Open tennis kick serve practice (upper body)

boramiNYC said:
But don't kid yourself and think you're in a path to a discovery. IMO it has very little chance for that. And comparison to open stance fh is absurd.
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Comparison to open stance fh is not absurd at all. I wrote this paragraph in a paper titled "Open Tennis Serves (open stance or grip or both)" on my linkedIn page -

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/article/20140903061426-139904838-open-tennis-serves?trk=mp-reader-card

"Lets focus on the left hip muscle for a moment (for the right hander, using platform stance or pin-point stance as an example.) If a server's stance is closed and two feet are lined up with path of the serve (many recreational players do this way), the left hip muscle acts as mainly a support function, not much rotational movement is provided by this muscle. More advanced players take the back feet clockwise further so the left hip also becomes a rotational focus point, contributing to angular momentum generation. This is an advanced movement to apply the proven technology used in open stance ground stroke. If we simplify this using the letter x to represent arms and legs, the cross point as the left hip. In lower level serves the x is rocking back and forth roughly in a flat plane, but the advanced serves the X is rotating while rocking back and forth, the left hip is not just acting as mainly a support, but can provide much needed angular momentum for generating more spin and pace. Apply this principle, when one open the grip (or stance) toward semi-western, your body from toe to fist tend to do more X, less x. This is one of the reason to explain why when I did open tennis serves, I did not serve worse (at least, many times better) than I was using closed stance and grips."
 
Topspin Shot said:
Baseball, frisbee, and football all require spin and placement. Not sure about javelin. Regardless, every good server I've ever seen uses a closed stance and continental grip.


"Your serve is not a good example because it isn't a good serve.
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"

OP - Topspin has a point. The proof is in the pudding so to speak. If you can post a video with the ball going a lot faster, actually having topspin or kick, and landing in most of the time- that would help your case.
 
I find it incredibly disturbing that you devoted such a long Linkedin article to your open stance serve. I'm really digging the major though.
 
Maximagq said:
I find it incredibly disturbing that you devoted such a long Linkedin article to your open stance serve. I'm really digging the major though.
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dude's also a certified USPTA coach.

oserver, sorry, but i dont get it. why the open stance? im not one to analyze people but in your video, you have minimal shoulder rotation, all your power comes from arm/shoulder, and none of your serves go in. you've essentially eliminated all the aspects of your serve that would give you that power/kick, not to mention you've also put a limit on how much better your serve can get.

while im an advocate of trying new things, this one makes absolutely no sense to me.
 
You need a catchier name than
Open Tennis Serves (open stance or grip or both)

I suggest the following:

The IHOP pancake grip serve. "Your serves will be sweeter than maple syrup"

Also contact the International House of Pancakes and get them to sponsor you.
Maybe they'll spring for some IHOP server polos for you to wear.
 
OP, your inability to serve well with the classic technique and the ease you found with your technique are not proof of anything of further potential but that your coordination is lacking, no offense, and some compromise is working better.
 
arche3 said:
Why would anyone want to copy your serve when we have thousands of atp serve models on YouTube? 5.0 is rec play.
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Simpler model to copy. For example, I would rather copy a guy like Alex Clayton's forehand (former Stanford #1) than Roger Federer's forehand (former world #1 professional player) because his forehand is easier to emulate.
 
Maximagq said:
Simpler model to copy. For example, I would rather copy a guy like Alex Clayton's forehand (former Stanford #1) than Roger Federer's forehand (former world #1 professional player) because his forehand is easier to emulate.
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You could put up a serve video of a d1 college player then. You put up a rec 5.0 club tennis serve.
Why not just copy the local 3.5 guy from the park? That's easy too. How low do you want to go?
 
Hard to tell Peter's service grip because the vid starts when he's already looping at trophy position.
The one tell on the very first serve, his racket face open slightly, indicates a continental grip (like Nadal's), but with a slight twist towards Fore hand side, but not anything near eastern forehand.
If anything, his grip is very pistol, like McEnroe's, him pointing the racket as an extension of his forearm, creating very little angle.
This pointing pistol SEEMS to give a more consistent serve, as the contact point more often results with the same wrist angle on each and every serve.
 
arche3 said:
You could put up a serve video of a d1 college player then. You put up a rec 5.0 club tennis serve.
Why not just copy the local 3.5 guy from the park? That's easy too. How low do you want to go?
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Doesn't he get revenue from people watching his videos?

