Open stance FH hip sequence

[ByeByePoly]

I posted this so @Curious didn't have to.

I will stick with 2hbhs, but ....

Ah ha fh shadow swing moment. I promised myself I would not talk about FHs in 2018. That went well.

Tell me if this matches the sequence of what you "hippy FH players" are doing on your FH:

(Assume open stance FH hitting off back leg)

1) hip turned past feet, shoulders turned past hips
2) forward swing starts with back leg/hip drive
- when this happens your upper body (torso,shoulders,arm,hand) rotates together over the back leg hip joint
- at this point none/little core/torso/shoulder/arm firing
3) after "some" upper body uncoiling, the core/shoulder/arm (arm extending for Fed) firing happens. My guess is this happens around the point where the hip uncoiling ends, and then we fire the upper body (this is probably the throwing motion point Pete and others mention).

So to me, there is no delay in torso/shoulder rotation after hip rotation. There is a delay of "some torso rotation" before the upper body fires. This makes sense because shoulders continue to turn after hip rotation has ended. Just taking a glance at Fed FHs, the shoulder turn (uncoiling) doesn't have a long run past hips until it pauses (temporarily) and the arm continues, but it's there.

This was what I was trying to tell @Pete Player in another thread. I called it stages of resistance:
1) hip uncoiling completes and passes momentum to shoulder turn
2) shoulder uncoiling completes/pauses (shoulder turn will start up again to allow for remaining follow through) and passes momentum to arm
3) arm reaches extension point where hand turns left, and momentum is passed on to racquet rotating around hand.

 

[FiReFTW]

Thats all cool and nice but pretty useless to teach someone how to hit properly, someone reading this won't really go out on the court and replicate this, its just theory, instead you need to physically feel it.
You just go on the court and work on getting the feel of pushing from the ground and transfering energy through the kinetic chain till you get that down and feel it, probably best to do it with a medicine ball picking from ground and throwing it forward, and you start using ur kinetic chain properly and you don't even think about what body parts activate when and how and where and whatever.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Thats all cool and nice but pretty useless to teach someone how to hit properly, someone reading this won't really go out on the court and replicate this, its just theory, instead you need to physically feel it.
You just go on the court and work on getting the feel of pushing from the ground and transfering energy through the kinetic chain till you get that down and feel it, probably best to do it with a medicine ball picking from ground and throwing it forward, and you start using ur kinetic chain properly and you don't even think about what body parts activate when and how and where and whatever.

Yeah ... not trying to teach anyone with this post. I am trying to square the tennis instruction I hear all the time “hips go first” with ATP fh video that shows hips and shoulders start turning together. I think it would be pretty common for a beginner to hear the “hip advice” and believe they need to turn shoulders after some hip rotation.

I have my doubts about a heavy medicine ball being analogous. As I suggested in this post, I don’t think you use any/much core at the start of the hip turn. You have a 11ish oz racquet and you are looking for a late core/shoulder turn firing. A medicine ball has enough weight you would be using muscles to support it at the start of the unit turn over the hip joint.

 

[Pete Player]

There is lot of core activity going on right from the start. However core does not turn the hips, but legs do. Core is to maintain proper posture and avoid energy loss due to letting your spine wobble or you to lose posture.

I don’t want to use the word resist, cause it is counter productive. The transfer of the momentum thru body parts is more off the different directions they move, than resisting action. Circular moves, that divert to the inside as their range is closing the end point will ”release” the momentum to the next ”gear”.

If the momentum is pampered properly, the outcome is late acceleration of the racket head and very heavy hits, yet looking effortless. It does not interpret, that you hit lazy or easy. It just shows, that hard effort, max attack on the impact builds up with lot of power put into the sequence in proper rythm makes hard effort look easy.

Hence, slow rally balls can be hit with really ”no effort”.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[Tennisanity]

Hips go first.

 

[ByeByePoly]

If the momentum is pampered properly, the outcome is late acceleration of the racket head and very heavy hits, yet looking effortless. It does not interpret, that you hit lazy or easy. It just shows, that hard effort, max attack on the impact builds up with lot of power put into the sequence in proper rythm makes hard effort look easy.

