Open Topspin Serve

Curious said:
@oserver , do you ever doubt your views?
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No, I kept improve so far and tennis elbow stopped bothering me anymore. Passive arm also save energy too. So why stop? Everything forehand is behind my practice and also the theory I can rely on.
Everything make sense now since last year. I realized just open the stance and grip are not enough. The wrist needs to open and the arm needs to be passive. That time everything came together and a symmetry got the last missing part - 3O serve (my way) against 3C (conventional way) in serve, 3O (my way) sync 3O (modern forehand) between serve and forehand.

You know it is the forehand mainly made the modern tennis modern, then the backhand, not the serve, or serve is the last one on the list. Modern serve is still so traditional form wise. Do you agree?
 
oserver said:
No, I kept improve so far and tennis elbow stopped bothering me anymore. Passive arm also save energy too. So why stop? Everything forehand is behind my practice and also the theory I can rely on.
Everything make sense now since last year. I realized just open the stance and grip are not enough. The wrist needs to open and the arm needs to be passive. That time everything came together and a symmetry got the last missing part - 3O serve (my way) against 3C (conventional way) in serve, 3O (my way) sync 3O (modern forehand) between serve and forehand.

You know it is the forehand mainly made the modern tennis modern, then the backhand, not the serve, or serve is the last one on the list. Modern serve is still so traditional form wise. Do you agree?
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You can serve however you like, the question is, is it optimal?

Now although you could say some people just cant do a traditional serve well so they should make do with a sub optimal technique.

But you could say that about any technique. You could serve underarm for those that struggle serving overarm. Im sure your first serve % will go up massively serving underarm.

The problem with the open stance serve is it lacks power.
 
oserver said:
Hope anyone did see some good stroke analysis from you? I certainly didn't so far. 360 serve need higher level of tennis intelligence, I'll wait till you are ready;).
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it's hard to eval a 360 serve,... without seeing a (recent) 360 serve. i'm sure rogerroger, myself, docholidae, etc... will be willing to do a full eval of your 360 serve
if i recall from the last vid... contact was excellent, your eyes were up and on contact, i think you needed to point your toes more, keep your form tight for a faster spin, and land in in pliè...
 
OP, I like your courage.
However, for the name, I suggest you consider something other than 3O, which sounds like 3.0.
 
nytennisaddict said:
it's hard to eval a 360 serve,... without seeing a (recent) 360 serve. i'm sure rogerroger, myself, docholidae, etc... will be willing to do a full eval of your 360 serve
if i recall from the last vid... contact was excellent, your eyes were up and on contact, i think you needed to point your toes more, keep your form tight for a faster spin, and land in in pliè...
Click to expand...
Ballet toe shoes can help too.
 
Rubens said:
OP, I like your courage.
However, for the name, I suggest you consider something other than 3O, which sounds like 3.0.
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I like you humor too but it's not the time to change the name before my legs runs out to reach the 3.0 level. You need a lot of patient for the name change. Meanwhile, the 6O can get here sooner, that is 3O for forehand and 3O for serve. Pretty symmetric, isn't it?
 
Rubens said:
OP, I like your courage.
However, for the name, I suggest you consider something other than 3O, which sounds like 3.0.
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3 stands for 360.
O stands for "omg that's an amazing serve."
he's a high 4.0, and from what i see, a few more rpm's on his 360 motion, and he'll be at the 5.0 level in no time (presuming he can get away from his 360 tour)
 
nytennisaddict said:
3 stands for 360.
O stands for "omg that's an amazing serve."
he's a high 4.0, and from what i see, a few more rpm's on his 360 motion, and he'll be at the 5.0 level in no time (presuming he can get away from his 360 tour)
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3 stands for 3O, 6 stands for 6O (double 3O, one for forehand, one for serve). 0 stands all Open. This is my new definition of 360.

Thanks for your accurate assessment of my level:).
 
