One Parnell knot undoing itself on the main string

guanzishou

Hall of Fame
I have been using Parnell knot on all of my hundreds of stringing jobs with no problem, on my Wilson Pro Staff 90.

I have just started using Toalson Power Swing 400 racquet. I string it with Wilson Synthetic Gut Power 16 gauge, a very slippery string.

The freshly strung racquet hadn't been used, so this morning I took it out of the bag, and voila, one of the Parnell knots of the main string came undone on its own, without being used or played with before.

Why can this happen?




I then strung another Toalson Power Swing 400 racquet, this time using Wilson Pro knots on all of the knots. I had a hit with it for 2 hours no problem. All of the knots stayed intact and the tension feels great and consistent during play.

I've been using Parnell knot and been trusting it for so long, and now with this new racquet I have to change to Wilson Pro Knot... or maybe there are other type of knots that are stronger?

What's the strongest knot out there? PC knot? Double half hitch?

This string I'm using has a very slippery coating!


Pictures:


Parnell knot on main came off on the left side.

Right side: main string Parnell knot on the left, cross string Parnell knot on the right.


Parnell knot for cross string at the top of the racquet.




Edit: I've just strung this troubled racquet using PC knots on all the tie off's. I'll see if it works well. So I have one racquet with Wilson Pro knots, and another one with PC knots.
Picture of the PC knots:



Picture of the Wilson Pro Knots:

 
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guanzishou

Hall of Fame
I think its far more likely that you mis-knotted the string than that the Parnell, or any proper knot for that matter, came undone.

But that's just my opinion.
Thanks for your reply. I wonder about that too, but I am pretty sure I didn't mis-knot the Parnell knot.

This incident actually happened before, not in the tennis bag, but on the stringing machine. I've just done stringing the main string, tied the knot for the main string. Then I proceeded to string the cross string. After a few rows of cross strings, one of the main string parnell knot came undone. Then the second incident happened while the racquet was stored in the tennis bag, not during stringing.

I think it is the slippery string, or the shape of the grommet hole, I don't know. This never happened before... I've tied so many many Parnell knots before with no problems. Maybe it's the structure of the racquet..? I never have this problem with my Wilson Pro Staff 90 racquets.
 
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eah123

Semi-Pro
You leave your tails pretty long, so I would guess that the tail got hooked onto something in your bag and got pushed back into the loop?
 

guanzishou

Hall of Fame
You leave your tails pretty long, so I would guess that the tail got hooked onto something in your bag and got pushed back into the loop?
Nothing else was in the bag. Each of my racquet has its own racquet cover bag, something like this:



So it's not a big racquet bag that holds many racquets or other tennis gears. My tennis racquet bags are small and can only hold one racquet each and nothing else is inside the bag.

It's also difficult for things to push the string tail back into the loop because with Parnell knot the tail is leaning tight against the frame. And I cut the tail flush with the racquet beam so it's not as if they are dangling out wildly.


One more thing, the incident also happened while the racquet was on the stringing machine, not in the tennis bag. One of the main string knot came undone when I started stringing a few rows of cross string.
 

BenC

Semi-Pro
fwiw Wilson Synthetic Gut Power is one of the slipperiest strings I've strung and I also had difficulty with tie off knots slipping back out.
 

guanzishou

Hall of Fame
fwiw Wilson Synthetic Gut Power is one of the slipperiest strings I've strung and I also had difficulty with tie off knots slipping back out.
Yeah, very very slippery!

Weird thing is, I never have this problem with Wilson Pro Staff 90 racquet! Now using this 100 sq inch Toalson racquet and I start to have this problem.

I think it needs bulkier knot. PC knot would be good for this, I think. I'll have a hit with the PC knot racquet and will see if it is better. Had a hit with the Wilson Pro knot and it seems to be good.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
I have been using Parnell knot on all of my hundreds of stringing jobs with no problem, on my Wilson Pro Staff 90.

I have just started using Toalson Power Swing 400 racquet. I string it with Wilson Synthetic Gut Power 16 gauge, a very slippery string.

The freshly strung racquet hadn't been used, so this morning I took it out of the bag, and voila, one of the Parnell knots of the main string came undone on its own, without being used or played with before.

Why can this happen?




I then strung another Toalson Power Swing 400 racquet, this time using Wilson Pro knots on all of the knots. I had a hit with it for 2 hours no problem. All of the knots stayed intact and the tension feels great and consistent during play.

I've been using Parnell knot and been trusting it for so long, and now with this new racquet I have to change to Wilson Pro Knot... or maybe there are other type of knots that are stronger?

What's the strongest knot out there? PC knot? Double half hitch?

This string I'm using has a very slippery coating!