Hence, slow rally balls can be hit with really ”no effort”.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

Good post.


There is lot of core activity going on right from the start. However core does not turn the hips, but legs do. Core is to maintain proper posture and avoid energy loss due to letting your spine wobble or you to lose posture.

Good ... better refinement of what I was getting at. I was focusing on hip and shoulder rotation ... i.e. things you can check with video review. But yes, core ain't taking a nap.

Yes, core turns shoulders, not hips. But core starts rotating with start of hip rotation (along for the ride).

Yes, leg turns hip ... in fact, upper leg is part of hip.

I don’t want to use the word resist, cause it is counter productive. The transfer of the momentum thru body parts is more off the different directions they move, than resisting action. Circular moves, that divert to the inside as their range is closing the end point will ”release” the momentum to the next ”gear”.

Again ... you said it better. I really liked "circular moves range end points". However we phrase it, the hip+core rotation finishes, and the shoulder rotation continues on. The shoulder rotation pauses, and the arm continues forward. Maybe resistance is the wrong phrase, but here is what I mean by it. If you don't stop the shoulder turn by contact (turn through the shot), you miss the extra momentum pass off. That seems like resistance from the shoulder ... but the terminology isn't the point.

If the momentum is pampered properly, the outcome is late acceleration of the racket head and very heavy hits, yet looking effortless. It does not interpret, that you hit lazy or easy.

You will like this since you are a golfer. I was looking at video of Sergio regarding late release of lag, and watching when his hips started rotation in reference to his shoulders. The instructor on the video said the saying has been:

"The one that finishes the latest is the one that is the greatest. "

I guess that is true unless you are female .. in which case you are just a lot of extra work.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Hips go first.

with companions.

 

[meltphace 6]

Hips don't lie.

 

[RetroSpin]

I think this is not that helpful a road to go down. If you relax and stay balanced, your body already "knows" how to turn most efficiently. You just have to get out of the way. The magic in an ATP FH happens in the wrist/arm and it happens just before impact. Learn how to do that and you can hit a great FH with minimal turn. Watch Mischa in the far court.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I think this is not that helpful a road to go down. If you relax and stay balanced, your body already "knows" how to turn most efficiently. You just have to get out of the way. The magic in an ATP FH happens in the wrist/arm and it happens just before impact. Learn how to do that and you can hit a great FH with minimal turn. Watch Mischa in the far court.

No roads no teaching. I say the same basic thing, if you get in a good athletic stance, hips past feet, shoulders past hips ... the uncoiling should take care of itself.

This post was for me ... seeing if others saw the same explanation for why ATP players hips and shoulders start turning forward together, when many actually think hips rotate some before shoulder rotation starts.

 

[Tennisanity]

with companions.

rib cage lags slightly.

 

[ByeByePoly]

rib cage lags slightly.

Try this ... pause Fed below @00:46.

- hip turn and shoulder turn just about to start
- open stance
- his hips are turned past his feet
- his shoulder is turned past his hips
- pretty much max full hip+shoulder turn
- before anyone says it, this isn't just a partial warm-up stroke ...it's a full stroke

Start video forward and watch when hip rotation starts and when the shoulder turn starts. They start forward at same time.

It's easy to see why with a shadow swing. Take a fh open stance and rotate hips to their limit. Now rotate your shoulders past the hips to their limit.

Now try and rotate your hips forward without the shoulder coming with it. It is not possible if you are at max hip and shoulder turn.

 

[Tennisanity]

Try this ... pause Fed below @00:46.

- hip turn and shoulder turn just about to start
- open stance
- his hips are turned past his feet
- his shoulder is turned past his hips
- pretty much max full hip+shoulder turn
- before anyone says it, this isn't just a partial warm-up stroke ...it's a full stroke

Start video forward and watch when hip rotation starts and when the shoulder turn starts. They start forward at same time.

It's easy to see why with a shadow swing. Take a fh open stance and rotate hips to their limit. Now rotate your shoulders past the hips to their limit.

