Open Era Win % vs Rival ATGs ........ What does this tell you ?

The_Order said:
Look at the desperate Nadal haters... "oh but clay... but clay"

Fail to realise that clay is one of the main surfaces...

AO09: def #2 Federer
RG12: def #1 Djokovic
WIM08: def #1 Federer
US13: def #1 Djokovic

Djok nowhere near wins against opponents of that level at the 4 majors.
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Fed RG 05-07. How many players have 3 wins in a row in a late stages of a slam like that without needing a 5th setter.
 
Razer said:
Sampras and Federer are counted for each other.

If Sampras benefitted from being younger then what about your boy Djokovic who is also the youngest of all ATGs in his career?

So courier should not be there and Wawrinka should be there? I dont think so.... Courier has won 4 slams while Wawrinka has not, the criteria is 6GS Finals, Wawrinka doesnt make the cut.
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Nadal is just one younger, plus the fact that he matured at the youngest age.
 
The_Order said:
Look at the desperate Nadal haters... "oh but clay... but clay"

Fail to realise that clay is one of the main surfaces...

AO09: def #2 Federer
RG12: def #1 Djokovic
WIM08: def #1 Federer
US13: def #1 Djokovic

Djok nowhere near wins against opponents of that level at the 4 majors.
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it id much easier to win vs no1 if you have spenderad a half of time on top spot but:

AO08: def #1 fed
RG23: def #1 raz
W11/18: def #1 rafa/rafa
USO11/15: def #2 rafa/fed
 
GoatNo1 said:
it id much easier to win vs no1 if you have spenderad a half of time on top spot but:

AO08: def #1 fed
RG23: def #1 raz
W11/18: def #1 rafa/rafa
USO11/15: def #2 rafa/fed
Click to expand...

Yeah.. his best wins are against much worse versions of Nadal and Federer... then there's Alcrampaz lmfao thanks for proving my point. You've done well.
 
The_Order said:
Yeah.. his best wins are against much worse versions of Nadal and Federer... then there's Alcrampaz lmfao thanks for proving my point. You've done well.
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no, not his best but his wins vs highest ranked opponents.

you see

most AO titles has nole and rafa has no wins vs him there
second most AO titles has fed and nole has 4 wins vs him

most RG titles has rafa and nole has 2 wins vs him
second most titles has borg and 3rd is a bunch of players and nole is one among them. rafa has 8th wins vs him

most W wins has fed and nole has 3 wins vs him there, rafa has one

most USO wins has fed and nole has 3 wins vs him there, rafa never met him



nole has wins in all slams, WTF and masters vs rafa there they have met each other (never met in shanghai). rafa never won vs nole in AO, miami, cinci and paris!!!!
 
GoatNo1 said:
no, not his best but his wins vs highest ranked opponents.

you see

most AO titles has nole and rafa has no wins vs him there
second most AO titles has fed and nole has 4 wins vs him

most RG titles has rafa and nole has 2 wins vs him
second most titles has borg and 3rd is a bunch of players and nole is one among them. rafa has 8th wins vs him

most W wins has fed and nole has 3 wins vs him there, rafa has one

most USO wins has fed and nole has 3 wins vs him there, rafa never met him



nole has wins in all slams, WTF and masters vs rafa there they have met each other (never met in shanghai). rafa never won vs nole in AO, miami, cinci and paris!!!!
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Nah, they were his best wins and they were against the other big 3 while at their best...

Djok never did that. His resume only took off after he turned 28 and he capitalised on the worst gen of players particularly post covid.
 
If two players have only 5 matches or 10, they can't be rivals! Borg and Willander played 2 matches, Sampras and Federer played once, those were happenstances!

Why Wawrinka wasn't rival for anyone?
 
Great thread as its interesting to see the patterns of how matchups bothered players. Agassi for instance clearly struggled against other power baseliners. Connors for all his consistency struggled against other ATGs.

It does confirm to me Sampras and Borg were right up there with the Big 3 really...i think Alcaraz has to be up there already as well.
 
SonnyT said:
If two players have only 5 matches or 10, they can't be rivals! Borg and Willander played 2 matches, Sampras and Federer played once, those were happenstances!

Why Wawrinka wasn't rival for anyone?
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Wawrinka is not an ATG, even Murray is not but Murray is put in the list just for comparisons sake.
 
The Stats in OP need to be updated now with Sinner and Alcaraz stats for Novak I think @BorgTheGOAT ...

Should I remove Murray from the stats? I think I have ruined my own thread by counting Murray in ATG stats

What do you say ?
 
Razer said:
The Stats in OP need to be updated now with Sinner and Alcaraz stats for Novak I think @BorgTheGOAT ...

Should I remove Murray from the stats? I think I have ruined my own thread by counting Murray in ATG stats

What do you say ?
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True Murray should be out. And also Courier tbh if we strictly follow ATGs. Raz should be in I guess, Sinner not yet but let’s wait one more year.
 
I think Courier should remain, if Vilas/Newcombe are counted for Borg then Courier for Sampras/Agassi/Becker is fair. Winning 4-5 slams in a non homogenous conditions era where people did not win much in 30s cannot be compared with slam centric eras with lot of benefits to top pros. Murray played in the modern era and still has only 3 slams.

Main reason why I gotta remove Murray is because we have not included Hewitt/Safin/Stan in this, if Andy Murray is here then they too should be. We cannot do that...
 
Tier 1: Rosewall, Laver, Borg, Sampras, Federer, Nadal, Djokovic

Tier 2: Connors, McEnroe, Lendl, Becker, Edberg, Wilander, Agassi, Alcaraz, Sinner

Most wins over tier 1 players: Djokovic 57
Most wins over tier 1-2 players: Lendl 93

Lendl is underrated, with a couple more of Slams he would have been one of the tier 1 players, he was the best in the '80s but wasted too many Slam finals.
 
Razer said:
I think Courier should remain, if Vilas/Newcombe are counted for Borg then Courier for Sampras/Agassi/Becker is fair. Winning 4-5 slams in a non homogenous conditions era where people did not win much in 30s cannot be compared with slam centric eras with lot of benefits to top pros. Murray played in the modern era and still has only 3 slams.

Main reason why I gotta remove Murray is because we have not included Hewitt/Safin/Stan in this, if Andy Murray is here then they too should be. We cannot do that...
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Mentioning Hewitt and Safin in a discussion about ATGs LOL
 
Razer said:
If Murray can be then so can Hewitt/Safin.
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Murray was the best player outside ATGs in 14-17 Slams, Hewitt in 3-5 Slams, Safin in 3-4 Slams:

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/best-players-outside-atgs-since-2000.793608/

Murray is superior or close to ATGs in 90% of stats, Hewitt and Safin are not.

For example, most weeks in the top5:

7th of all times Becker 476
8) Edberg 434
9) McEnroe 430
10) Murray 429
11) Borg 393
12) Vilas 358
13) Wilander 323
...
20) Hewitt 184
...
24) Safin 141
 
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