Yeah I'm not sure how anyone could seriously argue a team should be punished because its players are playing at sectionals.
Opposing team has 7 players. (USTA)
- Thread starter justinmadison
- Start date
Yeah I'm not sure how anyone could seriously argue a team should be punished because its players are playing at sectionals.
In junior hockey here in Canada, and NCAA hockey in the US, December/early January sees a number of players culled from their teams for the World Under 20 championships. Teams affected don't get to reschedule games. They have other players on the roster for this reason, along with injuries and other reasons a player might have to miss a game.
The question was posed earlier, but from what I could tell, never addressed: there is a roster of players beyond the minimum needed for a match. Just because a couple are at another tournament, why should the other team have to reschedule? Put one of the other guys in. Amazing that the other team should have to make accommodations because this team has enough players, but doesn't have the ones they want. If the players are unable to make matches due to other tennis, aren't they possibly overcommitting themselves? All of these things may be something or another, but what they aren't is the other team's problem.
It's common sense. You're punishing a team for making it into postseason play.
No sports league in the world does that.
OrangePower
Legend
You are completely avoiding saying *why* you think a couple of players being at sectionals is more worthy of a reschedule than the same couple of players being unavailable for any other reason. And again, we are talking about the scenario where there are 2-3 players unavailable out of a roster of 20. Good grief.
OrangePower
Legend
Yup, he never did answer this question... it's not conducive to his nonsensical point of view.
What?!? You mean in your league the same team can be in regular season play and postseason play at the same time? Surely you jest. If not, please provide a link to a team page that would illustrate this.
Since I know that is not possible, I assume you mean that one team is in regular season, another team for a different league in postseason, and there are some shared players. That is completely different. If those shared players are not available for team A because they are playing for team B in postseason, then it's no different from them being unavailable because they are playing for another team C in some other regular season, or they are on vacation, or anything else.
If you are going to ask for a reschedule every time your top 2 players are not available but you have plenty of others available then that is just sad.
Who said they would ask for a reschedule every time their top two players were unavailable?
The lack of logic in these discussions is frustrating.
There is nothing that needs to be said. It's common sense to everyone that believes in playing fairly.
kylebarendrick
Professional
I guess we have different definitions of playing fairly then. We all have lives. There are family commitments, business commitments, injuries, vacations, and yes other tennis teams. For those reasons, not everyone is available for each match. Captains need to have enough players on their roster to make sure they can field a team each week. My experience is in Norcal where there is no special dispensation for players that are on multiple teams: it is their responsibility to manage their schedules. My job as a captain is to field a full team during the scheduled match time each week. If I can't do that, I'll reach out to the other captain and try to figure out options. Everyone deserves a chance to play even if it reduced my team's chances of winning a match.
If another captain can't field a full team, I will always try to work out a solution. My guys don't want to accept a forfeit - they want to play tennis. However, I don't have the time to work out reschedules because the other captain can't field his strongest team. Sorry, it happens to all of us. Play with what you have an enjoy a beer afterwards. That is fairness.
If another captain can't field a full team, I will always try to work out a solution. My guys don't want to accept a forfeit - they want to play tennis. However, I don't have the time to work out reschedules because the other captain can't field his strongest team. Sorry, it happens to all of us. Play with what you have an enjoy a beer afterwards. That is fairness.
OrangePower
Legend
You did. You specifically opined that a team having it's top 2-3 players participating in sectionals for another team should be accommodated with a reschedule.
Own up to your opinions.
OrangePower
Legend
Your notion of playing fairly is that the other team should accommodate you with a reschedule whenever your 2-3 ringers are not available but the other 18 players are.
Luckily most people have a different sense of fair play than you.
This is exactly what's covered in the Middle States sectional rules I linked above. If a team is missing at least 4 players due to playoffs in another league with shared players, then the affected team can request a reschedule, under the following conditions:
1. There has to be at least 4 players affected, not 2 or 3
2. Only those players' courts may be rescheduled
3. Those players must actually play on the rescheduled courts
4. The conflict must be a Middle States district or sectional championship or a Middle States team participating in nationals (i.e. if the conflict is with a team in Eastern with shared players, too bad...).
5. The captain must give at least 6 days written notice by email.
It's not so bad when the section lays out the rules beforehand so everyone knows what to expect. With no written rules, you get chaos like you arguing incessantly with a troll about it.
This forum is the first time I've ever heard of someone trying to take advantage of a team missing players at sectional.
It's sad you would rather try to pick up a cheap win than play someone heads up.
Are you intentionally being daft?
We both know being unavailable because of sectionals is different than just being unavailable.
Fortunately, reasonable people understand that being unavailable because of sectionals is different than a family or business commitment.
Literally no sport punishes a player for playing in the postseason like you guys are suggesting.
OrangePower
Legend
Yeah, you'd think I'd know better by now, eh?
Well, the rules make a clear distinction between "tennis" and "everything else" so there isnt any issue of "priority" when there is a forcing condition. The last criterion allows captains to freely reschedule matches IF they both agree to it.
What this basically means is that "sanctioned tennis" is always an excuse, but "family" and "otherwise" are not. "Family" and "otherwise" could be an excuse, but that's up to the captain.
The "6 day email" also dosent appear to be mandatory; it's just "suggested".
So, the question is...
If they dont give me 6 days written notice, then on the day of the match they claim half their roster is unavailable due to "playoffs", can they force a reschedule? I think the rules should be cleared up to resemble something like this:
"If players are unavailable due to 'officially sanctioned events', captains must exchange lineups 48 hours prior to request a reschedule."
This would make it so that no ones time is wasted and no one BS'es about players being unavailable.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
It makes it very easy on us when you make such sweeping, blanket statements because we only have to find one exception to disprove you.
