One reason Seles should rank higher all time than Graf

[insideoutforehanders]

Is since she ranks higher on 3 of the 5 major event surfaces.

Graf obviously ranks higher on grass.
Graf ranks higher on decoturf (US Open surface). May still or may not without the stabbing, but it is what it is.
Seles ranks higher on carpet (YEC surface).
Seles ranks higher on rebound ace (Australian Open surface).
Seles ranks higher on clay (French Open surface).

Thus Seles wins 3-2.

 

[EvonneFedererBorgster]

Oh god! Haha! So nobody cares since it’s been over three decades of these posts. But this is much obvious…

Steffi has 6 French Opens, including two wins over Monica. And three runner ups, two semis, two quarters. She’s second to Evert with 7 wins.
Monica has 3 French Opens, including two wins over Steffi, one runner up, three semis + three quarters.
Their head to head on clay is 3-3.

So how does Monica ranked higher than Steffi when she has half the titles?

We’re talking reality. Not what coulda/woulda/shoulda. Cause that’s not reality.

 

[EvonneFedererBorgster]

Also, Steffi has five season ending championships to Monica’s three. So how is Monica better on indoors?
Steffi leads indoor 2-0, including one win over Monica at the season finale.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

Oh god! Haha! So nobody cares since it’s been over three decades of these posts. But this is much obvious…

Steffi has 6 French Opens, including two wins over Monica. And three runner ups, two semis, two quarters. She’s second to Evert with 7 wins.
Monica has 3 French Opens, including two wins over Steffi, one runner up, three semis + three quarters.
Their head to head on clay is 3-3.

So how does Monica ranked higher than Steffi when she has half the titles?

We’re talking reality. Not what coulda/woulda/shoulda. Cause that’s not reality.

Seles ranks higher on clay based on their 90 and 92 matches.

She ranks higher at the YEC and on carpet based on winning 3 YEC in a row, which Graf never did.

Australian Open is too obvious to even point out.

 

[EvonneFedererBorgster]

You gotta get over it. That doesn’t make any sense. You can’t ignore the facts and cherry pick. It immediately gives off Fox FauxNewsTainment non-reality.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

You gotta get over it. That doesn’t make any sense. You can’t ignore the facts and cherry pick. It immediately gives off Fox FauxNewsTainment non-reality.

I just explained how she ranks higher on those 3 places. You asked for reasons, which I agree there should be reasons, and I just gave them. You can disagree with me, but my arguments for Seles ranking higher on all 3 are valid.

I didn't even go into any what ifs without the stabbing. If I did that I would probably rank Seles higher at the US Open based on that, but I didn't. I only spoke of things that actually happened already.

 

[EvonneFedererBorgster]

They actually aren’t. Sorry.
Six French Opens vs three and equally splitting matches doesn’t make any sense that the person with half the titles and less than half the finals is higher ranked. It’s a very Fox FauxNewsTainment Alternative Facts dealio.

 

[buscemi]

Is since she ranks higher on 3 of the 5 major event surfaces.

Graf obviously ranks higher on grass.
Graf ranks higher on decoturf (US Open surface). May still or may not without the stabbing, but it is what it is.
Seles ranks higher on carpet (YEC surface).
Seles ranks higher on rebound ace (Australian Open surface).
Seles ranks higher on clay (French Open surface).

Thus Seles wins 3-2.

This kind of goes in line with my prior post.

At the time of the stabbing, with Seles 19 years-old and Graf 23 years-old, Seles had

-surpassed Graf at the French Open (3 titles vs. 2) and the WTA Finals (3 titles vs. 2); and​

​

-equaled Graf at the Australian Open (3 titles each) and the U.S. Open (2 titles each)​

The only place where Graf was ahead of Seles was Wimbledon.

 

[EvonneFedererBorgster]

Yeah, we all know that. But time kept moving as it does. It’s 2025.

 

[buscemi]

Yeah, we all know that. But time kept moving as it does. It’s 2025.

Sure, and if we're looking at career accomplishments, clearly Graf is ahead of Seles.

But, it we're asking who was the better player on clay, carpet, and Rebound Ace, these numbers/results at the time of the stabbing seem pretty significant.

