Only 4 More Days for Real 10U Open Level Tennis

[LMK5]

The green ball is fast approaching come January 1. Thankfully my daughter is turning 11 in February, so the new green ball policy only affects her for one month. She was invited to the satellite masters in late January but declined because she doesn't want to play with the green ball.

I know quite a few outstanding 7, 8, and 9-year-old kids who will no longer be able to play to their full ability. The speed and power they developed will be neutralized, by design, by the green ball. What do they do now? Are they really supposed to put aside all the hours of training with the currently-mandated yellow ball and backtrack to the green ball, only to have to go right back to the yellow ball at a later date? Lack of fairness aside, how does this aid the development of some of the most promising kids? Is having them play with 12-year-olds really the answer?

If I have a talented 10-year-old and she plays with the green ball for one year, then goes back to the yellow ball when she turns 11, will that player really be better off than if they had just continued with the yellow ball? Does anybody really believe that?

In talking to our USTA section junior competition leader, I tried to drum home the point that the fatal flaw in the policy is that it is age-based rather than skill-based. It assumes that every 11-year-old can handle the yellow ball but no 10-year-old can. Starting on January 1, we will see 12U novice tournaments played with a yellow ball, and 10-year-old open players using a green ball!

Interestingly, when watching Tennis Channel Academy do a report on the USTA Development Center in Carson, CA, I didn't see any of the coaches using the green ball with the young kids. Could it be that the coaches are putting the priority on skill rather than age?

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

answer is simple 25% of U12 is played with green and round robin,

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

we played in a "REAL" U10 tournament and the yellow balls were used making them really green :mrgreen:

 

[slice bh compliment]

I like your point about making it less about age and more about level. Preach on. And tell us more about your child's training regimen from age 7 to the present.

Some other thoughts:

1. This affects your kid for one month. Hopefully you can find something awesome, fun and productive to make up for that one cool tournament. I shed a tear for the USTA's GAP generation. But for one month?

2. Two of my children are affected by this. One will 'have' to play green 10s for about a year (until playing 12s is better), the other for about 2 yrs. One actually HAD to play a Yellow Ball sanctioned 10s tournament so she could qualify for green ball 10s...so she could avoid orange 60. But of course, that is a can of worms the USTA was not willing to open.

3. Mandating orange 60 beyond the beginner/novice level is the real problem here. The 60 ft ct is awesome for giving a beginner court sense and a feel for a good contact point. The green balls (in my opinion) encourage more creative all-court play and less pushing. But to mandate these is a problem.

4. What are your problems with the green ball? Reaction time? I feel it can be a great part of a kid's development if you use yellow at times, too. I LOVE rallying and doing drills with green balls. You must tell us more.

5. Both of my under 10s have played lots of green ball tournaments already. THe older one has played lots of yellows. There will be alternate circuits (depending on where you live). I am not too worried about it. I am at least going to give it a chance. When the time comes to play up into 12s, fine. But until then, what is the rush?

6. We were surprised to hear that one non-sanctioned 10s tournament was orange on a 60. They told us when we checked in. It was not listed on the site. One decent player's parents defaulted him and stormed off. The other families stayed (after all, this was just a one-day local tournament on a nasty day on sweet indoor courts). After an awkward start and a little acclimation to the sets to 4 and the small court/soft balls, the four experienced kids made it to the semis. My kid had an awesome match in the semi, then lost an awesome 3 setter in the final. It was about the same result that would have been with green, yellow or red balls on a full court. They did not get a lot of moving and retrieving done, but these kids came to net more than ever and the tennis was just great in the semi and final.

The experience taught my whole family that if orange 60 could be a good thing in small doses at a good level, then green is good.

7. As far as I can see the reason they make it age based rather than skill based has to do with physiology rather than proficiency. And they cannot do height/weight class tennis, hahah.

8. I did not see a lot of under 10s in that Tennis Channel piece on USTA Playdev. Those were all full-court players, clearly. Do you know some of them? Are they under 10? I am absolutely positive that the suits would mandate the elite 10s to train with greens for green tournaments.

 

[LMK5]

I like your point about making it less about age and more about level. Preach on. And tell us more about your child's training regimen from age 7 to the present.

Some other thoughts:

1. This affects your kid for one month. Hopefully you can find something awesome, fun and productive to make up for that one cool tournament. I shed a tear for the USTA's GAP generation. But for one month?

2. Two of my children are affected by this. One will 'have' to play green 10s for about a year (until playing 12s is better), the other for about 2 yrs. One actually HAD to play a Yellow Ball sanctioned 10s tournament so she could qualify for green ball 10s...so she could avoid orange 60. But of course, that is a can of worms the USTA was not willing to open.

3. Mandating orange 60 beyond the beginner/novice level is the real problem here. The 60 ft ct is awesome for giving a beginner court sense and a feel for a good contact point. The green balls (in my opinion) encourage more creative all-court play and less pushing. But to mandate these is a problem.

4. What are your problems with the green ball? Reaction time? I feel it can be a great part of a kid's development if you use yellow at times, too. I LOVE rallying and doing drills with green balls. You must tell us more.

5. Both of my under 10s have played lots of green ball tournaments already. THe older one has played lots of yellows. There will be alternate circuits (depending on where you live). I am not too worried about it. I am at least going to give it a chance. When the time comes to play up into 12s, fine. But until then, what is the rush?

