open stance serve
- Thread starter dlam
- Start date
The Aceserver
Professional
You lose the rotational aspect when serving with a more open stance. It will be harder to get margin over the net (kick second serves), and you won’t get to use all angles. I think a pro example would be Rinderknech. His serve is still really good, but limited.
Dragy
G.O.A.T.
It’s only relevant if you use proper grip and proper “throwing” mechanics.
If you swat at the ball with FH/pancake grip, quite possible no need for “closed” stance.
What’s your case? Have you been coached to serve?
Dragy
G.O.A.T.
That's true, but I won't be going more open than Bublik or Rublev, anyway...
Curious
Talk Tennis Guru
As a platform stance server I feel a square stance like Becker’s is good enough. Why does it have to be hugely closed like Federer’s or Sampras while almost every pinpoint stance ends up being either neutral or slightly open?
The throwing motion which is intrinsic to a good serve lends itself to a more closed stance versus an open stance.
I suppose you could possibly try to pattern a serve after an open stance similar to the way some pitchers pitch but presumably you'd still end up closing by rotation the upper body in order to execute an effective throwing motion. I think the more unwieldy racquet which is being "thrown" would hamper that kind of maneuver compared to something smaller like a baseball.
I've never thought to try and experiment with an open stance serve, but if you try it out please let us know about your experience.
dlam
Professional
I Look at Rinderknech serve. I think it helps to be 6’6” he doesn’t require the margin that a shorter guy closer to 6 feet tall needs to kick spin the ball into the serve court
Dragy
G.O.A.T.
Different dynamics. Longer uncoil rather than forward momentum turned into cartwheel. Also with all that — going for more topspin component than pure sidespin. Need to remain sideways for shoulder-over-shoulder despite long uncoil…
dlam
Professional
Yes agreed. I think a reverse spin serve like the one Taylor Fritz does for fun from the ad side can be easier with open stance
Curious
Talk Tennis Guru
A square stance (Becker) is good enough for both, especially for a rec player.
dlam
Professional
Don’t see these type of serve and volleyers that land on their right foot and then rush to the net anymore Becker’s serve was great back then
Dragy
G.O.A.T.
Well he’s pinpoint, no? And using Aussie grip. Yes, can work. But I prefer Sinner/Rublev style pinpoint now. Not too closed, for sure.
Curious
Talk Tennis Guru
Yeah, no idea about that weird right foot landing. The stance makes perfect sense to me though.
Curious
Talk Tennis Guru
No, it’s platform. A narrowish one, which I also think is a great idea for a rec player.
dlam
Professional
Yes I agree. Throwers naturally start with closed shoulders I was looking to see if anyone had a truely open stance that was any good and all I could come up with was Goran Ivanisevic
So I tried that style but I think biomechanics it’s not as consistent as starting off closed
Mountain Ghost
Professional
When learning and developing your serve ... (right handed deuce side) ... your elbow will be coming over your hitting shoulder NOT towards your target (deuce service box) ... but towards the right net post ... which will require your shoulders to stay more closed.
~ MG
~ MG
dlam
Professional
Here Goran's serve video
He is open stance most of the time, some might argue is more neutral stance but he is definitely not closed stance to begin with
the serve motion
His pinpoint is a bit unique in that both feet are more "open pinpoint" style then the more common neutral pinpoint style now a days
What I cannot get is how it is possible to serve with feet so open like this to begin with
From what I can observe in the video , Goran start his serving motion very low with bent knees and bending extreme forward at the waist
Most other players are standing taller when starting the serve motion
He has a Great serve that worked for him is the important thing
For most player who have an open stance the shoulder would be open too but I think Goran makes adjustments
by bending down really low and he preturns his shoulder so his chest is closed/neutral with open foot stance
I think that why we dont see that type of open stance serve as much , it require some bending and twisting of the head and upper torso at the start of the serve to be effective
Most players with pinpoints end up with feet together in more neutral position at trophy position
So I think it more natural with slightly closed stance to begin with as then it more biomechanical sound to turn and open the upper torso when getting to trophy position
Any comments?
Ps
Another unique aspect of Goran serve is extreme low ball toss.
