Osaka splits from coach

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
What has "women" got to do with it? Because you make it sound like women should be treated differently.

Imagine if in those above videos they were being done towards women and not men. And im talking about the exact same treatment by the coaches, you know for sure people would start saying , its abusive, its mean, its misogynistic, its being disrespectful to women, its mansplaining etc... And yet its the same treatment they would give to a male athlete. And thats the problem.

You cant demand "equal treatment" yet on the other hand demand different treatment. You have to pick an option, treated the same or treated differently?

The point is its pretty normal to get shouted out or be criticised by coaches in sport - the best do it a lot to get the best out of athletes. The most important factor is results.

Its not always required, everyone has their own method but if its working, its working, The results speak for themselves.
I’ve been doing loads of sports, I have family in pro tennis too.

Being shouted at in that way you are talking about I have not heard about in tennis.
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
I am just sharing my opinion on the matter in a sense that I really don't like to see people not getting credit where credit is due but actually being insulted instead. That is not fair and this is my reaction.

In every video I saw of him talking to her it was very mild and he came across as a down to earth person. She described him as some kind of savage but all I could see is a normal coach to player relationship. I am just saying that she bad mouthed him so much when she should at least have kept her dignity. Okay, you decided to sack him, do so and shut up about it. No, she went above and beyond to prove that she is correct and that he's some kind of argumentative savage monster making her unhappy while everything points to a completely different conclusion.

Basically she made a thing out of it trying to persuade everyone that she's this humble girl suffering at the hands of the evil coach. Now she has to handle the situation that she personally blew out of proportion by talking about it.
Think many in this thread been blowing things out of proportion 8-B
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
"[The most important thing for me is] just to have a positive mindset," Osaka added. "I don't want someone that's in the box saying negative stuff. That would be the worst.

"[I want] someone that's kind of direct, not afraid to say things to my face. I'd rather someone say it directly to me than go around my back. That's one of the biggest things."


She is hinting that he was too afraid to say anything to her face but was going around criticizing her behind her back. That is a sign of poor character.
 
"[The most important thing for me is] just to have a positive mindset," Osaka added. "I don't want someone that's in the box saying negative stuff. That would be the worst.

"[I want] someone that's kind of direct, not afraid to say things to my face. I'd rather someone say it directly to me than go around my back. That's one of the biggest things."


She is hinting that he was too afraid to say anything to her face but was going around criticizing her behind her back. That is a sign of poor character.
Who knows? Maybe he thought she was lazy & told her to her face & then when she didn't change he started saying it to other people in frustration. The only thing we do know which points to her character not being very good is rather than giving him credit for being a coach she barely mentioned him as merely being a hitting partner, fired him & then put a callous best wishes in your future endeavours message on her social media & since then has bad-mouthed him to the media. In response to her bland message telling the world he was gone he heaped praise on her & has kept a dignified silence since.
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
Ah yes-bring out the imaginary feminist term. The point is exactly that-we don't know what went on & she has been dropping vague hints/bad-mouthing him but not going into details. If she doesn't like the glare of the spotlight on her than she is in the wrong business for starters & she is going about things the wrong way. Again you cannot instigate something, use the media to get your version of events across while not saying much of note & then whine when the spotlight is on you.
I don't think Osaka has said or at least volunteered that much. The media is asking and she's answering in a pretty vague way. I don't think she or Bajin especially has been all that negative.

Anyway, imagine if tennis were actually really popular. The circus would be really crazy then.
 

daddy

Legend
Made it that way? She hardly said anything about this. Maybe 2 min of talking or something max? 30 sec?
You have said much more about this than her.

Okay I know a spin doctor when I see one.

It's all over the media, basically she said that everyone is writing and talking about it and giving her the looks about it, she said she was not focused on the match because of it and lost to Mladenovic. I'd say thats certainly not connected to several posts I made in the forum, you ?
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Who knows? Maybe he thought she was lazy & told her to her face & then when she didn't change he started saying it to other people in frustration. The only thing we do know which points to her character not being very good is rather than giving him credit for being a coach she barely mentioned him as merely being a hitting partner, fired him & then put a callous best wishes in your future endeavours message on her social media & since then has bad-mouthed him to the media. In response to her bland message telling the world he was gone he heaped praise on her & has kept a dignified silence since.
Yes, but on the flip side, if he was saying things behind her back, it was actually gracious of her not to mention it and wish him well. So the two actions are not unrelated.
 
My point is plain and simple - there are numerous ways one can coach / be coached and it relates to personality. Some people love it one way while other love it the other way and there is no right or wrong way, there is just successful and not successful way.

