur?

Youtube videos allow single frame using the period & comma keys. I can get some information from your original blurry video, the hip & shoulder motions. But the frame rate is too slow for details and the camera angle is not good.

I've had problems with Youtube downsizing my already low resolution high speed videos. Youtube has a list of line resolutions - if your uploaded video is below certain lines of resolution on that list it 'downsizes' the resolution to a lower line count. I would upload a 344 line video and Youtube would downgrade it to 240 lines, the lowest YT resolution. If you can save your video before uploading as a higher resolution and possibly a more compatible file type for Youtube you may not lose resolution. What frame rate did you record that video with?

I found that one of the Microsoft video programs that comes with Windows 10 has an editor that allowed my low resolution video to be saved to a higher resolution file. When I uploaded that video, the Youtube saved it at a higher resolution so that I did not lose resolution.

Hi,
No clue what framerate. Recorded on my friend's iPhone, so likely 30 fps. I think using a different video format fixed the Youtube compression issue:

At any rate, if I could figure out why my arm is bent and whether or not straightening it out improves the stroke, then it could become even steadier. If not, then maybe certain techniques just won't work for me (and/or others!).