One Hand Backhand - Waht Force to Start Forward Swing?

[tennis tom]

Yes! "Racquet head up"--Why is it that almost ALL tennis "teachers" instruct their students to get the racket head "back"?--which their students dutifully comply with and follow-- resulting in a stroke with no future and injuries due to poor biomechanics. These self-same instructors do NOT hit the ball using their own advice--they and all other pros get the racket UP enabling the use of gravity and the relaxation of the arm muscles in the ready position.

 

[Raul_SJ]

There is not enough information to understand the comment "this is creating no space to accelerate the racket and no leverage".

It would be much easier to follow the following word description if you are watching a high speed video of the racket being brought down frame-by-frame.

How does it not follow that there is more disance to accelerate the racquet if the RH tip is pointed straight up rather than even wuth the grip or even 45 degrees or so?

Asked Simon about this.

Comments on "How To Hit Your Backhand Like Stan Wawrinka - Tennis Backhand"​

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How important is it for the racquet head tip to point straight up during the unit turn and backswing? On your forehand video we saw that some players like Fabio do not have the RH tip straight up. More like 45 degrees or so... Is there some leeway for this on the backhand as well?​

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REPLY​

Top Tennis Training - Pro Tennis Lessons​

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Absolutely, experiment with it and see what suits your swing more.​

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I’ve trained myself on the one hander with my left hand to have it like Stan but some days the timing is off so I’ll modify it slightly. A lot of it also has to do with the length of swing Good luck with the improvements​

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All the best Simon​

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The first step to the Wawrinka backhand is his early unit turn and coil with his upper body. This fast preparation creates time and ensures that Wawrinka is always ready to hit the ball out in front of his body, even if the ball bounces funny. By coiling his upper body, Wawrinka helps initiate the swing without having to move his arms independently.

Step Two

Lift the racket head above the grip.
A lot of club players will prepare for their one-handed backhand with the grip and racket head level.

This destroys their chances of creating leverage in the arm and racket but also limits the space they have to truly accelerate the racket head.

Wawrinka lifts his racket head directly above the grip as soon as he starts the swing, this creates massive leverage (which later translates into force over the ball) and gives him plenty of space to speed up the racket during the swing without having to lift his arms too high.

 

[Chas Tennis]

@Raul_SJ - Look for high speed video evidence when you read comments on tennis strokes.

Justine Henin backhand. Shows racket up. How it is brought down and then starts forward. Go full screen, see 1:06, and single frame from racket high__brought down__started forward.

I do not interpret the racket 'as having a longer distance to travel,' as the main purpose for what is happening when the racket is brought down.

My interpretation is that the racket head is being adjusted for ball height and the off arm assists ISR, the hitting arm, with its own muscles, may also contribute forces for ISR, and gravity assists too, maybe other things are going on. I have no way to know what percentage of total force, the off hand, the hitting arm's ISR muscles and gravity have contributed. ? Note that the effect of the arm doing ISR and moving down is that her hitting arm stays higher. Arm higher gives more racket head speed for given uppermost body turn or shoulder joint turn.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Thread - The Scapula on Tennis Strokes with some posts by @Curiosity.

The Scapula in Tennis Strokes

The scapula and rib cage form a joint, called the scapulothoracic joint. But this joint does not have a bony connection to the rib cage. The scapula moves around on the rib cage. The scapula repositions the shoulder joint (glenohumeral joint) which is located on the scapula. The scapula is...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

This Toly gif shows the scapular positions used by Gasquet on a heavy pace backhand, "103 MPH". Notice how to start forward his right shoulder appears shorter than his left shoulder when the scapula has moved forward around on the rib cage (scapular protraction). You can see the scapular position through his shirt as with Kuerten in the OP. Retraction then pulls the scapula toward the back for the forward swing.

Anatoly Antipin (Toly video)

To single frame on Youtube use the period & comma keys.

Justine Henin backhand.

It appears that scapular retraction can add to racket head speed when used like this. 'Chest press' can also play a part.

The right scapula protraction happens automatically if we get the racquet back fully in the backswing. Scapular retraction, especially if well-timed, is a big contributor to RH speed out into contact. Whether looking at Guga or Justine, the final motion downward of the racquet just before/into rotation is ISR (why call it pronation?) and the final articulation just up into and through contact is ESR (not supination...why call it that?). Nonetheless, fun to watch a few clips of very good and interesting backhands.

The retraction in the OHBH swing for power has this evidence: As you squeeze the shoulder-blades together, it accelerates both arms outward toward the side. It is that which causes essentially every OHBH player's off-side arm to automatically move out and up to the side in sync with what their hitting arm is doing. You can prove this to yourself by just standing in front of your computer, arms at your side: Squeeze your 'blades together with some force, then notice what your arms did.

You can also observe the scapular movements if you see a good OHBH player playing with a sweat-soaked shirt...

 

[steve s]

Push forward with the front shoulder.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Note: Using the wrist joint for racket head speed is often warned against as an injury risk. These are observations of what pro players are doing.

Not well written - look at Wawrinka video & Gasquet GIF and video. I'm trying to discuss things seen in videos, such as, uppermost body turn, arm turn, forearm-to-racket-shaft angle, etc. along with defined joint motions such as Ulnar Deviation. See the videos....

In the Wawrinka backhands, let's look at the Ulnar Deviation during the forward swing. The forearm-to-racket-shaft angle when at ~ 90 d. is easier to estimate than the UD angle. At impact the forearm-to-racket-shaft angle has increased to ~130 d. So does the UD. There's an angular change of 40 degrees in a short time. The angular speed of Ulnar Deviation appears high before impact. Look at the Wawrinka video to follow this.

Goes to video at 53 sec for impact at 55 sec. Look at other backhand drives also. To single frame on Youtube use the period & comma keys.

In the Gasquet GIF, look for the same UD sub-motion. Racket shaft appears to point at ball as it goes to impact. Look for forearm-to-racket-shaft angle of 90 degrees. Ulnar Deviation motion plus arm turn changes the direction of the racket shaft rapidly. We can see that the racket shaft direction before impact and at impact. Maybe there are other motions contributing to this change in racket shaft direction from the frame before impact to impact. ?