6. We were surprised to hear that one non-sanctioned 10s tournament was orange on a 60. They told us when we checked in. It was not listed on the site. One decent player's parents defaulted him and stormed off. The other families stayed (after all, this was just a one-day local tournament on a nasty day on sweet indoor courts). After an awkward start and a little acclimation to the sets to 4 and the small court/soft balls, the four experienced kids made it to the semis. My kid had an awesome match in the semi, then lost an awesome 3 setter in the final. It was about the same result that would have been with green, yellow or red balls on a full court. They did not get a lot of moving and retrieving done, but these kids came to net more than ever and the tennis was just great in the semi and final.

The experience taught my whole family that if orange 60 could be a good thing in small doses at a good level, then green is good.

7. As far as I can see the reason they make it age based rather than skill based has to do with physiology rather than proficiency. And they cannot do height/weight class tennis, hahah.

8. I did not see a lot of under 10s in that Tennis Channel piece on USTA Playdev. Those were all full-court players, clearly. Do you know some of them? Are they under 10? I am absolutely positive that the suits would mandate the elite 10s to train with greens for green tournaments.

As I mentioned, my kids aren't affected because they turn 11 early in the year.

It sounds like you're trying to bob and weave your way through the new policy, but are stopping short of actually agreeing with it. Where do you stand? I haven't talked with one USPTA certified pro who agrees with it for kids older than 8.

Keep in mind that as of today, the yellow ball is mandated for all tournament play. In 4 days, new balls will be mandated. What about next year or the year after? How adaptable do we need to be?

What we do know is that many people have paid lots of money and devoted lots of time to having their kids play the game the way it was mandated. They are now being told to play the game using balls that are designed to shave the edge off the very skills they have acquired. I don't see how this keeps more kids in the game or enhances development.

If the purpose of all this is "Quickstart" as the name suggests, I can see introducing new balls and equipment that will have kids learn faster and more enjoyably. But I don't see why this new push needs to affect the kids who are well past this stage and playing in open level tournaments. They've already gotten to where you ultimately want the Quickstart kids to be!

Once again, we need to answer the question: If a child comes off the yellow ball and goes to green, will they be better off when they ultimately come back to yellow or would they have been better off staying with yellow? If this question can't be answered, then there is no logical reason why you would force 10U open players to abandon their present path.

 

[slice bh compliment]

1. As I mentioned, my kids aren't affected because they turn 11 early in the year.

2. It sounds like you're trying to bob and weave your way through the new policy, but are stopping short of actually agreeing with it. Where do you stand?

3. I haven't talked with one USPTA certified pro who agrees with it for kids older than 8.

4. Keep in mind that as of today, the yellow ball is mandated for all tournament play. In 4 days, new balls will be mandated. What about next year or the year after?

5. How adaptable do we need to be?
...
6. I don't see how this keeps more kids in the game or enhances development.

7. If the purpose of all this is "Quickstart" as the name suggests, I can see introducing new balls and equipment that will have kids learn faster and more enjoyably. But I don't see why this new push needs to affect the kids who are well past this stage and playing in open level tournaments. They've already gotten to where you ultimately want the Quickstart kids to be!

8. Once again, we need to answer the question: If a child comes off the yellow ball and goes to green, will they be better off when they ultimately come back to yellow or would they have been better off staying with yellow? If this question can't be answered, then there is no logical reason why you would force 10U open players to abandon their present path.

I want to address all of your points, so I numbered them and responded by number. Forgive me if some of the points are already in my first post (post #4, above).

1. Even though your daughter is not affected, you too the time to start this thread. Thank you.

2. This is where I stand. Like many teaching pros, coaches and dads (I am a former college player, satellite player, and coach..and a current dad), I agree with some of it and I disagree with other elements of it (mandating red/orange, etc).

3. You have not talked with enough pros.

4. Incorrect. There are tons of alternative tournaments.

5. I think the whole green thing is here to stay. I do think rules will adapt and so will people. Some people will get shafted. The beauty is that kids, especially skilled kids with flexible, positive parents will adapt well.

6. I see it. But there is no actual proof. This is one of the reasons I am honestly not sure about it all. I just know that having my kids play green is better than orange and better than 12s. And mixing in lots of green and yellow training and some non-sanctioned yellow is the way to go.

7. QuickStart was a good name. It speaks to the beginners both in name and in purpose. I see how foam balls, red balls and orange balls are awesome for beginning groups. I've seen good strokes come out of it. I've seen horrid strokes come out of premature yellow, too.

8. I agree with you. I thought it was frustrating to go from green to yellow then back to green. Then I realized my kids were not frustrated. They just wanted to play and they do not mind the green balls at all. In fact, they play really well with it.

I am sure the USTA have done lots of research (and spent a LOT of time and money on that research), but without case studies, the message is lost. I think the mandates are hokey and I smell a conspiracy. All the way up to The Illuminati, the White House and Mamaroneck Avenue.

Enjoy your thread! I hope you find your voice and some peace with it. I wish your kids continued success in tennis, no matter the level and the psi inside the ball or the color of the felt.

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

I am a USPTA and I support 10 and under, I also support the green ball for the 10's but too bad it is now in some of the low level 12's. All the USPTA I know now support the new initiative, even the over 60 year old USPTA geysers

 

[slice bh compliment]

...
It sounds like you're trying to bob and weave your way through the new policy, but are stopping short of actually agreeing with it. Where do you stand? I haven't talked with one USPTA certified pro who agrees with it for kids older than 8.....

