GoatNo1
Hall of Fame
and the last of the 6 was the last time he won a set vs nole at HC! And these days there was a 10 year anniversary to it!...and then proceeded to lost 6 of his next 7 matches to Nadal
lol
Open Era Win % vs Rival ATGs ........ What does this tell you ?
- Thread starter Razer
- Start date
weakera
Talk Tennis Guru
Wouldn't that fact be more relevant if they had played more than 2 times on HC (and both in Australia) since 2016?
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Pheasant
Legend
Good thread, OP. This shows that Lendl had it the toughest by far with 165 matches vs ATG players across all surfaces. He broke in against Connors and Borg, then while declined, played against younger players like Becker, Edberg, Agassi, and Sampras. He always had it tough, which explains why he had whopping 165 matches against ATG players , despite shorter careers back then.
Also, that era had surface specialists as well that weren’t ATG players, yet were very dangerous. Yannick Noah was a tough on clay and Cash was very dangerous on grass.
Also, that era had surface specialists as well that weren’t ATG players, yet were very dangerous. Yannick Noah was a tough on clay and Cash was very dangerous on grass.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Lendl like Djokovic was hurt by peak competition
GoatNo1
Hall of Fame
actually (last 10 years):
9 times, 9-0 and 19-0 in sets on HC
1 time, 1-0 on GC
12 times, 5-7 on CC
| Year | Event | Surface | RND | Winner | Result |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2022 | Roland Garros France | Outdoor Clay | QF | Rafael Nadal | 62 46 62 764 |
| 2021 | Roland Garros France | Outdoor Clay | SF | Novak Djokovic | 36 63 764 62 |
| 2021 | ATP Masters 1000 Rome Italy | Outdoor Clay | F | Rafael Nadal | 75 16 63 |
| 2020 | Roland Garros France | Outdoor Clay | F | Rafael Nadal | 60 62 75 |
| 2020 | ATP Cup Australia | Outdoor Hard | F | Novak Djokovic | 62 764 |
| 2019 | ATP Masters 1000 Rome Italy | Outdoor Clay | F | Rafael Nadal | 60 46 61 |
| 2019 | Australian Open Australia | Outdoor Hard | F | Novak Djokovic | 63 62 63 |
| 2018 | Wimbledon Great Britain | Outdoor Grass | SF | Novak Djokovic | 64 36 769 36 108 |
| 2018 | ATP Masters 1000 Rome Italy | Outdoor Clay | SF | Rafael Nadal | 764 63 |
| 2017 | ATP Masters 1000 Madrid Spain | Outdoor Clay | SF | Rafael Nadal | 62 64 |
| 2016 | ATP Masters 1000 Rome Italy | Outdoor Clay | QF | Novak Djokovic | 75 764 |
| 2016 | ATP Masters 1000 Indian Wells CA, U.S.A. | Outdoor Hard | SF | Novak Djokovic | 765 62 |
| 2016 | Doha Qatar | Outdoor Hard | F | Novak Djokovic | 61 62 |
| 2015 | ATP Finals Great Britain | Indoor Hard | SF | Novak Djokovic | 63 63 |
| 2015 | Beijing China | Outdoor Hard | F | Novak Djokovic | 62 62 |
| 2015 | Roland Garros France | Outdoor Clay | QF | Novak Djokovic | 75 63 61 |
| 2015 | ATP Masters 1000 Monte Carlo Monaco | Outdoor Clay | SF | Novak Djokovic | 63 63 |
| 2014 | Roland Garros France | Outdoor Clay | F | Rafael Nadal | 36 75 62 64 |
| 2014 | ATP Masters 1000 Rome Italy | Outdoor Clay | F | Novak Djokovic | 46 63 63 |
| 2014 | ATP Masters 1000 Miami FL, U.S.A. | Outdoor Hard | F | Novak Djokovic | 63 63 |
| 2013 | ATP Finals Great Britain | Indoor Hard | F | Novak Djokovic | 63 64 |
| 2013 | Beijing China | Outdoor Hard | F | Novak Djokovic | 63 64 |
weakera
Talk Tennis Guru
Right, so exactly what I said, two HC matches, both in Australia lol since 2016? And many victories over Nadal in 2015-2016 when Nadal was losing to Pouille and Verdasco etc?