Harry
 
Tight Lines said:
Doesn't he get revenue from people watching his videos?

Harry
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Yeah but he said it's only after tons of views. I don't know why he thinks anyone would want to copy his serve?
On this forum there are posters who serve way better with posted video. If anything we should copy Ballers serve. Or the magician of precision . Or numerous other posters with far superior serves. Even some new guys that have posted a video and left have better serves.
 
Not saying you're wrong, but TennisBalla is 6'3" tall, as is MoPrecision.
Matt is 5'11" tall.
Resulting leverage difference and contact point difference of easily 6" makes a huge difference in the results.
The mechanics, however, are similar enough. Don't both TB and MoP use a very low elbow just before trophy position, then raise the elbow to "correct" height as an additional motion?
 
Sorry to belabor this point, but I don't think we've seen kick serves from TB, MofP, OR Matt.
From Shroud vs Yaz, yes. From me vs PapaMango, maybe.
Before you get on my case, one of my serves to PMango, the one he crushed into my low backhand volley, had a contact point around eye high, and PM is 5'10" tall, and I wasn't going for high bouncers at all that day.
 
LeeD said:
Not saying you're wrong, but TennisBalla is 6'3" tall, as is MoPrecision.
Matt is 5'11" tall.
Resulting leverage difference and contact point difference of easily 6" makes a huge difference in the results.
The mechanics, however, are similar enough. Don't both TB and MoP use a very low elbow just before trophy position, then raise the elbow to "correct" height as an additional motion?
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Balla and magician have very smooth mechanics. Matt does not. The height doesn't matter to learn or emulate. You should emulate the fluidity and ease of a good serve. Not the tense looking one of a lower level player.
 
Maybe, "advanced" for OP is 4.0.
For most of you guys, "advanced" is ATP worthy.
After all, 4.0 IS advanced for recreational playground tennis.
 
arche3 said:
Yeah but he said it's only after tons of views. I don't know why he thinks anyone would want to copy his serve?
On this forum there are posters who serve way better with posted video. If anything we should copy Ballers serve. Or the magician of precision . Or numerous other posters with far superior serves. Even some new guys that have posted a video and left have better serves.
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I agree with the statements of balla and TMOP having better serves but would like to see some of these other people that you are mentioning. I know a few but I don't know if we are thinking of the same people.
 
As stated, Balla and MofP are taller, bigger players.
Looking at ATP pros around 5'11", lots have "strained" serve motions, since at that size, pure power is impossible to come by without huge major physical efforts. Hewitt.
Look at the motions of the shorter guys. More strain and the need for faster swingspeeds than the body is really capable of performing, and lots of spin serves, less flattish serves.
 
Maximagq said:
I agree with the statements of balla and TMOP having better serves but would like to see some of these other people that you are mentioning. I know a few but I don't know if we are thinking of the same people.
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I don't remember the names. But there have been some good serve videos besides balla and MOP. You have a really good serve now but it is not impressive in the sense anyone would want to emulate you over atp or even high level college players.
 
arche3 said:
I don't remember the names. But there have been some good serve videos besides balla and MOP. You have a really good serve now but it is not impressive in the sense anyone would want to emulate you over atp or even high level college players.
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Ok I agree on that point. I would still emulate my serve instead of the OP's. That was the point I was trying to make.
 
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Maximagq said:
Ok I agree on that point. I would still emulate my serve instead of the OP's. That was the point I was trying to make.
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well yeah. the OP has a pancake.... lol.
not that there is anything wrong with a pancake if that's what you do. but the OP looks like he is athletic and can actually learn a proper serve.
 
LeeD said:
Not saying you're wrong, but TennisBalla is 6'3" tall, as is MoPrecision.
Matt is 5'11" tall.
Resulting leverage difference and contact point difference of easily 6" makes a huge difference in the results.
The mechanics, however, are similar enough. Don't both TB and MoP use a very low elbow just before trophy position, then raise the elbow to "correct" height as an additional motion?
Click to expand...