How does this relate to the thread topic ? Here is how :

Osaka and Bajin split ways or she sacked him if you want. Sporting reasons do not exist as she just won back to back Grand Slams so we can assume that the results rule out this as a reason for their split. So although we can only assume what happened, we can be fairly certain that it is one of the following :

- Financial reasons ( he asked for a raise and she refused )
- Personal reasons ( they got involved and it went sour )
- Coaching methods ( he was to harsh )

In my honest opinion whatever the reason is, she made a mistake and is to blame or at least partly to blame. If she does not want to pay she is simply wrong as he had a lot to do with the success. If they got involved and let's say he cheated on her or whatever, it was partly her mistake because she allowed personal matters to interfere with non personal. If he was harsh and now she feels like she deserves better treatment, again her mistake as these methods got her here ( my posts were more or less focused on this as the conversation led us there ).

We can only guess what it is but whatever it is she lost the VERY FIRST match she played after firing him so it doesn't look good. And as I said ONLY time will tell but if history teaches us something - it's that you do not change the winning formula while it's working.
You still do not know what happened, and are speculating. I just think that speculation is a poor base for criticism.
 
1. She fired him & then announced it on social media in a cold way.
2. She then bad-mouthed him to the media, although didn't go into specifics as such.
It was not that cold imo, specially considering you/we do not know what happened. Not going into specifics, but describing her experience in a pretty neutral terms might be considered considerate towards Bajin.
Bottom line is she has every right to end her callaboration with him. And people hating and bashing and critizising on the basis of speculation to me says at least as much about their mindset as hers.
 

daddy

Legend
You still do not know what happened, and are speculating. I just think that speculation is a poor base for criticism.

I do agree with you on this one, it is a poor base for criticism indeed. I just know from my personal perspective as a fan that I hate when my team or any individual I root for change something which was working just fine. I remember when Pete changed his clothing I was upset although granted, I was a teenager and that had nothing to do with his performance. In this case I beg to differ.
 
It was not that cold imo, specially considering you/we do not know what happened. Not going into specifics, but describing her experience in a pretty neutral terms might be considered considerate towards Bajin.
Bottom line is she has every right to end her callaboration with him. And people hating and bashing and critizising on the basis of speculation to me says at least as much about their mindset as hers.
Of course she has the right to end their partnership, however people also have the right to discuss it & her not giving the full story will of course lead to endless speculation until she/he/somebody else in the know does. She is a highly successful athlete-she is going to be in the spotlight, she chose to be a tennis player & it comes with the territory, especially if you become a top player. If she can't run with the big girls then don't join the hunt & don't inflame things.
 
Of course she has the right to end their partnership, however people also have the right to discuss it & her not giving the full story will of course lead to endless speculation until she/he/somebody else in the know does. She is a highly successful athlete-she is going to be in the spotlight, she chose to be a tennis player & it comes with the territory, especially if you become a top player. If she can't run with the big girls then don't join the hunt & don't inflame things.
Well you just confirm my view.
 

a12345

Semi-Pro
It was not that cold imo, specially considering you/we do not know what happened. Not going into specifics, but describing her experience in a pretty neutral terms might be considered considerate towards Bajin.
Bottom line is she has every right to end her callaboration with him. And people hating and bashing and critizising on the basis of speculation to me says at least as much about their mindset as hers.
Who saying she doesnt have a right to sack her coach?

She said it herself, shed rather be happy than successful and a lot of people are criticising the decision because it doesnt appear to be a sporting decision based on tennis.

Lets be frank, these tennis players have trained all their lives, day in day out for 18 years to get to where they are, and just as she breaks through to now talk about being more interested in being "happy than successful" after spending just 12 months with him is the wrong focus.

Pretty much everyone in the tennis community has been talking about it (and she said it herself that everyone in tennis is talking about it) because on the face of it it looks a very bad decision.

If we cant speculate on the drama then Tennis is dead as a sport. Speculation is what sport is about. Otherwise all youve got is did you see the game where one girl hit the ball over the net and the other girl hit it back. One girl hit the ball over more times and then the game finished. Well, thats it, speak to you again next week for more exciting discussion.

Fierce rivalries and drama are largely gone these days which hasnt helped the sport at all, attendance and viewing figures and participation is in decline. The average age of ATP viewership is now 61. The average person on the street is not interested in watching tennis anymore. Many people who play tennis dont watch tennis anymore.
 
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Rogfan

Semi-Pro
Compare these 2 videos:



So shes saying hes difficult, argumentative, gets triggered, stresses over simple things, whilst she just likes to chill.

