Open stance FH hip sequence

[ChaelAZ]

Hey, already uploaded. Cool. Thoughts?

 

[ChaelAZ]

Mind you, it is all situational to how the ball is coming in, how much movement the player is doing to setup, etc.

 

[Limpinhitter]

Dunno if it is technically correct by the kinetic chain gurus, but just went back and looked through some of the videos I have saved of FH's and seems to me that hip movement/rotation happens in time with the racquet moving forward. In some cases as mentioned I do see a bit of hip activation just before forward swing movement, but not by much. Putting together a commentary video really quick. Post in a minute.

When the hip moves foreward, it pulls the torso and shoulders, and, if your arm and grip are loose and relaxed, the racquet head drops back and down. There isn't a big obvious separation in the sequence.

 

[Hmgraphite1]

Thanks ... and early prep to avoid being rushed regardless of our different techniques.

@Hmgraphite1,

It is evident, that bodyparts must halt at some point in tennis-like shots, but to my understanding, more than zero velocity, the acceleration of outer circles are due to direction change of the previous movements.

Velocity, especially in a circular move is a vector unit. Zero velocity may occur and in some occations do in the direction of the target, but the total speed of your, say hips is not to stop before going into follow thru. The outer and/or later circles will gain that forward speed as the first and prior circles continue moving sideways or even backwards from the target - impact.

I’ve refered to a trebuchet many times, and I think understanding, what is happening, when the basket accelerates and sends the projectile off will answer the question of what should we look for in optime tennis shot as well. The arm, either straight or bent would be the lever a mass (body) is propelling and hand shoud work kind of like a whip.

I’ve put this idea down endless times, but still find it really hard to explain in a manner, tennis geegs would understand it thoroughly.

Maybe in short it would be, that turn your shoulders to move your arm and don’t try to force (especially with your shoulder or arm muscles) the racket onto the ball, but let it release.


——————————
On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

Seems complicated. My observation have been:

• Off arm starts pulling back and there may be slight hip rotation starting, but not as part of driving the forehand forward (more as part of the weight transfer starting to push to the outside leg).
  
• Then in most cases everything moves synchronously, or some start with a hip rotation ever so slightly when moving up through the chain.

That's it. At least what I see.

All I can say is reading all these posts and trying things out in front of the tv while watching Ostepenko, Stephens, Coric, Zverev etc is really helping me with build up my core and develop practice strokes that include a step or two or three , sometimes a crossover including return of serve , backing up to get out of the way on a deep ball or body serve, or lunging out left or right for wide serve. The interesting one was lunging out to right for fh wide serve where the pivot point was in 'the middle ' of the spine with the hips still rotating right as the torso and shoulders were rotating left with the shot.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Dunno if it is technically correct by the kinetic chain gurus, but just went back and looked through some of the videos I have saved of FH's and seems to me that hip movement/rotation happens in time with the racquet moving forward. In some cases as mentioned I do see a bit of hip activation just before forward swing movement, but not by much. Putting together a commentary video really quick. Post in a minute.

Chael ... this thread should be a warning for tennis players everywhere ... don't hurt your hamstring. It sends you down the technical rabbit hole.

My opinion has always been on FHs:

hip and shoulder and hand travel in line until shoulder turn pauses.

 

[ChaelAZ]

Chael ... this thread should be a warning for tennis players everywhere ... don't hurt your hamstring. It sends you down the technical rabbit hole.

My opinion has always been on FHs:

hip and shoulder and hand travel in line until shoulder turn pauses.

Really all I care about is how to I put things in layman terms, then transfer it to a workable drill for myself or people I help.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Really all I care about is how to I put things in layman terms, then transfer it to a workable drill for myself or people I help.

I run into trouble here when I want to entertain the software engineer in me. Sometimes I just want to get the "how the body parts are actually doing there thing". For example, this thread was never about "how to teach it", or ques you would use to teach yourself muscle memory. We only have one "tips and techniques". We probably need a "technical geek out" thread.

I watched your video, and I take it further than his observation. I created a thread with pic and visual support that "the hand travels with the shoulder line". We all know the false idea that "the arm lags", when in reality it really doesn't ... the "racquet lags". Regardless if straight arm like Fed, or some bent arm freak show like Kyrgios in that video, the hand pretty much travels in line with the shoulder line on the forward swing. In your posted video you can see the shoulder turns complete, and then the arm bends in the shoulder joint past the shoulder line (obviously the hand also travels past the shoulder line at that point into contact). Note... Kyrgios elbow will be behind the shoulder line ... but that doesn't mean he lagged the hand back behind the shoulder line. You might find some slight bend back at the shoulder line ... but me and @Bender beat this topic to death. And yes ... maybe there is some shoulder muscle stretching at the joint that ins't visible ... but at that point even the geek I am have my eyes roll closed. Jeeze.

So watch your posted video again and see if you don't think ... pretty much ... Hips, Shoulders and the hand all rotate together. I think they do.