One of the issues regarding doing something new and "broadening your mind" with the open stance forehand serve, and likening it with the Fosbury flop, is that its not new. Its been tried before:


And its tried today across the world. The open stance forehand serve is in fact how a beginner tries to serve for the first time. Using a continental grip to serve is not self evident as the way to grip a racket for an overhead hit. As a result people instinctively hold a forehand grip to serve.

If this achieved the best serves then a beginner would already have the best technique possible. There wouldnt be much training needed at all as a "new technique".
 
I fear for OP's sanity. I thought he was just trolling but im starting to believe more and more that he is actually serious.
 
FiReFTW said:
I fear for OP's sanity. I thought he was just trolling but im starting to believe more and more that he is actually serious.
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He gave up on using proper technique and decided to stick with a beginner's serve. That's fine, it's his game so he can do whatever he wants

What I have a problem with is him trying to convince other players that this is acceptable technique.

Any sucker who listens to him will have to spend time reconstructing their serve
 
@oserver , as also the above post mentions I am wondering if this is the only way you can serve and you're trying to sell it as if it's something unique. Can you show us that you can actually serve like any other nonbeginner reasonable person ie closed stance, conti grip, no waiter tray, proper racket drop and throwing? I have a feeling that you can't.
 
Curious said:
@oserver , as also the above post mentions I am wondering if this is the only way you can serve and you're trying to sell it as if it's something unique. Can you show us that you can actually serve like any other nonbeginner reasonable person ie closed stance, conti grip, no waiter tray, proper racket drop and throwing? I have a feeling that you can't.
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You can watch the following video (I posted before). The beginning part shows conventional serves using pin-point stance and continental grip (pronation too) -


Just remember that they are 4.0 serves so you don't get disappointed:D.
 
a12345 said:
One of the issues regarding doing something new and "broadening your mind" with the open stance forehand serve, and likening it with the Fosbury flop, is that its not new. Its been tried before:


And its tried today across the world. The open stance forehand serve is in fact how a beginner tries to serve for the first time. Using a continental grip to serve is not self evident as the way to grip a racket for an overhead hit. As a result people instinctively hold a forehand grip to serve.

If this achieved the best serves then a beginner would already have the best technique possible. There wouldnt be much training needed at all as a "new technique".
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Great techniques - standing shots with straight legs, hit the ball at the height of forehead, and lot's of underhand serves. Very entertaining, especially the way you showed about your stroke analysis skills.
 
oserver said:
You can watch the following video (I posted before). The beginning part shows conventional serves using pin-point stance and continental grip (pronation too) -


Just remember that they are 4.0 serves so you don't get disappointed:D.
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I don't think OP is trolling. No troll would bother writing a paper on a "new discovery". It takes too much time and effort!

But I'd say he is going the wrong way. It's like learning to ride a bicycle and before the technique is acquired properly, he "discovers" that running is actually faster. So he decides to try a "new" method, i.e. revert to running and claims that riding bicycle will never be faster than running. Unfortunately, it's only because he hasn't reach the potential level of bicycle riding.

Based on the above video, although he has used pinpoint stance and pronation, his action is far from appropriate. Hence he can't take advantage of the potential benefit of the traditional 3C technique. By reverting to the elementary 3O technique, which is easier to use, he sees improvement in serving. And he draws the conclusion that 3O is better than 3C. Sorry, OP, you are WRONG! If you bother to learn 3C properly, I guarantee you that your server will be more consistent, powerful and less injury prone. If you are really open-minded, please try to explain why so many people don't agree with you. Is it because all of us are stupid or is it that you are just stubborn?
 
oserver said:
You can watch the following video (I posted before). The beginning part shows conventional serves using pin-point stance and continental grip (pronation too) -


Just remember that they are 4.0 serves so you don't get disappointed:D.
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All the serves are terrible. Even the first few you claim are 3c are done wrong. The 3o is just as bad.
 
OP is a good player despite his trolling/stubbornness about his 3O serve. However, I also remember the 360 serve video where one time his opponent just killed the serve. OP made sure he didn't do his pirouette the next time around. OP maybe dumb, but he's not stupid.
 
rkw said:
I don't think OP is trolling. No troll would bother writing a paper on a "new discovery". It takes too much time and effort!