Now try and rotate your hips forward without the shoulder coming with it. It is not possible if you are at max hip and shoulder turn.

At 0:46 you see his hip turning but wrist/racquet still going back no?

 

[ByeByePoly]

At 0:46 you see his hip turning but wrist/racquet still going back no?

Yes, but his hips and shoulders have already completed the unit turn (backswing). His arm is just finishing up and will travel with shoulder turn when it starts forward.

I could have done better with thread title ... should have been something like:

Did you think on ATP FHs the hips rotate forward before the shoulder starts rotating forward?

 

[Tennisanity]

Yes, but his hips and shoulders have already completed the unit turn (backswing). His arm is just finishing up and will travel with shoulder turn when it starts forward.

I could have done better with thread title ... should have been something like:

Did you think on ATP FHs the hips rotate forward before the shoulder starts rotating forward?

When the hips have already begun moving forward, the racquet and therefore the wrist is still going backwards.

 

[ByeByePoly]

When the hips have already begun moving forward, the racquet and therefore the wrist is still going backwards.

Fed's arm pretty much straightens out in line with his shoulder line. Look at the FH @00:10 ... good angle.

 

[spun_out]

Try this ... pause Fed below @00:46.

- hip turn and shoulder turn just about to start
- open stance
- his hips are turned past his feet
- his shoulder is turned past his hips
- pretty much max full hip+shoulder turn
- before anyone says it, this isn't just a partial warm-up stroke ...it's a full stroke

Start video forward and watch when hip rotation starts and when the shoulder turn starts. They start forward at same time.

Is this the evidence on which your argument is based? If so, I would ask you the opposite: do you have any pro examples of shoulder starting first before the hips?

"At the same time" is a very dangerous word because it is exact. Same is obviously not the same as similar.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Is this the evidence on which your argument is based? If so, I would ask you the opposite: do you have any pro examples of shoulder starting first before the hips?

"At the same time" is a very dangerous word because it is exact. Same is obviously not the same as similar.

Nah ... not dangerous ... and not even an argument, more an observation from watching atp fh video.

Premise: hips rotate first and then the shoulders rotate

Observation: the premise is wrong, doesn't seem to happen. The hips and shoulders start rotating "pretty much" the same time.

The real point is why I think the two things can be correct at the same time:
1) we do start with hip rotation
2) the torso/shoulder turn also starts with #1

I would hear "hips first" ... then I would say "but I see Fed's hips and shoulders turning at same time" ... yada yada yada ... rinse and repeat. I think both were right, neither was wrong.

Edit: you asked about "shoulders first". I believe you will find many FHs (rushed, on the run, etc) where there wasn't much hip, therefore shoulder only/first swings. I don't expect hip only swings... that would be a freak show.

 

[spun_out]

Nah ... not dangerous ... and not even an argument, more an observation from watching atp fh video.

Premise: hips rotate first and then the shoulders rotate

Observation: the premise is wrong, doesn't seem to happen. The hips and shoulders start rotating "pretty much" the same time.

The real point is why I think the two things are correct:
1) we do start with hip rotation
2) the torso/shoulder turn also starts with #1

They seem to start at the same time but do they? Can you tell a difference in one starting 0.1 sec earlier? What about 0.01 sec? Isn't the statement "hips rotate first and then the shoulder rotate" accurate if there is a difference of 0.01 sec?

 

[FiReFTW]

This what happens when and at the same time is so weird.

I just know I use the ground as a platform from where I push with my legs and then that starts a chain of energy that get transfered from my legs through my body all the way up and into my arm and the racquet.

 

[ByeByePoly]

They seem to start at the same time but do they? Can you tell a difference in one starting 0.1 sec earlier? What about 0.01 sec? Isn't the statement "hips rotate first and then the shoulder rotate" accurate if there is a difference of 0.01 sec?

Hips have to rotate six inches or more first, or it is deemed to be the same time. My thread, my rule.

 

[Limpinhitter]

I posted this so @Curious didn't have to.