And she kind of throws him under the bus implying he doesnt do anything, despite him getting her from 68 to No.1 in 12 months and 2 grand slams.

Yet that 2nd video pretty much demonstrates that he does way more than she gives him credit for. And im not gonna lie, in that 2nd video she sounds a bit childish.

Overall it comes across as ungrateful. Ive no doubt he probably is argumentative, critical, a stickler for details that to her seems unimportant, maybe like a perfectionist. But thats the type of person who will push you to your limit and get the best out of you. Hes doing it for your benefit.
First time I watched Naomi talk at press con. She was like a early teen talking about her high school crush in the early part of the first video. 2nd video I have to say the vibe is a bit funny between the two. Normally when WTA players ask for on court coaching, their coach would talk and talk and they just stare ahead, sometimes drinking or nodding. But Naomi was whinging a bit like my teen daughter would talk back to me when I give her a lecture. But then her body language is completely different once on court, much more mature. Just my observation
 
Who saying she doesnt have a right to sack her coach?

She said it herself, shed rather be happy than successful and a lot of people are criticising the decision because it doesnt appear to be a sporting decision based on tennis.

Lets be frank, these tennis players have trained all their lives, day in day out for 18 years to get to where they are, and just as she breaks through to now talk about being more interested in being "happy than successful" after spending just 12 months with him is the wrong focus.

Pretty much everyone in the tennis community has been talking about it (and she said it herself that everyone in tennis is talking about it) because on the face of it it looks a very bad decision.

If we cant speculate on the drama then Tennis is dead as a sport. Speculation is what sport is about. Otherwise all youve got is did you see the game where one girl hit the ball over the net and the other girl hit it back. One girl hit the ball over more times and then the game finished. Well, thats it, speak to you again next week for more exciting discussion.

Fierce rivalries and drama are largely gone these days which hasnt helped the sport at all, attendance and viewing figures and participation is in decline. The average age of ATP viewership is now 61. The average person on the street is not interested in watching tennis anymore. Many people who play tennis dont watch tennis anymore.
And you criticizing Osaka certainly helps.
 
Who saying she doesnt have a right to sack her coach?
I think Naomi should have kept him on for at least 1 more year and pay the man. Naomi owed him that at the minimum
Besides, the whole thread is criticism of her ending her collaboration with her coach, based on speculation. But ofcourse "Speculation is what sport is about". Not really. Perhaps to you. Which is sort of what I hinted at in saying that this says more about your and others mindset than Osakas.
 

a12345

Semi-Pro
And you criticizing Osaka certainly helps.
You should see the criticism my football team and its players and the manager gets when they lose or make bad decisions. The posts run into the 1000's after just 1 game.

Tennis wishes it had that kind of interest.

Ill bet Tennis commentators are thinking wow weve got something we can talk about. Alternatively I guess they could talk about other hot topics on this board like

Is Fed Playing Madrid?
Who would you rather overtake Feds record, Novak or Nadal.
Latest Nadal news- what shorts will he be wearing.

I guess we should speculate on that stuff, rather than the girl rising to world number 1, beat Serena , wins back to back slams sacking her coach and losing her first game after. Nothing to see here I guess.

Perhaps we should move on to other topics - can I ask what shorts do you think Nadal will be wearing in the next tournament??
 
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Of course she has the right to end their partnership, however people also have the right to discuss it & her not giving the full story will of course lead to endless speculation until she/he/somebody else in the know does. She is a highly successful athlete-she is going to be in the spotlight, she chose to be a tennis player & it comes with the territory, especially if you become a top player. If she can't run with the big girls then don't join the hunt & don't inflame things.
She's just being candid and expressing that she doesn't like attention.
 
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Alba Barragan

Semi-Pro
People in this forum love to exaggerate. Isn't there a whole thread dedicated to players who win a tournament and then lose their next match? This defeat isn't out of the ordinary. The fact that she just changed her coach justifies this result even more. The bashing against her is so unnecessary.
 

Alba Barragan

Semi-Pro
Preferring to be happy to be successful may not be the most competitive approach to a sport, but it's also important to remember that these players are not only athletes, they're also human beings. They're dedicating their entire lives to this, so they need to have a good balance between pushing themselves to be the best and have a peaceful and happy enough life to be able to sleep at night for the next decade or so in order to be the best version of themselves. Putting their emotional well-being and the long term of their careers on the line just for current good results isn't healthy. That's what breaks some players and can lead them to burn-outs.