Pictures:


Parnell knot on main came off on the left side.

Right side: main string Parnell knot on the left, cross string Parnell knot on the right.


Parnell knot for cross string at the top of the racquet.




Edit: I've just strung this troubled racquet using PC knots on all the tie off's. I'll see if it works well. So I have one racquet with Wilson Pro knots, and another one with PC knots.

Picture of the PC knots:



Picture of the Wilson Pro Knots:

Simple answer you’re not tying a Parnell knot, those are Pro knots. After tying the first half hitch the tag end must go around and under the anchore string again and back up through the loop on the first half hitch.

EDIT: sorry I was looking at pictures of the Pro knots at bottom
 
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guanzishou

Hall of Fame
Simple answer you’re not tying a Parnell knot, those are Pro knots. After tying the first half hitch the tag end must go around and under the anchore string again and back up through the loop on the first half hitch.

EDIT: sorry I was looking at pictures of the Pro knots at bottom
Sorry for the confusion. I've now hidden the pictures of the other knots inside a spoiler.

Have you guys ever had problem with Parnell knot before?
Do you guys know the advantages and disadvantages of every tie-off knot ? Which one is the strongest?

Thanks a lot guys.
 

guanzishou

Hall of Fame
When you finish tying your knot, do you hold onto the end whilst you release the clamp? Any drawback can help tighten it.
That makes sense! No I didn't hold the end when i release the clamp....Thanks for your input.

I'm still puzzled that the Wilson Pro Staff 90 never have this problem with the exact same string. Could it be that Wilson Pro Staff 90 has better grommet design or something like that?
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
Have you guys ever had problem with Parnell knot before?
Speaking for myself I’ve never had any issues with the Parnell.
Do you guys know the advantages and disadvantages of every tie-off knot ?
The Parnell is easy to tie and I’ve never had an issues with it but with some strings, like black string you can’t see well, it’s easy to make a mistake. The double half hitch is a small knot and can easily be pulled into the grommet. The smaller the knot, the smaller the radius, and the smaller the radius the easier it is to actually break the string because it puts too much tension on the outer portion of the string. The Pro knot is easy but again a smaller radius. The iKnot has never slipped for me but sometimes it is just too bulky if you have a large string. With thicker poly string I prefer to use a VS starting knot rather than an iKnot To reduce the size.
Which one is the strongest?
The strongest knots will be one with the larger radius that holds the string such as the Parnell and iKnots. The Parnell has a half hitch to start and then the tag end goes around that half hitch, around the anchor string again with another half hitch and through the first half hitch. The iKnot loops around the anchor string twist then the tag end loops up and through both of those loops creating a larger radius.

EDIT: Once someone said it takes 5 minutes to cinch up and iKnot. I think I can tie an iKnot is less than 20 seconds. By far it is the easiest all knots for my to tie for a starting knot. I do think some stringers dont like starting knots.
 

uk_skippy

Hall of Fame
From what I understand, starting knots are not allowed in some big venue pro rooms. @uk_skippy might be able to confirm
Damn straight. Well not in tournaments I run; and to be honest even those I don't no-one uses a starting knot. However, there may be times when could be use such if the amount of string left on a players reel is unsure if there's enough to finish a racquet.
 

uk_skippy

Hall of Fame
Its not likely to be the knot, but how you tie it. As @Dags has said, you should be holding it when you're releasing the the clamp mechanisium; but more importantly, re4lease the base while holding it, not the clamp. This is becuase if there is drawback, the clamp will go with the string whereas if you release the clamp there's a risk that the string could get damaged on the inside of the teeth. Also, you should cut the tail of the knot after you've released the the base & clamp; not before. If you cut it before, then the drawback could casue the knot to come undone
 

guanzishou

Hall of Fame
Speaking for myself I’ve never had any issues with the Parnell.

The Parnell is easy to tie and I’ve never had an issues with it but with some strings, like black string you can’t see well, it’s easy to make a mistake. The double half hitch is a small knot and can easily be pulled into the grommet. The smaller the knot, the smaller the radius, and the smaller the radius the easier it is to actually break the string because it puts too much tension on the outer portion of the string. The Pro knot is easy but again a smaller radius. The iKnot has never slipped for me but sometimes it is just too bulky if you have a large string. With thicker poly string I prefer to use a VS starting knot rather than an iKnot To reduce the size.

The strongest knots will be one with the larger radius that holds the string such as the Parnell and iKnots. The Parnell has a half hitch to start and then the tag end goes around that half hitch, around the anchor string again with another half hitch and through the first half hitch. The iKnot loops around the anchor string twist then the tag end loops up and through both of those loops creating a larger radius.