103 MPH backhand GIF.

Video of 103 MPH backhand with video used for the GIF. Starts at 23 sec for impact is at 37 seconds.

When joint angles change it could be the muscles (agonists for that joint motion) that move the joint. Or it could be other body motions or both together. The way the Ulnar Deviation increases in speed makes it look significant - see the Gasquet camera view. That should be both arm turning plus Ulnar Deviation, others?, that affect the racket shaft angle as observed. ?

Careful that the camera angles don't fool us. Once again, the rare camera view from above would be very good for this issue and show us the UD and arm turning together. The arm turn involves the uppermost body turning plus the shoulder joint motions. There may be other motions to make up total uppermost body turn.

(uppermost body turn - as seen by a line between the two shoulders)

Look at the Gasquet GIF and video above, look at the shaft of the racket change direction approaching impact.

Ulnar Deviation on the one hand backhand.

A poster, @peoplespeace, described that he was using Ulnar Deviation on his one hand backhand stroke.

I checked the Ulnar Deviation on the high level pro backhands that I have advocated and it is there. It shows clearly from some camera angles. I did not notice that Ulnar Deviation was so significant before I read that post and then looked at the pro videos.

Whoops again! - on my somehow missing this important joint motion in videos of one hand backhands.

Toly GIF. Watch from the time that the forearm-to-racket shaft angle is at 90 degrees to impact when that angle is a much larger angle due to Ulnar Deviation. Ulnar Deviation may result from wrist muscle forces and/or from other body motions, such as centrifugal forces of body and shoulder motions.

Kuerten backhand, video starts at 1:50. Observe when the forearm-to-racket-shaft angle is about 90 d. and then observe it to impact when that angle is considerably larger. To single frame on Youtube, stop the video and use the period & comma keys.

Observe when the forearm-to-racket-shaft angle is about 90 d. and then observe it to impact when that angle is considerably larger. To single frame on Youtube, stop the video and use the period & comma keys.

The uppermost body accelerates, turns and presses on the upper arm. The arm and racket are lagging with shoulder joint passive and not accelerating the upper arm off the chest. Later before impact, the shoulder joint is used.

These sub-motions are discussed in detail in the long backhand thread I posted. See warning on Scapular Protraction.

The latest sub-motion is ulnar deviation. A poster mentioned that he did it for his backhand. I looked at some pro videos and could see that joint motion for Gasquet and Justine Henin. I have not included that in the long thread yet. I do not know if that is an active motion of the joint or the joint angle does ulnar deviation because of other body motions, for example, by centrifugal forces. ?

Observe when the forearm-to-racket-shaft angle is about 90 d. and then observe it to impact when that angle is considerably larger. That appears to be wrist ulnar deviation.

Toly GIF.

Observe when the forearm-to-racket-shaft angle is about 90 d. and then observe it to impact when that angle is considerably larger. To single frame on Youtube, stop the video and use the period & comma keys.

 

[peoplespeace]

Note: Using the wrist joint for racket head speed is often warned against as an injury risk. These are observations of what pro players are doing.



Ulnar Deviation on the one hand backhand.

A poster, @peoplespeace, described that he was using ulnar deviation on his one hand backhand stroke.

I checked the Ulnar Deviation on the high level pro backhands that I have advocated and it is there. It shows clearly from some camera angles. I did not notice that Ulnar Deviation was so significant before I read that post and then looked at the pro videos.

Whoops again!, on my somehow missing this important joint motion in videos of one hand backhands.

Toly GIF. Watch from the time that the forearm-to-racket shaft angle is at 90 degrees to impact when that angle is much larger angle due to Ulnar Deviation. Ulnar Deviation may result from wrist muscle forces or from other body motions, such as centrifugal forces of body and shoulder motions.

Kuerten backhand, video starts at 1:50. Observe when the forearm-to-racket-shaft angle is about 90 d. and then observe it to impact when that angle is considerably larger. To single frame on Youtube, stop the video and use the period & comma keys.

Observe when the forearm-to-racket-shaft angle is about 90 d. and then observe it to impact when that angle is considerably larger. To single frame on Youtube, stop the video and use the period & comma keys.

Thank u for (finally!) giving me credit! yes ulnar deviation is very important on the ohbh. It actually a short ssc coming mostly from the centrifugal forces. And here is some info regarding the forehand that u may not be aware of: Ulnar deviation is even more importantant on the modern western and extreme semi-western fh than it is on the ohbh!

 

[Chas Tennis]

.................................. And here is some info regarding the forehand that u may not be aware of: Ulnar deviation is even more importantant on the modern western and extreme semi-western fh than it is on the ohbh!

The forehand does look similar to the backhand. Toly produced this from a Serena Williams video.

Here is video

Too bad @toly is not around on the forum any more and that we don't have some good overhead videos of the one hand backhand.

 

[peoplespeace]

The forehand does look similar to the backhand. Toly produced this from a Serena Williams video.

Too bad @toly is not around on the forum any more and that we don't have some good overhead videos of the one hand backhand.

Im not talking about wrist extension/flexion, but ulnar deviation!

 

[Chas Tennis]

Regarding Ulnar Deviation, Toly observed and measured it in 2014. See also his thread.

See Gasquet GIF or Justine Henin Youtube in post #406.

See also video

I missed it somehow for the last 7 years!

 

[Fintft]

Toly GIF. Watch from the time that the forearm-to-racket shaft angle is at 90 degrees to impact when that angle is a much larger angle due to Ulnar Deviation.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't ulnar deviation happen with a horizontal position of the hand?
If so, is Gasaquet opening the racquet face, like for a slice?

B/c for me, at impact, the 1HBH palm is vertical and afterwards I just go over the ball and finish like Henin and the hand might be opened to the sky.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't ulnar deviation happen with a horizontal position of the hand?
If so, is Gasaquet opening the racquet face, like for a slice?

B/c for me, at impact, the 1HBH palm is vertical and afterwards I just go over the ball and finish like Henin and the hand might be opened to the sky.

Go to impact at 36 sec. To single frame on Vimeo, hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS.

His racket face is tilted closed at impact. That closed tilt is typical for the forehand and one hand backhand top spin drives.