I will stick with 2hbhs, but ....

Ah ha fh shadow swing moment. I promised myself I would not talk about FHs in 2018. That went well.

Tell me if this matches the sequence of what you "hippy FH players" are doing on your FH:

(Assume open stance FH hitting off back leg)

1) hip turned past feet, shoulders turned past hips
2) forward swing starts with back leg/hip drive
- when this happens your upper body (torso,shoulders,arm,hand) rotates together over the back leg hip joint
- at this point none/little core/torso/shoulder/arm firing
3) after "some" upper body uncoiling, the core/shoulder/arm (arm extending for Fed) firing happens. My guess is this happens around the point where the hip uncoiling ends, and then we fire the upper body (this is probably the throwing motion point Pete and others mention).

So to me, there is no delay in torso/shoulder rotation after hip rotation. There is a delay of "some torso rotation" before the upper body fires. This makes sense because shoulders continue to turn after hip rotation has ended. Just taking a glance at Fed FHs, the shoulder turn (uncoiling) doesn't have a long run past hips until it pauses (temporarily) and the arm continues, but it's there.

This was what I was trying to tell @Pete Player in another thread. I called it stages of resistance:
1) hip uncoiling completes and passes momentum to shoulder turn
2) shoulder uncoiling completes/pauses (shoulder turn will start up again to allow for remaining follow through) and passes momentum to arm
3) arm reaches extension point where hand turns left, and momentum is passed on to racquet rotating around hand.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/a-study-on-the-mechanics-of-the-forehand.570246/

 

[ByeByePoly]

This what happens when and at the same time is so weird.

I just know I use the ground as a platform from where I push with my legs and then that starts a chain of energy that get transfered from my legs through my body all the way up and into my arm and the racquet.

Is it a tingle? Feel any release?

 

[FiReFTW]

Is it a tingle? Feel any release?

Yes the racquet finaly explodes (is released) into the ball at the end of the swing.

 

[spun_out]

Hips have to rotate six inches or more first, or it is deemed to be the same time. My thread, my rule.

Fair enough. But I will say this is why I don't really like video analysis. It cannot really teach us how something should be done.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Fair enough. But I will say this is why I don't really like video analysis. It cannot really teach us how something should be done.

I ain't a teacher ... I am a tennis forum poster.

Video analysis can teach you what not to do. Have you ever looked at your strokes on video. I have looked at mine and can clearly see I shouldn't be doing that.

 

[Tennisanity]

Fed's arm pretty much straightens out in line with his shoulder line. Look at the FH @00:10 ... good angle.

you're not reading what I wrote. When the hips are going forward, the racquet is still going back.

 

[FiReFTW]

I ain't a teacher ... I am a tennis forum poster.

Video analysis can teach you what not to do. Have you ever looked at your strokes on video. I have looked at mine and can clearly see I shouldn't be doing that.

Yes thats good, but you should have an understanding on what the fundamentals are and what the useless bits are.
Some people dont and then they think they are doing something wrong but that thing is not important at all.

 

[ByeByePoly]

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/a-study-on-the-mechanics-of-the-forehand.570246/

Thanks for the link ... will try and look at it tomorrow.

One quick comment about one of your comments in that thread:

From the set up position at the back of the backswing, the forward swing is initiated by rotating the hips, which pulls the torso, which pulls the shoulders, which pulls the arm and racquet in that sequence of events.

I think the rotation over the hips is full lazy susan and not a series of pulling.

This is what I mean. Try this ... stand on back leg only like a open stance FH with front leg off the ground. Now swivel right and left over back leg hip jount. Your entire upper body effortlessly rotates like it was on a lazy susan ... no pulling required. So now consider a open stance with full hip lazy susan coiling, and a good stretch into a full shoulder turn past the hip lazy susan. So when we initiate our open fh with leg/hip drive, we spin our upper body with our shoulders c o c k e d and loaded. I think at a certain point in the spin, we add to the spin rhs with core/shoulder/arm effort in the forward swing.

To be continued ....

