You are absolutely right. There is this guy in my group league with a big serve and he hits hard and it looks so good BUT he loses time and time again to players that look much worse than him.To be honest 90% of this board needs to play like this as a fundamental building block to improving, it definitely helped me a lot when I transitioned from "decent but sloppy recreational player" to "men's college team/open tournament player". I see posts about analyzing body parts I've never heard of or thought about before, or people complaining about their strokes getting ruined by bad coaches or entire wings just disappearing and they never ever did their progressions or tried to practice efficiently.
I wish! I played this guy two times before and it didn't work out, 3rd time lucky maybeNo! Hit big or go home!
yes!I will try a new mental approach to beat the pusher. If I make a mini game out of each point and count the number of times the ball passes the net it should keep me motivated to move my feet and don't lose my patience. Anyone tried this?
No! Hit big or go home!
I play some of those style players and they hit big and go home with a loss most of the time. So many rec players have this hit big mind set, it amounts to the ego being much bigger than their game.
Consistent tennis with selective aggressive hitting is the way to go, but too many players want to hit big shots and they are lucky if they are 50% when going for winners. So when you figure the amount of your big shots that your opponent will get back and add in the errors that you make going big it’s pretty much a losing strategy.
That is a good strategy however I want to test him. He will expect me to bring pace that he can feed off and wait for me to try to finish the points. What if I don't give him any pace at all. I want to test his patience and make him go for more than he is used to. He will try drop shots but I will be aware of that and stay close to the baseline.I think that's the pusher's game, and they are going to be better at that then you will be. You're going to have to alter your game, but don't play the pusher's game
A better approach is to just keep hitting deep with spin and when you get a short ball either pound it into the corner (only if you have that shot) or angle it off short - target for this shot is back outside corner of the service box. If they get that ball it will be on the run hitting a ball that is outside the doubles alley and at their feet. Once they pop that up volley it into the open court. You can also hit it short to them and bring them to the net for a pass - most pushers don't like to come to the net.
That is a good strategy however I want to test him. He will expect me to bring pace that he can feed off and wait for me to try to finish the points. What if I don't give him any pace at all. I want to test his patience and make him go for more than he is used to. He will try drop shots but I will be aware of that and stay close to the baseline.
I will try to take him out of his comfort zone by not giving any pace for him to work with. I will give him floating moonballs and test his offensive game.
I get to see a lot more junior tennis than play or see adult tennis. But during our JTT Nationals, the singles player that could sustain a rally the longest generally won. These rallies included rally balls with 3'-5' of net clearance and a lot of topspin. Also a lot of deep lobs to reset the rally. Our singles girl that wins lots of tournaments failed miserably because she kept seeing balls that would sit up and she felt compelled to put it away. But rather, she needed to try to win in 3 more strokes vs 1 more stroke.I think that's the pusher's game, and they are going to be better at that then you will be. You're going to have to alter your game, but don't play the pusher's game
A better approach is to just keep hitting deep with spin and when you get a short ball either pound it into the corner (only if you have that shot) or angle it off short - target for this shot is back outside corner of the service box. If they get that ball it will be on the run hitting a ball that is outside the doubles alley and at their feet. Once they pop that up volley it into the open court. You can also hit it short to them and bring them to the net for a pass - most pushers don't like to come to the net.
I get to see a lot more junior tennis than play or see adult tennis. But during our JTT Nationals, the singles player that could sustain a rally the longest generally won. These rallies included rally balls with 3'-5' of net clearance and a lot of topspin. Also a lot of deep lobs to reset the rally. Our singles girl that wins lots of tournaments failed miserably because she kept seeing balls that would sit up and she felt compelled to put it away. But rather, she needed to try to win in 3 more strokes vs 1 more stroke.
Similar thing with the boys singles. The one that can hit 20+ rally balls, have a good slice, and a good lob generally won. They would draw impatience from their opponents to try to take risks though the balls would keep coming back. These are high level pushers or retrievers or counter punchers. They all have a put away slap shot, but only come out when the conditions are absolutely perfect and it becomes a higher percentage. Basically smart tennis.
As for me? Yeah, I might try that. I've been hitting more aggressively lately and that's had some mixed results... Not hitting aggressively can backfire in doubles. A good defensive shot in singles becomes a T'd up shot in doubles.