His palm is not vertical.
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Take a racket in your hand with an Eastern Backhand Grip and a relaxed neutral wrist and look at the forearm-to-racket shaft angle. Go from maximum radial deviation to maximum ulnar deviation. Last, rotate your wrist so that the racket shaft is perpendicular to the forearm. Remember the radial/ulnar deviation position for that 90 degree forearm-to-racket shaft angle when looking at the Gasquet backhands.

You can't see the wrist angles very accurately in stroke videos for estimating the angles, but the forearm-to-racket-shaft angle and its movement is much easier to see.

Position #1. Look back along Gasquet's 1HBH and at some point the forearm-to-racket shaft angle is approximately perpendicular to the forearm. The racket shaft is lagging.

Position #2. Now look at the forearm-to-racket shaft angle for impact.

That motion from #1 to #2 was mostly ulnar deviation.

Look for Positions #1 & 2. (When I click this gif it fills my laptop screen.)

Looking at the forearm-to-racket shaft angles from perpendicular (#1) to impact (#2), I'd estimate that there was significant ulnar deviation.

A possible observation to be explained, the butt cap appears to have shifted in the grip at impact - an interesting observation...103 MPH backhand.....?

Note - Poor technique may stress the wrist and cause injury.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Thiem comparison to Musetti. Top spin drive and then slice. Slice comparison starts at 46 sec. Not much uppermost body turn for the slice. To single frame on Youtube use the period & comma keys.

From this camera angle, for the sub-motions shown, Thiem & Musetti seem to have some of the sub-motions identified in this thread. Line between the two shoulders turns (uppermost body), upper arm appears in contact with or very close to chest, arm straight, racket rotated down with shaft tilting as head goes down, scapular protraction & retraction not clear enough from this camera angle.... Thiem has more of a straight elbow in the take back than most others with this technique.

Thiem's TS shot is directed more to the right than Musetti's. Unfortunately, the video frame rates are too slow to catch impact or very near to impact. At 35 sec Thiem appears to close his eyes when the racket is closing on the ball....? Thiem appears to close his eyes at 38 sec also. What? It is probably the same stroke although the frames shown by YT single frame are different.

Search other Thiem backhand videos to see eyes.

At 32 seconds he closes his eyes again. Interesting........

 

[Chas Tennis]

He's actually pushing off his front foot. So stopping the "weight transfer" and facitilating rotation. To produce, how they call it? parametric acceleration?

Parametric Acceleration

Scapular Retraction is observed on the one hand backhand. Moving the shoulder joint back on the rib cage with Scapular Retraction would shorten the radius from the uppermost body rotation axis, the spine at the neck area, and/or the axis at the shoulder joint. By the principle of Parametric Acceleration, Scapular Retraction should increase racket head speed during the one hand backhand.

Scapular Retraction may be stressful to the shoulder joint.

He's actually pushing off his front foot. So stopping the "weight transfer" and facitilating rotation. To produce, how they call it? parametric acceleration?

Looks like scapular protraction in the take back and the scapular retraction in the forward swing.

If forceful scapular protraction & scapular retraction are used in combination with the 'chest press' uppermost body turn, it looks as if it might be too stressful on the shoulder joint. ? Would forces tend to separate the shoulder joint?

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/the-scapula-in-tennis-strokes.671867/

103 MPH backhand

Scapular Protraction and Scapular Retraction. Scapular Movements Overall. See 0:50-1:15 & 2:36 -3:15 for Protr. & Retr.
3:55 minutes total.

Scapular Protraction and Scapular Retraction. Much detail. 17:04 total.

You seem to be doing Scapular Protraction & Retraction to a considerable degree.

Scapular Protraction and Retraction is what you do when you reach forward for a cup of coffee.

Justine Henin recommended for the 1HBH, to 'look over your shoulder'. I tried turning my head to look over my shoulder and realized that I could not get my chin to the front half of my shoulder. The years go by.................

I started noticing the excessive Scapular Protraction on several strong one hand back hand players. Kuerten is the flagship. You can see his scapula through his shirt. Is that a style point or biomechanics?

Reading up on the scapula and what it can do, shows very simple joint motions of the scapula by sliding around on the rib cage. The 'shoulder joint' itself, the glenohumeral joint, is on the scapula, part of it. When you slide the scapula forward, say 5" around on your ribcage, you translate the shoulder joint.

I posted a long thread on the one hand backhand (much promoted by me). There is a sub-motion I called the 'chest press'. If protraction occurs and the uppermost body turns for the initial forward acceleration, then the upper arm is pressed by the chest. Consider the effects of forceful Scapular Retraction and possibly acceleration of upper arm.

Demo. Nothing rapid or forceful. Do maximum Protraction. Place your arm across your chest, in contact with the chest. Hold the upper arm tight against the chest. If you now do Scapular Retraction, it can cause shoulder horizontal abduction. That sub-motion might add to racket head speed. Maybe SR is being used for a speed boost. ?

You appear to do considerable SP & SR. But your don't initiate acceleration using the uppermost body, you do it with the shoulder joint muscles. So the above does not apply to you, your technique is more like Federer's or F. Lopez's 1HBH, a different technique. The greater number of top ATP 1HBH players use the uppermost body turn to initially accelerate the forward swing, not the shoulder joint.

I am concerned that forceful Scapular Retraction from a Protracted position might tend to separate the shoulder joint if 'chest press' should be used.

Another issue with using the uppermost body, is that it involves twisting of the upper body trunk & spine from the pelvis up. That might be too stressful for many older backs. ?

Just some video observations and an explanation.

If anyone finds some analysis on Scapular Protraction & Scapular Retraction on the one hand backhand, please post.

Scapular Projection and Retraction has been discussed earlier in this thread.

This is the first time that I recall linking
1) One hand backhand
2) Scapular Retraction
and now
3) Parametric Acceleration

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Background -

Racket head speed from Uppermost Body Turn & Shoulder Joint.

Racket head speed should be relative to the ground. Body motion and joint motions should be considered, in 3D, to get racket head speed vs time, especially for impact.

First cut,

You determine location of the body rotation axes and the distances, r, from each axis to the racket head. For circular ground strokes, the main rotation axes are usually through the spine at the neck area, r1, and through the shoulder joint, r2. The rs change during the strokes as the arm angles, forearm-to-racket angles and other angles change. Typically for ATP forehand drives and 1HBHs, mainly I see the uppermost body turn first and then the shoulder joint works before impact. For rec players, it's a mix of uppermost body and shoulder joint. There may be other considerable axes and rotations also. See videos for details.