 

[watungga]

It's good to just simplify everything and pick your own formula which will make every critical body parts to follow suit and automatically knows what it is expected to do.

I have my own formula, and here it is. As pictured below, I always tell myself this 'pointer' that I have to achieve a ball impact where I could purely 'arm' the ball with a specific late timing that feels like rotating the ball sideways during impact.

I can't do above pointer, unless I tightened my tummy, lead with my torso, lag the racquet and pull it toward the ball. Never mind the grip. Just make sure the racquet closes when its taken back. All these things are secondary and I get explosive shots to work.

 

[Pete Player]

One cannot infuse the ”wrist-hand-magic” into the shot, if you don’t have the roadmap to well timed release present in your rythm.

In bowling people came to my lessons and wished - actually ordered for more revs on the ball and more hooking at the end. However most cases, they did not have a loose arm throw to start the practice with and that totally resists the flipping release in bowling. We had to practice utterly different things before getting even close to adding revs on the ball by flipping the release.

Most the elderly, yet very accurate throwers (avg 195+) have the release image totally the opposite, what was to be done in a modern release. No blame on them though, cause before the modern equipment lifting with the middle and ring fingers were the manner to crank the ball onto the lane.

How hard will it be to revert the idea of lifting into releasing downwards... I can tell you, for most it was impossible.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[Pete Player]

Try this ... pause Fed below @00:46.

- hip turn and shoulder turn just about to start
- open stance
- his hips are turned past his feet
- his shoulder is turned past his hips
- pretty much max full hip+shoulder turn
- before anyone says it, this isn't just a partial warm-up stroke ...it's a full stroke

Start video forward and watch when hip rotation starts and when the shoulder turn starts. They start forward at same time.

It's easy to see why with a shadow swing. Take a fh open stance and rotate hips to their limit. Now rotate your shoulders past the hips to their limit.

Now try and rotate your hips forward without the shoulder coming with it. It is not possible if you are at max hip and shoulder turn.

You are not supposed to to max your take-back shoulder rotation, but to start your hips before the upper parts reach the end point of their range or desired lentgh of your back swing.

Shoulders are still moving backwards, when the initial hip drive starts forward. In slow balls and hitting slow the body moves, hip drive and shoulder turn are timed as well as in full drive, but you only use a fraction of both the range and force. However, hitting arm moves almost full range, easy and slowly (1, yet very relaxed all the way to proper follow thru.

1) compared to full shots
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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[ByeByePoly]

You are not supposed to to max your take-back shoulder rotation, but to start your hips before the upper parts reach the end point of their range or desired lentgh of your back swing.

Shoulders are still moving backwards, when the initial hip drive starts forward. In slow balls and hitting slow the body moves, hip drive and shoulder turn are timed as well as in full drive, but you only use a fraction of both the range and force. However, hitting arm moves almost full range, easy and slowly (1, yet very relaxed all the way to proper follow thru.

1) compared to full shots
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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

Shoulders are still moving backwards, when the initial hip drive starts forward.

Fed's doesn't in the video above, and those are full strokes.

 

[Pete Player]

Shoulders are still moving backwards, when the initial hip drive starts forward.

Fed's doesn't in the video above, and those are full strokes.

Yeah, full shots, but not full pace. He is restricting the outmost power delivery by turning hips slower than he would if he hit a screamer, ie. he is only using his uncoiling for maybe 3/4 speed balls. That is co-operative rallying, and they are defenately not hitting them hard.

Shoulders catch the hips around impact both facing the net while hand is still moving and the racket head is releasing really late.
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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[ByeByePoly]

Yeah, full shots, but not full pace. He is restricting the outmost power delivery by turning hips slower than he would if he hit a screamer, ie. he is only using his uncoiling for maybe 3/4 speed balls. That is co-operative rallying, and they are defenately not hitting them hard.

Shoulders catch the hips around impact both facing the net while hand is still moving and the racket head is releasing really late.
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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

If the tip is "only turn your hips forward while shoulder turn still going back on shots bigger than those Fed are hitting in this video", it's not a rec player tip.