I think it was F.Scott Fitzgerald who said that someone with a brain can hold opposing viewpoints and see the merits of both sides. If you want to call that bobbing and weaving, cool.

I feel I am learning...always learning.
You seem to have it all figured out having done your research with the experts in your circle.

I do agree that most 6 yr olds ought to play orange 60 and most 8 yr olds ought to exit the orange 60 ft ct and step into the green full court. But maybe that's just me. I do not know. I do not pretend to know.

3 person thread so far. Maybe things will get going here soon. If not, no big.
Well, take care. Off for some actual tennis.

 

[Dadof10s]

Count me as another supporter for orange and green balls. I have not seen lots of the 7,8, and 9 year olds who do great with yellow balls like the original poster has, a few but not a lot. The matches I have seen are very silly, with lots of moonies and bad looking technique. Even most of the 10 and 11 year olds look to me like they could use more time getting their technique right before playing with the yellow balls.

 

[LMK5]

Count me as another supporter for orange and green balls. I have not seen lots of the 7,8, and 9 year olds who do great with yellow balls like the original poster has, a few but not a lot. The matches I have seen are very silly, with lots of moonies and bad looking technique. Even most of the 10 and 11 year olds look to me like they could use more time getting their technique right before playing with the yellow balls.

The policy as of now will allow the 10-year-olds you've seen with poor technique use the green ball, but will not allow the 11-year-old who has bad technique to use it.

That's the problem with the policy--age-based instead of skill-based.

 

[LMK5]

I want to address all of your points, so I numbered them and responded by number. Forgive me if some of the points are already in my first post (post #4, above).

1. Even though your daughter is not affected, you too the time to start this thread. Thank you.

2. This is where I stand. Like many teaching pros, coaches and dads (I am a former college player, satellite player, and coach..and a current dad), I agree with some of it and I disagree with other elements of it (mandating red/orange, etc).

3. You have not talked with enough pros.

4. Incorrect. There are tons of alternative tournaments.

5. I think the whole green thing is here to stay. I do think rules will adapt and so will people. Some people will get shafted. The beauty is that kids, especially skilled kids with flexible, positive parents will adapt well.

6. I see it. But there is no actual proof. This is one of the reasons I am honestly not sure about it all. I just know that having my kids play green is better than orange and better than 12s. And mixing in lots of green and yellow training and some non-sanctioned yellow is the way to go.

7. QuickStart was a good name. It speaks to the beginners both in name and in purpose. I see how foam balls, red balls and orange balls are awesome for beginning groups. I've seen good strokes come out of it. I've seen horrid strokes come out of premature yellow, too.

8. I agree with you. I thought it was frustrating to go from green to yellow then back to green. Then I realized my kids were not frustrated. They just wanted to play and they do not mind the green balls at all. In fact, they play really well with it.

I am sure the USTA have done lots of research (and spent a LOT of time and money on that research), but without case studies, the message is lost. I think the mandates are hokey and I smell a conspiracy. All the way up to The Illuminati, the White House and Mamaroneck Avenue.

Enjoy your thread! I hope you find your voice and some peace with it. I wish your kids continued success in tennis, no matter the level and the psi inside the ball or the color of the felt.

Thanks for your thorough response.

In the end, I still feel that the policy could have been more flexible to accommodate the advanced players while still benefiting the beginners and drawing new players.

 

[Dadof10s]

The policy as of now will allow the 10-year-olds you've seen with poor technique use the green ball, but will not allow the 11-year-old who has bad technique to use it.

That's the problem with the policy--age-based instead of skill-based.

Very good point, I did not think of it like that.

 

[gplracer]

What we do know is that many people have paid lots of money and devoted lots of time to having their kids play the game the way it was mandated. They are now being told to play the game using balls that are designed to shave the edge off the very skills they have acquired. I don't see how this keeps more kids in the game or enhances development.

If the purpose of all this is "Quickstart" as the name suggests, I can see introducing new balls and equipment that will have kids learn faster and more enjoyably. But I don't see why this new push needs to affect the kids who are well past this stage and playing in open level tournaments. They've already gotten to where you ultimately want the Quickstart kids to be!

Once again, we need to answer the question: If a child comes off the yellow ball and goes to green, will they be better off when they ultimately come back to yellow or would they have been better off staying with yellow? If this question can't be answered, then there is no logical reason why you would force 10U open players to abandon their present path.

You say people have paid lots of money to have their kids play tennis the way it is mandated. Well.... it has been known for over a year that quickstart is coming. Here in the south it started last January. Your child's coach would have to have been blind to not see this coming. My 9 year old son has played 90 tournament matches in the last year. I would love to see green ball in the 10s but it is only orange ball here. That is great for the masses but not great for the few kids who mature at an early age and are ready to move past orange balls. Yeah they can play up in the 12s but can a 9 year old really beat an 11 or 12 year old? An exceptional 9 year old is not going to beat a decent 12 year old. The physical differences are too great.

I do not know about the rules in your area but I thought the whole country was going to orange ball in the 10s. My 9 year old played 90 tournament matches in the last year. I would love to see green ball in the 10s but in this area it is only orange ball. The problem is that is good for the masses but not good for the small percentage who have been playing a lot and are big kids.

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

The policy as of now will allow the 10-year-olds you've seen with poor technique use the green ball, but will not allow the 11-year-old who has bad technique to use it.