Next, there are the instantaneous rotation rates, of the uppermost body at spine, ω1, and the shoulder joint, ω2 and any other rotations.

I don't think that the defined joint motions are enough. But for the forehand, the uppermost body turn and the shoulder joint account for much of the forward racket head speed. I ignore, for example, the forward running of the player. Sometimes I consider the wrist joint.

I also don't attempt to calculate actual racket head speeds, not because it is easy but because it is hard.

For high speed videos, if you view squarely to the side of the ball's outgoing trajectory, then you can get a reasonably accurate racket head speed. If the ball is traveling toward or away from the camera, that velocity component cannot be accurately measured.

To measure more accurately than video cameras, 3D Motion Capture Systems with multi-cameras and computers are used. $300K. These systems can probably do a very good job on most of the swinging sub-motions. But rotations, such as intenal shoulder rotation (ISR), cause inaccuracies because the measurements of reflective balls, strapped onto the arm or leg, does not show bone rotation angles accurately. That's because the reflective ball position lags the bone position - because the ball is mounted on the surface of flesh and flesh flops around and lags the desired bone position.




Shortening the distance while the arm and racket are swinging does increase racket head speed and that has a special name, parametric acceleration. This tennis racket speed increase has been much more thoroughly explored for golf and is more widely known there. Search: parametric acceleration golf

Thread on Parametric Acceleration in tennis.

1hbh parametric acceleration

if the fh is no longer 'hitting 3 balls in a row down the target line', why is the 1hbh still taught to 'stay side ways'. it should be a mirror image of the fh, where the parametric acceleration means pulling the right shoulder hard left towards the left shoulder and have racket finish around...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

The ice skater's feet are on ice. Conservation of angular momentum shows by the ice skater spinning up as they pull in two arms and a leg. It may be that parametric acceleration for golf and tennis is the same principle as the ice skater uses but it is no longer so visible because the feet are on the ground for golf and tennis vs on ice.

 

[Dragy]

Parametric Acceleration

Scapular Retraction is observed on the one hand backhand. Moving the shoulder joint back on the rib cage with Scapular Retraction would shorten the radius from the uppermost body rotation axis, the spine at the neck area, and/or the axis at the shoulder joint. By the principle of Parametric Acceleration, Scapular Retraction should increase racket head speed during the one hand backhand.

Scapular Retraction may be stressful to the shoulder joint.





Scapular Projection and Retraction has been discussed earlier in this thread.

This is the first time that I recall linking
1) One hand backhand
2) Scapular Retraction
and now
3) Parametric Acceleration

___________________________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Background -

Racket head speed from Uppermost Body Turn & Shoulder Joint.

Scapular retraction, if any, is minor move compared to a full 1+ ft rightward movement of the shoulder due to torso rotation before contact.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Scapular retraction, if any, is minor move compared to a full 1+ ft rightward movement of the shoulder due to torso rotation before contact.

There are many sub-motions that contribute to racket head speed.

1) Most significant sub-motion.
2) Next significant sub-motion.
3) so on
4) .......

Gasquet hit a one hand backhand over 100 MPH.

I see all strokes as having many sub-motions, each contributing a large, medium or small percentage to racket head speed at impact. I can usually identify 2 or 3 of the most significant sub-motions. I can identify others that might be adding a few percent, but no percentage estimates. ("Contributing" here could be before impact or at the time of impact. )

At this time, I don't believe that all of the stroke sub-motions have even been identified.

Do you think that any of the sub-motions listed in this thread are not seen in high speed videos of ATP players? Anyone else?

If anyone finds research on the sub-motions, that are listed in this thread, please post.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Scapular retraction, if any, is minor move compared to a full 1+ ft rightward movement of the shoulder due to torso rotation before contact.

Golf swing

Looks like a lot of uppermost body rotation ("Torso rotation") and not much Scapular Retraction for that golf swing.

Interesting analysis subject - Torso Rotation vs Scapular Rotation for Parametric Acceleration in the 1HBH

The shortening of r with speed increase would have to be before impact.

Now, if we only had videos from above (or below) of an ATP one hand backhand.............

 

[Fintft]

Scapular retraction, if any, is minor move compared to a full 1+ ft rightward movement of the shoulder due to torso rotation before contact.

That's the latest advice/correction my coach has done to my 1HBH: as opposed to using mainly arm rotation.

Thanks!

 

[coolvinny]

Gravity (assisted by the prep position).

 

[tennisbike]

Maybe Off topic:

One surprise that I observed from these video clip is the position of ball/racket at the contact, pretty much in front of body/belly button. This is different than the image of an ideal in my head which much further toward the net/target. Perhaps I need to completely revamp that image. Isn't this what was referred to as opening too soon? Or perhaps they were a bit late or forced. Love to have some "expert" comment on how in front should the ideal contact zone be.

I admire the dedication/focus of this thread, my journey now focus on basically two stage of stroke production, 1. pre-contact, and 2 contact zone. (The follow through is not a focus) The goal of the contact zone is universal or fundamental which is to maintain a consistent racket angle. Whether there is acceleration involved in contact zone, my personal feeling is .. as long as it does not impede the racket angle. Thus the acceleration or accumulating momentum needs to happen before the contact zone. (Again this is universal even in volley)

The easiest way to visualize a swing is using something like a nunchucks or hand drum in Karate Kid 2. The swing can happen without scapular retraction or shoulder/arm rotation, and some players use those. What is the biggest muscle group to use then is the leg and core. So in the model it is the shoulder. The shoulder need to initiate the movement. Since I do not believe the body can initiate twisting very effectively, I believe either pre-twist starting with unit-turn and then pulling back the off-hand can facilitate that. Or in the more old school way, lead the stroke with the shoulder, or simply stepping forward... There is definitely parametric acceleration happening there..

Once more, there is beauty and mystery in this majestic one handed backhand. If you force it not just right, you can make it worse. Happy journey!

