Only Mats, Rog and Nole have done the calendar HC slam double
- Thread starter Hitman
- Start date
ibbi
G.O.A.T.
Connors went twice, won it once, and made the final the second
Through the first half of the 70s given most of the top players were Australian it was pretty well attended. It was only really 5/6 years where it was truly a nothing tournament (prestige wise, it obviously still had less prize money and fewer rankings points even after guys started going).But yes, I take your point. It was a long way to travel at an awkward time of year for less reward, and not winning it then doesn't mean much to a legacy.
Still, we've got over 30 years now of it being top-level, so to point stuff like this out is not exactly meaningless. We've almost reached a point where there are no more players playing who were even born when the Aussie Open was a comparatively lesser event. It's got history.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Mainad
Bionic Poster
S'in-net
Semi-Pro
Wilander in '88 was also the hardcourt 128 draw best of five triple...
Can't be done again
The USTA should be too for making such a lopsided draw in favor of their favorite player last year.
Neptune
Hall of Fame
4+ HC big titles in a season (since 1988, the year AO became HC):
Wilander 1988 4
Agassi 1995 4
Fed 2004 5, 2005 4, 2006 7, 2007 4, 2017 4,
Nole 2011 5, 2012 5, 2013 4, 2014 4, 2015 7, 2016 4, 2023 5
Rafa 2013 4
Murray 2016 4
Sinner 2024 4*(ongoing)
5+ HC big titles in a season has been achieved only 6 times, Nole (4) and Fed (2).
Top HC rivalries in big tournaments:
1.Nole-Fed 32
2.Nole-Murray 25
3.Nole-Rafa 23
4.Fed-Rafa 19
5.Fed-Murray 18
6.Pete-Agassi 15
10.Connors-Lendl 14
Wilander 1988 4
Agassi 1995 4
Fed 2004 5, 2005 4, 2006 7, 2007 4, 2017 4,
Nole 2011 5, 2012 5, 2013 4, 2014 4, 2015 7, 2016 4, 2023 5
Rafa 2013 4
Murray 2016 4
Sinner 2024 4*(ongoing)
5+ HC big titles in a season has been achieved only 6 times, Nole (4) and Fed (2).
Top HC rivalries in big tournaments:
1.Nole-Fed 32
2.Nole-Murray 25
3.Nole-Rafa 23
4.Fed-Rafa 19
5.Fed-Murray 18
6.Pete-Agassi 15
10.Connors-Lendl 14
Last edited:
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Nole is hard court GOAT by a mile. Roger is second.
Sinner may be wouldn't be at their level but he would be very good do you think?
Racquet_smash
Professional
Not saying it's meaningless, just that many top players then could have archieved this but couldn't.Connors went twice, won it once, and made the final the second
But yes, I take your point. It was a long way to travel at an awkward time of year for less reward, and not winning it then doesn't mean much to a legacy.
Still, we've got over 30 years now of it being top-level, so to point stuff like this out is not exactly meaningless. We've almost reached a point where there are no more players playing who were even born when the Aussie Open was a comparatively lesser event. It's got history.
ibbi
G.O.A.T.
Wouldn't have been a hard court double then though
Mustard
Bionic Poster
A lot of it is due to where the Australian Open was in the calendar. See below. When the Australian Open was in a death slot over the Christmas period, the tournament's reputation was at its lowest. When it moved to a late November to mid December slot, things started improving. Things improved more with the new venue and the January slot.Connors went twice, won it once, and made the final the second
But yes, I take your point. It was a long way to travel at an awkward time of year for less reward, and not winning it then doesn't mean much to a legacy.
Still, we've got over 30 years now of it being top-level, so to point stuff like this out is not exactly meaningless. We've almost reached a point where there are no more players playing who were even born when the Aussie Open was a comparatively lesser event. It's got history.