Unlike most people in this thread, I actually applaud Naomi's decision and even find it to be very mature. It takes a lot of time to realize not everything in life is being the very best at one thing. When you're young, you can tend to see some negative situations as "necessary sacrifices" that need to be done in order to be better. Only to realize years later that it was a toxic way of dealing with some stuff that could've been handled differently. This may not be the case for her, but the fact that she's willing to step back to ensure a healthier development for her career speaks volumes of her perspective.
 

a12345

Semi-Pro
Preferring to be happy to be successful may not be the most competitive approach to a sport, but it's also important to remember that these players are not only athletes, they're also human beings. They're dedicating their entire lives to this, so they need to have a good balance between pushing themselves to be the best and have a peaceful and happy enough life to be able to sleep at night for the next decade or so in order to be the best version of themselves. Putting their emotional well-being and the long term of their careers on the line just for current good results isn't healthy. That's what breaks some players and can lead them to burn-outs.

Unlike most people in this thread, I actually applaud Naomi's decision and even find it to be very mature. It takes a lot of time to realize not everything in life is being the very best at one thing. When you're young, you can tend to see some negative situations as "necessary sacrifices" that need to be done in order to be better. Only to realize years later that it was a toxic way of dealing with some stuff that could've been handled differently. This may not be the case for her, but the fact that she's willing to step back to ensure a healthier development for her career speaks volumes of her perspective.
Or, sometimes you have to realise the hard path is the correct path in the long term. The easy comfortable option is not always the best option.

For example if you had a great teacher who gets you top grades but disciplines you and shouts at you for being noisy and not listening, not working hard enough, not concentrating, criticises your work when its poor but you feel is unjustified, you score 90 and they say you need improve and get 100, your reaction might be, youre mean, i dont like you, youre so negative, I want to get rid of you.

Is that the right decision?

If you want to be peaceful and happy, sure get rid of that teacher. If you want to learn, if you want your child to learn, stick with that good teacher. The teacher is not there to be your friend , their job is to train your brain.

If your objective is to be happy you might end up just surrounding yourself with yes men, or take the path of least resistance all the time, and that is a mistake.

For example when youre younger, your parents might have wanted you to learn a 2nd language or learn to play an instrument like a piano, but to do so required extra work and extra sunday classes which you didnt like it, its boring, youd rather play on the playstation, which makes you happier, so you never did it.

When you get older you then realise - ok maybe it would have been nice to know how to play the piano and I should have stuck with it. Maybe it would be nice to know how to speak, French/ Chinese/ Spanish fluently etc...
 
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WELL SAID A12345! A tennis champion's longevity is very limited, they better make the most of their time--kumbaya is not part of the mix except for PR/sponsorship/marketing purposes.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Or, sometimes you have to realise the hard path is the correct path in the long term. The easy comfortable option is not always the best option.

For example if you had a great teacher who gets you top grades but disciplines you and shouts at you for being noisy and not listening, not working hard enough, not concentrating, criticises your work when its poor but you feel is unjustified, you score 90 and they say you need improve and get 100, your reaction might be, youre mean, i dont like you, youre so negative, I want to get rid of you.

Is that the right decision?

If you want to be peaceful and happy, sure get rid of that teacher. If you want to learn, if you want your child to learn, stick with that good teacher. The teacher is not there to be your friend , their job is to train your brain.

If your objective is to be happy you might end up just surrounding yourself with yes men, or take the path of least resistance all the time, and that is a mistake.

For example when youre younger, your parents might have wanted you to learn a 2nd language or learn to play an instrument like a piano, but to do so required extra work and extra sunday classes which you didnt like it, its boring, youd rather play on the playstation, which makes you happier, so you never did it.

When you get older you then realise - ok maybe it would have been nice to know how to play the piano and I should have stuck with it. Maybe it would be nice to know how to speak, French/ Chinese/ Spanish fluently etc...
You type a lot for someone who doesn't have a clue about what really happened. That self-righteous feeling is intoxicating, right?
 

a12345

Semi-Pro
You type a lot for someone who doesn't have a clue about what really happened. That self-righteous feeling is intoxicating, right?
Can you clue us non experts in as to what is happening. I assume you have direct contact and are involved in the situation yourself right? Otherwise your own comments and speculation that you yourself have been making on this matter would be really embarrassing.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Can you clue us non experts in as to what is happening. I assume you have direct contact and are involved in the situation yourself right? Otherwise your own comments and speculation that you yourself have been making on this matter would be really embarrassing.
I don't have a clue. That is why I only state facts and speculations but don't give lectures on this topic.

Does it give you a kick to talk down to people on the Internet who have already achieved more than you ever will?
 

a12345

Semi-Pro
I don't have a clue. That is why I only state facts and speculations but don't give lectures on this topic.