EDIT: Once someone said it takes 5 minutes to cinch up and iKnot. I think I can tie an iKnot is less than 20 seconds. By far it is the easiest all knots for my to tie for a starting knot. I do think some stringers dont like starting knots.
Thanks so much for your help!
 

guanzishou

Hall of Fame
Its not likely to be the knot, but how you tie it. As @Dags has said, you should be holding it when you're releasing the the clamp mechanisium; but more importantly, re4lease the base while holding it, not the clamp. This is becuase if there is drawback, the clamp will go with the string whereas if you release the clamp there's a risk that the string could get damaged on the inside of the teeth. Also, you should cut the tail of the knot after you've released the the base & clamp; not before. If you cut it before, then the drawback could casue the knot to come undone
Thanks so much for the tips. I'll make sure next time I string, after tying a knot I will hold the string tail, release the base of the clamp, and then release the clamp, then cut the tail.
 
Another thing that could be happening is with the racket. I don't know much about Toalson rackets, but the new Yonex VCores have a new technology called String Sync, which allows more string movement for more spin. I've had slippery 17g (Babolat Syn Gut 17) pull out a couple of times. I've had to modify my knots to account for this.
 

guanzishou

Hall of Fame
Another thing that could be happening is with the racket. I don't know much about Toalson rackets, but the new Yonex VCores have a new technology called String Sync, which allows more string movement for more spin. I've had slippery 17g (Babolat Syn Gut 17) pull out a couple of times. I've had to modify my knots to account for this.
Interesting about the String Sync technology. I don't know about this Toalson Power Swing 400 racquet... It's quite an old model.

What knot do you use or how did you modify it?
 
Damn straight. Well not in tournaments I run; and to be honest even those I don't no-one uses a starting knot. However, there may be times when could be use such if the amount of string left on a players reel is unsure if there's enough to finish a racquet.
This has me curious. Please elaborate, if you would: Are starting knots literally not allowed - as in forbidden? Or is it a case of "everyone hates them" or "that is so inferior to using a starting clamp and tensioning that cross later on"?

Thanks
 

am1899

Hall of Fame
This has me curious. Please elaborate, if you would: Are starting knots literally not allowed - as in forbidden? Or is it a case of "everyone hates them" or "that is so inferior to using a starting clamp and tensioning that cross later on"?

Thanks
Forbidden in that case (except a rare “one-off” circumstance like the one skippy mentioned). Tournament stringing rooms and their respective teams often have a set of parameters within which to string - particularly at the big events. Often one of those parameters is that a starting clamp is to be used to start the crosses.
 
Interesting about the String Sync technology. I don't know about this Toalson Power Swing 400 racquet... It's quite an old model.

What knot do you use or how did you modify it?
If the Toalson racket is old, it probably doesn't have anything like the String Sync. I was really surprised, but I could literally see the string moving. I did a double half hitch 1st. I have no idea the name of the knot I used after that. Over the years (I've been stringing since 1979), I've developed different knots that I like to use. I'm sure most have names, I just looked and figured out what was probably already invented.
 

ryushen21

Legend
I'm no expert, but from experience, I can tell you that this happened on one where I incorrectly set up the knot. After watching some knot tutorials from guys like YuLitle and @Irvin , I've had no problems executing the correct Parnell knot with zero issues.

It happens to all of us at some point, I think. We get so used to how we do things that we make an unrealized error.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
I'm no expert, but from experience, I can tell you that this happened on one where I incorrectly set up the knot. After watching some knot tutorials from guys like YuLitle and @Irvin , I've had no problems executing the correct Parnell knot with zero issues.

It happens to all of us at some point, I think. We get so used to how we do things that we make an unrealized error.
It’s easy to come up through the loop of the first half hitch without going under the anchor string. If you do that you end up with a Pro knot not a Parnell. If you have a stretchy slippery SG it could easily untie.
 

AceyMan

Semi-Pro
When you finish tying your knot, do you hold onto the end whilst you release the clamp? Any drawback can help tighten it.
This technique is de rigueur, and one that home stringers sometimes miss.

Additionally, for me: after clamp release & while still holding the tail, I use my setting off awl to push the tied off string up and down firmly in the bed a couple of times to snug up the knot even more. Only then do I let go of the tail in advance if trimming to length.
 

Herb

Semi-Pro
looking at the pictures it does not look like the knots were tightened very well. The knot on the right in the second picture looks like there is a small gap between the loops. Could be wrong.
 

guanzishou

Hall of Fame
Meh just do wilson pro knot, never had one slip
I have been playing with the racquet that's strung with Wilson Pro knots... No accidents so far. Looks very strong.

