oscar borras serve videos

[taurussable]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GljqJv84tTI
shows oscar borras helped improve Nadal's serve a lot in 2010 and helped him won the USO that year. Oscar himself is a famous coach in spain.

found the following serve coaching series from him:
here is part1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH0r8Gj5nZs
looks like some great face to face instructions and drills.

anyone who understands spanish can give some idea what Oscar is talking about in the videos(part1-4)?

 

[crash1929]

Speechless that there have been no replies yet.

Thank you so much for posting these videos.

I saw the first. Most of it is visual. I'll do my best to translate what I can hear when I have time.

THANK YOU!

 

[taurussable]

Thanks crash1929. a few key points you can convey to us should be good enough

 

[shindemac]

Speechless that there have been no replies yet.

Thank you so much for posting these videos.

I saw the first. Most of it is visual. I'll do my best to translate what I can hear when I have time.

THANK YOU!

This has been posted before at least twice. But yeah, good stuff. Really good stuff.

 

[crash1929]

taurussable. Thank you for posting these videos again. Lots I did not know. I've gotta take off to get home to see the FED match so this is the first type up of the 3rd video. I expect there will be edits. No time to re-read. GO FED!

Oscar Borjas Serving Lesson Translation #3

-A first serve can be a slice
-A first serve can be hit a 1pm, which is what we are going to do usually. Hit the ball
on the top right which is 1pm
-And a first serve can be, the most safe of all… from left to right. Hitting the ball on
the left and finishing hitting the ball on the right.

So to summarize he makes each motion at 22 sec:
-There is hitting the ball from the left to right- from low to high
-There is the left to right serve you use when you are not making first serves
-There is the slice that you hit on the outside
-There is the first power serve (hitting at 1pm)
-Then there is the completely flat

The first serve has a lot of variability. Not like the second serve which is slice or topspin (can’t quite make out the second word but assuming he says topspin)

Isner for example hits the left to right first serve as a second serve. It’s a type of serve between a first and second. It’s a powerful serve. That’s why he has such a powerful first serve because he is hitting flat. What should you do? Hit flat so that my serves are fast? Forget it!! If one day you are “on” you can hit flat serves. Fine. But that day how many are you going to get in? Instead- if you are not “on” hit your first serve by hitting the ball at 1pm. If you’re not hitting that one…well then you shift down to hitting the ball at 3pm. If this serve is not even working then you shift down again and hit it from left to right. At least here you are assuring yourself of a certain percentage of first serves….You shouldn’t just play a first serve with your typical second serve! Because they’ll see that and be ready to smash the return. So are you going to keep hitting it hard and flat and not get any in? That is good for nothing.

At 1:47:
Ok start from here in this position with the racquet paused and toss the ball forward. Before our trunk was more twisted. There is “SAMURAI” behind and “SAMURAI” in front. Now we have to have the SAMURAI ball in front. The ball tossed forward in front of the right shoulder. Aim to hit the ball at 1pm, the top right part of the ball. Extend the tip of the racquet out as much as possible and make sure to pull in your tossing arm into the stomach. You launch and let yourself fall forward. Kid says: “How about the grip” Oscar says: “The same- we can’t go changing grips”. The strike is “SAMURAI” meaning out in front. Toss out in front of yourself, not on top of yourself. You hit the ball on the top right or 1pm. “Your hitting strongly and (Not hitting flat?). “Get your arm in to your stomach. You should have tension in your fingers. Your problem is you don’t have your fingers tense when you wind up for a forehand. You need to have tension in your fingers when you hit a forehand. I saw this in your match. In the service when you toss your fingers should be tense as well and at the moment of impact you should have tense fingers, then relax after. [Joking- you can’t be all loose and dead or weak. You need tension.] As he tosses: “Keep those fingers tense”. Ok Solid Very good. Lets move back…