 

[Chas Tennis]

Maybe Off topic:

One surprise that I observed from these video clip is the position of ball/racket at the contact, pretty much in front of body/belly button. This is different than the image of an ideal in my head which much further toward the net/target. Perhaps I need to completely revamp that image. Isn't this what was referred to as opening too soon? Or perhaps they were a bit late or forced. Love to have some "expert" comment on how in front should the ideal contact zone be.

I admire the dedication/focus of this thread, my journey now focus on basically two stage of stroke production, 1. pre-contact, and 2 contact zone. (The follow through is not a focus) The goal of the contact zone is universal or fundamental which is to maintain a consistent racket angle. Whether there is acceleration involved in contact zone, my personal feeling is .. as long as it does not impede the racket angle. Thus the acceleration or accumulating momentum needs to happen before the contact zone. (Again this is universal even in volley)

The easiest way to visualize a swing is using something like a nunchucks or hand drum in Karate Kid 2. The swing can happen without scapular retraction or shoulder/arm rotation, and some players use those. What is the biggest muscle group to use then is the leg and core. So in the model it is the shoulder. The shoulder need to initiate the movement. Since I do not believe the body can initiate twisting very effectively, I believe either pre-twist starting with unit-turn and then pulling back the off-hand can facilitate that. Or in the more old school way, lead the stroke with the shoulder, or simply stepping forward... There is definitely parametric acceleration happening there..

Once more, there is beauty and mystery in this majestic one handed backhand. If you force it not just right, you can make it worse. Happy journey!

This thread is about what is seen in videos of the one hand backhands of most top ATP one hand backhands and Justine Henin's.

You believe some things that I don't see.

Work though this long thread - sub-motion by sub-motion - and if you don't believe the sub-motions that I've shown and discussed, find videos that don't agree and show otherwise.

The answer to the thread title is - the uppermost body turn initiates the forces for the forward swing of the arm with the shoulder joint waiting till later. This is shown by the chest being seen contacting - as close as can be seen - the upper arm. In addition, the upper arm and the line between the two shoulders are seen accelerating together in sync. I refer to that as 'chest press'.

Videos! Best to believe what's in the videos.

 

[Dragy]

One surprise that I observed from these video clip is the position of ball/racket at the contact, pretty much in front of body/belly button. This is different than the image of an ideal in my head which much further toward the net/target. Perhaps I need to completely revamp that image. Isn't this what was referred to as opening too soon? Or perhaps they were a bit late or forced. Love to have some "expert" comment on how in front should the ideal contact zone be.

You may find it easier to solve if you notice there’re 2 major types of execution of (any GS) OHB:
- one with earlier “release” and hitting via outer pass, the outside of the ball; here you will see more of staying sideways
- one with delayed “release” and hitting via inside pass; here player rotates more and drags racquet farther in

 

[tennisbike]

You may find it easier to solve if you notice there’re 2 major types of execution of (any GS) OHB:
- one with earlier “release” and hitting via outer pass, the outside of the ball; here you will see more of staying sideways
- one with delayed “release” and hitting via inside pass; here player rotates more and drags racquet farther in

Two types of execution, are you saying that they are not two different technique but application of the same stroke in two situation? I guess what I am really wondering is whether I should try to hit a bit more open and not try to stay facing sideways during the contact zone.

 

[Injured Again]

Two types of execution, are you saying that they are not two different technique but application of the same stroke in two situation? I guess what I am really wondering is whether I should try to hit a bit more open and not try to stay facing sideways during the contact zone.

To me, the important point is that the trunk rotation be mostly or totally stopped in the moments before and into the contact point. This keeps the racquet path moving mostly forward and minimizes the possibility of mis-hitting. If the trunk rotation continues through the impact point, the racquet path is moving sideways through the contact point and that makes it more difficult to center the ball on the strings.

As I've gotten older and have lost shoulder flexibility, I tend to be more rotated into the contact point, but it hasn't seemed to have hurt my ability to hit the ball flat and hard, or with a lot of spin. I also rotate after contact because I have to - I can barely get my arm behind my back so the only way to allow the racquet to gently decelerate is to rotate the trunk.

 

[Chas Tennis]

You may find it easier to solve if you notice there’re of (any GS) OHB:
- one with earlier “release” and hitting via outer pass, the outside of the ball; here you will see more of staying sideways
- one with delayed “release” and hitting via inside pass; here player rotates more and drags racquet farther in

Could you show the "2 major types of execution" in videos?

 

[Chas Tennis]

To me, the important point is that the trunk rotation be mostly or totally stopped in the moments before and into the contact point. This keeps the racquet path moving mostly forward and minimizes the possibility of mis-hitting. If the trunk rotation continues through the impact point, the racquet path is moving sideways through the contact point and that makes it more difficult to center the ball on the strings.

As I've gotten older and have lost shoulder flexibility, I tend to be more rotated into the contact point, but it hasn't seemed to have hurt my ability to hit the ball flat and hard, or with a lot of spin. I also rotate after contact because I have to - I can barely get my arm behind my back so the only way to allow the racquet to gently decelerate is to rotate the trunk.

"....To me, the important point is that the trunk rotation be mostly or totally stopped in the moments before and into the contact point...."

There is a difference between rotationally accelerating and then stopping torque - then the rotating element keeps on rotating at a fixed speed. But if during that time of zero torque, the shoulder joint starts accelerating the upper arm, then the uppermost body would slow down. Is that what you are describing?

A good approach is to know what the best ATP players are doing as a reference and orientation. Here is a 103 MPH backhand. He has a red line down the side of his shirt, I see it turning.

Next study what you are doing as seen in videos. If you are compensating for an unknown injury that is a special case of its own, no conclusions on biomechanics.

 

[Cashman]

98 hectopascals

 

[Dragy]

Could you show the "2 major types of execution" in videos?

Here at 2:55, 3:52 you can see some “outside track” execution
At 0:28, 1:05, 1:56 and many more you can see “inside track” execution.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Here at 2:55, 3:52 you can see some “outside track” execution
At 0:28, 1:05, 1:56 and many more you can see “inside track” execution.

"Here at 2:55, 3:52 you can see some “outside track” execution "

When I look for 2:55, I don't see an impact in second 2:55. I see an impact at 2:59 and the shot goes down the line.

When I look for 3:52, I don't see an impact in second 3:52 . At 3:55 I see a shot and it is very wide to the other side of the court.

The two shots are completely different in result.