The dates of the Australian Open from 1969-1988 are below. The event was held at Kooyong, Melbourne from 1972-1987:
1969 (Brisbane): 20-27 January 1969 (the first leg of Rod Laver's Grand Slam in Brisbane)
1970 (Sydney): 19-27 January 1970 (a much weaker field than the 1970 Dunlop Sydney Open from 16-22 March 1970, where Laver beat Rosewall in the final)
1971 (Sydney): 7-14 March 1971 (the date and the strong field suggests that the 1971 Australian Open effectively became the 1971 Dunlop Sydney Open)
1972 (Kooyong, Melbourne): 26 December 1971 - 3 January 1972 (tournament moves to Kooyong, Melbourne, where it stays up to 1987)
1973: 26 December 1972 - 1 January 1973
1974: 26 December 1973 - 1 January 1974
1975: 21 December 1974 - 1 January 1975 (world number 2 Newcombe beats world number 1 Connors in a HUGE final, which had somehow failed to happen throughout 1974. Connors avenged this loss to Newcombe in a big money Las Vegas exhibition)
1976: 26 December 1975 - 4 January 1976
1977 (Jan): 3-9 January 1977 (a much better slot for Roscoe Tanner's win)
1977 (Dec): 19 December 1977 - 31 December 1977
1978: 25 December 1978 - 3 January 1979 (interestingly, the 1978 tournament finished in January 1979)
1979: 24 December 1979 - 2 January 1980 (again, the 1979 tournament finished in January 1980)
1980: 26 December 1980 - 4 January 1981 (even more bizarre this time with the January 1981 end, while the women's event was 24-30 November 1980)
1981: 21 December 1981 - 3 January 1982 (the last of the bizarre end dates)
1982: 29 November 1982 - 13 December 1982
1983: 29 November 1983 - 11 December 1983
1984: 26 November 1984 - 9 December 1984
1985: 25 November 1985 - 8 December 1985
1986: No Tournament held
1987: 12-25 January 1987
1988 (move to Flinders Park, Melbourne): 11-24 January 1988
The Australian Open has stayed around the 1987-88 slot ever since, sometimes finishing in early February. The only exception was the 2021 event being on 8-21 February 2021 due to Covid, taking place 3 weeks later than the originally planned 18-31 January slot.
I believe 1995 was the first year where the Australian Open had equal ranking points with the other 3 majors.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
For clarity, Wilander in 1988 won the Australian Open (128 man draw, best of 5 sets every round), Key Biscayne (128 man draw, best of 5 sets every round) and US Open (128 man draw, best of 5 sets every round).
Angrybirdstar
Semi-Pro
are you saying "historians" sarcastically or are there legit historians who say this? my guess was that (to the extent they were meaningfully separable) his condition preferences went something like indoors >= grass >= outdoor hard > clay
from what i could tell Smith strongly preferred indoor to outdoor hard, so idk about naming him along with the other 2 in terms of hard court slam double contention
Racquet_smash
Professional
Laver's best surface was grass, from the games i've seen of him that's what i can say.
Rafa.the.Magnificent
G.O.A.T.
He can, and I now thoroughly believe he will!
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Delpo on roids
Mainad
Bionic Poster
chjtennis
G.O.A.T.
Seems this could be the year for Jannik.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
If anything comes close then those 87-89 Miami editions. If we include AO from the 70s (and some of the 80s) then a good argument can be made actually.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Sampras in 1994 would have been a big favourite. He would also then have done the triple with YEC.
pirhaksar
Professional
Exactly why I picked him as my next guy after Novak. For a lanky lad the movement is surprisingly great and for a skinny lad he crushes that FH!
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
The 1997 was played on HC, but about the 1999 different sources say different things. I have read multiple times that it was on carpet. Do you happen to have any sources that confirm it was on hard?
@messiahrobins I can also remember you said you were there and it was carpet.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Muster (and Agassi) played in the same era against the same competition as Bruguera.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Who would you say had the higher peak? Pete pushed Agassi more at the AO than Agassi pushed Pete at the USO. But then again Pete at the USO is arguably better than Agassi at the AO.
NatF
Bionic Poster
There are legit very knowledgeable posters in the Former section who have said this yes. I don't know if it's true, but I can see Laver's game working at it's best on HC.
He didn't get to play HC at his peak, but he amassed quite a record on it in his 30's. I think he would have done very very well if there were HC majors in the mid-60's.