I posted my video for a purpose - open up stances and grips for tennis serve. Otherwise there is no point to post a 4.0 serve, or 5.0 serve or even a 6.0 serve instead top AtP top 100 player's serves. Second, I never ask anybody to copy me. I just like more able people to have an open mind to break the myth (the conti grip only and close stance only myths). Looks like I ignited a little fire and so many people try to distinguish it quickly.

Speak about the height, I'm 5'7" and turn to 65 this year. If I'm 5'11" and 40 something younger, my serves will bounce high on the fence easy. The following video can prove my point (full court view of my serves start at 2:03).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UttutgJqVvg

Keep in mind I was switch from varieties of serves - conti grip, eastern forehand/semi-western grip, pin-point/platform stance and open/semi-open stances.
 
Lol. Now we know why the OP can't hit a decent continental grip serve. Maybe you should have come on here asking for advice on how to fix your serve instead of promoting your open stances and forehand grips.

Open_zpse6ad461d.jpg
 
Topspin Shot said:
Lol. Now we know why the OP can't hit a decent continental grip serve. Maybe you should have come on here asking for advice on how to fix your serve instead of promoting your open stances and forehand grips.

Open_zpse6ad461d.jpg
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Thank you for saving me time and effort to post my serve image:) This picture actually contradict all the pancake callers' assertions. The racket head is still edge leading at that height, and the projected contact point will line up with my fully extended arm and left leg. By the way, pointing this out does not imply I like beginners to copy me, as someone here tried to do without some sense of modesty.
 
oserver said:
Thank you for saving me time and effort to post my serve image:) This picture actually contradict all the pancake callers' assertions. The racket head is still edge leading at that height, and the projected contact point will line up with my fully extended arm and left leg. By the way, pointing this out does not imply I like beginners to copy me, as someone here tried to do without some sense of modesty.
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You're utterly clueless, aren't you? First of all, I'm not even convinced that grip is continental. It looks more like eastern forehand. Your tossing arm never even goes up. In the image, your chest is completely facing the net. The racket has leaked behind your back as your knees were still going down. The racket drop goes straight down your back, which is completely wrong. You are not leading with the edge; you have a blatant waiter's tray. Your hitting arm is off line with your shoulders approaching contact. The racket is in line with your forearm. Both wrong. Very minimal shoulder rotation, and the timing of the forehand pronation is wrong. I'm surprised your shoulder has survived your motion. You fall off balance to the left in the follow through with no drive into the court. And best of all, the serve went into the bottom of the net. Epic fail. There's your analysis.
 
Topspin Shot said:
You're utterly clueless, aren't you? First of all, I'm not even convinced that grip is continental. It looks more like eastern forehand. Your tossing arm never even goes up. In the image, your chest is completely facing the net. The racket has leaked behind your back as your knees were still going down. The racket drop goes straight down your back, which is completely wrong. You are not leading with the edge; you have a blatant waiter's tray. Your hitting arm is off line with your shoulders approaching contact. The racket is in line with your forearm. Both wrong. Very minimal shoulder rotation, and the timing of the forehand pronation is wrong. I'm surprised your shoulder has survived your motion. You fall off balance to the left in the follow through with no drive into the court. And best of all, the serve went into the bottom of the net. Epic fail. There's your analysis.
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Ding ding, we have a winner!
I would sooner consider slicing every forehand than open stance/grip serving. Does not look like a good idea to me.
 
OP is certain personality type somewhat more common in the SF area. Don't try arguing with him. Just let him do his thing.
 
I would like to try playing with a frying pan one day. I wonder what is the highest level player I could beat with a frying pan?
 
The OP should start his own tour, the ASTP...
The Association of Skillet Tennis Professionals

This new tour would consist of players who were coached as juniors by certified teaching pros from the USPSTA (United States Professional Skillet Tennis Association) and PSTR (Professional Skillet Tennis Registry)...
 