But I'd say he is going the wrong way. It's like learning to ride a bicycle and before the technique is acquired properly, he "discovers" that running is actually faster. So he decides to try a "new" method, i.e. revert to running and claims that riding bicycle will never be faster than running. Unfortunately, it's only because he hasn't reach the potential level of bicycle riding.

Based on the above video, although he has used pinpoint stance and pronation, his action is far from appropriate. Hence he can't take advantage of the potential benefit of the traditional 3C technique. By reverting to the elementary 3O technique, which is easier to use, he sees improvement in serving. And he draws the conclusion that 3O is better than 3C. Sorry, OP, you are WRONG! If you bother to learn 3C properly, I guarantee you that your server will be more consistent, powerful and less injury prone. If you are really open-minded, please try to explain why so many people don't agree with you. Is it because all of us are stupid or is it that you are just stubborn?
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Thanks for your reply. Regarding the 3O better than 3C assessment, it's based on my improvement, my old serves and new serves. I didn't say everyone will serve better using 3O. If I can produce 10% pace wise, an elite player maybe able to do 15%, that will be huge. Second, I'm not the optimal guy for the 3O advertising for being a 4.0 player. If 3O serve is a product/service of a for profit company, there will be a model player chosen to be the spoke man/woman. For me, better or not is not that important. Providing an alternative is more important. It's going to be very boring for the 3C serve for another one hundred years. Just imagine that we are still hit 3C forehand still and go on for another hundred years. My stubbornness is based on my improvement plus the forehand's 3C to 3O historical facts.
 
FiReFTW said:
I fear for OP's sanity. I thought he was just trolling but im starting to believe more and more that he is actually serious.
Click to expand...

Of course I'm serious. Just count how many papers I wrote on open tennis topic over a span of more than 4 years. The tennis forehand is serious business. The forehand serve or forehand topspin serve have to be serious as counter parts of the modern forehand. You can try to use the 3O style to shoot an overhead shot directly to the opposite fence to feel the power. Once you feel the power, hear the sound, have a sense longer ball stay on the string bed, you'll start to believe what I said. It can be an amazing feeling. I still remember the first time I did this. I didn't try to land the ball in, instead, I want to see what will happen if I use a passive arm and letting the wrist stay close to extension state when contacting the ball. The ball fly almost horizontally to the opposite fence. I feel the heaviness of the ball. You don't have this feeling when you serve using an active arm and rapid flexing of the wrist.

Again, nothing is new. All is in the forehand, successfully used, tested, verified by many elite players, and appraise by you guys and me. You just need to refresh your mind, believing whatever worked for forehand, will work for serve. Just thank God to make our joints - the wrist, the elbow and the shoulder so flexible. A dog can stand up but I don't think its front leg can rotate like a human arm.
 
oserver said:
Thanks for your reply. Regarding the 3O better than 3C assessment, it's based on my improvement, my old serves and new serves. I didn't say everyone will serve better using 3O. If I can produce 10% pace wise, an elite player maybe able to do 15%, that will be huge. Second, I'm not the optimal guy for the 3O advertising for being a 4.0 player. If 3O serve is a product/service of a for profit company, there will be a model player chosen to be the spoke man/woman. For me, better or not is not that important. Providing an alternative is more important. It's going to be very boring for the 3C serve for another one hundred years. Just imagine that we are still hit 3C forehand still and go on for another hundred years. My stubbornness is based on my improvement plus the forehand's 3C to 3O historical facts.
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The reason you go from an open stance forehand grip to a sideways continental grip is it produces more power, its not that a forehand grip on the serve is not possible.

If you watch any baseball player, cricketer, golfer, javelin thrower they go side on in order to generate the maximum amount of power. Its not the arm that produces the power.

Can you hit a golf ball in open stance? Yes you can. Golfers do it when theyre in the sand or on a steep hill. Can you drive it 300 yards from open stance? No you cant.