I know it sounds nice but I don't get the significance of the number. Thanks for your attempt at explanation
GoatNo1
Hall of Fame
some fun facts about rafas and noles h2h!Right, so exactly what I said, two HC matches, both in Australia lol since 2016? And many victories over Nadal in 2015-2016 when Nadal was losing to Pouille and Verdasco etc?
I know it sounds nice but I don't get the significance of the number. Thanks for your attempt at explanation
even though it's 9/14 HC tournaments and only 4/14 CC tournaments (out of all big tournaments), which means more than double HC tournaments, rafa and nole have played more matches on CC than on HC!
- nole has more wins vs rafa on CC than rafa vs him on HC!
- nole has better W% vs rafa on CC than rafa vs him on HC!
- nole has wins vs rafa in every big tournament where they have met (never met in shanghai)!
- rafa has never won vs nole in 4 out of 8 big HC tournaments where they have played against each other!
- rafa has never won against nole in 50% of HC GS tournaments (AO), 50% of HC masters tournaments (miami, cinci and paris), 60% of HC master where they played against each other and 50% of HC indoors big tournaments (paris).
- nole has multiple wins vs rafa in all but one big CC tournament (3 out of 4).
- rafa has multiple wins vs nole in only 2 out of 8 HC tournaments where they have met!
| Tournament | No1e | Rafa |
|---|---|---|
| Australian Open | 2 | 0 |
| French Open | 2 | 8 |
| Wimbledon | 2 | 1 |
| US Open | 1 | 2 |
| Indian Wells Masters | 3 | 1 |
| Miami Open | 3 | 0 |
| Monte-Carlo Masters | 2 | 2 |
| Italian Open | 3 | 6 |
| German Open / Madrid Open | 1 | 3 |
| Canadian Open | 1 | 1 |
| Cincinnati Masters | 2 | 0 |
| Paris Masters | 1 | 0 |
| ATP Tour Finals | 3 | 2 |
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nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Is this true ?
This shows only at RG, USOpen Madrid and Rome did the clay GOAT had advantage. Seems like he is powerless pretty much everywhere.
GoatNo1
Hall of Fame
it is just the way it is!
TripleATeam
G.O.A.T.
I mean I doubt it changes much but remove Alcaraz. He may be a future ATG but let him achieve it before you crowd him. Either that or include every 2+ time slam winner.
GoatNo1
Hall of Fame
rafa said it best himself
tinyurl.com
'Perfect' Djokovic thrashes Nadal to win Qatar Open
Novak Djokovic won his first title of 2016 on Saturday, playing "perfect" tennis to thrash arch-rival Rafael Nadal in straight sets during a breathtaking per...
tinyurl.com
It shows the potential many ATG players had but didn't turn into success. It doesn't surprize me a bit that Becker, Lendl and also Nadal are that close on top next to Sapmras even though Nadal made the most of it in terms of numbers. Becker and Lendl clearly wasted too many titles.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Every 2+ Slam winner cannot be included because that would dilute everything. You would have to include Rafter, Hewitt, Burguera, Kuerten, Wawrinka, Kafelnikov. On the other hand Roddick and Medvedev have 5 GS finals while Bruguera, Kafelnikov, Kuerten all have 3 each while Patrick Rafter and Safin have 4, how do we draw the line on which 2+ slam winner deserves to be there ? So the cut off has to be kept at 6 Slams. Perhaps Alcaraz can be removed, I included him just for fun since his numbers don't affect the outcome in anyway.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
This is pretty subjective thread because there are boarderline atg like courier and Murray. They muddy up everything.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Nothing subjective
Numbers are numbers, these are hardcore facts. Even if we include Murray & Courier it won't change the numbers much.
Nadal would still be ahead of Fedovic in H2H % and he indeed has won more matches, so nothing subjective.