If you find a video of Fed doing that on huge shots, post it. The GOAT does have a bag of tricks.

Thanks for the bowling tip.

 

[ByeByePoly]

It's good to just simplify everything and pick your own formula which will make every critical body parts to follow suit and automatically knows what it is expected to do.

I have my own formula, and here it is. As pictured below, I always tell myself this 'pointer' that I have to achieve a ball impact where I could purely 'arm' the ball with a specific late timing that feels like rotating the ball sideways during impact.

I can't do above pointer, unless I tightened my tummy, lead with my torso, lag the racquet and pull it toward the ball. Never mind the grip. Just make sure the racquet closes when its taken back. All these things are secondary and I get explosive shots to work.

Didn't understand your point, but any pic of Ana improves a thread.

 

[Pete Player]

BBB, I see that hips going first and even before the coil is finished on the video you posted.

It is probably, cause I have that kinetic chain in me and I feel the move as I watch them GOATs and wannabe goats in Telly or slomo. Hence the turn itself is not visible in the one, Slo motion tennis -video, but the effort from his legs is visible to me.

It is truly hard to explain, but I bet, if any rec player could let the upper body or atleast the hand and racket still turn/go backwards, when starting the forward motion of the hips, it would really make a staggering a-ha moment. Even without much of success getting the ball inside the lines, but the feel of it.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[Hmgraphite1]

Hips turn at a velocity, then decelerate, through zero velocity, after they pass through zero point shoulders can pass through zero velocity point ( 1 Pico second or later, depends on nerve speed channel bandwidth), but not before or will tip over unless airborne maybe. Words and video together paint good picture. Agree with most if not all above.

 

[ByeByePoly]

BBB, I see that hips going first and even before the coil is finished on the video you posted.

It is probably, cause I have that kinetic chain in me and I feel the move as I watch them GOATs and wannabe goats in Telly or slomo. Hence the turn itself is not visible in the one, Slo motion tennis -video, but the effort from his legs is visible to me.

It is truly hard to explain, but I bet, if any rec player could let the upper body or atleast the hand and racket still turn/go backwards, when starting the forward motion of the hips, it would really make a staggering a-ha moment. Even without much of success getting the ball inside the lines, but the feel of it.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

I definitely don't see what you are in this Fed video, but once we are down to "subtle hard to see", we are past what I am pointing out in this thread.

You have been posting here longer than me so let me ask this. Don't you think a lot of players reading this forum believe on a FH you are suppose to:

1) rotate hips
2) then rotate shoulders

I'm not talking about muscle stretching or something other than leg/hip first. I am talking about a false notion of a significant hip rotation occuring before shoulder rotation.

That's my point, I think a rec player is misguided if they think all of this means delay shoulder rotation until after hip rotation. I had a good friend that did the same thing in golf with the instruction "clear the hips". He ended up with a violent rotation of the hips first (belly button ended up facing down the fairway ... hip rotation reached it's end point, and then and only then the shoulders would rotate. Ugly ... but he actually pulled it off because gifted on coordination front (pretty much pro level racquetball player when young, and made it to 4.5 tennis starting tennis around 40 years old. Now I go watch Sergio and Tiger slow motion ... and same thing as tennis. Hips and shoulders start together.

This thread was more about me completing my thoughts about the tips on hips here. I just came to the conclusion 1) hip action ... YES 2) that means hip rotation first ... NO.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Hips turn at a velocity, then decelerate, through zero velocity, after they pass through zero point shoulders can pass through zero velocity point ( 1 Pico second or later, depends on nerve speed channel bandwidth), but not before or will tip over unless airborne maybe. Words and video together paint good picture. Agree with most if not all above.

Can you elaborate or say again ... didn't understand all of it.

 

[Hmgraphite1]

Does not really apply to the thread as you point out cause it kain't be seen.

 

[watungga]

Didn't understand your point, but any pic of Ana improves a thread.

I put out the best I could tell how to explain my pointer. It's tough to convey but then I told the top rank guy from my club, if he understands. He did and he explained some contributing factor on why you have bad days.