For "outside track" execution, what am I looking?

What time is shown on the video when you stop on the frame closest to impact?

You can find the exact frame by going to the time that the video time changes seconds and then counting frames each time that you press frame advance. For example, if impact appears in second 5:55, go to the frame that 5:54 changes to 5:55, then count frames to get to the frame with impact. For example, the frame of impact is then identified by 5:55 plus, say, 12 frames.

 

[Dragy]

"Here at 2:55, 3:52 you can see some “outside track” execution "

When I look for 2:55, I don't see an impact in second 2:55. I see an impact at 2:59 and the shot goes down the line.

When I look for 3:52, I don't see an impact in second 3:52 . At 3:55 I see a shot and it is very wide to the other side of the court.

The two shots are completely different in result.

For "outside track" execution, what am I looking?

What time is shown on the video when you stop on the frame closest to impact?

You can find the exact frame by going to the time that the video time changes seconds and then counting frames each time that you press frame advance. For example, if impact appears in second 5:55, go to the frame that 5:54 changes to 5:55, then count frames to get to the frame with impact. For example, the frame of impact is then identified by 5:55 plus, say, 12 frames.

The shots are aimed to different spots, but executed in a similar way:
- staying “closed” with the torso with respect to target direction
- early “release”
- racquet head moving “outward” related to target direction around contact

No I won’t find frames for you. I showed you what to look for. Feel free to dig as deep as you might wish

 

[optic yellow]

@Chas Tennis - have you studied much of Tsitipas' backhand technique? He hits one of the spinniest BH in the ATP (behind Gasquet, Shapo, and Ceccihnato), but his technique seems a little different than Gasquet/Henin/Wawrinka. Sometimes it doesn't look like he makes contact with the chest (like Fed doesn't). Also, his backswing isn't quite as vertical and his follow-through sometimes seems a little more to the side than Gasquet. Food for thought...

2.75 years later and his BH is still considered one of the worst relative to general skill level on tour.

 

[Chas Tennis]

2.75 years later and his BH is still considered one of the worst relative to general skill level on tour.

These backhands may be lower intensity. ? I see some 'chest press', some looks brief and that would lower pace.

Tsitsipas was highly ranked in the world for a considerable time so his backhand results must be very superior to the "general skill level on tour". Who said that his backhand had problems?

Stefanos Tsitsipas | Rankings History | ATP Tour | Tennis

Official weekly ATP Rankings history of Stefanos Tsitsipas for singles and doubles. Filter by career or year.

www.atptour.com

Selected match footage for Tsitsipas when he wants to hit pace would be representative of his best technique. Highlight reel type shots.

This looks like a strong 1HBH to me. Federer's 1HBH looks strong also but I prefer the 'chest press' technique.

UPDATE- AT 3:20 or so there is a close-up with a good camera angle. There appears to be space under the upper arm. That would no chest press on that backhand. ??

Chest Press. I look for the line between the two shoulders or chest and the upper arm to move together in sync as an indicator of 'chest press' and also the upper arm and chest must appear to touch or might touch (there's always shadow and clothes where the chest meets the upper arm). If there is space showing between the chest and upper arm, there's no 'chest press'.

If you have an analysis, video or criticism of Tsitsipas's best backhands, please post. What's wrong with his backhand?

 

[onehandbh]

When I did this experiment I measured about 28 lbs when using the shoulder joint muscles.

When I used the trunk, legs and other available muscles with the upper arm pressed on the chest and no shoulder joint muscles, I measured about 52 lbs.

Try it.

From the results of your experiment, it appears that @Shroud 's racquet is actually very light. He can mod his racquet up to 35 lbs without any problems as long as he uses his torso to swing his racquet.

 

[Shroud]

From the results of your experiment, it appears that @Shroud 's racquet is actually very light. He can mod his racquet up to 35 lbs without any problems as long as he uses his torso to swing his racquet.

man. I checked out on this thread long ago. He means well but not onboard with the analysis with the chest press and at one point it was said the offhand pulled the racquet down. FWIW though yes, if you use your body to swing 400g racquets are indeed quite light.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I never saw Shroud do the chest press or attempt it. His upper arm separates from his chest like Federer's and F. Lopez's.

Most ATP players and Justine Henin do the chest press. Videos in this thread, for many clear sub-motions identified on the 1HBH.

Analysis of Federer not doing chest press.

Analysis of F. Lopez not doing chest press.

All the sub-motions were listed when found. They play their part in the top one hand backhands in 2022.

No good counter points or disagreements except one reasonable Dragy argument that I don't agree with.

 

[Chas Tennis]

From the results of your experiment, it appears that @Shroud 's racquet is actually very light. He can mod his racquet up to 35 lbs without any problems as long as he uses his torso to swing his racquet.

Show the video.

 

[Chas Tennis]

From the results of your experiment, it appears that @Shroud 's racquet is actually very light. He can mod his racquet up to 35 lbs without any problems as long as he uses his torso to swing his racquet.

That experiment compares the static force that the uppermost body turn can create at the hand vs the static force that the shoulder joint can create. It indicates mostly that the body muscles that were applied created significantly more static force than the shoulder joint.

Since that experiment, I realized more than just the trunk twisting was involved and maybe some players use those also. ? Also, the turning radius is from the spine to hand for the body turn vs from the shoulder joint to the hand in the other case.

On the other hand, the spinal turn must accelerate the massive upper body plus arm, hand & racket vs the shoulder joint that only has to accelerate the arm, hand & racket. In otherwords, there is a lot of biomechanics to still consider for racket head speed.

But when the uppermost body turns it speeds up the upper arm even before the shoulder joint has contributed anything. Phase one is chest press and phase two is shoulder joint - and both phases add to racket head speed for impact.

Needs work.......

This same two phase technique also applies to the forehand drive.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Similar Biomechanics - 'Chest Press' 1HBH to Baseball Batting

Observe 'Chest Press' and Scapulothoracic Protraction during baseball batting practice at 1:26, 1:33, 2:45, and especially at 3:14. To single frame on Youtube, stop video and use the period & comma keys. You can go full frame and come back down and the video stays on the same frame.

'Chest Press' 1HBH

Fxanimator1, What do you think of this description?