Sampras-Bruguera 1993
Legend
Sampras is a beast and rises to the occasion . Thats what it tells us.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Nadal has heavy clay skew vs Federer. If you add more players you can have real numbers. Federer H2H sucked on clay. 14-2 or whatever it was is really whitewash anyway you look at it..
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Courier and Murray included.
Sampras - 66 - 36 .... win% 64.7%
Nadal - 74-54 ... win% 57.81%
Djokovic - 84-65 .... win% 56.37%
Federer - 62-65 .... win% 48.81%
Sampras becomes even stronger ... approaches 65% @NonP @BorgTheGOAT
Nadal and Djoker approach 60% .... Federer approaches 50% ....
Courier will lower Agassi's % since Agassi has a losing h2h ... It will increase Becker's % more since he has 6-1 h2h..... now becker has 59.84%
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Yea makes sense as Pete owned Courier 16-4, same as Becker. While the stat is of course not flawless it clearly shows how well Becker did against the big shots. I mean compared to Edberg and Mats who played alongside him and are loomed together with him they fall considerably behind. Too bad Boris couldn’t always beat the players he was supposed to beat with the required consistency.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Pete absolutely deserves to be in the GOAT conversation. He was GOAT in 90s
TripleATeam
G.O.A.T.
Precisely. Then remove Alcaraz. My position here isn't out of bias, I realize his effect is minimal. But if we just include people we want then we could include anyone in those statistics.
helterskelter
G.O.A.T.
edberg+becker combined vs pete at slams.. 0-5, never played a five-setter..
lets take 2 matches from edberg from ao and uso + two matches from becker at wimby.. speaking about games lost/won vs pete.. 85-62=72.9%..
and now taking 4 matches from sir andy vs djoko at slams (3 ao + 1 uso, let alone not including uso12 five-setter + wimby13, for example).. 98-71=72.45%.. looks like sir andy sitting in the same tier with those two guys
Edberg won both the slam matches he played against Sampras (and three of the four he played against Becker).
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Modified the list
- Removed Alcaraz.
- Included Courier, Vilas, Newcombe, Rosewall, Laver & Sir Andy Murray
New Cut Off for Rivals is -> 6+ Grand Slam Finals Played in the Open Era
@BorgTheGOAT @nachiket nolefam @NonP @Holmes - Borg has got into the list since he crossed 80 matches now, but his % is still inflated IMO, he retired at 26, had he played at least into 30s he would have got plenty of Ls, few wins too. 100+ wins for Lendl @Pheasant, looks like he played a lot of matches.
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BorgTheGOAT
Legend
The assumption that Borg’s % goes down had he played longer is not unreasonable but he still had some peak years so not sure how much it would affect him in the end.
He dominated Vilas and Connors at the point of his retirement and since both are older than him that likely wouldn’t have changed. I also think he would still have won more often than not against Mats until at least 84.
As for Mac: I know you are one of those guys who strongly believe in the myth that Borg ran away because of him, but Borg still beat him in unofficial matches in 1982 and 83 and they never played on clay. I do think that had Borg continued playing, their even H2H would more or less have stayed intact. As for Lendl: yea he would eventually gotten Borg I guess, but in 81 Borg was still ahead, so I think he could have saved a positive H2H depending on how often they played in later years. Becker’s power player would have been too much for an older Borg I guess but I don’t think they would have played often as Becker was still a little inconsistent. All in all, if we assume Borg plays a normal career (let’s say until 30) I am not sure whether his % drops dramatically. He will score multiple wins against Connors, Vilas, Mats, will hold his own against Mac, beat Lendl at the beginning before conceding some losses and eventually maybe lose to Becker a couple of times before retiring.
We also have to keep in mind, that peaking very early also comes with some disadvantages. Borg wouldn’t have a negative H2H against Newc for a start if he hadn’t played him at such an early age.
TearTheRoofOff
G.O.A.T.
That Big 3 and especially 2 had unfortunately few, even including Andy freaking Murray.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
He should have take a year break and then returned if he was so burned out. By retiring at 25+ he ruined his legacy in the long run. Future generations are not gonna give him benefit of the doubt, everyone will rightfully assume that he was reluctant to fight youngsters. Had he added 3-4 slams more after 1982 then he would have looked much better in the GOAT debate even today. Plus not playing the Aus open also hurt all the 70s & 80s greats in the long run. Too many average players seem to have won that slam.....