The early and earlier Open Era had a less stratified tour and the prestige of events sort of varied sometimes year to year. For example the WCT finals in Dallas gave out the biggest paychecks of the time and were certainly de-facto majors as well - I would consider both the 1971 and 1972 editions for Rosewall for example. In Borg's case the WCT final and Grand Prix Masters Finals he won were certainly bigger events than the AO in those years.
I agree, it was his best year in terms of overall level of play IMO.
What was Agassi's best year at the USO?
Relatively speaking I'd be very tempted to back 1994 Sampras at the AO over any USO Agassi.
BGod
G.O.A.T.
Mmmkay and??
Bruegera was nearly a 3-0 champ like Kuerten and yet when looking an entire resumes one has to consider the context.
Agassi at freaking 18 lost in 5 to eventual champ Wilander in his peak season then twice to Courier. I don't at all neglect that orhis mental issues largely affecing his loss to Gomez and say Bruegera was a better French Open contender.
Muster meanwhile just had bad luck at specifically the French, kind of like Bubka the GOAT in pole vaulting only winning a single Olympic Gold.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Could subscribe to that one.What was Agassi's best year at the USO?
messiahrobins
Legend
1999 or 1997?
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
1999.
messiahrobins
Legend
Carpet, last time was played on carpet
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Strange that 97 was on HC and 99 back on carpet.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
2005, I believe. Nalbandian beat Federer in the final.
Nadal's win over Federer in the 2006 Dubai final was Federer's first hardcourt match loss since the 2005 Australian Open semi final against Safin.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
That was a one-off though. 97 was already on indoor HC and from 2000-2004 as well. Do you happen to know whether 1999 was on carpet or indoor HC? There are sources who say it was indoor HC. Wikipedia says carpet and so does Wasp in the match report. Also, @messiahrobins was there and says carpet so that is good enough for me. Just wondering why so many sources say indoor HC.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
I'm pretty sure 1999 was carpet. That's how I remember it from the time. Sampras beat Agassi badly in the final.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
He lost to him the RR, then crushed him in the final.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
It seemed like peak Hewitt was losing to Federer every slam.
I think I remember perfectly the commentators on TV saying it was indoor hard at the time, but Wiki says carpet.
I'll try to find out.
messiahrobins
Legend
Late 90s there was much talk about getting rid of carpet courts so what happened then was a move to call carpet courts hard courts to ease that transition so to speak.
Worse thing they ever did getting rid of carpet courts
It was on indoor hard:
www.atptour.com
Go to Event breakdown. Exactly as I remember it.
Pete Sampras VS Andre Agassi | Head 2 Head | H2H | ATP Tour | Tennis
Head to head records for players in men's professional tennis. View rivalry results and stats for matches on the ATP Tour.
www.atptour.com
Go to Event breakdown. Exactly as I remember it.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
As I said there are various sources saying indoor hard. Also it clearly states everywhere that 97 was on indoor hard which would mean they would have done a switch back and forth. However, Wikipedia says 99 was on carpet and so do @Mustard and @messiahrobins . @Waspsting : your match reports says carpet as well. Do you happen to have some additional sources here?It was on indoor hard:
Pete Sampras VS Andre Agassi | Head 2 Head | H2H | ATP Tour | Tennis
Head to head records for players in men's professional tennis. View rivalry results and stats for matches on the ATP Tour.
Go to Event breakdown. Exactly as I remember it.
Hood_Man
G.O.A.T.
Tsitsipas hasn't looked like a genuine threat to anyone since he broke through in 2019, and since then everyone has had him figured out.
Medvedev in 2021 didn't beat anyone, Novak crumbled under the pressure and Medvedev was just a passenger - Donald Young would have won that day.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
My memory is that the 1997 YEC was indoor hardcourt (the first time the tournament wasn't carpet since 1974 on grass), but I thought 1998 and 1999 were indoor carpet again. 2000-2002 indoor hardcourt. 2003-2004 was outdoor hardcourt. 2005 was the last indoor carpet one, as I recall. Indoor hardcourt from 2006 onwards.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
That is what I also remember.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
In the first sentence it says “…auf Teppichbelag ausgetragen wurde” meaning carpet. It only later in the info table says “hard”.
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