 

[EvonneFedererBorgster]

Then obviously the thread title needs to be edited….
One Reason Seles Ranks Higher than Graf at The Time of the Stabbing, Spring 1993
Is since she ranks higher on 3 of the 5 major event surfaces at that point in history.

Easy, peasy.

Otherwise there’s a huge difference.

 

[anarosevoli]

All crazy cherrypicking.
And main fact forgotten: At that time Wimbledon still was high above the other slams.

 

[EvonneFedererBorgster]

Wimbledon has always been the crown jewel but they were all pretty equal 1988 onwards.
But yet another repetitive thread about Monica. I am sure she herself would roll her eyes at the many decades of this stuff.

 

[buscemi]

Then obviously the thread title needs to be edited….
One Reason Seles Ranks Higher than Graf at The Time of the Stabbing, Spring 1993
Is since she ranks higher on 3 of the 5 major event surfaces at that point in history.

Easy, peasy.

Otherwise there’s a huge difference.

I don't think so. Again, saying Graf has greater numbers than Seles is one thing. And, if the focus is solely on stockpiling Majors, Graf comes out on top. But others would say we should look beyond numbers, especially in this case.

I can claim that Seles's three wins at the French Open from 1990-1992, including beating Graf in the final at age 16 & 18, proves she's a greater clay player than Graf and that she ranks higher on the surface.

Of course, you can respond that Graf had a resurgence on the surface right after Seles was stabbed, starting with her epic third set comeback in the 1993 final against Fernández.

And I, of course, can respond that needing to scrape past Fernández in the final reinforces my point that Seles is superior on clay.

And so on and so forth.

 

[Hard Court]

One other factor that needs to be considered is "how much" a specific player is better than the other player on the various surfaces.

For example, lets say player A was a lot better than player B on clay, and player B was slighlty better than player B on the other surfaces. In that event, they would probably be pretty close.

That is a lot different then if Player A was slightly better on clay, and Player B was much better on the other surfaces.

 

[EvonneFedererBorgster]

It’s cherry picking and it never ends. Except that it really did end. For Graf in 1999. And for Monica in 2003. Obviously Monica’s stabbing was a horrible tragic event that never should have happened. But nobody has invented a Time Machine yet to rectify it, and if they did there would be innumerable other events that would take precedence.

 

[GuyForget]

All crazy cherrypicking.
And main fact forgotten: At that time Wimbledon still was high above the other slams.

No it wasn’t smh

 

[BTURNER]

If only I would open my mind to the idea that only 3 + years of two player's entire tennis careers cherry-picked by the author of the OP, and only the iwins/losses accrued therein at very specific venues, should be considered in ranking, and every match, or result outside, and every criterion beyond those three bestest-years-ever at those chosen venues, should be dismissed.

Me, I tend to think a little more broadly in my parameters, with a little more nuanced application of facts and context than this represents.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Is since she ranks higher on 3 of the 5 major event surfaces.

Graf obviously ranks higher on grass.
Graf ranks higher on decoturf (US Open surface). May still or may not without the stabbing, but it is what it is.
Seles ranks higher on carpet (YEC surface).
Seles ranks higher on rebound ace (Australian Open surface).
Seles ranks higher on clay (French Open surface).

Thus Seles wins 3-2.

If you say Steffi is greater at Deco Turf because you take their numbers at face value and do not consider any hypothetical of what could have been without the stabbing, then Steffi is also greater on clay and carpet. She has both more FOs and more YECs than Monica. Again we are not factoring hypothetical scenarios without stabbing. Also, the distance between them at Wimbledon is way bigger than at any other slam even the AO. I never quite put too much stock in who is better at more surfaces when comparing players. A guy with 1,0,1,1 would be greater than a guy with 0,12,0,0 by this logic. The margin between the players on the individual surfaces also has to be factored in.

 

[pierceforehands]

Graf easily ranks higher on carpet and clay. On clay Graf has 6 French Opens to Seles's 3, and their French Open head to head is 2-2 and clay head to head 3-3, so you can't even use head to head to place Seles above. Graf also has more clay titles, a higher career win percentage on clay, unless you are doing stabbing what ifs it is no contest. As for carpet I could agree Seles's peak run in 90-92 is greater (I would not say that on clay as Graf has some undefeated years on clay, which Seles never had even once) but Graf not only has 5 YEC to Seles's 3, she has never lost to Seles on carpet, and Seles lacks in event quality results of any sort outside those 3 YEC, she does have a final at the 2000 YEC, and that is basically it, I don't think even another semi final there, and a lot of 1st round losses or DNP at the YEC too. By DNP I dont just mean the 2 she missed due to the stabbing (93 and 94) but others she missed outright due to injury.

