Open Tennis Serve

oserver said:
So you know someone taught this type of wrist extension serves? Can you point some videos or lectures. I'm ok to take a backseat in this heated debate.
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He was exactly like you but with the two hander. Though his two hander did not have as much flair as your serve.
 
Here is another Federer's forehand super slow motion videos. In this video, Federer's wrist were either changed to neutral state after the ball was well gone, or never go to neutral state at all (see the shot at 1:18). In contrast, his serve wrist were all hit at or very close to the neutral state.

Forehand

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he-50mhUt0Y Serve

So the debate can focus on this single point: can we use his forehand model for serves? If not, why not?
 
heninfan99 said:
He was exactly like you but with the two hander. Though his two hander did not have as much flair as your serve.
Click to expand...

We have been talking about apples (serves), now you like us to focus on oranges (two handed backhand), do you? It seems you like another guy who couldn't focus.
 
oserver said:
Here is another Federer's forehand super slow motion videos. In this video, Federer's wrist were either changed to neutral state after the ball was well gone, or never go to neutral state at all (see the shot at 1:18). In contrast, his serve wrist were all hit at or very close to the neutral state.

Forehand

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he-50mhUt0Y Serve

So the debate can focus on this single point: can we use his forehand model for serves? If not, why not?
Click to expand...

Attila_the_gorilla said:
I feel filthy for commenting on an obvious troll concept "wrist extension serve"...
But how the hell can you have a vertical racket while your wrist is extended? That would mean that your arm would have to be reaching forward, severely lowering your contact point and adding underspin to the shot, which is the last thing you want.
This is what happens when you try to take a forehand technique and apply it to the serve.

I get it, you can't serve. So you come up with your own unique methods to try to compensate.
But don't act like your idiocy is something others should follow.
Click to expand...

Attila_the_gorilla said:
That's exactly what I'm talking about. You're obsessed with Federer's forehand, but when hitting a forehand with an extended wrist, your arm must be reaching forward, to make sure the racket head faces the target. If your arm is reaching forward, let's say at a 45 degree angle, that decreases your reach considerably. Translating this to the serve, using an extended wrist on contact would require you to be reaching forward at about 45 degrees to hold the racket upright, instead of a vertical arm. That would mean effectively losing about 20 cm or more from your contact height.
The second major issue is that reaching forward that much on contact would require you to hit downwards on the ball, making any topspin impossible. Underspin serving is beginner serving.
Click to expand...
 
jm1980 said:
Genius. I wonder why Fed himself doesn't do it. :rolleyes:
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That's the million dollar question to be answered. Don't count on mine. I'm only a 4.0. A 4.0 answer won't do you any good, but just be patient, eventually some heavy weighted players will answer it.

"why Fed himself doesn't do it"? Maybe because his coaches won't allow him to deviate from the standard. Maybe he is too good at the conventional serve forms and techniques. When you are the best at something, what's the incentive to change? Changing is a risky business, isn't it?
 
BlueB said:
Have you asked Fed? Sounds like he'll be most competent to answer...
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Federer will listen to a 6.5 coach, not a 4.0 coach. So why bother? Like I said before, sport forms (and techniques) change very slowly. The closed stance/closed grip serve lasted more than 100 years know. If the wrist extension tennis serve has the future, it will take years to be known and to be adapted slowly. This forum has international readers all over the world. I choose here to spread my word in a no hurry mode. You guys help me think deeper and improve. For that, I'll take some hash words as the old saying: no pain, no gain.

The best of all, it is free. In the good old days, it may take a world champion to change a sport form. Will the internet age change this so a little guy like me can have some impact on the tennis evolution, hard to speculate!
 
Attila_the_gorilla said:
That's exactly what I'm talking about. You're obsessed with Federer's forehand, but when hitting a forehand with an extended wrist, your arm must be reaching forward, to make sure the racket head faces the target. If your arm is reaching forward, let's say at a 45 degree angle, that decreases your reach considerably. Translating this to the serve, using an extended wrist on contact would require you to be reaching forward at about 45 degrees to hold the racket upright, instead of a vertical arm. That would mean effectively losing about 20 cm or more from your contact height.
The second major issue is that reaching forward that much on contact would require you to hit downwards on the ball, making any topspin impossible. Underspin serving is beginner serving.
Click to expand...

"That would mean effectively losing about 20 cm or more from your contact height." Where did you measure the 20 cm lower contact point? which video of my at what frame? A pure fabrication, I have to say.