5:20:
Ok serve from the first line, then second, then third. Repeat. You’re not hitting it a 1pm, the top right! That’s why its not going in. Hit the ball on the top right! The top right! We are doing this so the wrist gets used to adjusting for distance. “Oh wow that was 120 mph! Close to it” Now you are going to go back. We need a good acceleration from the wrist. [7:51] If you have the racquet close to your back on the drop you will get more power. But in addition you need acceleration of the wrist at the end. The last step of the serve is the wrist. The last step of serve involves the wrist. The wrists directs, orders, and accelerates. Now serve into the ground and see if you can bounce it into the next court, focusing on accelerating the wrist at the end. “Look you are getting better. The mechanics the acceleration of your wrist after doing 2-6 of these serves into the ground you have improved. Here what we are talking about is power. So you can see how to improve your velocity. Kid: “I’m hitting it down like this” Oscar: “Yes hit it down flat”. “My friend you are hitting it well [Swear words -)]. Hit it at 1pm. Keep practicing. Think pendulum, pause, hit. Magic words. I always repeat them.

12:00:
You have to toss in and jump into the court. We’ll do that later…Today is the first day we cant do everything. Today I want you to focus on the following: Low toss, mechanics, simplicity, tossing arm into the stomach, and hitting the ball at 1pm. Kid: “Sometimes I’m afraid that I will lose the racquet on the take back like I used to” Oscar: “Don’t worry I’m watching. Focus on ‘pendulum, pause, and hit. Get that tossing arm into the stomach. You’re hitting it 120mph.

 

[taurussable]

Thank you crash for your tremendous effort! will study your translation with the video. I want to learn spanish there are a lot of quality tennis instruction videos on youtube to explore.

 

[ForehandReverb]

Thanks for translation. My espanol is bueno but I couldn't catch the details.

I know the Nadal video for some time and I agree, it is a must watch.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Great job crash. But I fear you may have ignited a serve speed debate.

 

[crash1929]

No problem guys. My pleasure. It's the least I can do to give back. Again- first draft.

Translation for #1 is a bit more spotty. Video was harder to hear and a few terms I didn't quite get.

Anyone with more info on what Oscar means by SAMURAI, please chime in.

-----------------------------------

Oscar Borras Service Video Translation #1

-Pause… the wrist rounded
-Don’t let it fall. Now Now Now- Don’t be late in hitting it. Hit it high with maximum extension. Wrist rounded.
-Arm up into to the stomach. Action – Reaction (in audible…) Don’t be late in hitting it, if it starts to fall its hard to lift. It’s easier to hit the ball high at 8 than when its falling….Good…‘round’.
-1:34: Kid- Sometimes I finish here (up high) and then come down. Oscar- “No not up there”. Oscar physically shows him where to stop. The racquet should be a little in front and in the direction of the ball. 2:00- Hit low to high- from the left to right, from 8 to 1. Plus, you're moving forward like this with the arm.
-2:20: You’re more relaxed. Instead of being tense. Hit one right and one left.
-2:30: The wrist motions/directs the racquet close behind the back (racquet drop) Don’t let it be separated (from the back). Close (get the racquet close on
on racquet drop. Oscar: Great! Make photo copies! 2:50 Kid: “Sometimes I hit the ball like this.” Oscar: Yes-If you hit the ball from 8 to 1 you will send the ball more to the backhand. If you come in the other way its to change to the other side. To hit the ball more in the middle (assuming to the forehand).
-3:11- Just the wrist and lift the right leg. Impact, hand, and kick…round..round
Oh very good…
-3:55- Third exercise for the second serve is for the wrist to be relaxed and be able to direct the serve….Bend with the left leg and lift the right as you do this. This will teach you to relax the wrist and aim with your wrist. The important thing is that when you go releasing that you can direct the ball to any area of the court….be able to go left or right…You have to toss the ball well because you are moving.
-5:20: Hand to stomach. Hand to stomach. Inside Inside.. So that the body stays closed. The shoulder always (inaudible).
-5:38: Good… relax the wrist …round…round wrist. Put it to the sky Put it to the sky
-5:53: Kid “Sometimes I finish here (snaps high) instead of here (lower). Oscar: You have to hit and finish here down low. The tip ends lower. Very good. Let’s go.
-6:16: These are exercises to improve topspin. The second serve. (inaudible)
-6:42: Throw the ball back and direct the wrist. Always one leg on the ground and the other leg lifted. When this one comes down the other one goes up.
-8:07: Now we’ll work on a fast drill so you hit it without thinking because tossing the ball too high is one of the things you are doing wrong. 8 balls in 10
seconds. Quickly Quickly with out thinking. Think about your position at the pause- because you drop it. You toss the ball and you are letting it down (the
racquet) you have to have it a little closer. Its hard to do on this fast drill. The intent here is: 1. Not to think, 2. Do it quickly. The reason we do it fast is to correct your high toss- you don’t have time to let it get up high on this fast drill, 3. And then for you to do it with acceleration because you have to do it
in 10 seconds after all.
-9:18 Kid-“ Sometimes I hit it up here when I go fast”
Oscar: Try to do SAMURAI [?]. Do SAMURAI. Oscar keeps saying ‘rounded
wrist’, literally.