When the upper body/chest turn is used to initially accelerate the arm by the chest directly pressing on the upper arm, the pace of the one hand backhand can be higher and the initial acceleration can be higher. Imagine squeezing a credit card between your chest and upper arm. See high speed videos.

Is accelerating a body part by pressing on it with another body part a known biomechanical principle?

The batting practice also displays Scapulothoracic Protraction, that I believe is important for 'chest press' by improving the upper arm to chest coupling. Maybe later when Scapulothoracic Retraction occurs there may be a more direct contribution to forward velocity racket or bat speed. ?

It would be interesting to study the 2HBH and its biomechanics to the 1HBH and baseball batting.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Wawrinka one hand backhand. Video starts at one of the better camera angles to show many sub-motions discussed in this thread. It looks as if Wawrinka's uppermost body rotates roughly 90 degrees from full take back to impact. Illustrates 'chest press' one hand backhand technique as discussed in post #51.

See backhand leading to impact at 2:33. (First playback starts around 2:29.)

 

[Chas Tennis]

Golf swings share 'chest press' and Scapulothoracic Protraction with the one hand backhand technique. This couples the upper arm motion to the untwisting of the uppermost body.

To single frame on Youtube, stop video, go full screen and use the period & comma keys.

Note- The golf club shaft often displays a curve where the head of the golf club appears to be ahead of the shaft which is bending. That is a well known false camera artifact and the racket shaft does not bend that way. See the Jello Effect of CMOS cameras.

 

[optic yellow]

Golf swings share 'chest press' and Scapulothoracic Protraction with the one hand backhand technique. This couples the upper arm motion to the untwisting of the uppermost body.

To single frame on Youtube, stop video, go full screen and use the period & comma keys.

How did you get past marvelling at the majestic levels of separation on the backswing?

 

[Chas Tennis]

How did you get past marvelling at the majestic levels of separation on the backswing?

I tend to think of impact and work back through the sub-motions leading to impact. For these golf swings, I only observed the sub-motions of Scapulothoracic Protraction and chest press for each swing. If you see the line between the 2 shoulders and the line of the upper arm moving together, that is a better indicator of the 'chest press' sub-motion than trying to interpret what the shadow between the chest and upper arm might mean forcewise.

 

[optic yellow]

I tend to think of impact and work back through the sub-motions leading to impact. For these golf swings, I only observed the sub-motions of Scapulothoracic Protraction and chest press for each swing. If you see the line between the 2 shoulders and the line of the upper arm moving together, that is a better indicator of the 'chest press' sub-motion than trying to interpret what the shadow between the chest and upper arm might mean forcewise.

Oh I was just making a friendly joke since the hip/shoulder separation is such an important source of power in golf too and it is really noticeable in all of these strokes in the video, but I did at the wall today start thinking of my golf swing when trying to hit left handed backhands and I was catching them with more zip than I typically. I will watch the video again focusing specifically on those two things.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Oh I was just making a friendly joke since the hip/shoulder separation is such an important source of power in golf too and it is really noticeable in all of these strokes in the video, but I did at the wall today start thinking of my golf swing when trying to hit left handed backhands and I was catching them with more zip than I typically. I will watch the video again focusing specifically on those two things.

You get "more zip" because

Uppermost Body Turn turns the shoulder mass & upper arm bone initially and then the shoulder joint itself can add more. Uppermost Body Turn + Shoulder Joint are additive sub-motions for racket head speed.

There are additional sub-motions described with videos in this thread.

 

[Dragy]

Never mind, am not getting into it

 

[Chas Tennis]

Using Youtube single frame period & comma keys to study stroke sub-motion sequencing.

In studying high speed videos, it is difficult to remember what has occurred earlier in a tennis stroke. This technique helps.

The various sub-motions of tennis strokes are used in a specific sequence.

One easy way to study this sequence is to use the Youtube period key and then the comma key for frame control.

Stop on stroke. Go full screen. On Youtube, use the period and comma keys.

1) Go full screen on the Youtube video.
2) Find the stroke and stop the video there.
3) Hold down the period key and then the comma key,........repeat, repeat, repeat, ....forth & back over the tennis stroke.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4) observe all sub-motions that contribute to or will contribute to forward racket head speed at impact.
a. observe the line between the 2 hips
b. observe the line between the 2 shoulders
c. observe line of the forearm and racket shaft as an indication of wrist angle as discussed earlier in Gasquet post #426.
d. others?

Observe what appears to drive the sub-motions for a-d. For example, leg for hip turn, trunk for shoulder turn, etc.

The above Forth & Back analysis technique, works on Youtubes on your computer.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

For those with video skills, other ways to display a sequence of sub-motions -

GIFs, slow, repeating

lines of frames showing each sub-motion, start to stop
1) hip line turn,
2) shoulder line turn
3) wrist angle change,
4) others

Lines of frames one above the other.


Forth & Back sequence of select single frames. Timed when each sub-motion starts and stops. For example, hip line turn, shoulder line turn. Lots of display options to show time and sub-motion.

SEARCHFORTH&BACK

 

[ratherlosethanpush]

Using Youtube single frame period & comma keys to study stroke sub-motion sequencing.

In studying high speed videos, it is difficult to remember what has occurred earlier in a tennis stroke. This technique helps.

The various sub-motions of tennis strokes are used in a specific sequence.

One easy way to study this sequence is to use the Youtube period key and then the comma key for frame control.

Stop on stroke. Go full screen. On Youtube, use the period and comma keys.

1) Go full screen on the Youtube video.
2) Find the stroke and stop the video there.
3) Hold down the period key and then the comma key,........repeat, repeat, repeat, ....forth & back over the tennis stroke.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4) observe all sub-motions that contribute to or will contribute to forward racket head speed at impact.
a. observe the line between the 2 hips
b. observe the line between the 2 shoulders
c. observe line of the forearm and racket shaft as an indication of wrist angle as discussed earlier in Gasquet post #426.
d. others?

Observe what appears to drive the sub-motions for a-d. For example, leg for hip turn, trunk for shoulder turn, etc.

The above Forth & Back analysis technique, works on Youtubes on your computer.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

For those with video skills, other ways to display a sequence of sub-motions -

GIFs, slow, repeating

lines of frames showing each sub-motion, start to stop
1) hip line turn,
2) shoulder line turn
3) wrist angle change,
4) others

Lines of frames one above the other.