Heck it isn't even a slam dunk Seles ranks higher on rebound ace. Both have 4 Australian Open titles, both have 3 in a row. Both also missed 4 Australian Opens somewhere close to their prime, Graf in 87, 92, 95, 96, Seles in 94, 95, 97, 98. The first two for Seles were due to the stabbing which is a different circumstance than being injured, but still Graf missed as many good opportunities as Seles did, in fact Graf probably would have been favored in atleast 3 of those- 87, 95, 96, which I am not sure is true of Seles (97 and 98 imparticular I would not guess her being favored even if being able to play, other than doing guess work without the stabbing). Graf also has the edge with more dominant runs to her titles, many fewer games lost in some of her best runs, in fact Seles has never even won an Australian Open without dropping a set, which Graf did 3 times. Graf lost only 29 games total in 88, only 24 total in 89, 28 in 94. The only reason I might go with Seles though is her 2-0 head to head with Graf there, but that isn't even clear cut at all.

 

[buscemi]

If only I would open my mind to the idea that only 3 + years of two player's entire tennis careers cherry-picked by the author of the OP, and only the iwins/losses accrued therein at very specific venues, should be considered in ranking, and every match, or result outside, and every criterion beyond those three bestest-years-ever at those chosen venues, should be dismissed.

Me, I tend to think a little more broadly in my parameters, with a little more nuanced application of facts and context than this represents.

We're not saying to look at only those 3ish years. Let's go back to my clay example:

As of the stabbing in 1993, we have Graf playing professionally for 12 years (1982-1983) and Seles playing professionally for 4 years (1989-1993).

And, we're saying that, at that point, Seles was greater on clay, having (1) won 3 French Open titles vs. 2 for Graf; and (2) beaten Graf in the 1990 & 1992 finals at age 16 & 18.

I think everyone would agree that Seles was better on clay than Graf at this point.

Then, as I noted, the question becomes whether what Graf did after the stabbing shifts what we think about Graf and Seles on clay. Put another way, does Graf reach another gear that makes us think that she's a better clay court player than Seles?

As I noted, this analysis starts with the French Open that followed the stabbing, meaning we're not freezing things at the time of the stabbing. And, as I noted, the result at the 1993 French Open was Graf coming back from a break down in the third set to beat Fernández.

One way of looking at that is to say that Graf won her third French Open and should now be seen as equal to Seles on clay b/c they both had 3 French Open titles. Another way of looking at it is to say that needing to come back from a break down in the third set to beat Fernández actually widens the gap between Graf and Seles on clay, corroborating Seles's superiority.

And then, we can continue on to consider Graf on clay in 1994 and so on and so forth.

 

[BTURNER]

We're not saying to look at only those 3ish years. Let's go back to my clay example:

As of the stabbing in 1993, we have Graf playing professionally for 12 years (1982-1983) and Seles playing professionally for 4 years (1989-1993).

And, we're saying that, at that point, Seles was greater on clay, having (1) won 3 French Open titles vs. 2 for Graf; and (2) beaten Graf in the 1990 & 1992 finals at age 16 & 18.

I think everyone would agree that Seles was better on clay than Graf at this point.

Then, as I noted, the question becomes whether what Graf did after the stabbing shifts what we think about Graf and Seles on clay. Put another way, does Graf reach another gear that makes us think that she's a better clay court player than Seles?

As I noted, this analysis starts with the French Open that followed the stabbing, meaning we're not freezing things at the time of the stabbing. And, as I noted, the result at the 1993 French Open was Graf coming back from a break down in the third set to beat Fernández.

One way of looking at that is to say that Graf won her third French Open and should now be seen as equal to Seles on clay b/c they both had 3 French Open titles. Another way of looking at it is to say that needing to come back from a break down in the third set to beat Fernández actually widens the gap between Graf and Seles on clay, corroborating Seles's superiority.

And then, we can continue on to consider Graf on clay in 1994 and so on and so forth.