"If your arm is reaching forward, let's say at a 45 degree angle", same thing, which video of my at what frame? Another pure fabrication.
 
oserver said:
Federer will listen to a 6.5 coach, not a 4.0 coach. So why bother? Like I said before, sport forms (and techniques) change very slowly. The closed stance/closed grip serve lasted more than 100 years know. If the wrist extension tennis serve has the future, it will take years to be known and to be adapted slowly. This forum has international readers all over the world. I choose here to spread my word in a no hurry mode. You guys help me think deeper and improve. For that, I'll take some hash words as the old saying: no pain, no gain.

The best of all, it is free. In the good old days, it may take a world champion to change a sport form. Will the internet age change this so a little guy like me can have some impact on the tennis evolution, hard to speculate!
Click to expand...

Are you working as a coach ?
 
treblings said:
Are you working as a coach ?
Click to expand...

I used to coach regularly, but just occasionally now. I play almost everyday, sometimes twice a day, including play singles. I have other interests to pursue. Coaching is on my backseat now, unless some one, some place have a interest in my wrist extension serve. I still need more time to get deeper into this wrist extension serve techniques. Maybe I should try to find a researcher to do a biomechanical study on this.
 
I'm stuck with my classic serve (can serve flat, slice, kick) and want to learn your wrist extension serve. Can you show me some progressions?
 
oserver said:
I used to coach regularly, but just occasionally now. I play almost everyday, sometimes twice a day, including play singles. I have other interests to pursue. Coaching is on my backseat now, unless some one, some place have a interest in my wrist extension serve. I still need more time to get deeper into this wrist extension serve techniques. Maybe I should try to find a researcher to do a biomechanical study on this.
Click to expand...

i was interested whether you actually teach your concept and what the results and reactions where.
 
oserver said:
"That would mean effectively losing about 20 cm or more from your contact height." Where did you measure the 20 cm lower contact point? which video of my at what frame? A pure fabrication, I have to say.

"If your arm is reaching forward, let's say at a 45 degree angle", same thing, which video of my at what frame? Another pure fabrication.
Click to expand...

Well you need to make up your mind, whether your wrist is extended or not. When I extend my wrist, it effortlessly comes back to an angle about 45 degrees. Maybe you're not so flexible?

If your wrist is extended about 45 degrees from neutral, then it logically follows that your arms needs to be held forward at around the same angle is you want to have a vertical racket face. Logic is not your strong suit of course.

Now, assuming this 45 degree forward reach, your hand comes lower, in my case it's actually closer to 30 cm loss of height. But you may have shorter arms (mine are not very long either in fact), so I gave you a generous 20 cm estimate.

There is no other way to serve with an extended wrist.
 
Attila_the_gorilla said:
You'd seriously hope not.
Click to expand...

i believe that it´s perfectly fine to work on things, like his WET serve. as long as he doesn´t do any harm in the real world that is.

as a certified coach, even if it´s a basic certification, i think it is your duty to teach good established technique.
and not use your players as guinea pigs. but apparently he doesn´t do that.
 
Attila_the_gorilla said:
Well you need to make up your mind, whether your wrist is extended or not. When I extend my wrist, it effortlessly comes back to an angle about 45 degrees. Maybe you're not so flexible?

If your wrist is extended about 45 degrees from neutral, then it logically follows that your arms needs to be held forward at around the same angle is you want to have a vertical racket face. Logic is not your strong suit of course.

Now, assuming this 45 degree forward reach, your hand comes lower, in my case it's actually closer to 30 cm loss of height. But you may have shorter arms (mine are not very long either in fact), so I gave you a generous 20 cm estimate.

There is no other way to serve with an extended wrist.
Click to expand...
Wait, that's too logical ;) You have to focus here... FoSTec is the future.
 
BlueB said:
Oops, busted!
You guys are just jealous of how many revolutionary concepts came from the OP.
Click to expand...

Haha, absolutely agree! At lease I have not been repeating something others have repeated a million times. Good or bad, right or wrong, there is a element of originality there. Who knows? It's not as revolutionary as the way you put, but I'm patiently waiting for a final judgement; maybe in 5 years.
 
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treblings said:
i believe that it´s perfectly fine to work on things, like his WET serve. as long as he doesn´t do any harm in the real world that is.

as a certified coach, even if it´s a basic certification, i think it is your duty to teach good established technique.
and not use your players as guinea pigs. but apparently he doesn´t do that.
Click to expand...

"as long as he doesn't do any harm in the real world that is."? You are over estimated me. Do you think the current dominating serve forms and techniques are friendly to the public? I don't think so. Just look around, how many players you know have tennis elbow problem? Volley and serve maybe are the two outstanding shots that cause tennis elbow. For serve, the flex your wrist and pronation maybe two major causes. I had been troubled by tennis elbow for very long time. Not anymore since using the Wrist Extension Serves. I don't even need to put the vibration dampener on the string bed. The passive arm and very loose grip solved my elbow problem.
 