In this case [and I'm sure people can chime in with other sports], it's volleyball. There could be a regularly scheduled league where the captain might have to forfeit because so many of his players are at a tournament that he can't field a minimum team [roster limit is 12 for a 6 person team]. In this case, there is no rescheduling, no leniency for the reason why you can't field a team. Forfeit.
You could say this is unfair to the forfeiting team. Fine. No one's going to listen to you. This is reality and everyone accepts it.
As to sectionals being different from another commitment, yes, they are not identical. However, I don't believe the former should get preferential treatment over other commitments. I can see why the USTA does it: because they're biased towards their own activities. I think people should plan ahead and fill their roster accordingly. That's reasonable in my book.
So where was your exception you found?
An optional tournament is not analogous to sectionals.
I certainly don't mind adding on your caveats that the team with players at sectionals must give the other team fair notice.
But that's not really what is being discussed. The other guys are literally arguing they should be able to force the other team to forfeit or play with a weakened lineup.
Because the "weakened" lineup comes from the team's players playing "playoffs" for another league. By definition you can't be in playoffs if there are regular season matches being played. So we're back to Team A wanting their cake and eating it to. Why should team B have to rearrange things because team A's best players aren't available due to another league's playoffs? Team A has other players, and it is their business to be aware of the fact their best players may be unavailable due to other leagues. That is not Team Bs problem.
Frankly, if a player plays multiple leagues, a conflict there is on them, and should be treated the same as if they sprained an ankle. The match gets played with another player in his place.
It's one usta league. It's multiple seasons within that league.
It shouldn't be treated the same as a sprained ankle. Don't play usta tennis if you're unable to be reasonable.
In Middle States, it's multiple leagues. There is only one season for adult leagues here. For example, the mixed 40 & Over sectionals were this past weekend, as well as regularly scheduled 18 & Over and 40 & Over league matches. If one of the 40 & Over adult teams were missing at least 4 players playing in the mixed sectionals, they could invoke this rule.
It's obvious why the section (and probably others) carves out this exception - participation (i.e. money...). If a player thinks that signing up for mixed may negatively impact their adult league team, they may not play mixed, so the USTA has rules in place that basically say that if there's a conflict between the mixed playoffs and the league season, we'll make sure we accommodate that, so go ahead and give us your money for mixed and don't worry about it.
Directly from the USTA:
"USTA League, the country’s largest recreational tennis league, has more than 330,000 players nationwide competing in match play, meeting new people and enjoying the camaraderie of teammates in one of four national divisions (Adult, Senior, Super Senior and Mixed Doubles)."
Everything falls under the umbrella of one league. That's why it's different than any of be examples the other posters are posting in this thread.
We've ran into this the past couple of years with State and Sectionals with our 40+ team. Our 18+ team is made up of 95% of the same roster. As soon as the schedule comes out for 18+ it's up to me to contact the other captain because it's always the first match of the Summer season (for State). They say two weeks in advance, but sometimes the schedules aren't out. USTA wants us to try and schedule the matches early if possible but that is sometimes hard to do. So the rule is to treat it like an inclement weather match and we have two weeks to make it up. Also anyone that plays after the scheduled match date must have gone and played at State/Sectionals for them to be eligible for the make up match. I've ran into a few issues with other captains. They feel like they shouldn't have to oblige but USTA quickly tells them that they have no choice. If we can play any of the matches on the scheduled date we do, but there is so much overlap that sometimes we haven't been able to play more than one.
-You cannot force a reschedule for a regular season game if a player is playing multiple leagues/levels at once.
-You cannot force a reschedule for a playoff game if a player is in multiple playoffs at once.
-The only time you can force a reschedule if is a playoff game overlaps a regular season game.
NTRP is used across all leagues, but not all leagues affect NTRP.
I wouldnt say that it all falls under "one league" because it clearly dosent, at least sometimes.
No one is asking for rescheduling for regular season matches...
It's a clear exception because a team is traveling to a sectional or district playoff.
No. It's an exception because of a time conflict, which doesnt necessarily mean "travel". If you have a playoff match at 9am on courts 11-20, you can still have a 9am regular season match on courts 1-10 that needs to be rescheduled even though you're at the same facility if leagues are overlapping. Even regular season matches can overlap, even if neither team is in the playoffs.
If "all leagues fall under the same umbrella" then, you'd be able to force reschedules for regular season matches and playoffs if there is a conflict. Clearly you cant do that. All leagues do not fall under the same USTA umbrella. There is only one condition where a reschedule can be forced: A playoff overlaps a regular season match.
I've never once heard of a facility hosting a sectional tournament and hosting regular season matches that same day.
Can you provide me an example of this occurrence?
I actually just played districts at my home facility. You know what happened? The entire local area was given the week off from mixed matches for the event.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
It's not 100% analogous but close enough for me.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Bluefan: I think it would be more accurate if Startzel wrote "Don't play usta tennis if you're unable to be reasonable according to my definition of reasonable."
What I do in that situation and what some of my fellow captain's do is to just go find an extra player that isnt on the team. That way we dont have to tell the other captain we are defaulting to tip our hand before the fact, because we have brought someone for their player(s) to play.
Obviously we still default that position, since we have a ineligible player there though, but they cant argue that they drove all the way out somewhere for nothing.
Defaults suck though anyway, I have been lucky enough that out of 215 matches captained, we've only had to default a line 4 times. (which still seems like way too many) (it's more then the amount of times my teams have been swept which is only 1)
winchestervatennis
Hall of Fame
Nice use of the () (). Jesus Christ use English not afterthoughts