And this is where your logic falls apart. Champions decline from an early peak all the time, for an endless number of reasons. Champions have injuries, others go through periods of exhaustion, burnout, get sick of their celebrity and retire, or just suffer bouts of uninspired play all the time and it hits them as often before or during RG as any other time. We know how long Graf played and how far Graf's level actually dropped, and it actually dropped,, so far that she is stuck with only 6 RG titles and 22 singles slam titles. That is reality. I am not guessing she is reaching a higher level or dropping a lower level. I don't need to.

But I also don't need to make assumptions about Seles clay game or RG results that presume she will stay as good or get better or decline. I know that Monica decided she was ready to come back on the tour, and hoped to get back on top and stay there, but she did not get back on top and stay there. She won one more Australian Open, got to some RG finals, two US Open finals but otherwise stayed basically at the QF level without improving her performance and staying at that level.

You are trying to give her credit for a consistent level of play at #1 that makes her a GOAT candidate, that she did not achieve and which is pretty damn rare. That's why we have had so many more 'best players in the world' than we have GOAT candidates in the history of our sport. Peak greatness is often derailed or overshadowed by circumstances both within the control of these great players, or outside that their control.

Maybe Monica is more like Graf than we know. Maybe she and Pete Sampras would have falllenl in love in the 1994 Open and decided to have babies a little earlier than Graf and Andre.

 

[pierceforehands]

We're not saying to look at only those 3ish years. Let's go back to my clay example:

As of the stabbing in 1993, we have Graf playing professionally for 12 years (1982-1983) and Seles playing professionally for 4 years (1989-1993).

And, we're saying that, at that point, Seles was greater on clay, having (1) won 3 French Open titles vs. 2 for Graf; and (2) beaten Graf in the 1990 & 1992 finals at age 16 & 18.

I think everyone would agree that Seles was better on clay than Graf at this point.

Then, as I noted, the question becomes whether what Graf did after the stabbing shifts what we think about Graf and Seles on clay. Put another way, does Graf reach another gear that makes us think that she's a better clay court player than Seles?

As I noted, this analysis starts with the French Open that followed the stabbing, meaning we're not freezing things at the time of the stabbing. And, as I noted, the result at the 1993 French Open was Graf coming back from a break down in the third set to beat Fernández.

One way of looking at that is to say that Graf won her third French Open and should now be seen as equal to Seles on clay b/c they both had 3 French Open titles. Another way of looking at it is to say that needing to come back from a break down in the third set to beat Fernández actually widens the gap between Graf and Seles on clay, corroborating Seles's superiority.

And then, we can continue on to consider Graf on clay in 1994 and so on and so forth.

But OP is claining they are ranking them as they are now, not on stabbing what ifs. And without stabbing what ifs there is no argument for Seles on clay. Graf has double the French Open titles, more Tier 1 titles, more clay titles, I believe a higher win percentage on clay, and the clay head to head is 2-2 at RG and 3-3 overall.

Similarily there is no argument for Seles on carpet based on how they are now, excluding stabbing what ifs. The OP did not say "without the stabbing" which would be a very good, albeit unproveable, argument. And where I could probably agree with the viewpoint on Seles winding up better in the end on clay atleast (not sure if she likely continues her carpet run or not). But that is not what is being brought up.

 

[buscemi]

But OP is claining they are ranking them as they are now, not on stabbing what ifs. And without stabbing what ifs there is no argument for Seles on clay. Graf has double the French Open titles, more Tier 1 titles, more clay titles, I believe a higher win percentage on clay, and the clay head to head is 2-2 at RG and 3-3 overall.

Similarily there is no argument for Seles on carpet based on how they are now, excluding stabbing what ifs. The OP did not say "without the stabbing" which would be a very good, albeit unproveable, argument. And where I could probably agree with the viewpoint on Seles winding up better in the end on clay atleast (not sure if she likely continues her carpet run or not). But that is not what is being brought up.

But again, IMO, that's all just about compiling numbers. And, sure, if we're going just by numbers, Graf wins.

You also note that we can't focus on "what if's." But, as I've said before, the absence of "what if's" works both ways. Sticking to what actually happened, 16-18 year old Seles won the French Open from 1990-1992, beating Graf in the finals in 1990 & 1992, right after Graf had won 8 of the last 9 Majors.

I would assert, and many would agree, that Seles had surpassed Graf on clay at that point in time.