Forth & Back sequence of select single frames. Timed when each sub-motion starts and stops. For example, hip line turn, shoulder line turn. Lots of display options to show time and sub-motion.

@Chas Tennis you might find it interesting or instructive to find videos of elite level 1 handed or armed golfers. A lead arm only golfer could be more similar to the ohbh and a trail arm only golfer more similar to a fh.
Golf studies years ago by cochran and stobbs showed a 20% loss of power in one handed golfers, other things such as low point are affected when you go from a triangle between shoulders and hands on the club to a single fulcrum or shoulder joint.

 

[Chas Tennis]

@Chas Tennis you might find it interesting or instructive to find videos of elite level 1 handed or armed golfers. A lead arm only golfer could be more similar to the ohbh and a trail arm only golfer more similar to a fh.
Golf studies years ago by cochran and stobbs showed a 20% loss of power in one handed golfers, other things such as low point are affected when you go from a triangle between shoulders and hands on the club to a single fulcrum or shoulder joint.

I noticed the chest press similarity with golfers and tennis players. I posted it earlier in this thread. But my best golf video is no longer available. I emailed one of the golfers in Hawaii that had internet material.

Baseball batters also use the chest press for powerful swings. See post #438.

During the chest press phase, the shoulder joint is not yet involved. The uppermost body is turning with high rotational acceleration and with chest press that also turns the shoulder mass in sync so the entire shoulder joint (mass) is being accelerated. During some time the upper arm is locked against the chest due to acceleration. But also there is (correctionScapulothoracic) Scapular Projection as the scapula slides forward around on the rib cage. I need videos to think about these sub-motions.

I am trying to follow the 1 armed golfer issue. A video would really help.

Golf, tennis and baseball each use the power from the trunk in similar ways. I'd expect some other sports do the same whenever possible and use chest press.

This golf instructor is giving some attention to the 'lead' arm. Looks as if chest press could be involved, but isn't. He uses the other arm & hand instead. Chest press with a trained fixed Scapular Projection might tend to help the lead arm in golf training. To see the effect Scapular Projection on chest press try doing Scapular Projection (shoulder mass positioned forward out with Scapular Projection) and then use shoulder joint to move the upper arm to chest. Ask if demo is not clear. See SP posts in this thread.

This couples the arm to the uppermost body turn - not by using chest press - but by using the other arm. (The bend in the golf club is Jello Effect - a camera artifact of CMOS scanning.)

 

[ratherlosethanpush]

I noticed the chest press similarity with golfers and tennis players. I posted it earlier in this thread. But my best golf video is no longer available. I emailed one of the golfers in Hawaii that had internet material.

Baseball batters also use the chest press for powerful swings. See post #438.

During the chest press phase, the shoulder joint is not yet involved. The uppermost body is turning with high rotational acceleration and with chest press that also turns the shoulder mass in sync so the entire shoulder joint is being rotationally accelerated. During some time the shoulder is locked against the chest due to acceleration. But also there is Scapulothoracic Projection as the scapula slides around on the rib cage. I need videos to think about these sub-motions.

I am trying to follow the 1 armed golfer issue. A video would really help.

Golf, tennis and baseball each use the power from the trunk in similar ways. I'd expect some other sports do the same whenever possible and use chest press.

This golf instructor is giving some attention to the 'lead' arm. Looks as if chest press could be involved, but isn't. Chest press with a trained Scapulothoracic Projection might tend to help the lead arm in golf. Try doing Scapulothoracic Projection (shoulder mass out with Scapulothoracic Projection) and then then use shoulder joint to move the upper arm to chest.

Those golf videos are pretty gentle swings. You'd need to get long driving attempts to really see all muscle groups that may be involved in an efficient and powerful motion.

I've dug the cochran and stobbs book out, it doesn't go into deep analysis in its explanations even if that work was done behind the scenes.

They're estimating 3 plus horse power for a full drive, which means major muscle groups are needed to create the power (muscles tend to work in opposing pairs so a lot of muscle mass is needed).

"The legs and hips are the engine of the swing; the arms and hands are the transmission system...a certain amount of extra power can be added"

They're suggesting a stack of co-axial cylinders being most efficient when energy is transferred up and out.

They do caution against trying to relate those cylinders to parts of the human body and further subdivisions particularly if going a step further and thinking of trying to use mucle grouos x, y, z to move cylinder a etc. The quote is "don't look at this. Cut it out and show it to your opponent."

They suggest "the principle is for the golfer to feel that each part of the body is being pulled around by the rotary action of the part immediately below, until this part has largely spent itself, at which time the part higher up in the sequence takes over the driving function"

 

[Chas Tennis]

Those golf videos are pretty gentle swings. You'd need to get long driving attempts to really see all muscle groups that may be involved in an efficient and powerful motion.

I've dug the cochran and stobbs book out, it doesn't go into deep analysis in its explanations even if that work was done behind the scenes.

They're estimating 3 plus horse power for a full drive, which means major muscle groups are needed to create the power (muscles tend to work in opposing pairs so a lot of muscle mass is needed).

"The legs and hips are the engine of the swing; the arms and hands are the transmission system...a certain amount of extra power can be added"

They're suggesting a stack of co-axial cylinders being most efficient when energy is transferred up and out.

They do caution against trying to relate those cylinders to parts of the human body and further subdivisions particularly if going a step further and thinking of trying to use mucle grouos x, y, z to move cylinder a etc. The quote is "don't look at this. Cut it out and show it to your opponent."

They suggest "the principle is for the golfer to feel that each part of the body is being pulled around by the rotary action of the part immediately below, until this part has largely spent itself, at which time the part higher up in the sequence takes over the driving function"

"They suggest "the principle is for the golfer to feel that each part of the body is being pulled around by the rotary action of the part immediately below, until this part has largely spent itself, at which time the part higher up in the sequence takes over the driving function""

From watching ATP & WTA stokes, I view the tennis 1HBH and forehand drives as 2 phase strokes with uppermost body turn being the 1st phase and the shoulder joint sub-motion being the 2nd phase. That quoted golf description seems similar. I use the words "twisting" and "untwisting" for the torso sub-motion and it involves the stretch shorten cycle.