 

[crash1929]

Same thing here. First draft just need to get it up. Again anyone with more info on Samurai please chime in.

Oscar Borras Service Video Translation #2

-Service routine. You have to break this down into three parts: 1. Pendulum
2. Pause 3. Impact. It’s three parts. If you say it. Say 3 that will help. It’s
When you exhale. Kid: inaudible. Oscar: When you do SAMURAI,
which we’ll do at the end, really you can throw the ball here inside the
court and you jump in more and you continue doing SAMURAI. That’s
what you have to do. That’s the finish line. Finale. Because that’s more
aggressive, the second, more brave serve.
-2:00: Great job. If you lift the leg more like a kick to me first, better.
-2:15 That happens because you turn too early, you maintain your shoulder
to the side and your arm on your stomach- the leg goes like this (kicks
forward). If you turn- the leg will instinctively go toward the back.
Although with time- you will do it like that. But that’s when your
confident. With time.
-2:49: Lower toss and behind you. One, two, three.. you have some power. Be
relaxed.
-3:11: You’re looking here, down. But you have to be looking to your target.
Then go right to the ball with your eyes. Hit it where you decide to go.
-4:29: When you played the match you didn’t exhale when you made contact
with the ball on your serve. Let the air go on impact. Not after.
You were like David Ferrer- exhaling after contact. That happened to
Jim Courier as well many years ago.
-4:50: I told Pepe Higueras when we were at Roland Garros, Center Court… I
said are you noticing that Jim Courier is exhaling AFTER he hits the
the ball? And the next day he played a tough match. Well when we
got to the hotel one had to tell him. The next day he exhaled (correctly- on contact) and he really played! He played double! You hit the ball with more potency when you exhale. If you don’t you are maintaining all the air in your body. You have to release when you hit.

-5:19: You have to do it like this. And the strings always facing the ground. When you lift the racquet the strings should face the ground (5min 28sec), put it facing like this (toward the ground) not like this (facing more towards the net, 5:29). The string towards the ground and then up to the pause (trophy). Good…Try to keep the elbow close to the body. Kid- “Am I keeping the elbow close?”Oscar: Yes sometimes. But when you get lost a little you revert to old habits, and it moves away from your body. The important thing is that when you are here (racquet drop) that you get the racquet very close to your back. You have always dropped it in a manner separated from your back. It has to be close to the back. 6:15 Kid- “Is the elbow ok here?” Oscar- “That is fine.” Kid move racquet a bit. Oscar says “Not like that”. At 6:21 Oscar says “Its just that sometimes you do it like this (pulls elbow away from the body at trophy) everything is too separated like that. 6:19 Put the ball in your right arm pit to help you get the feeling of keeping your elbow close to your body. When you have the ball behind SAMURAI (?) hit it. Up release. This exercise is to help those who are too separated on the motion.

 

[crash1929]

Oscar Borras Service Lesson Translation Video #4

-What you have to do is get the ball to land here when you toss, inside the court.Now this foot, put it here. This is where you have to land so that every time you jump- open…come together….jump- you land around where this ball is in on the court. Now your are going to lift your leg like this and you are going to end up with your hand on your stomach and the racquet like this. This is an exercise to get the feel of the ‘end’ of the service motion. You’re going to finish ‘planted’.