Does it give you a kick to talk down to people on the Internet who have already achieved more than you ever will?
Let the adults in the room have a discussion. Let those that cant stand to hear points and opinions they disgaree with leave the room.
 
I don't have a clue.
a12345, sureshs is the village idiot at the board. --Sureshs can't even get himself "banned". When he cant win on logic he pulls out the "racism" card as his first and last resort--it's guys like him that destroy message boards--I've got the short-cuts to these forums next to the garbage can--ready to save time and aggravation and spend it on my game instead. You're post was well thought out and on the money! Let the chorus and the collective meme say what they will--the truth eventually wins out. You don't need spell check with him around--let's see how long it takes for him to spell check me on you're/yours--he's got a lot of time on his hands--my excuse is I've got the flu/cold, but gonna' try hitting some serves today. Don't let the bastards get you down!
 

gadge

New User
Haha, I'm not disappointed. I agree that in general, coaches add some value otherwise people wouldn't bother to hire coaches. But not every coaching relationship is a beneficial one. Time will tell how much of Osaka's recent success is due to her recently departed coach.

It could also be that Sasha asked for a very big raise and Naomi did not think he deserved it so Sasha left. That would fit the fact pattern bc Naomi's tweet seems distant (maybe she's mad at Sasha for wanting so much more money) and Sasha is thankful (now he can go coach someone else for big money).
Osaka said mentioned it's not about money, it's about something else. She quoted "I'll never put success over happiness", whatever that meant. May be he's pushing her too much to be serena.
 

AM75

Hall of Fame
Kasatkina just split from her coach... how funny would it be if she hired Big Sascha and proceeded to win the next two slams?
Another one who "needs to take control and responsibility for her own tennis, and feels she needed to do this alone". Halep, Osaka, Kasatkina... It's a trend now. I wonder how many tennis players achieved something without a coach?
 

TnsGuru

Professional
Did you ever have a parent, coach, teacher who hardly gave you praise even when you were doing really well? It's just tough love to help that person to get stronger mentally. Some people see it as "he/she hates me" or you can take it as "oh, they are trying to help me to be stronger and I should not take it personally".

I'm not sure if this is the case with Sascha but her personality is too timid for someone like him who probably was being assertive to bring her out of her shell.
 
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achapa8807

Semi-Pro
This is a very interesting thread about the split of Sascha and Miss Osaka. I've waited to chime in for a while.

I think that as a player you are entitled to have your opinion on your coach. After all, the player is the one who is employing their coach. I feel that something must have been brewing over time and then a certain event took place that set Osaka over the edge. It could have even been Osaka who began the riff between the two. I don't know either person nor their stories, but I do know how problems arise and finally come to a climax.

As a coach myself, I know what kind of situations can cause tension between the coach and players. I have another coach who coaches with me, so there are times where they may not agree with us both or just one of us on something. It can be hard to get players to see your perspective, but if you go about it in the right way, it can be achieved and you can gain the player's trust. Building the relationship and setting expectations is crucial, and I feel that somewhere along the "ride" the expectations were not prioritized nor continued to be brought up. The process of her development and the "why" behind the process may not have been addressed as they continued to forge their partnership.

Overall, this all just sucks for both parties, IMHO. On the surface, I thought the partnership was good. Sad day and hope it doesn't cause a downfall for Osaka.
 

mwym

Rookie
Details are irrelevant, sacking coach, losing first matcher after Slam win. The principle in effect is the issue at hand here.

The cost of having such a mature and stable game she displayed at 2 Slams she won is to underachieve by not having a mind mature and stable enough according to age, and that is being displayed as events unfold right now. Talented kids live tennis at a cost of not living a real life. Hence, their level of competence at each. And an emotional maturity below their age is a most common weakness.

Either a person secures a balance by improving weaknesses or weaknesses take over as soon as 'you' start believing in being as good as your best virtue/achievement. No one is. We all are only as good as our lousiest, worst weaknesses.

Her game is above her age. Her 'mind' is below her age. She took off obviously too high too soon, and her mind is now securing her back to balance by pulling her back to the ground, before she falls too hard and 'hurt herself' 'beyond repair'.

She needs to force/push her mind to grow up really fast both in tennis and out of it, or she is done. It takes both a mind and an intellect above most people or players have in order to do it. I hope she has them good enough. If she does, some kind of behind the scenes advice by Djokovic, who seems to have some first hand experience, might set it into motion. Anyone close to her reading this might consider arranging such a contact of the two, hidden from a public eye.

The idea behind this is not to have a WTA Djokovic. However, she might be interested in entertaining it at least for the while ... once and if she gets the hold of this rather simple concept.

Time will tell, it always does.
 
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