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Nobody in the history of the universe has ever had tennis elbow from serving with proper technique. Maybe golfer's elbow, potentially. That can also be had from Roger's forehand technique.
 
meltphace 6 said:
I'm stuck with my classic serve (can serve flat, slice, kick) and want to learn your wrist extension serve. Can you show me some progressions?
Click to expand...

If you are serious about WETS, I can explain this model in more detail. But first, this is against all the formal teaching model for serve. You need to understand the differences between the WETR and current dominate serve forms and techniques -

WETS----------------------------------Conventional
Passive arm---------------------------proactive arm
Body leading arm/hand-------------Body leading arm/hand at beginning, then arm/hand takes the lead
Minimize wrist flexing--------------maximize the wrist flexing
Wrist at extension side-------------wrist at neutral or close to neutral at contact point
Very loose wrist in swinging-------Cannot be very loose because the wrist flexing
Flexible in stance & grip------------Strict in stance & grip
Pronation not as important--------Pronation very important

Your can use whatever stance or grip you like. I use open stance and semi-western grip. At first, I used eastern forehand grip too. Since the technique is following the forehand technique, so open stance and open grip are preferred.

You can start without a racket. Throw a few balls across the net high and far just like your normal serve motion. Notice how is your arm doing, most likely, you try to swing your arm fast while your body's dominate motion is a cartwheel. Now throw a few balls, but this time, try to make your arm more passive, let your body leading your shoulder/arm/hand all the way. Feel the difference of these two throw motions and disregard which way has better result. Also, you can try to reduce the cartwheel motion somewhat and increase somersault motion.

If you can feel the differences about these two throwing motions, you are on the right track. If not, you need to do more. You can take notice that the first method can get you tied pretty quickly, but not the second method.

I'll stop here today.
 
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WETR ---------------- Conventional

Can't add topspin --------- Topspin is a vital component of every serve

Low contact point --------- High contact point

Low racket head speed all the time -------- Explosive racket head speed potential

Straight arm through the whole swing, meaning your swing comes from the shoulder ------- Efficient use of a kinetic chain, using your arm like a loose whip

As he models it from Federer's forehand, I assume he uses a straight arm?
 
oserver said:
"as long as he doesn't do any harm in the real world that is."? You are over estimated me. Do you think the current dominating serve forms and techniques are friendly to the public? I don't think so. Just look around, how many players you know have tennis elbow problem? Volley and serve maybe are the two outstanding shots that cause tennis elbow. For serve, the flex your wrist and pronation maybe two major causes. I had been troubled by tennis elbow for very long time. Not anymore since using the Wrist Extension Serves. I don't even need to put the vibrating dumper on the string bed. The passive arm and very loose grip solved my elbow problem.
Click to expand...
Vibrating dumper. Classic.
 
oserver said:
If you are serious about WETR, I can explain this model in more detail. But first, this is against all the formal teaching model for serve. You need to understand the differences between the WETR and current dominate serve forms and techniques -

WETR----------------------------------Conventional
Passive arm---------------------------proactive arm
Body leading arm/hand-------------Body leading arm/hand at beginning, then arm/hand takes the lead
Minimize wrist flexing--------------maximize the wrist flexing
Wrist at extension side-------------wrist at neutral or close to neutral at contact point
Very loose wrist in swinging-------Cannot be very loose because the wrist flexing
Flexible in stance & grip------------Strict in stance & grip
Pronation not as important--------Pronation very important

Your can use whatever stance or grip you like. I use open stance and semi-western grip. At first, I used eastern forehand grip too. Since the technique is following the forehand technique, so open stance and open grip are preferred.

You can start without a racket. Throw a few balls across the net high and far just like your normal serve motion. Notice how is your arm doing, most likely, you try to swing your arm fast while your body's dominate motion is a cartwheel. Now throw a few balls, but this time, try to make your arm more passive, let your body leading your shoulder/arm/hand all the way. Feel the difference of these two throw motions and disregard which way has better result. Also, you can try to reduce the cartwheel motion somewhat and increase somersault motion.

If you can feel the differences about these two throwing motions, you are on the right track. If not, you need to do more. You can take notice that the first method can get you tied pretty quickly, but not the second method.

I'll stop here today.
Click to expand...
How about

WETR: Predominantly used by beginners
Conventional: Used by virtually every good player
 
oserver said:
Here is another Federer's forehand super slow motion videos. In this video, Federer's wrist were either changed to neutral state after the ball was well gone, or never go to neutral state at all (see the shot at 1:18). In contrast, his serve wrist were all hit at or very close to the neutral state.