-0:54: Open, step, jump. You need to jump further inside the court and stay planted when you land with your hand on your stomach. You are not jumping far enough in, again! Jump in about to where the ball is.

-1:53: I believe you will achieve that your best shot will become your serve.

-2:56: The hand stays by your stomach, if you don’t stick it out, you will stay more balanced. More controlled. Land inside and lift your leg (inaudible) like horse kick?
3:23: Kid- Is it normal to loose your balance at the end? Oscar: You need to finish pointed like this as you turn. If you land with your foot pointed straight you will see how your balance improves so you can plant the landing.
4:00: Open, step, jump, hit. You have not jumped far enough. Jump farther into the court. Inaudible.
4:32: Sometimes at the end you don’t finish the motion. The butt cap needs to come around and point this way.

 

[crash1929]

Great job crash. But I fear you may have ignited a serve speed debate.

Just trying to capture what Oscar is saying -). Apparently everyone is tired of debating these issues. -)

There are some things I'm not sure about like the use of the "SAMURAI" term. Technically, not sure about how he says you should keep your elbow in close to your body. I'd recently switched from keeping the elbow in close to the body to taking it away and keeping it high. I did so because I thought that's what I saw Federer doing in video analysis.

 

[taurussable]

placeholder

I've been studying the 4 videos with the translations and got a few questions. will post them up to see if similarly interested folks want to discuss.

 

[crash1929]

taurussable would be interested in hearing your questions....

 

[5263]

Is he teaching a carving serve?

 

[taurussable]

taurussable would be interested in hearing your questions....

Thanks for reminder I am having trouble finding my notes about the 4 videos

Is he teaching a carving serve?

I think he is teaching kick serve.

 

[RetroSpin]

Is he teaching a carving serve?

That was my question as well. It sure looks like it.

 

[crash1929]

Not sure what you guys mean by 'carving'.

He is going over the serve in general.


The topspin serve and the first serve where you hit the ball on the top right (1pm) are two serves he spends a lot of time on.

 

[julian]

Please define "carving serve"

That was my question as well. It sure looks like it.

Please define "a carving serve" either via words or a video.
Thank you

 

[RetroSpin]

I would call a carving serve one in which you try to carve around the side or top of the ball rather than hit it with pronation and ISR. You will finish with your thumb up rather than pointed down at the court. As I recall the student in the video is carving the ball.

 

[julian]

Next question

I would call a carving serve one in which you try to carve around the side or top of the ball rather than hit it with pronation and ISR. You will finish with your thumb up rather than pointed down at the court. As I recall the student in the video is carving the ball.

Which pros do use a serve like this during matches?
It is a serious question

 

[sureshs]

So is it OK to hit serves without pronation?

 

[RetroSpin]

Which pros do use a serve like this during matches?
It is a serious question

I think Sharapova for one. I thnk it's a move you see on the WTA, not the ATP.

 

[marian10]

Murray doesn't over-pronate here, is it it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn7b_UEYPIo

i think i see what it's about, i have a power serve with lots of isr+pronation+snap and one i consider slice-kick without intention to "carve", top-side spin.
It's actually pretty fast and fluid.

 

[SouthboundAgain]

What does Borras mean by "Samurai" ? couldn't find anything on the Internet with a reference to that with regards to a tennis serve.

He says to hit the ball at 1 pm but that doesn't seem very descriptive of the direction (vector) of the racquet at impact.

 

[crash1929]

Southbound, I'm not sure what he means by Samurai either. The first thing that came to mind is coming at the ball with the edge of the racquet- but this is just a guess.


Wrt hitting the ball at 1pm, on the top right that is. I'd never heard of this before and when I do it successfully the ball still goes fast but dips down into the court at the end. How do others see the path and speed of the ball when hitting the ball on the top right?

 

[waves2ya]

this is a little like jeff salzenstein's dirty diaper serve; more complex and i'm not certain about relative pronation here (sword/Samurai)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j34COa_LFKg

thanks for uploading; nice drills...

 

[crash1929]

The thing about the dirty diaper is I can do the drill and it helps me get the feeling of spin, but I am totally confused as to how to implement it on my full regular swing.