That's the problem with the policy--age-based instead of skill-based.

an 11 year old can use green in the U12, only it is not available everywhere at every weekend

example in January we have 4 out of 16 (25%) green BALL U12 TOURNAMENTS

http://tennislink.usta.com/TOURNAME...ineEntry=&DrawsSheets=&UserTime=&Sanctioned=0

 

[CROB410]

Right, the bigger issue is for 9ish year olds who have been playing full court with green. They either switch to the orange, 60 ft 10U or play up to 12U. I went to watch a green 10U yesterday in CT (Pro Tour where are you located exactly?) and I was listening to the parents convos and it seemed people were debating what to do as of next month ie switch back to orange or forge ahead with green. And right -- your pro should have told you this was coming, it certainly wasn't a secret. I think the green balls are great and wish in addition to the 12U green there could still be some 10U greens for the younger kids who can play full court and want to compete.

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

The advanced-top 9 year olds are already playing up so it is not a big deal because the advanced 11-12 are not playing green, they are playing level 6. The issue is with the intermediate 9. they can work on their strokes and movement on 60 and get some confidence in winning and then slip into the low level U12 using green every now and then, and play with the advance 9-10 who are playing green in the U12

you were probably in Milford, there were many 9-10 year olds there playing the last green ball tournament in U10

as for U10 green I am with you but the USTA is slowly eliminating ranking for U10. So if you are playing Full court with green you are playing in the 12 and getting ranking points in the 12 only. Which in a way is not fair for the kids playing yellow ball in the 12's, I would think.

There are U11 green ball devision in some sections.

 

[seminoleG]

Well as a SoFla Dad I see nothing good in the 10U, except the $$$$ to the Clubs.

At the Florida State 10s there was outstanding regulation tennis. Most of these 10s ~90% play 12s and some are doing well (Playing Regionals/Sectionals/Nationals 12s). For the others they need to improve and a step sideways in Green Ball is a big gamble. That said in a year or two we will see.

My Guess is the US Players will look great until they start playing ITF's @12, and it will be a few years to catch up.

 

[Soianka]

The matches I have seen are very silly, with lots of moonies and bad looking technique.

Yes! ........

 

[gplracer]

I live in the southern section. All 10u tournaments are orange like everywhere else. Down here there are 5 levels of tournaments. The bottom two levels in the 12s are green ball for Georgia, South Carolina, and North Carolina. That means ALL of the level 4 and 5 state tournaments are green ball. This rule does not apply to southern level tournaments. They are usually state level 3 and above.

Pro tour I looked at that link of jr. tournaments. Is there really only 4 for the whole month of January? Georgia has 27 for the month of January. Also down here ranking points in the 12s also count for the 10s.

 

[BMC9670]

Count me in for skill-based categories rather than age-based. I support whatever works for each kids development, which means different things for different situations. Not all kids develop at the same age/rate and not all parents/coaches have the same goals. Choices based on level, not age is best, IMHO.

 

[gplracer]

Count me in for skill-based categories rather than age-based. I support whatever works for each kids development, which means different things for different situations. Not all kids develop at the same age/rate and not all parents/coaches have the same goals. Choices based on level, not age is best, IMHO.

Well put. Too many times kids play with someone who cannot keep enough balls in to make them play tough or they have too many winners hit by them. It is great when you find other players who have similar skills and they push each other to play better.

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

Please define a skill based category for kids who use the red ball, then orange ball, then green ball, then yellow ball? Please define skill categories for players in their teens? Also the skill levels of different sections? Are the skill level of a 10 year old the same in NE vs the FL or GA? This is a very gray area. The USTA is having enough trouble with age based and kids cheating on their ages, they do not want to open up a new can of worms. The USTA is doing away with the ranking system for U10 so the kids will have fun and not have so much pressure. If they go with a skill based system, the lower skilled U10 kids will feel inferior and quit. They are having a hard time dealing with the different types of ball, they do not need to add another layer of pressure and confusion. SANDBAGGING DO NOT EVEN WANT TO GO THERE.

The junior ITF has strict age based system.

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

Well put. Too many times kids play with someone who cannot keep enough balls in to make them play tough or they have too many winners hit by them. It is great when you find other players who have similar skills and they push each other to play better.

the usta already has level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8, level 8 is the easiest and lowest, how do you want to break that down? level 7.5 and 8.5 and 9?

that is what is so great about the colored balls, they level the playing fields even just for a little.

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

Count me in for skill-based categories rather than age-based. I support whatever works for each kids development, which means different things for different situations. Not all kids develop at the same age/rate and not all parents/coaches have the same goals. Choices based on level, not age is best, IMHO.

we have a delusional wanna be 10 year old who plays only level 6 and level 5 ( when there is not enough players the qualify) and frowns/looks down upon the other kids who play level 7, and the kid has been loosing 6-0 6-0 for a year in these categories. Is this the skill based level you want? to get into level 5 you need to have enough ranking points, do you want that for the U10 kids do we need this kind of pressure of U10 kids?

 

[seminoleG]

we have a delusional wanna be 10 year old who plays only level 6 and level 5 ( when there is not enough players the qualify) and frowns/looks down upon the other kids who play level 7, and the kid has been loosing 6-0 6-0 for a year in these categories. Is this the skill based level you want? to get into level 5 you need to have enough ranking points, do you want that for the U10 kids do we need this kind of pressure of U10 kids?

No but we need a system that matches players in competition with similar skill levels. My Plan:

First you seperate Juniors into 2 Catagories: Tournament and Futures.