Yeah and no diversity as well, they all played the same type of tennis.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
One could be generous and include Wawrinka, making three slams the cut-off. It would boost the % of all three.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
If Wawrinka is added then Safin and Roddick also should be there along with Hewitt.
Federer's % might shoot to the top ? Then you will have to include other 1-2 slams winners too from other era and the whole exercise becomes more confusing.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
The problem was that he was demanded to play qualies which was a ridiculous idea but wouldn’t have changed had he taken a year off (imagine that would have happened to one of the big three). Sure one can say he could have achieved more (also if he had played the AO) but his legacy is quite intact. He was the first big star and out tennis on another level popularity wise. His 3 channel slams on polarised conditions and his 5 consecutive Wimbledons alone cement his legacy. One has to understand that nobody cared about the AO back then so we cannot compare slam numbers of players from the 70s/80s at face value with players from after Sampras.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Yea I said one “could” not that it makes sense. Imho even Murray has no business being there, Courier should be the cut-off. But since the big three otherwise are punished for being so dominant that no other ATGs evolved I guess it is fair game. Anywho the interesting question is: is Stan closer to Murray than he is to Safin, Hewitt, Roddick?
GoatNo1
Hall of Fame
...and then Rafa proceeded to lost 11 of his next 12 matches to No1e...and then proceeded to lost 6 of his next 7 matches to Nadal
lol
lol
| 2016 | ATP Masters 1000 Rome Italy | Outdoor Clay | QF | Novak Djokovic | 75 764 |
| 2016 | ATP Masters 1000 Indian Wells CA, U.S.A. | Outdoor Hard | SF | Novak Djokovic | 765 62 |
| 2016 | Doha Qatar | Outdoor Hard | F | Novak Djokovic | 61 62 |
| 2015 | ATP Finals Great Britain | Indoor Hard | SF | Novak Djokovic | 63 63 |
| 2015 | Beijing China | Outdoor Hard | F | Novak Djokovic | 62 62 |
| 2015 | Roland Garros France | Outdoor Clay | QF | Novak Djokovic | 75 63 61 |
| 2015 | ATP Masters 1000 Monte Carlo Monaco | Outdoor Clay | SF | Novak Djokovic | 63 63 |
| 2014 | Roland Garros France | Outdoor Clay | F | Rafael Nadal | 36 75 62 64 |
| 2014 | ATP Masters 1000 Rome Italy | Outdoor Clay | F | Novak Djokovic | 46 63 63 |
| 2014 | ATP Masters 1000 Miami FL, U.S.A. | Outdoor Hard | F | Novak Djokovic | 63 63 |
| 2013 | ATP Finals Great Britain | Indoor Hard | F | Novak Djokovic | 63 64 |
| 2013 | Beijing China | Outdoor Hard | F | Novak Djokovic | 63 64 |
weakera
Talk Tennis Guru
...and then Rafa proceeded to lost 11 of his next 12 matches to No1e
lol
2016 ATP Masters 1000 Rome
ItalyOutdoor Clay QF Novak Djokovic 75 764 2016 ATP Masters 1000 Indian Wells
CA, U.S.A.Outdoor Hard SF Novak Djokovic 765 62 2016 Doha
QatarOutdoor Hard F Novak Djokovic 61 62 2015 ATP Finals
Great BritainIndoor Hard SF Novak Djokovic 63 63 2015 Beijing
ChinaOutdoor Hard F Novak Djokovic 62 62 2015 Roland Garros
FranceOutdoor Clay QF Novak Djokovic 75 63 61 2015 ATP Masters 1000 Monte Carlo
MonacoOutdoor Clay SF Novak Djokovic 63 63 2014 Roland Garros
FranceOutdoor Clay F Rafael Nadal 36 75 62 64 2014 ATP Masters 1000 Rome
ItalyOutdoor Clay F Novak Djokovic 46 63 63 2014 ATP Masters 1000 Miami
FL, U.S.A.Outdoor Hard F Novak Djokovic 63 63 2013 ATP Finals
Great BritainIndoor Hard F Novak Djokovic 63 64 2013 Beijing
ChinaOutdoor Hard F Novak Djokovic 63 64
Yeah and lol? Are wins scored over Nadal from 2015-2016 when he was losing to the Pouille's of the world supposed to be impressive? I already know that Djokovic only leads the h2h because he fattened up during that period
GoatNo1
Hall of Fame
post USO13 upp to 2015: 4-1 no1eYeah and lol? Are wins scored over Nadal from 2015-2016 when he was losing to the Pouille's of the world supposed to be impressive? I already know that Djokovic only leads the h2h because he fattened up during that period
2015-2016: 7-0 no1e
post USO13 (last 10 years):
all h2h: 15-7 no1e
HC h2h: 9-0 (19-0 in sets) nole
CC: 7-5 rafa
GC: 1-0 nole
weakera
Talk Tennis Guru
GoatNo1
Hall of Fame
what the leading spain sport newspaper have to say about nole:2015-2016
Who is sport's all-time male GOAT?