 

[taurussable]

video 1

-2:30: The wrist motions/directs the racquet close behind the back (racquet
drop) Don’t let it be separated (from the back). Close (get the racquet close on
on racquet drop. Oscar: Great! Make photo copies!

If I understand this correctly, Oscar is advocating a "back scratch" position instead of letting the racket drop to the side of the body.

not sure why he advocates the racket close behind the back, while there are a lot discussion on this forum that the racket should be dropped at the side of the body


-3:17
what is the purpose of standing near the fence and serve? what's the purpose of a right leg kick like the student demonstrates? he is basically kicking his leg sideways instead of kicking it back. I've read discussions on this forum that the leg should be kicking back instead of sideways.

-9:18 Kid-“ Sometimes I hit it up here when I go fast”Oscar: Try to do SAMURAI
[?]. Do SAMURAI. Oscar keeps saying ‘rounded wrist’, literally.

samurai is a japanese word it has to do with the popular anime in japan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_no_Ōjisama_–_Futari_no_Samurai
i am not exactly sure what oscar means but it has to be related.

just some random googling makes me think it is probably related to a correct posture in the serve. Nishikori has been referred to Samurai many times.
http://10is.wordpress.com/2010/01/22/tennis-nugget-think-of-yourself-as-a-samurai-on-serve/

"rounded wrist" I think oscar meant to keep the wrist flexed so that the racket is not opened up too early.

video 3

Instead- if you are not “on” hit your first serve by hitting the ball at 1pm. If you’re not hitting that one…well then you shift down to hitting the ball at 3pm. If this serve is not even working then you shift down again and hit it from left to right.

I am not sure I get this right. What does he mean by hitting the ball at 1pm and hitting from left to right as a last resort? what kind of serves is he referring to?

At 1:47:
Ok start from here in this position with the racquet paused and toss the ball forward. Before our trunk was more twisted. There is “SAMURAI” behind and “SAMURAI” in front. Now we have to have the SAMURAI ball in front. The ball tossed forward in front of the right shoulder. Aim to hit the ball at 1pm, the top right part of the ball. Extend the tip of the racquet out as much as possible and make sure to pull in your tossing arm into the stomach. You launch and let yourself fall forward. Kid says: “How about the grip” Oscar says: “The same- we can’t go changing grips”. The strike is “SAMURAI” meaning out in front. Toss out in front of yourself, not on top of yourself. You hit the ball on the top right or 1pm. “Your hitting strongly and (Not hitting flat?). “Get your arm in to your stomach. You should have tension in your fingers. Your problem is you don’t have your fingers tense when you wind up for a forehand. You need to have tension in your fingers when you hit a forehand. I saw this in your match. In the service when you toss your fingers should be tense as well and at the moment of impact you should have tense fingers, then relax after. [Joking- you can’t be all loose and dead or weak. You need tension.] As he tosses: “Keep those fingers tense”. Ok Solid Very good. Lets move back…

not sure if he is talking hitting hand fingers or tossing hand fingers or both?

5:20:
Ok serve from the first line, then second, then third. Repeat. You’re not hitting it a 1pm, the top right! That’s why its not going in. Hit the ball on the top right! The top right! We are doing this so the wrist gets used to adjusting for distance. “Oh wow that was 120 mph! Close to it” Now you are going to go back. We need a good acceleration from the wrist. [7:51] If you have the racquet close to your back on the drop you will get more power. But in addition you need acceleration of the wrist at the end. The last step of the serve is the wrist. The last step of serve involves the wrist. The wrists directs, orders, and accelerates. Now serve into the ground and see if you can bounce it into the next court, focusing on accelerating the wrist at the end. “Look you are getting better. The mechanics the acceleration of your wrist after doing 2-6 of these serves into the ground you have improved. Here what we are talking about is power. So you can see how to improve your velocity. Kid: “I’m hitting it down like this” Oscar: “Yes hit it down flat”. “My friend you are hitting it well [Swear words -)]. Hit it at 1pm. Keep practicing. Think pendulum, pause, hit. Magic words. I always repeat them.

He mentions the use of wrist a lot, which i think is very advanced topic and I am not sure if everyone agrees on the role of wrist in the serve

 

[Chotobaka]

So is it OK to hit serves without pronation?