Tournament much like now EXCEPT like Europe NO PLAY UP. If your 12s you play 12s until you age up and so on. In Florida if the 12s stayed in the 12s and not the 14s/16s even a Level 6 or 5 would be outstanding.

New Junior Division Futures: Orange/Red/Green Ball NO AGE restriction. SO a 14 year old playing Green Ball could be playing a 10 year old.

UNTIL you earn enough Points to Graduate to your natural age in Tournament division. You'll have to earn enough points (USTA figures this based on statistical models) in your Tournament Division to continue to play otherwise BACK down to Green Ball.

Now the Green ball tournament Draw is computerized to match strongest against strongest and weakest against weakest. Points are awarded but for the weakest the points would be 1/10th that of winning a match in the strongest. ALL OF THIS WOULD BE PROGRAMMED BY COMPUTER.

Key to the differences in Sections is the statistical model that the program would use. In theory each tournament would have several levels of competition and as the weakest get better and win they play stronger competition. Slightly better. Next Tournament they'd start out higher seed. It would look at scores in matches and common opponents to ensure you get like skilled competitive matches.

Basically you are seeding the whole field in the draw. For a 16 would look like

lines 1-4 play for one qtr final spot Seeds 1-4
lines 5-8 play for one qtr final spot Seeds 5-8
lines 9-12 ......
lines 12-16......

As it stand would line 16 the weakest player have a chance in the current system? Depends on the LUCK of the Draw.

We are past luck, and hope we need to put more rigor in the system.

 

[BMC9670]

No but we need a system that matches players in competition with similar skill levels. My Plan:

First you seperate Juniors into 2 Catagories: Tournament and Futures.

Tournament much like now EXCEPT like Europe NO PLAY UP. If your 12s you play 12s until you age up and so on. In Florida if the 12s stayed in the 12s and not the 14s/16s even a Level 6 or 5 would be outstanding.

New Junior Division Futures: Orange/Red/Green Ball NO AGE restriction. SO a 14 year old playing Green Ball could be playing a 10 year old.

UNTIL you earn enough Points to Graduate to your natural age in Tournament division. You'll have to earn enough points (USTA figures this based on statistical models) in your Tournament Division to continue to play otherwise BACK down to Green Ball.

Now the Green ball tournament Draw is computerized to match strongest against strongest and weakest against weakest. Points are awarded but for the weakest the points would be 1/10th that of winning a match in the strongest. ALL OF THIS WOULD BE PROGRAMMED BY COMPUTER.

Key to the differences in Sections is the statistical model that the program would use. In theory each tournament would have several levels of competition and as the weakest get better and win they play stronger competition. Slightly better. Next Tournament they'd start out higher seed. It would look at scores in matches and common opponents to ensure you get like skilled competitive matches.

Basically you are seeding the whole field in the draw. For a 16 would look like

lines 1-4 play for one qtr final spot Seeds 1-4
lines 5-8 play for one qtr final spot Seeds 5-8
lines 9-12 ......
lines 12-16......

As it stand would line 16 the weakest player have a chance in the current system? Depends on the LUCK of the Draw.

We are past luck, and hope we need to put more rigor in the system.

This is more or less what I was thinking - I just wish at 8, 9, 10 there wasn't an emphasis on ranking points and winning to "get into" the next level. Parents and coaches should do what's best for their kid to either develop or have fun, whatever is their goal.

The idea is simply to get kids playing kids their own ability on whatever "ball" is appropriate. The current system, at least in our section, leaves too many "intermediate" 9 and 10 year olds between orange 10s and regulation 12s. Wish we had green ball like some of you in your sections.

 

[seminoleG]

The idea is simply to get kids playing kids their own ability on whatever "ball" is appropriate.

Yes, simply put. Spot on. I agree that points are a waste, but how else do you group kids.

At the Nike Tennis camp day 1 they let the kids play for about an hour and the head coach rated them. 3.5,4.0,4.5...... Then grouped them for the 5 days. That is a subjective but good way.

I don't know.

 

[gplracer]

No but we need a system that matches players in competition with similar skill levels. My Plan:

First you seperate Juniors into 2 Catagories: Tournament and Futures.

Tournament much like now EXCEPT like Europe NO PLAY UP. If your 12s you play 12s until you age up and so on. In Florida if the 12s stayed in the 12s and not the 14s/16s even a Level 6 or 5 would be outstanding.

New Junior Division Futures: Orange/Red/Green Ball NO AGE restriction. SO a 14 year old playing Green Ball could be playing a 10 year old.

UNTIL you earn enough Points to Graduate to your natural age in Tournament division. You'll have to earn enough points (USTA figures this based on statistical models) in your Tournament Division to continue to play otherwise BACK down to Green Ball.

Now the Green ball tournament Draw is computerized to match strongest against strongest and weakest against weakest. Points are awarded but for the weakest the points would be 1/10th that of winning a match in the strongest. ALL OF THIS WOULD BE PROGRAMMED BY COMPUTER.

Key to the differences in Sections is the statistical model that the program would use. In theory each tournament would have several levels of competition and as the weakest get better and win they play stronger competition. Slightly better. Next Tournament they'd start out higher seed. It would look at scores in matches and common opponents to ensure you get like skilled competitive matches.

Basically you are seeding the whole field in the draw. For a 16 would look like

lines 1-4 play for one qtr final spot Seeds 1-4
lines 5-8 play for one qtr final spot Seeds 5-8
lines 9-12 ......
lines 12-16......