I believe that because his motion was very simple leap up and serve without much turning of the torso his toss is shorten to account for his quick rhythm
looks like he was tossing the ball so as to serve before ball reached the apex
Don’t see that extreme low toss in today’s game
He is open stance most of the time, some might argue is more neutral stance but he is definitely not closed stance to begin with
the serve motion
His pinpoint is a bit unique in that both feet are more "open pinpoint" style then the more common neutral pinpoint style now a days
What I cannot get is how it is possible to serve with feet so open like this to begin with
From what I can observe in the video , Goran start his serving motion very low with bent knees and bending extreme forward at the waist
Most other players are standing taller when starting the serve motion
He has a Great serve that worked for him is the important thing
For most player who have an open stance the shoulder would be open too but I think Goran makes adjustments
by bending down really low and he preturns his shoulder so his chest is closed/neutral with open foot stance
I think that why we dont see that type of open stance serve as much , it require some bending and twisting of the head and upper torso at the start of the serve to be effective
Most players with pinpoints end up with feet together in more neutral position at trophy position
So I think it more natural with slightly closed stance to begin with as then it more biomechanical sound to turn and open the upper torso when getting to trophy position
Any comments?
Ps
Another unique aspect of Goran serve is extreme low ball toss.
I believe that because his motion was very simple leap up and serve without much turning of the torso his toss is shorten to account for his quick rhythm
looks like he was tossing the ball so as to serve before ball reached the apex
Don’t see that extreme low toss in today’s game
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Dragy
G.O.A.T.
How is this “open”? What are you looking at? He’s showing his back to the opponent, his hips are 90 degree to the baseline. Feet are pinpoint and least significant for this discussion:
dlam
Professional
photo is at trophy position. Everyone looks almost identical more or less neutral at trophy.How is this “open”? What are you looking at? He’s showing his back to the opponent, his hips are 90 degree to the baseline. Feet are pinpoint and least significant for this discussion:
My discussion is how he starts his serve motion
At the start of the serve his feet and stance are wide open then he brings feet to pinpoint
His toes are knees look like are pointed to the net
What’s your ideal pinpoint feet position ?
Last edited:
Dragy
G.O.A.T.
I agree he's open with his prep and his feet. Yet he compensates a lot with trunk twist, and gets shoulders oriented same sideways as most other players. That's not what's easy to copy for rec player, in my opimion.
this photo is at a better angle to see how his feet and hips are positioned open
From the side can’t tell how open or closed the hips/knees and feet
look from front/ posterior view
dlam
Professional
Yes after one month of trying very open. Then trying very closed stance. There too much compensation of either twisting ( when very closed) or not turning enough of my trunk( when open) The very best for me is to start off sideways square
dlam
Professional
So after practicing this type of open stance The problem with open stance where Both toes are pointed at the net just before impact. Eventually it feels like upper trunk and arm does all the work with little contribution from hips and legs. Preturn to square the hips and legs seems to allow me to have more consistent serve
this photo is at a better angle to see how his feet and hips are positioned open
From the side can’t tell how open or closed the hips/knees and feet
look from front/ posterior view
badmice2
Professional
Best topic I’ve read today thanks to @dlam.
There’s all these talks about pronation from other threads and how important it is to serve. And now we have this talking about the importance of stance and trunk turn in serving.
I would love to hear from someone breaking down why stance and trunk turn is necessary when we put so much emphasis on pronation…
- is trunk turn and pronation independent of each other?
- if they’re connected what is more important? Trunk turn or pronation? Only reason I ask is that folks cannot stop talking about pronation.
- in the order of importance (if there is one) which is it? Trunk turn or pronation?
Stance matters only if trunk turn matters. If folks keep beating the dead horse in that pronation is what makes a serve great, then why do we need a proper stance for trunk turn? You can theorically hit a serve with pronation in open stances.
The debate is now open.
There’s all these talks about pronation from other threads and how important it is to serve. And now we have this talking about the importance of stance and trunk turn in serving.
I would love to hear from someone breaking down why stance and trunk turn is necessary when we put so much emphasis on pronation…
- is trunk turn and pronation independent of each other?
- if they’re connected what is more important? Trunk turn or pronation? Only reason I ask is that folks cannot stop talking about pronation.
- in the order of importance (if there is one) which is it? Trunk turn or pronation?
Stance matters only if trunk turn matters. If folks keep beating the dead horse in that pronation is what makes a serve great, then why do we need a proper stance for trunk turn? You can theorically hit a serve with pronation in open stances.
The debate is now open.
enishi1357
Semi-Pro
You have two legs close to the racquet instead of just one leg. That's it.
Dragy
G.O.A.T.
What we emphasize as core serving mechanics is not just “pronation”, it’s “throwing motion”. Which is based on loading shoulder into ESR stretch and then releasing into ISR (whole arm long axis rotation).
The loading happens when shoulder is accelerated up and around (the spine as axis), while arm and racquet drops back/lags passively, due to inertia.
Hence leg drive and trunk rotation is what exactly powers shoulder acceleration and provides shoulder “loading” via big muscle stretching. To be then released during upward swing.
Topspin Shot
Legend
Once upon a time, there was a poster called oserver who spammed TT with threads about his revolutionary open stance serve (which was actually no better than a typical 3.5 player's serve) until he got banned.
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