The unanswered question is whether Graf could have taken back her clay throne had Seles not been stabbed. And the only way to answer that question in the affirmative is to use a "what if" and speculate that Steffi could have done this. We have no concrete evidence that Graf could have surpassed Seles on clay had she not been stabbed.

What we do have is Graf reclaiming her clay crown right after the stabbing by eking out a win against Fernández in the French final in 1993. If we're focused just on numbers, Graf and Seles were tied on clay at this point b/c they each had 3 French Open titles. But I would say that tight win against Fernández actually weakens Steffi's clay case.

 

[pierceforehands]

But again, IMO, that's all just about compiling numbers. And, sure, if we're going just by numbers, Graf wins.

You also note that we can't focus on "what if's." But, as I've said before, the absence of "what if's" works both ways. Sticking to what actually happened, 16-18 year old Seles won the French Open from 1990-1992, beating Graf in the finals in 1990 & 1992, right after Graf had won 8 of the last 9 Majors.

I would assert, and many would agree, that Seles had surpassed Graf on clay at that point in time.

The unanswered question is whether Graf could have taken back her clay throne had Seles not been stabbed. And the only way to answer that question in the affirmative is to use a "what if" and speculate that Steffi could have done this. We have no concrete evidence that Graf could have surpassed Seles on clay had she not been stabbed.

What we do have is Graf reclaiming her clay crown right after the stabbing by eking out a win against Fernández in the French final in 1993. If we're focused just on numbers, Graf and Seles were tied on clay at this point b/c they each had 3 French Open titles. But I would say that tight win against Fernández actually weakens Steffi's clay case.

Well first off I don't do what ifs at all, I am not like you, insideoutforehanders, and others on this site who seem obsessed with them. I believe you the one making a bunch of posts what would have happened with World War 11 era players without the war and insideout seems to start a new one each week atleast, so people like you and others here are obsessed with that kind of stuff, which is fine, but that isn't my thing. OK as fun speculation on things I will, but when ranking players hell no. So that is the first disclaimer. You won't find me doing that even for a player I like, so I am consistent.

Now sticking to what actually happened, to me it is simple. Graf has 6 French Opens, Seles has only 3, a huge difference. Graf is ahead in every single clay stat. Except for head to head, where Seles is still not ahead, merely tied. I also find the argument that Graf taking 3 sets to beat Fernandez in a RG final as weakening her case is utterly laughable. Seles had 6 different 3 setters in her 3 French Open titles, including ones with such giants as Kijimuta (the weaker sister of the Kijimuta sisters too) and Kelesi, far weaker players than Fernandez; in addition to a 2 tiebreaks match vs Meskhi. Fernandez is also the same player who lost to Seles after having a match point and making her eat a tasty bagel during her so called dominant run at the Australian Open, and who Seles barely beat 7-5 in the 3rd set, in their only RG meeting in 97, and only since Fernandez choked at the end, making a ton of errors from 5-4 up. Overall both totally dominated Fernandez in their careers, but Graf is even more dominant against her if anything. So yeah is one of the crux of your argument for Seles > Graf on clay all I have to say is LOL. And if your argument is peak Seles is superior on clay, I think that is dubious at best, and I wouldn't even agree. Graf at the 88 French for instance had a far more dominant performance through the draw than Seles did at any French Open, it isn't even particularly close in fact. Her 96 French Open title was also overall more commanding than any of Seles's 3, even with the near loss in the final, considering the total ease of the rest of the draw. So would disagree even then, but even if I did it would not overcome Graf's giant stat edge.

PS- Bud Collins who was a total Seles worshipper to pathetic degrees, and known Graf hater, and also a tennis icon whose extensive knowledge on the sport easily dwarves both of ours, all bias aside, even ranked Graf 3rd in a best clay courters of all time list he made behind Lenglen and Evert, and Seles 7th, so take that what you will.

 

[BTURNER]

But again, IMO, that's all just about compiling numbers. And, sure, if we're going just by numbers, Graf wins.

You also note that we can't focus on "what if's." But, as I've said before, the absence of "what if's" works both ways. Sticking to what actually happened, 16-18 year old Seles won the French Open from 1990-1992, beating Graf in the finals in 1990 & 1992, right after Graf had won 8 of the last 9 Majors.