As it stand would line 16 the weakest player have a chance in the current system? Depends on the LUCK of the Draw.

We are past luck, and hope we need to put more rigor in the system.

It is hard to come up with something that works for all players. You plan has a lot of good points but would this be sectional or state tournaments? Here in the south all states are not equal. Georgia has far more players than South Carolina or Alabama. Also the competition in Atlanta is very strong. Sometimes it is much easier to do well in tournaments that are far away from Atlanta. Issues like this confuse things. I think the orange ball is great but in the higher sectional levels in the 10s green ball should be used. Then orange ball is still there for beginners playing lower level tournaments. Our new system which has the bottom two levels in the 12s playing green ball is great. The players who are better and do not want to play green ball can play state level 3 and above where the regular ball is being used.

Pro Tour - I realize that the USTA has different levels and different color balls. My son has played a long time with the orange ball and a 25" racket. Frankly I think it was really good for him with regard to stroke development and learning how to work the point. Colored balls do level the playing field. There have been several matches that he played that were real close that might not have been as close on a full size court. In my post I was only referring to a practice match my son played. It was nothing more. No I do not expect it to be broken down into 7.5 and 8.5.....

 

[seminoleG]

First U11 Green ball event for USTA Florida. NO GIRLS, 4 Boys. $40. also ZERO girls, 3 Boys for 10U orange ball.

 

[slice bh compliment]

Does this mean they are all just chillin' this time of year? Or they are all playing up in 12s?

 

[nctennismom]

Count me in for skill-based categories rather than age-based. I support whatever works for each kids development, which means different things for different situations. Not all kids develop at the same age/rate and not all parents/coaches have the same goals. Choices based on level, not age is best, IMHO.

Kids playing with other kids at their skill level - this is how quickstart should work. My daughter is struggling to find other kids her age - just turned nine - to play with at her orange ball level. What do you you do???

 

[BMC9670]

Kids playing with other kids at their skill level - this is how quickstart should work. My daughter is struggling to find other kids her age - just turned nine - to play with at her orange ball level. What do you you do???

Well, I meant that it's more about ability than age. If your daughter is 9 and on orange ball - there is nothing wrong with her playing a 7 year old on orange or a 12 year old on orange if the skills match up. Same with green-ball. Same with regulation.

The thing with orange and green is, the balls level the "physical" playing field, so kids of different age, size, strength, and speed can play each other more evenly.

With regulation, the opposite is true. For example, my son, also 9, is an intermediate player - been through orange balls and green balls and now plays mostly regulation. However, with no 10U regulation (kids his own ability on the same ball), he has to "play up" into 12U, where kids are older, faster and stronger. The ball doesn't level the playing field like the colored balls.

So, long story short, if your daughter is on orange, find other players as good or a bit better playing orange and don't worry so much about the age.

 

[seminoleG]

Does this mean they are all just chillin' this time of year? Or they are all playing up in 12s?

Well I always look at same event the prior year. Overall tournament draws are smaller (economics) but this U11 I feel has just not engaged the consumers.

I suggested USTA have a Jamoree. Invite the Top U11s and cover hotel. Bring a few pros and give away bags, Raquets balls. Roll out U11 the right way

Instead they list a few tournaments, in bold put no points and charge $40+.


Thus they get nobody, and I'll bet it continues.

 

[LMK5]

Well I always look at same event the prior year. Overall tournament draws are smaller (economics) but this U11 I feel has just not engaged the consumers.

I suggested USTA have a Jamoree. Invite the Top U11s and cover hotel. Bring a few pros and give away bags, Raquets balls. Roll out U11 the right way

Instead they list a few tournaments, in bold put no points and charge $40+.


Thus they get nobody, and I'll bet it continues.

Here in SoCal, the SCTA holds a satellite masters tournament every January, inviting all the satellite tournament winners from the prevous year. Last year, using the yellow ball, they attracted 27 girls in the 8/10 year old division. This year, imposing the green ball, only 18 have accepted their invitations.

 

[gplracer]

It is my understanding that 11u is gone. The USTA said it would not support it because it was too costly to upgrade the computer system.

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

First U11 Green ball event for USTA Florida. NO GIRLS, 4 Boys. $40. also ZERO girls, 3 Boys for 10U orange ball.

first orange ball tournament in 2012 in NE almost 20 players , entry fee $28, so much for not many people will sign up theory :roll:

http://tennislink.usta.com/TOURNAMENTS/TournamentHome_New/Tournament.aspx?T=118154

 

[BMC9670]

It is my understanding that 11u is gone. The USTA said it would not support it because it was too costly to upgrade the computer system.

I guess they need to bank a few more million for the next CEO...

 

[seminoleG]

first orange ball tournament in 2012 in NE almost 20 players , entry fee $28, so much for not many people will sign up theory :roll:

http://tennislink.usta.com/TOURNAMENTS/TournamentHome_New/Tournament.aspx?T=118154

Caveat: I was referencing Florida. I have no experience with any other region. Florida has several other U11 events in the next2 weeks 0, not one applicant.

I can only compare to what past participation has been. Florida U11 ain't selling. Now if other recreational regions have nice draws good for them, but how many hi performance juniors come from the NE

Remember the premise of these changes was to develop juniors and....make $$$ for USTA CENTERS etc.....

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

Now the Green ball tournament Draw is computerized to match strongest against strongest and weakest against weakest. Points are awarded but for the weakest the points would be 1/10th that of winning a match in the strongest. ALL OF THIS WOULD BE PROGRAMMED BY COMPUTER.

we already have U12 green ball where strongest are matched against strongest and weakest against weakest.