Forehand

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he-50mhUt0Y Serve

So the debate can focus on this single point: can we use his forehand model for serves? If not, why not?
Click to expand...
Topspin Shot said:
Vibrating dumper. Classic.
Click to expand...
lmao
 
After thorough testing, I have determined that the open stance serve is too difficult to master for me.

Actual play testing (maybe in a tiebreak) may be necessary to fully shut this case down.


But seriously, I would not recommend anyone try this. Opening up the grip and your stance will lead to heavy pressure on your serving elbow if you're launching your entire body upwards off your right food while snapping down.
 
FightMeAtTheNet said:
After thorough testing, I have determined that the open stance serve is too difficult to master for me.

Actual play testing (maybe in a tiebreak) may be necessary to fully shut this case down.


But seriously, I would not recommend anyone try this. Opening up the grip and your stance will lead to heavy pressure on your serving elbow if you're launching your entire body upwards off your right food while snapping down.
Click to expand...
Myth debunked. Oserve very sad and mad at you.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 
FightMeAtTheNet said:
After thorough testing, I have determined that the open stance serve is too difficult to master for me.

Actual play testing (maybe in a tiebreak) may be necessary to fully shut this case down.


But seriously, I would not recommend anyone try this. Opening up the grip and your stance will lead to heavy pressure on your serving elbow if you're launching your entire body upwards off your right food while snapping down.
Click to expand...

On the second half of your serves, it looks like your were either trying to do reverse side spin serves (swing to your left), or trying to serve the forehand way with a low to high swing motion instead high (contact point) to low (follow through) motion. You need to watch my video a few times and compare to yours to see the differences. On the other hand, your have the flexibility and athleticism to do it the right way.

 
oserver said:
On the second half of your serves, it looks like your were either trying to do reverse side spin serves (swing to your left), or trying to serve the forehand way with a low to high swing motion instead high (contact point) to low (follow through) motion. You need to watch my video a few times and compare to yours to see the differences. On the other hand, your have the flexibility and athleticism to do it the right way.

Click to expand...
Let me get this straight. You're criticizing someone for doing open stance serves incorrectly. When you can't do a real serve correctly.

2e01ee9d1ad2b81a2fd43a575d974c069ae18a509067eb33222dfe9e143ced0e.jpg
 
oserver said:
On the second half of your serves, it looks like your were either trying to do reverse side spin serves (swing to your left), or trying to serve the forehand way with a low to high swing motion instead high (contact point) to low (follow through) motion.
Click to expand...
Ok, finally we've got this in his own writing, the OP serves high to low... Thus, it is impossible to put top spin on that serve.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
 
BlueB said:
Ok, finally we've got this in his own writing, the OP serves high to low... Thus, it is impossible to put top spin on that serve.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

From contact point, if your motion is still low to high, that will be a kick serve (mostly the second serves). For the first serves, it will be a high to low motion from the contact point. Get it? Don't try to grasp a straw if your are drowning.
 
Topspin Shot said:
Let me get this straight. You're criticizing someone for doing open stance serves incorrectly. When you can't do a real serve correctly.

2e01ee9d1ad2b81a2fd43a575d974c069ae18a509067eb33222dfe9e143ced0e.jpg
Click to expand...

"open stance serves incorrectly", sounds like you know the correct way. Care for a demo to us, or point some youTube videos?
 
oserver said:
From contact point, if your motion is still low to high, that will be a kick serve (mostly the second serves). For the first serves, it will be a high to low motion from the contact point. Get it? Don't try to grasp a straw if your are drowning.
Click to expand...
It's actually you who is drowning, for long time now, but with your previous post, you dropped the straw too. Now that you told us you hit the ball high to low, you confirmed that you can't put any top spin on the serve. We've seen that in your videos already, but now you confirmed in writing. Sorry, no way back...

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
 
BlueB said:
It's actually you who is drowning, for long time now, but with your previous post, you dropped the straw too. Now that you told us you hit the ball high to low, you confirmed that you can't put any top spin on the serve. We've seen that in your videos already, but now you confirmed in writing. Sorry, no way back...

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Yeah i have been saying that from post one and oserver has been ducking that point- no topspin and when i asked him repeatedly if he hits up or down on the ball he never answered. Refused to do so. And now as you point out, he did.
 
Shroud said:
Yeah i have been saying that from post one and oserver has been ducking that point- no topspin and when i asked him repeatedly if he hits up or down on the ball he never answered. Refused to do so. And now as you point out, he did.
Click to expand...