So the question is can you hit 120mph serves from an open stance forehand grip. If you can, show it, and then youre on to something.

Or lets be generous can you get a normal player to easily hit a 100mph serve in open stance.

Measure the speed of your serve. Because if youre serving at 70mph its a waste of time. If your improvement is you can get up to 80mph, well why not just use a continental grip and serve at 100mph?
 
It's an interesting concept. It's like walking very very fast, instead of running. Is there a limit to how fast we can walk?

So far, the fastest walk recorded was something like a mile in 5:30 minutes. But records are made to be broken!
 
OS, your conventional serve is way wrong. No shoulder hip separation angle to speak of. "Nipples to the net" (tm by ttps) form at racket launch into ball, and overall extreme bad technique.

See comparison. Berdych pinpoint , fed platform, oserver hot mess of a serve.
dd32cffc4098d13c9bfb3f2de66acdce.jpg
fb35e2c1d3a543ab8f5ed13c93a47d3a.jpg
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rogerroger917 said:
OS, your conventional serve is way wrong. No shoulder hip separation angle to speak of. "Nipples to the net" (tm by ttps) form at racket launch into ball, and overall extreme bad technique.

See comparison. Berdych pinpoint , fed platform, oserver hot mess of a serve.
dd32cffc4098d13c9bfb3f2de66acdce.jpg
fb35e2c1d3a543ab8f5ed13c93a47d3a.jpg
0a11cc09c3762a872afd448e1ca1d5e9.jpg
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My serves are 4.0 wrong, or 4.0 right, not 7.0. You certainly prefer the former. Where are your serve videos and photos? Can you show your 5.0 right serves, or better, 5.5 ones?
 
Rubens said:
It's an interesting concept. It's like walking very very fast, instead of running. Is there a limit to how fast we can walk?

So far, the fastest walk recorded was something like a mile in 5:30 minutes. But records are made to be broken!
Click to expand...
Good analogy. But if you ask me, I would say I'm running on the fast lane and is getting results. If you compare my older serve videos, you will know.
 
Keendog said:
At least it's entertaining! I would've loved to see Brad Gilberts face when @oserver talked to him about his ideas.
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Talking to great coaches gave me more confidences in pursuing my open tennis serve, forehand serve project. The huge negativity here also tells me something along the line.
 
oserver said:
First, it's an alternative. Second, it is the present and the future for me, not necessarily the future for everyone.
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I thought your papers and musings on here made the claim your 3O method is superior to the current methods? For everyone. Now you claim it's better only for yourself?
 
oserver said:
Made a video this evening to focus on topspin serves.

A long time held teaching dogmas have three big must do things -

A. one has to use continental grip
B. and a closed stance (either pin-point stance or platform stance), plus
C. an active arm and quick flexing of the wrist and elbow to make good topspin serves.

This video is to prove the above must do things are just myths. One can use open grip (Eastern forehand or semi-western grip) and open stance to make topspin serve just as effective as the conventional topspin serves. I'm also using passive arm to serve too, no deliberate pronation.

Racket used: Federer's old Ncode 90 model.


Welcome your critiques.
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YAAAAAAAAAAAS! This guy's back! And this time, bringingn EXTRA CRAZY with him!

This is gonna be fun (rubbs hands).
 
oserver said:
My serves are 4.0 wrong, or 4.0 right, not 7.0. You certainly prefer the former. Where are your serve videos and photos? Can you show your 5.0 right serves, or better, 5.5 ones?
Click to expand...

To be honest @oserver I watched your videos from 4 years ago and your serve with continental grip and semi-open stance seemed like your best one by far, including your full-360-open-passive-flexion-wristy thing you are doing today. Not sure why you went away from it, you seemed to have a pretty fluent serve.

Not sure why it's so important to you to make everyone aware of what you think, you've made your point, you like it and are sticking with it, so why keep spamming us? It's been 4 years now.
 
oserver said:
Made a video this evening to focus on topspin serves.