Caveat: I was referencing Florida. I have no experience with any other region. Florida has several other U11 events in the next2 weeks 0, not one applicant.

I can only compare to what past participation has been. Florida U11 ain't selling. Now if other recreational regions have nice draws good for them, but how many hi performance juniors come from the NE

Remember the premise of these changes was to develop juniors and....make $$$ for USTA CENTERS etc.....

Nolan paige, frenkel ( orange bowl winner), Lord, are all blue chips and are from recreational region

come up to NE and pay $30 per hour just for the court and in freezing weather and drive more than an hour to find competition, and compare that to the population in CA, GA, FL with free court time all year round with great competition at every corner, you folks should be doing a whole lot better compared to the rest of the world

 

[seminoleG]

we already have U12 green ball where strongest are matched against strongest and weakest against weakest.



Nolan paige, frenkel ( orange bowl winner), Lord, are all blue chips and are from recreational region

Even a Clock is right 2 times a day

come up to NE and pay $30 per hour just for the court and in freezing weather and drive more than an hour to find competition, and compare that to the population in CA, GA, FL with free court time all year round with great competition at every corner, you folks should be doing a whole lot better compared to the rest of the world

You make my point. The Shoe doesn't fit for all the REGIONS so why force a system wide change.

In Georgia they had a Qualie for a spot into their Regional (32 Draw) Great Idea. Other region saves a spot for winners of other top local tourney's.

Green Ball for U11 may work lots of places but from the Consumer support I see in the participation it is Failing in Florida.

Now in the NE certain areas have Tournaments less often, and down here you can drive 45min to 2-3 Tourneys every weekend. So the Consumers in SoFla have a choice and maybe they don't in the NE. Given the schedule of tournaments I see in Tennislink the bigger draw for Green may be a result of just fewer events.

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

You make my point. The Shoe doesn't fit for all the REGIONS so why force a system wide change.

In Georgia they had a Qualie for a spot into their Regional (32 Draw) Great Idea. Other region saves a spot for winners of other top local tourney's.

Green Ball for U11 may work lots of places but from the Consumer support I see in the participation it is Failing in Florida.

Now in the NE certain areas have Tournaments less often, and down here you can drive 45min to 2-3 Tourneys every weekend. So the Consumers in SoFla have a choice and maybe they don't in the NE. Given the schedule of tournaments I see in Tennislink the bigger draw for Green may be a result of just fewer events.

that is the point they want less tournaments (TCF) , with bigger draw, it is more fun and you meet more people,

you just started U11 green and you are calling it a failure give it one year at least.

This is what the rest of the world is doing

http://beta.itftennis.com/about/new...liminated-from-ten-and-under-competition.aspx

 

[seminoleG]

that is the point they want less tournaments (TCF) , with bigger draw, it is more fun and you meet more people,

you just started U11 green and you are calling it a failure give it one year at least.

This is what the rest of the world is doing

http://beta.itftennis.com/about/new...liminated-from-ten-and-under-competition.aspx

Message boards are just a bad way to get a point across. We are in agreement mostly. Wife grew up in Europe and we got kids from UK that train with us so we know Green Ball. My daughter will spend 6 weeks this summer and will play mostly Green.

My issue is how the USTA rolled it out in Florida. Not until the Parents got wind of the whole 10 and Under did they consider another option. Then at the Florida State 10s Closed they give us a letter talking about Green Ball with no information on Who, What When , and Where?

They post the updated Tennislink Schedule in Mid Dec (very late) with Something called U11 Green Ball, and charge $45 for SINGLE ELIMINATION.

Why isn't it Round Robin then I would enter every one. Maybe I should email, the USTA Florida Folks. Here is the Information from the Tournament's page. A level 6 Green Ball? Go figure.


Starting in 2012 there will be 11 and under age division for players making the transition from the orange ball 60 foot court to the yellow ball 78 foot court. The 11 and under tournaments use the 78 foot court and the 25% less pressure green dot ball. We are very excited to offer this to the players that want to play on the full court, but may not be ready for the yellow ball.

USTA Florida "Super Series" Tournament is a Level 6 Florida tournament. More details

 

[gplracer]

Interesting the USTA told GA no 11 and under green ball division.....

 

[tennis5]

we already have U12 green ball where strongest are matched against strongest and weakest against weakest.



Nolan paige, frenkel ( orange bowl winner), Lord, are all blue chips and are from recreational region

come up to NE and pay $30 per hour just for the court and in freezing weather and drive more than an hour to find competition, and compare that to the population in CA, GA, FL with free court time all year round with great competition at every corner, you folks should be doing a whole lot better compared to the rest of the world

Court time is even more expensive in the NE, and hard to book.

Why? Limited courts and the adults want to play too.

Oh, and last year, one of the bubbles collapsed from all the snow.

An hour drive to a tournament?

Most times that is 3 hours, and you have to stay over.

Gosh, the southern states really should blow the Northern states out of the water.

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

Court time is even more expensive in the NE, and hard to book.

Why? Limited courts and the adults want to play too.

Oh, and last year, one of the bubbles collapsed from all the snow.

An hour drive to a tournament?

Most times that is 3 hours, and you have to stay over.

Gosh, the southern states really should blow the Northern states out of the water.

I was being conservative, did not want to scare everyone what it is really like in NE. In NYC indoor courts are over $100 an hour.