Sadly this thread has gone the way of the PoMo. At least the PoMo remained entertaining.
 
FightMeAtTheNet said:
After thorough testing, I have determined that the open stance serve is too difficult to master for me.

Actual play testing (maybe in a tiebreak) may be necessary to fully shut this case down.


But seriously, I would not recommend anyone try this. Opening up the grip and your stance will lead to heavy pressure on your serving elbow if you're launching your entire body upwards off your right food while snapping down.
Click to expand...
To be fair, you probably have an ingrained "normal continental/ebh grip serve", always hard to break a old "habit" :P
I'll go on a limb saying, that the efh grip serve must be hit below a certain racquet head speed :P kinda like training wheels on a bike... not recommended above certain speeds.

Slightly serious question to folks teaching... if a beginner comes to you and says, i want to learn a serve, which requires a minimal investment in time,... what do you teach them?
I'm torn between:
* underhand/sidespin serve (which is pretty effective even at the low 4.5 level)
* eastern fh grip - which allows a bit more spin than the western/frying pan serve - which IMO is effective, especially when placed consistently to the bh wing, up to the 4.0 level

The continental/ebh grip serve clearly has advantages if you want to get past a certain serving level (say 4.0), but for me, anway, has required ALOT of investment in time & practice.

Thoughts?

PS. I would only recommend the 360 spin if i didn't like the student... and i would definitely film :P
PPS. I lol, everytime I see the trashiest idea threads, always get the most attention (1344 comments and rising!)... kinda like junk food, or junk tv... it's like comforting to make myself feel better that someone knows less than me about <fill in topic>
 
nytennisaddict said:
To be fair, you probably have an ingrained "normal continental/ebh grip serve", always hard to break a old "habit" :p
I'll go on a limb saying, that the efh grip serve must be hit below a certain racquet head speed :p kinda like training wheels on a bike... not recommended above certain speeds.

Slightly serious question to folks teaching... if a beginner comes to you and says, i want to learn a serve, which requires a minimal investment in time,... what do you teach them?
I'm torn between:
* underhand/sidespin serve (which is pretty effective even at the low 4.5 level)
* eastern fh grip - which allows a bit more spin than the western/frying pan serve - which IMO is effective, especially when placed consistently to the bh wing, up to the 4.0 level

The continental/ebh grip serve clearly has advantages if you want to get past a certain serving level (say 4.0), but for me, anway, has required ALOT of investment in time & practice.

Thoughts?

PS. I would only recommend the 360 spin if i didn't like the student... and i would definitely film :p
PPS. I lol, everytime I see the trashiest idea threads, always get the most attention (1344 comments and rising!)... kinda like junk food, or junk tv... it's like comforting to make myself feel better that someone knows less than me about <fill in topic>
Click to expand...

Depends on the situation I suppose. If they have no plans on improving and just want to have results as quickly as possible, I would say the underhand serve.

If they just want something serviceable for now, but want to improve in the future, the eastern fh grip. The underhand serve is completely different and wouldn't transition into proper technique as well as the eastern fh grip. In theory, the service motion with an eastern fh grip shouldn't be too much different than a continental grip. Transitioning from an underhand serve to overhand serve would be like learning a completely new shot.
 
nytennisaddict said:
To be fair, you probably have an ingrained "normal continental/ebh grip serve", always hard to break a old "habit" :p
I'll go on a limb saying, that the efh grip serve must be hit below a certain racquet head speed :p kinda like training wheels on a bike... not recommended above certain speeds.

Slightly serious question to folks teaching... if a beginner comes to you and says, i want to learn a serve, which requires a minimal investment in time,... what do you teach them?
I'm torn between:
* underhand/sidespin serve (which is pretty effective even at the low 4.5 level)
* eastern fh grip - which allows a bit more spin than the western/frying pan serve - which IMO is effective, especially when placed consistently to the bh wing, up to the 4.0 level

The continental/ebh grip serve clearly has advantages if you want to get past a certain serving level (say 4.0), but for me, anway, has required ALOT of investment in time & practice.

Thoughts?

PS. I would only recommend the 360 spin if i didn't like the student... and i would definitely film :p
PPS. I lol, everytime I see the trashiest idea threads, always get the most attention (1344 comments and rising!)... kinda like junk food, or junk tv... it's like comforting to make myself feel better that someone knows less than me about <fill in topic>
Click to expand...
Eastern forehand grip. Going from semiwestern to conti is hard, eastern to conti isn't. Also I know a computer rated 5.0 who serves with an eastern grip. A 60 year old magician.
 
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