Only if you are least 3-5 feet behind the baseline.

 

[oble]

samurai is a japanese word it has to do with the popular anime in japan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_no_Ōjisama_–_Futari_no_Samurai
i am not exactly sure what oscar means but it has to be related.

just some random googling makes me think it is probably related to a correct posture in the serve. Nishikori has been referred to Samurai many times.
http://10is.wordpress.com/2010/01/22/tennis-nugget-think-of-yourself-as-a-samurai-on-serve/

SMH

Samurai: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurai

Regarding leg kicking to the side: this is generally more common on slice and spin serves where your body rotates less and face slightly sideways instead of facing square at the net at contact. To maintain balance, your right leg will naturally kick sideways vs kicking back for a flat serve where you rotate your body more to face the net.

 

[taurussable]

SMH

Samurai: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurai

Regarding leg kicking to the side: this is generally more common on slice and spin serves where your body rotates less and face slightly sideways instead of facing square at the net at contact. To maintain balance, your right leg will naturally kick sideways vs kicking back for a flat serve where you rotate your body more to face the net.

LOL i know what it means in japanese, i was thinking the anime might be very popular in spain haha

here is the sideway leg kick I was referring too

Not sure why oscar asks him to kick his leg this way in the drill.

The student's leg kick was perfectly normal in a complete serve.

 

[oble]

LOL i know what it means in japanese, i was thinking the anime might be very popular in spain haha

here is the sideway leg kick I was referring too

The student's leg kick was perfectly normal in a complete serve.

Haha! Maybe.. I still can't make the connection between samurai and the service motion though. A samurai's katana is actually designed to be held with both hands for normal slashes.

As for the leg kick drill.. Maybe Oscar just wants the student to exaggerate it to facilitate learning how to keep the body more sideways during spin serves, which in turn facilitates better brushing of the ball with the racquet swing whilst still pronating the forearm.

IME, over-rotating the body during spin serves is what makes it harder to pronate the forearm whilst still generating the appropriate spin, causing rec players to think pronation is not possible for these serves and they need to swing/carve around the ball.

 

[marian10]

mystery solved maybe

1.samurai

like a sheath in your back, you draw the sword (racquet). It's a very cool concept because you get the acceleration, vertical-right sided swing path and continuity of the follow through to the left.

2. behind back vs behind shoulder

I was using the latter until this video. Why come back to a "scratch your back" type (samurai is much better) racquet drop?

It's more scratch your back with a lag that holds the racket drop and sets it behind the shoulder.

More pectoralis stretch, ribcage is much more involved. More deltoid also. And the most interesting when you already have a good serve : you don't destroy your shoulder, even with good form the rotator cuff suffers from ample IR and exagerated pronation.

The burden is better distributed between pecs, shoulder, forearm, wrist. End of the swing is much more relaxed, at least for me.

You may consider this video too. Don't mind teacher's level, his teaching is right on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dbs7snBtkk&feature=youtu.be

 

[crash1929]

1.samurai

like a sheath in your back, you draw the sword (racquet). It's a very cool concept because you get the acceleration, vertical-right sided swing path and continuity of the follow through to the left.

2. behind back vs behind shoulder

I was using the latter until this video. Why come back to a "scratch your back" type (samurai is much better) racquet drop?

It's more scratch your back with a lag that holds the racket drop and sets it behind the shoulder.

More pectoralis stretch, ribcage is much more involved. More deltoid also. And the most interesting when you already have a good serve : you don't destroy your shoulder, even with good form the rotator cuff suffers from ample IR and exagerated pronation.

The burden is better distributed between pecs, shoulder, forearm, wrist. End of the swing is much more relaxed, at least for me.

You may consider this video too. Don't mind teacher's level, his teaching is right on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dbs7snBtkk&feature=youtu.be

Very interesting insight. Did you guess or are you familiar with OB? I think I do more of a behind the shoulder drop than behind the back drop. Heck I saw a video of Serena where her racquet hits her booty! My drop is nowhere near this area (In my mind's eye at least) and feels more out on the right hand side of my body.