I would assert, and many would agree, that Seles had surpassed Graf on clay at that point in time.

The unanswered question is whether Graf could have taken back her clay throne had Seles not been stabbed. And the only way to answer that question in the affirmative is to use a "what if" and speculate that Steffi could have done this. We have no concrete evidence that Graf could have surpassed Seles on clay had she not been stabbed.

What we do have is Graf reclaiming her clay crown right after the stabbing by eking out a win against Fernández in the French final in 1993. If we're focused just on numbers, Graf and Seles were tied on clay at this point b/c they each had 3 French Open titles. But I would say that tight win against Fernández actually weakens Steffi's clay case.

And I would say that tournament is evidence of the kind of consistency which translates into winning 22 of the grand slams she entered over 17 years, and 89.67% (90) of the singles matches in grand slam play instead of 85% for Seles , in an era where all for majors had deeper draws with more seeds than ever before and lastly 89% of her professional matches over a 18 year span on the tour instead of 83% for Seles. Graf does not have to be the deity of greatness, if no deity of greatness is needed. She has to still win the matches. Whether she would have found the level that you deem obligatory if pushed more, is not a question we can answer.

The reality is that she won every single match needed to win that title and that title is part of the 89. 36% of her RG career average instead of 87% for Seles. Every champion and every GOAT candidate has their share of Mary Jo Fernandez in their professional lives if they hang around for a normal career. I guarantee you that Seles would have her share of easier draws, and some of those matches would have been sloppier and messier than she would have liked. The point of tennis is not slaughter opponents like Fernandez with bagels, because if it were, players would be paid by the number of games won, and they are not. They are played by the matches won.

 

[martinezownsclay]

I definitely don't think there is a case to rank Seles over Graf on carpet. You could rank peak Seles higher on carpet possibly based on her 3 consecutive YEC titles, but overall ranking higher for sure no. There isn't even head to head evidence at any point to substantiate a case for Seles.

However on clay I could see a case for Seles to rank higher. Not saying I would rank her higher, I would personally still rank Graf higher, but I could atleast see a case. Graf struggled throughout her career on clay not only vs Seles but vs Sanchez and Sabatini. Seles struggled to some extent with Sabatini, losing back to back Rome finals in straight sets, and nearly losing to her at the 92 French, but not really Sanchez despite the 98 French Open final loss, which btw is her only loss ever to Sanchez on clay (her other two losses are on a hard court in 92 and on carpet in 97). They probably never hard a real peak on peak match considering Graf's peak years were 88, 89, 95 and 96, and Seles's 91 and 92, but the closest thing they had to one was the 92 final, which Seles won. Plus the 3 straight titles which Steffi never managed. That is true at the YEC too, but Seles fars short in too many other ways to have an argument there, but on clay I could see it.

 

[BTURNER]

I definitely don't think there is a case to rank Seles over Graf on carpet. You could rank peak Seles higher on carpet possibly based on her 3 consecutive YEC titles, but overall ranking higher for sure no. There isn't even head to head evidence at any point to substantiate a case for Seles.

However on clay I could see a case for Seles to rank higher. Not saying I would rank her higher, I would personally still rank Graf higher, but I could atleast see a case. Graf struggled throughout her career on clay not only vs Seles but vs Sanchez and Sabatini. Seles struggled to some extent with Sabatini, losing back to back Rome finals in straight sets, and nearly losing to her at the 92 French, but not really Sanchez despite the 98 French Open final loss, which btw is her only loss ever to Sanchez on clay (her other two losses are on a hard court in 92 and on carpet in 97). They probably never hard a real peak on peak match considering Graf's peak years were 88, 89, 95 and 96, and Seles's 91 and 92, but the closest thing they had to one was the 92 final, which Seles won. Plus the 3 straight titles which Steffi never managed. That is true at the YEC too, but Seles fars short in too many other ways to have an argument there, but on clay I could see it.

I am not a believer in the 'strong era' 'weak era' premise that so often exudes its toxin over this forum, but I do believe eras that have their strengths and they have their weaknesses. The Graf/ Seles/ Sabatini/ Seles/ Sanchez/ era was the strongest deepest clay era I can imagine, not just because they all intimately knew clay from the time they left diapers behind, but because they were all so very different in their tactics, stroke production etc. All these rivalries were all at their most compelling on clay.