Maximagq said:
I would like to try playing with a frying pan one day. I wonder what is the highest level player I could beat with a frying pan?
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You beat a 65 year old guy lately, now try to pickup another 65 year old guy to beat?! What a brave soul to admire:???: How about pickup the lowest ranking ucla varsity single player to show off your model serve? Anyone like to see that video? I certainly do.
 
oserver said:
You beat a 65 year old guy lately, now try to pickup another 65 year old guy to beat?! What a brave soul to admire:???: How about pickup the lowest ranking ucla varsity single player to show off your model serve? Anyone like to see that video? I certainly do.
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I can beat Nishanth Yamani and Travis Martin. I have no idea how Yamani got on the team. Travis makes sense since he's Billy's son.
 
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saigonbond 2.0 said:
Wow, just wow. I don't think the OP even needs to use a racquet with that technique. Maybe he should try this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eolRfWXRZ60

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i92rtcbWqcM
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Now I really think I made a good decision to start this thread, if not for the tips and instruction, the entertainment part is going to catch up with the 20 year old kid vs 65 year old tennis grand par match up thread. Maybe TT should have a tennis circus forum here so we can all go there.
 
oserver said:
Now I really think I made a good decision to start this thread, if not for the tips and instruction, the entertainment part is going to catch up with the 20 year old kid vs 65 year old tennis grand par match up thread. Maybe TT should have a tennis circus forum here so we can all go there.
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You're the biggest clown.
 
Topspin Shot said:
You're the biggest clown.
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Haha, is this a thank you note:confused:. Noticed your stroke analysis reply, a lot better than last time (remember I gave you a thump up when you told us the main difference between a serve and forehand is that one is overhead and another is underhand.) But if the picture of my conti grip serve you posted was "having a blatant waiter's tray", won'd you be afraid the soup on the tray slipping to the side, spoiling your tennis cap down to your pants and shoes?
 
I just ate dinner with the girl I always snapchat. I was doing the waiter tray thing when I got her some dishes.
 
Maximagq said:
I can beat Nishanth Yamani and Travis Martin. I have no idea how Yamani got on the team. Travis makes sense since he's Billy's son.
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One time with third set super-tie or beat them consistently by big margin? The LeeD match was not impressive at all.

Will be interesting to see a video of you beating LA varsity guys and convincing the coach that you are legit at the league you should belong. I started USTA tennis play as 2.5 in 2007 at age of 58; you maybe many years senior than me in tennis age. In my league of 4.0s, I won more than I lost in recent two years, single or double, playing 18+ and 40+ leagues, not 55+ or 65+ leagues. I spent not even a penny on private lessons (people pay me for lessons through). God knows how much your parents spent to get you to this level. So be modest, it's good for you.
 
oserver said:
Haha, is this a thank you note:confused:. Noticed your stroke analysis reply, a lot better than last time (remember I gave you a thump up when you told us the main difference between a serve and forehand is that one is overhead and another is underhand.) But if the picture of my conti grip serve you posted was "having a blatant waiter's tray", won'd you be afraid the soup on the tray slipping to the side, spoiling your tennis cap down to your pants and shoes?
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Lol. Waiter's tray means your strings are pointed upward too much before contact. You should know this if you're a coach. And seriously, you have no business coaching. Lying about certification and you can't even hit a real serve. You're conning your students Gary Lou.
 
When there's a rotational move, the speed of contact is correlated to how much rotation there is. The more you rotate, the more speed you can build up to contact. That's why going up on edge and pronation is important. From your clips and stills, you argue you do go up on edge and pronate. So for this aspect of the serve, you see the importance of maximum possible rotation. The same idea should apply to your open shoulder stance. The more you rotate your shoulders, the greater the speed build up at contact. You can't differentiate the speed benefit of a closed shoulder serve to your open shoulder serve. Try an open shoulder forehand vs a closed shoulder forehand. Does the extra shoulder rotation add speed to a forehand?

Regarding your serving up on edge. I grab stills from your first 3 serves of your serve from the back.

oNxvmP1.jpg


R8Y0gWm.jpg


F2FSekG.jpg


I took 2nd picture of your 2nd serve ...

6b4GWFL.jpg


Your ball is toss to the left and your racquet will have a left lean. The red line is the racquet path to the ball. If your racquet is coming up on edge, your purple point A(furthest right point) should be at red point A and purple point B(furthest left point) should be at red point B. The black line is perpendicular to the red line. It represents a completely open racquet face. Your racquet face at that point is around 25 degrees from a completely open face.
 
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