When I try to imitate the racquet drop closer to my butt I feel I loose drive though power and my serve becomes like a powder puff. A bit confused by this.

 

[julian]

Grip

1.samurai

like a sheath in your back, you draw the sword (racquet). It's a very cool concept because you get the acceleration, vertical-right sided swing path and continuity of the follow through to the left.

2. behind back vs behind shoulder

I was using the latter until this video. Why come back to a "scratch your back" type (samurai is much better) racquet drop?

It's more scratch your back with a lag that holds the racket drop and sets it behind the shoulder.

More pectoralis stretch, ribcage is much more involved. More deltoid also. And the most interesting when you already have a good serve : you don't destroy your shoulder, even with good form the rotator cuff suffers from ample IR and exagerated pronation.

The burden is better distributed between pecs, shoulder, forearm, wrist. End of the swing is much more relaxed, at least for me.

You may consider this video too. Don't mind teacher's level, his teaching is right on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dbs7snBtkk&feature=youtu.be

"his teaching is right on"?
What about a grip?

 

[marian10]

Very interesting insight. Did you guess or are you familiar with OB? I think I do more of a behind the shoulder drop than behind the back drop. Heck I saw a video of Serena where her racquet hits her booty! My drop is nowhere near this area (In my mind's eye at least) and feels more out on the right hand side of my body.

When I try to imitate the racquet drop closer to my butt I feel I loose drive though power and my serve becomes like a powder puff. A bit confused by this.

just guessed i took me a while because i have back of shoulder racquet drop too + ISR/pronation a la sampras etc...But lately i began to emulate almagro-cilic-raonic serves. I'm serving way faster this way but my shoulder is in pain.
The samurai way cures that for me.

"his teaching is right on"?
What about a grip?

Actually i used to be a teacher and one of the "lesson" that a better coach taught me : "nah let him keep his grip for now, instead you should help correct his rythm".

Depends on the perception channel used but technique shouldn't come in the way too soon

 

[waves2ya]

I just gotta say some of this reminded some what of another Oscar:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wJNX1IA4hQ

At 1:02 - he pops his leg out to the side and would it be so strange these two Spanish guys teaching very similarly...? Also, "hard like a hammer", come with edge - like blade of sword...?

Oscar W. clearly pronates and you cannot generate proper power-line for serve without pronation (except where stroke is a variation and meant not to pronate).

Finally re: back-scratch, please; for nothing would I go back to having racquet toward center of back and not more aligned side of body; throw a football, pull a bow, 'elbow the enemy' -))...

If you are hitting big serves really loose the totality of movement has to be natural, clean/easy and supported by all major muscle groups.

 

[taurussable]

crash, i sent oscar an email but he never got back to me. Maybe your email in Spanish can solicit his explanation on that term

 

[crash1929]

crash, i sent oscar an email but he never got back to me. Maybe your email in Spanish can solicit his explanation on that term

This is the kind of commitment for knowledge I can appreciate. I'll try. Assuming he has a website with an email or something?

Will re-review this thread as well tomorrow.

 

[crash1929]

1.samurai

like a sheath in your back, you draw the sword (racquet). It's a very cool concept because you get the acceleration, vertical-right sided swing path and continuity of the follow through to the left.

2. behind back vs behind shoulder

I was using the latter until this video. Why come back to a "scratch your back" type (samurai is much better) racquet drop?

It's more scratch your back with a lag that holds the racket drop and sets it behind the shoulder.

More pectoralis stretch, ribcage is much more involved. More deltoid also. And the most interesting when you already have a good serve : you don't destroy your shoulder, even with good form the rotator cuff suffers from ample IR and exagerated pronation.

The burden is better distributed between pecs, shoulder, forearm, wrist. End of the swing is much more relaxed, at least for me.

You may consider this video too. Don't mind teacher's level, his teaching is right on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dbs7snBtkk&feature=youtu.be

lol

http://toyhaven.blogspot.com/2013/10/figure-club-16-scale-league-of-shadows.html

 

[crash1929]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXkAK_iFBuQ

regarding the samurai and the racquet drop guessing- this is more what my drop looks like - away from the body. Pause it at 5 seconds.