A long time held teaching dogmas have three big must do things -

A. one has to use continental grip
B. and a closed stance (either pin-point stance or platform stance), plus
C. an active arm and quick flexing of the wrist and elbow to make good topspin serves.

This video is to prove the above must do things are just myths. One can use open grip (Eastern forehand or semi-western grip) and open stance to make topspin serve just as effective as the conventional topspin serves. I'm also using passive arm to serve too, no deliberate pronation.

Racket used: Federer's old Ncode 90 model.


Welcome your critiques.
Click to expand...

Okay, amigo! After careful analysis of your video and ground-breaking new theories on the topspin serve, I've come to the following conclusions:

1. You shoud not wear a sleeveless shirt, you too old for that Sh¡t, frankly it doesnt suit you, makes you look weird (er), plus you're very skinny and pale.

2. Concerning the last bit of post 1, get some sun man, its good for you, and after it you wont look like office paper any more. Ladies like it too, so, might even get noticed! (just dont bring up TENNIS cause youre gonna screw it up fo sho!)

3. Get a haircut. Its so long now that it looks like youre wearing a motorcycle helmet!
 
If one cannot argue the subject, the worst way to argue is changing the subject. Show your confidence, amigo.
 
Keendog said:
To be honest @oserver I watched your videos from 4 years ago and your serve with continental grip and semi-open stance seemed like your best one by far, including your full-360-open-passive-flexion-wristy thing you are doing today. Not sure why you went away from it, you seemed to have a pretty fluent serve.

Not sure why it's so important to you to make everyone aware of what you think, you've made your point, you like it and are sticking with it, so why keep spamming us? It's been 4 years now.
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Do you think my tennis bodies don’t know how good my serves are now and then? Or my coaching certificate is worthless?
 
J011yroger said:
I'm fairly confident that I could win in 4.5 throwing the ball with my left hand for a serve.

J
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Jolly wins the thread. You can win with a below average level serve. While this is true at the pro level - its even easier for amateurs. OP has a 3.0 or 3.5 serve and that's good enough to beat 4.0s if the rest of your game is better then average.

Serve most dominant at the pro level. There seems to be some reaction speed kinda thing - where it gets hard for even the best athlete to track and handle hard serves that are placed.. This means that when any of the male pros are "on' with their serve they can hold pretty easy. But at low levels you see guys get 'broken' all the time - even if their serve is stronger then their opponent. An 85 mph serve is often more effective then a slow one - but its not so quick joe sixpack can't get a racquet on it..
 
There are a few myths there in tennis serves. Continental grip is perhaps the big one. Two other big ones are closed stance (either pin-point or platform), and pronation. These must do things are dogmas followed so strictly for so long. Now the dam is start to break slowly.

With the changes emerge, the myths of so called beginner stances (open stances) and beginner grips (open grips) have been also exposed. These "beginner" labeling caused "forced" correction by coaching community need to be changed too. Alternative teaching methods need to be established, so the only way can become multiple ways. This is inevitable.
 
oserver said:
There are a few myths there in tennis serves. Continental grip is perhaps the big one. Two other big ones are closed stance (either pin-point or platform), and pronation. These must do things are dogmas followed so strictly for so long. Now the dam is start to break slowly.

With the changes emerge, the myths of so called beginner stances (open stances) and beginner grips (open grips) have been also exposed. These "beginner" labeling caused "forced" correction by coaching community need to be changed too. Alternative teaching methods need to be established, so the only way can become multiple ways. This is inevitable.
Click to expand...

I don't think the dogma was that you cannot serve with a non-Continental grip, an open stance, or no pronation. They are simply the factors that go into a lower-level serve; Continental, particular stances, and pronation are the factors that go into a higher-level serve. If you can find someone that serves like you do at a high level, I might pay attention. Since I'm not aware of any, you are the only example. If I want to emulate someone, I'll choose the higher-level player because A) they're better servers than I; and B) the bio-mechanics agree with what my understanding of them is.

Neither is true for you.
 
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