Novak Djokovic ended any debate as to who is the best male tennis player in history on Sunday. The Serb defeated Russian Daniil Medvedev in the US Open final to claim his 24th Gran
www.marca.com
D
Deleted member 765728
Guest
What I can't understand regarding this myth is why would some people assume that a player like Borg, who ruled the tennis word for years, suddenly turned into a defeatist who couldn't handle a newcomer, so instead of working on weaknesses which would help him to overcome a new challenge, he rather gave up on "first" big obstacle and withdraw.
Not to mention that majority of their matches were played on surfaces that reward Mac's game more, and still Borg was 4-2 vs Mac in 1979 and 3-1 in 1980 (counting only sanctioned tournaments for simplicity). Mac got better of him in 1981 (3-0), but such thing happens in tennis, it wasn't the end or the world.
The Sinner
Semi-Pro
It’s interesting to note how Djokovic and Nadal only have themselves, Fed and Muzza to contend with, whereas most of all the other ATGs have a whole bunch of other ATGs as peers.
Connors = a whopping 13 other ATGs!
Connors = a whopping 13 other ATGs!
Neptune
Hall of Fame
Neptune
Hall of Fame
OP cherry picking numbers, and you are lost?
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
Neptune
Hall of Fame
Ruud, Tsitsipas, Rublev etc
"Top 10"
Yep, Rafa's 186 wins include those "top10"
WRONG!
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
Yeah they do, but overall, his very best slam wins were against tougher level opponents than Djok.
Like I said:
AO09: def #2 Federer
RG12: def #1 Djokovic
WIM08: def #1 Federer
US13: def #1 Djokovic
He won every slam against the other big 3 when they were in their prime and playing some of their best tennis...
Neptune
Hall of Fame
cherry picking a few matches, making claim base on your feeling and call it a career?
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
Yeah, that's cherry picking lmfao...
At least I'm not making a dumb statement by making those wins look equivalent to beating Tsitsipas and Ruud... they're all top 10 wins yeah?
Neptune
Hall of Fame
Yeah, that's cherry picking lmfao...
At least I'm not making a dumb statement by making those wins look equivalent to beating Tsitsipas and Ruud... they're all top 10 wins yeah?
24>22, 6>0, 70>59, 400>209, 8>5
vive le beau jeu !
Talk Tennis Guru
lol murray... what is he doing there?
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Sampras and Federer are counted for each other.
If Sampras benefitted from being younger then what about your boy Djokovic who is also the youngest of all ATGs in his career?
So courier should not be there and Wawrinka should be there? I dont think so.... Courier has won 4 slams while Wawrinka has not, the criteria is 6GS Finals, Wawrinka doesnt make the cut.
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The_Order
G.O.A.T.
24>22, 6>0, 70>59, 400>209, 8>5
Majority of that comes after age 28...
When he was in his prime during the strong era, he was the third wheel