 

[marian10]

it's not really scratch your back but more "behind the head" into "behind pec & shoulder". This deviation is caused by the tilt of shoulders.

Yep landing stance has the leg a bit more to the right

strings are more towards the ground than to the side fence at pronation

wrist is more deviation than flexion, more rounding than snap

followthrough is more a pendulum from right to left than a U shape one

Be super crefull with the samurai as it could hurt you ninja skills :mrgreen:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IocQ_DZVAU0

 

[marian10]

Served like that yesterday. It's smoother, same speed but my shoulder says thank you.

Pecs are much more involved like a "chest pump"

Btw it's really not scratch your back

 

[julian]

The video quoted below is terrible

1.samurai

like a sheath in your back, you draw the sword (racquet). It's a very cool concept because you get the acceleration, vertical-right sided swing path and continuity of the follow through to the left.

2. behind back vs behind shoulder

I was using the latter until this video. Why come back to a "scratch your back" type (samurai is much better) racquet drop?

It's more scratch your back with a lag that holds the racket drop and sets it behind the shoulder.

More pectoralis stretch, ribcage is much more involved. More deltoid also. And the most interesting when you already have a good serve : you don't destroy your shoulder, even with good form the rotator cuff suffers from ample IR and exagerated pronation.

The burden is better distributed between pecs, shoulder, forearm, wrist. End of the swing is much more relaxed, at least for me.

You may consider this video too. Don't mind teacher's level, his teaching is right on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dbs7snBtkk&feature=youtu.be

It is beyond me that someone can reference the video above
The student is failing and the coach is saying "good".
It shows how bad is a level of advice at this forum.

 

[marian10]

haha, the purpose was only to show an iteration of teaching between two guys/videos.

if you really watch, student has zero head acceleration/snap at the beginning. You're correct his form is not that good, but guess what, he's learning and it's a 10mn lesson :roll:

The student understands what the coach says at his level, and the snap is much better yet not perfect.

beyond me that someone can only reference videos showing pros that no one will be able to copy and bash the validity of anything that isn't perfect.
It shows how bad is a level of advice at this forum.

 

[RetroSpin]

It is beyond me that someone can reference the video above
The student is failing and the coach is saying "good".
It shows how bad is a level of advice at this forum.

I have to agree. I wasn't impressed and it made me question the earlier stuff about him helping Rafa's serve.

 

[julian]

Traps of online coaching

haha, the purpose was only to show an iteration of teaching between two guys/videos.

if you really watch, student has zero head acceleration/snap at the beginning. You're correct his form is not that good, but guess what, he's learning and it's a 10mn lesson :roll:

The student understands what the coach says at his level, and the snap is much better yet not perfect.

beyond me that someone can only reference videos showing pros that no one will be able to copy and bash the validity of anything that isn't perfect.
It shows how bad is a level of advice at this forum.

You are not addressing what I have said in my post.
The coach said "good".
The attempt was a failure.
What is the purpose of the phrase "good"?

Encourage student?
Make a student more happy?
Compare a student to Suresh?
Is a phrase "good" a filler?

As pointed out before the amount of "snap" is limited in the case of a non-continental grip.

 

[marian10]

You are not addressing what I have said in my post.
The coach said "good".
The attempt was a failure.
What is the purpose of the phrase "good"?

Encourage student?
Make a student more happy?
Compare a student to Suresh?
Is a phrase "good" a filler?

you watched the first 5 seconds of the video where he says "good" and :

there you are posting negative comments (not even on topic)

you don't have the context of the "good". Maybe it was 1h lesson and the student keeps making good use of a previous information

and yes sometime when you teach it can happen : encouragement!

@RetroSpin

I think julian doesn't talk about Borras

two different coaches! One is recreational level the other atp level! Maybe you could read the thread

I was intrigued enough to try not take for granted. And i found results for myself but i did on the court not on the internet or in my head.

 

[zmaku27]

regarding video

If you guys want to watch video in English translation or whatever language just press cc or closed caption which is going to activate closed caption in Spanish language and then press settings which is beside and chose option translate closed caption to whichever language you want and voila you can watch video in your preferred language.