Bubble heck we had a whole roof collapse because of the snow. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93lf2rxFl7U

A top NE 10 year old player went down to FL (rick macci, everts etc..) and saw many of the U10 competition and said they were about the same in terms of level only there were more players down there.

 

[seminoleG]

A top NE 10 year old player went down to FL (rick macci, everts etc..) and saw many of the U10 competition and said they were about the same in terms of level only there were more players down there.

Having played several events at Macci this is not true. Most of the 10s play 12s. The 10s draw hasn't had Top 10s in ~5 months. So they are probably looking @ 7,8s The Little girl that won the 10s just turned 8.

http://tennislink.usta.com/TOURNAMENTS/TournamentHome_New/Tournament.aspx?T=100296

I'm not throwing stones at the NE. I Grew up in Flushing and played Baseball for the warm months. Yes we had players drafted just like SoFla who could play year round.

So as you struggle with court cost and weather, we struggle with sunny days and kids wanting to do everything else but play sometime. BTW the courts are not free but cost on where near $100:shock: BUT most you need a permit and a certified Pro. So overall the Cost is clos to 2/3rds yours.

Remember USTA National caved to USTA Florida and they Created the
Only U11 Green Ball system. Not U12 they did it for U11 for a specific reason.

I can only speculate, but sadly it is not selling. I would guess that U11 in most other regions would do very well and as they 10U program runs more will play it down here also.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

ProTour630, you are correct about the cold weather and indoor tennis up north. But believe it or not we have an equally big problem down here....many kids and parents stay inside 6 months a year because of the heat and humidity.

We make sure to keep our house warm and not go crazy with the air conditioning, so we are acclimated to the temperature. But you go into any store, business, many people's house in the hot months and it is freezing! They go from AC in the car to the buildings and then feel hot outside most of the year.

It is a huge issue with the kids. So many start griping about the heat and humidity minutes into a practice. We get a lot less done down here with the majority of the kids than you would think. Luckily we have more players so the ones willing to tough it out in the heat emerge and we still have a good number of nice players.

The top of the rankings are well represented with colder weather kids like Brooke Austin from Indy. My guess is she was able to train indoors when needed.

The surprise is a wealthy kid with indoor facilities might train more than a hot weather kid when you look at an entire year of training. But a less affluent kid would have a huge advantage down here if he/she was willing to tough it out in the heat.

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

Having played several events at Macci this is not true. Most of the 10s play 12s. The 10s draw hasn't had Top 10s in ~5 months. So they are probably looking @ 7,8s The Little girl that won the 10s just turned 8.

http://tennislink.usta.com/TOURNAMENTS/TournamentHome_New/Tournament.aspx?T=100296

I'm not throwing stones at the NE. I Grew up in Flushing and played Baseball for the warm months. Yes we had players drafted just like SoFla who could play year round.

So as you struggle with court cost and weather, we struggle with sunny days and kids wanting to do everything else but play sometime. BTW the courts are not free but cost on where near $100:shock: BUT most you need a permit and a certified Pro. So overall the Cost is clos to 2/3rds yours.

Remember USTA National caved to USTA Florida and they Created the
Only U11 Green Ball system. Not U12 they did it for U11 for a specific reason.

I can only speculate, but sadly it is not selling. I would guess that U11 in most other regions would do very well and as they 10U program runs more will play it down here also.

I am just going by second hand info. Same here, the top players in the 10's are playing 12 and on and on........... but on occasion they play U10.

The tournament you linked he (9.5) played in that one as well so he had first hand knowledge and was there with the boys. So the boys U10 was it high level or low level in general? It was yellow regulation, the last U10 regulation tournament in FL in the most prestige academy in FL, who is against colored balls had a mediocre level?!?!

As for weather, the humidity toughens and weeds out the players, it is better for you to get them ready for tournaments.

When we lived in Southern Cali, the weather was great and there were lights on courts for free in public parks.

 

[Pro_Tour_630]

ProTour630, you are correct about the cold weather and indoor tennis up north. But believe it or not we have an equally big problem down here....many kids and parents stay inside 6 months a year because of the heat and humidity.

We make sure to keep our house warm and not go crazy with the air conditioning, so we are acclimated to the temperature. But you go into any store, business, many people's house in the hot months and it is freezing! They go from AC in the car to the buildings and then feel hot outside most of the year.

It is a huge issue with the kids. So many start griping about the heat and humidity minutes into a practice. We get a lot less done down here with the majority of the kids than you would think. Luckily we have more players so the ones willing to tough it out in the heat emerge and we still have a good number of nice players.

The top of the rankings are well represented with colder weather kids like Brooke Austin from Indy. My guess is she was able to train indoors when needed.

The surprise is a wealthy kid with indoor facilities might train more than a hot weather kid when you look at an entire year of training. But a less affluent kid would have a huge advantage down here if he/she was willing to tough it out in the heat.

Have not lived in FL but I have lived in SOCAL and the heat and humidity was not an issue, how are the Socal juniors level compared to GA/FL? In Socal, We had free courts all year round with free lights on many parks that was back in the 80's not sure how it is now.

The wealthy kids in NE are not hungry and most are not athletic, so it is a problem.

You are correct you have more players and the tough ones toughen it out in the heat.

But then again we have top players from the ski mountains of Serbia and Russia, go figure..........

 

[chalkflewup]

I didn't realize there was a correlation between athleticism and where one lives.