I am still puzzled that hundreds of my string jobs on my Wilson Pro Staff 90 with Parnell knots did not have any issues at all... NOT ONCE.
 

guanzishou

Hall of Fame
This technique is de rigueur, and one that home stringers sometimes miss.

Additionally, for me: after clamp release & while still holding the tail, I use my setting off awl to push the tied off string up and down firmly in the bed a couple of times to snug up the knot even more. Only then do I let go of the tail in advance if trimming to length.
Thanks for the tips! Much appreciated.
 
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esgee48

G.O.A.T.
If you ever get multiple frames (same frame, same string and tension) from a client, do what I sometimes do just so he can tell which frame is which. I will tie one with the Pro knot, 2nd one with Parnell and 3rd, if needed, with DHH. I like to screw around with his head since I can't beat him straight up.o_O
 

esm

Hall of Fame
If you ever get multiple frames (same frame, same string and tension) from a client, do what I sometimes do just so he can tell which frame is which. I will tie one with the Pro knot, 2nd one with Parnell and 3rd, if needed, with DHH. I like to screw around with his head since I can't beat him straight up.o_O
I usually encourage my guys to use different colour grip finish tape to differentiate multiple racquets, followed by labels with infos inside the throat. Much easier for people like me with old(er) eyes. Lol
 

gucanella

New User
One of my V Core Pro has a code with PY e and the other BR, meaning the first one was imported to Paraguay and the second to Brazil.

That's how I "label" my racquets
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
I just strung a racket with 1.25/mm Head SG PPS. It‘s one of the slipperest strings I have strung. I used a Parnell knot and for the first time one of the knots untied all on its own. I think it is the string that’s causing your issue. I strung the racket again with iKnots and it seems to be holding Ok.
 

graycrait

Hall of Fame
OK, I am a home stringer using a lot of nat gut, Zyex, Kevlar, syn gut and multis and the usual suspects in poly. And am now a huge fan of 18g. I used to only use double half hitches and a traditional starting knot but was "shamed" into trying something else. I now use a Wilson Pro Knot on everything including as a starting knots and have never had one come undone or cause an "issue." I refuse to learn any more knots although I watched Parnell knot videos. The only thing I can add is that when stringing a very stretchy string leave the tag end long on knots until the racket is complete, then cut and/or pull the knot fairly tight using a clamp or pliers except for Zyex.
 

esgee48

G.O.A.T.
@graycrait, why worry over such a small thing? As long as the strings are straight and undamaged, at the right tension and have tight neat knots, the stringers are doing their job. I don't care what knots a stringer uses. I would care if the strings are not straight, or notched/frayed/burned, or have lousy looking knots that are very badly tied i.e. 2 DHH right on top of each other to tie off a main.
 

guanzishou

Hall of Fame
I just strung a racket with 1.25/mm Head SG PPS. It‘s one of the slipperest strings I have strung. I used a Parnell knot and for the first time one of the knots untied all on its own. I think it is the string that’s causing your issue. I strung the racket again with iKnots and it seems to be holding Ok.
:D Thank you for sharing your experience! I'll have a look at iKnot.
 

guanzishou

Hall of Fame
The only thing I can add is that when stringing a very stretchy string leave the tag end long on knots until the racket is complete, then cut and/or pull the knot fairly tight using a clamp or pliers except for Zyex.
That's what I did after the incident happened. I left the main string's tails uncut (I even tied both tails down to something to prevent it from being pulled in :-D), and made sure that all knots were tied very tight using starting clamp (that's what I've always done since my 1st string job). Next stringing job, I will try what other have suggested, which is to hold the tail end while releasing the clamp's base and the clamp... then make sure the knot is tied very tight.

I now use a Wilson Pro Knot on everything including as a starting knots and have never had one come undone or cause an "issue." I refuse to learn any more knots although I watched Parnell knot videos.
My racquet with Wilson Pro Knot is still going strong! Very happy with it.
 

ryushen21

Legend
I just strung a racket with 1.25/mm Head SG PPS. It‘s one of the slipperest strings I have strung. I used a Parnell knot and for the first time one of the knots untied all on its own. I think it is the string that’s causing your issue. I strung the racket again with iKnots and it seems to be holding Ok.
Well, now I have to test this out for myself. I'll string up the mains on one of my "practice" frames with pps and see what happens.
 

happyandbob

Hall of Fame
I just strung a racket with 1.25/mm Head SG PPS. It‘s one of the slipperest strings I have strung. I used a Parnell knot and for the first time one of the knots untied all on its own. I think it is the string that’s causing your issue. I strung the racket again with iKnots and it seems to be holding Ok.
it’s too bad that slippery coating on PPS isn’t durable. That string starts sticking after only an hour (n)
 
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