Also note the difference between the Gasquet weight-transfer FH. He rotates around the front hip ... all the others rotate around the past hip. Hip rotation isn't a generic term ... we have two of them. Now, it seems what is the same is with Gasquet's weight transfer FH... is once he starts rotating over the front hip, again ... the hip, shoulder and hand rotate together.

In your video, the guy comments on what I have said before about weight transfer FHs (I have said this mainly about 2hbh, but it's the same for closed/neutral FHs). You don't uncoil hips during the step. I know I have hip turn (coiling) with my 2hbh around my back leg. Then I step and there is no uncoiling or core firing during the step. I land on the front leg, and then rotate around the front hip. The real tricky part is ... "did the coiling over the back leg position me in a coiled front leg at landing". It seems so to me, because my front (right) foot is pointing somewhere between sideline and left net post, and I have a large range of rotation over that front leg. Not sure about that one ... I have tried to work that out in my head shadow swinging, and tricky. In either case, any uncoiling has to happen after that front leg landed. IMO, on the 2hbh, I think I am getting more rhs from the weight transfer and good timing of the front hip rotation (spin ... I call it step & spin) ... and shoulder uncoiling after front foot lands, than any hip firing around that front leg.

One last geeky thought. Sinjin (where is he btw ... I miss him) taught be a big part (possible part) of the weight transfer (closed/neutral) FHs. You can step forward with no hip turn, but with your shoulder turn already completed, and get that front leg hip turn during the step (you achieve the hip/shoulder separation with the step). I proved it for myself ... you most definitely can do that. Do most rec players do that ... I doubt it. I suspect most weight transfer FHs are mainly shoulder-turn only FHs.

Geeky fun...

 

[ByeByePoly]

When the hip moves foreward, it pulls the torso and shoulders, and, if your arm and grip are loose and relaxed, the racquet head drops back and down. There isn't a big obvious separation in the sequence.

My only small quibble might be the use of the phrase "pulls the torso forward". Did you try my "lazy susan" shadow swing. Don't answer that ... I know the answer. The entire upper body rotates effortlessly (without applying upper body effort) around the back leg hip automatically once you rotate the hip. The only way you could make that happen is start from shoulders in line with the hips, and when hips rotate forward, rotate your shoulders back.

I'm off to try origin/velocity with the ball machine. 55 degrees and no wind ... yippee!!!

 

[ChaelAZ]

So watch your posted video again and see if you don't think ... pretty much ... Hips, Shoulders and the hand all rotate together. I think they do.

Really, like @Limpinhitter mentioned above, there IS a slight lead on the hip rotation. My understanding is that it helps increase the stretch to increase energy for release, as well as part of positioning. Whatever it is, I am sure I don't do enough of it.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Good pics @Limpinhitter for discussion. I think we all can assume this is a maxish full FH ... no warm up exceptions.

pic 1
About to start uncoiling ... hips past feet ... shoulders past hips

pic 2
uncoiling around back leg (right) hip. Note the hips and shoulders have rotated together ... shoulder line still past hip line

pic 3
between pic 2 and 3, shoulders caught up with hips. Note: this is before contact. From pic 2 to 3, hip and shoulder and hand are traveling together (shoulder and hand in line, hip line forward of shoulder line but rotating together)

pic 4
arm has passed shoulder line. Happens as shoulder reaches an end of range extension point and passes the momentum to the arm.

pic 5 and 6
follow through rotation continues

After watching more video, and shadow swinging ... I have updated my open FH body parts sequence theory. What remains is:
1) don't believe hips are rotated before shoulders are rotated
2) do believe leg drive and hip rotation happens first, but shoulder and arm comes along at same time
3) by pic 3 above, a lot of arm effort has been added

Something like this:

1) at same time the leg/hip drive happens, we fire the core/shoulder/? muscles required to turn shoulders. No arm effort here yet other than supporting arm and racquet, arm simply travels with shoulder turn. I do not view this as a sequence of hip to shoulder events ... I think it's hip firing and shoulder firing at the same time.
2) between pic 2 and 3, a lot of arm effort is added (probably at point pulling forward from slot). Most of us agree we add non-dom arm effort in the forward 2hbh swing. I think the same happens with the FH. I thought the significant arm effort happened right when forward shoulder turn started, but have changed my mind. With fh shadow swings, the arm is merely along for the ride at the start of shoulder turn. But long before contact, the arm fires and adds to the rhs. You can see this with fed as he extends his arm ... his hand reaches the full extension point, and then arm effort fires with shoulder turn.

I don't think it's hip/shoulder timing that makes the world class FH. I think it's the timing of the shoulder + arm effort with the magic that happens around the wrist. It's why pros can still hit awesome shots with no hip turn at all ... the timing of the arm at the shoulder and racquet rotation around the hand are constants.

Yes ... Sinjin said I was the kinetic chain flat earther. I prefer to think I was that first guy that said "I don't believe you can get syphilis from a toilet lid".

Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of BBP and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of professional tennis instructors.

Edit: Watched Osteopenia vs Stephens final ... no delay from shoulder turn and arm effort. When they hammer with the shoulder they also hammer with the arm.

ATP FH - arm effort delay after start of shoulder turn. No delay for WTA with arm/hand behind body on backswing.