That one factor is hitting the ball a nanosec early. Its effects are:
- shanking the ball, or you wont know what part of your stringbed the ball's gonna land
- you executed a phantom stroke when the ball landed as intended to the other side. You have no idea how it happened.
- you won the game but you are not happy with how you play.

Again, timing is the core of my pointer.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I put out the best I could tell how to explain my pointer. It's tough to convey but then I told the top rank guy from my club, if he understands. He did and he explained some contributing factor on why you have bad days.

That one factor is hitting the ball a nanosec early. Its effects are:
- shanking the ball, or you wont know what part of your stringbed the ball's gonna land
- you executed a phantom stroke when the ball landed as intended to the other side. You have no idea how it happened.
- you won the game but you are not happy with how you play.

Again, timing is the core of my pointer.

Thanks ... and early prep to avoid being rushed regardless of our different techniques.

 

[Pete Player]

@Hmgraphite1,

It is evident, that bodyparts must halt at some point in tennis-like shots, but to my understanding, more than zero velocity, the acceleration of outer circles are due to direction change of the previous movements.

Velocity, especially in a circular move is a vector unit. Zero velocity may occur and in some occations do in the direction of the target, but the total speed of your, say hips is not to stop before going into follow thru. The outer and/or later circles will gain that forward speed as the first and prior circles continue moving sideways or even backwards from the target - impact.

I’ve refered to a trebuchet many times, and I think understanding, what is happening, when the basket accelerates and sends the projectile off will answer the question of what should we look for in optime tennis shot as well. The arm, either straight or bent would be the lever a mass (body) is propelling and hand shoud work kind of like a whip.

I’ve put this idea down endless times, but still find it really hard to explain in a manner, tennis geegs would understand it thoroughly.

Maybe in short it would be, that turn your shoulders to move your arm and don’t try to force (especially with your shoulder or arm muscles) the racket onto the ball, but let it release.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[ChaelAZ]

Seems complicated. My observation have been:

• Off arm starts pulling back and there may be slight hip rotation starting, but not as part of driving the forehand forward (more as part of the weight transfer starting to push to the outside leg).
  
• Then in most cases everything moves synchronously, or some start with a hip rotation ever so slightly when moving up through the chain.

That's it. At least what I see.

 

[Pete Player]

Seems complicated. ...

Well, I’m a man of many physical metaphors, and words too, when writing out something, I would speak more in common manner, when coaching...

Wouldn’t you think, it is more of a push with the off hand in the take-back?
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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer[/QUOTE]

 

[ByeByePoly]

Seems complicated. My observation have been:

• Off arm starts pulling back and there may be slight hip rotation starting, but not as part of driving the forehand forward (more as part of the weight transfer starting to push to the outside leg).
  
• Then in most cases everything moves synchronously, or some start with a hip rotation ever so slightly when moving up through the chain.

That's it. At least what I see.

You see very clearly ... that explains your clean contact on those 1hbh missile strikes.

I got some new bloopers for your next blooper thread. Turns out trying some tips can cause bruising ... who knew.

 

[Pete Player]

...
Turns out trying some tips can cause bruising ... who knew.

We used to call it the G-force rash. Blood oozing out to the surface due to low altitude dog fight and heavy G-load on you.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[ByeByePoly]

We used to call it the G-force rash. Blood oozing out to the surface due to low altitude dog fight and heavy G-load on you.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

If only it was that exciting. I merely tried 1) the Nishikori max 2hbh racquet head drop ... and 2) catching my fh with left hand.

1 - racquet head to BBP head
2 - some catches followed by wrap to back of knuckles.

I guess I should stick with arm friendly strings and head friendly FHs.

 

[ChaelAZ]

You see very clearly ...

Dunno if it is technically correct by the kinetic chain gurus, but just went back and looked through some of the videos I have saved of FH's and seems to me that hip movement/rotation happens in time with the racquet moving forward. In some cases as mentioned I do see a bit of hip activation just before forward swing movement, but not by much. Putting together a commentary video really quick. Post in a minute.