I like your attidude. All tennis should also be played on fast grass or carpet. Hard and clay is for pushers.You need to finish the point in 1 shot, everything more than that is pushing! Second serve counts too, so if the opponent can return it, it was hit too weak and is considered pushing.
That's infinitely better than a loser.Outpushing a pusher will just make you a better pusher.
I will try a new mental approach to beat the pusher. If I make a mini game out of each point and count the number of times the ball passes the net it should keep me motivated to move my feet and don't lose my patience. Anyone tried this?
Nooooooo man, you can't play tennis like that, you need to hit big! bigger better harder!
Max power on every single shot, even the drop shot!
This style is as boring as watching paint dry, but it will win a high percentage of matches until you hit the high 4.5 level and higher.I get to see a lot more junior tennis than play or see adult tennis. But during our JTT Nationals, the singles player that could sustain a rally the longest generally won. These rallies included rally balls with 3'-5' of net clearance and a lot of topspin. Also a lot of deep lobs to reset the rally. Our singles girl that wins lots of tournaments failed miserably because she kept seeing balls that would sit up and she felt compelled to put it away. But rather, she needed to try to win in 3 more strokes vs 1 more stroke.
Similar thing with the boys singles. The one that can hit 20+ rally balls, have a good slice, and a good lob generally won. They would draw impatience from their opponents to try to take risks though the balls would keep coming back. These are high level pushers or retrievers or counter punchers. They all have a put away slap shot, but only come out when the conditions are absolutely perfect and it becomes a higher percentage. Basically smart tennis.
Are you kidding me? I actually get pissed on court if the other guy is slappy and goes for too much when he's pressured, that's the mark of sloppy tennis for me. If you were in the Bay Area I'd hit you up all the time, people need to figure out how to remove their ego from their tennis and just think about improving.This style is as boring as watching paint dry, but it will win a high percentage of matches until you hit the high 4.5 level and higher.
Problem is, if you play this way, nobody will want to play with you. In fact, about a month ago, I played a pickup match with a guy that had just moved here from Texas. He said he taught tennis a bit while there (and just generally told me how good he was during warmups). Guy had solid fundamentals for sure. When the match started, I played the way you describe and was winning every game easily. On one of the changeovers, he announced that he was done playing the match and never wanted to play with me again until I learned to hit the ball "properly". He told me I was incapable of sustaining a "proper" baseline rally with any sort of pace and that it just wasn't worth his time to play with someone like me. So I apologized for my poor play (I think I was up 5-0) and left. A few hours later he texted and said that we clearly have a different idea about how the game of tennis should be played and that he just doesn't like playing with guys like me. I didn't respond.
I decided to use this strategy a few weeks ago against a guy that was beating me pretty easily in the spring when I was hitting harder (and making more errors). We played 2 weekends in a row. First time, I went up 4-1 in the first set, noticed he was getting mad, so I started hitting hard. He won the set 6-4 (and he was happy). Second set I won 6-2. Third set I went up 5-2 triple match point on his serve. Started hitting hard. Ended up winning that set in a tiebreak.
Next weekend I won the first set 6-2 and was up 3-0 in the second. He announced on the changeover that he could only play 15 more minutes. So, we stopped after the next game.
I'd rate both these guys 4.5 level (the second guy was in my 4.5 ladder in the spring). So this style works against this level. But it really pisses everybody off. So I don't do it all the time. And I also like to work on my more aggressive style tennis. Even if a "steady diet" of that is losing tennis for certain. It does help me learn how to finish points more quickly. Though most of the time against my 4.5 level opponents, they end up using my pace and aggressiveness against me and I lose more points than I win (but they are happy and want to play again).
What's even funnier is, most guys will play a few points like I'm doing to "show me" how boring and anti-tennis it is. But I know that they will drop a ball short before I do. And when they do, I pounce on it. That REALLY torques them offAre you kidding me? I actually get pissed on court if the other guy is slappy and goes for too much when he's pressured, that's the mark of sloppy tennis for me. If you were in the Bay Area I'd hit you up all the time, people need to figure out how to remove their ego from their tennis and just think about improving.
What's happening is, these 4.5's have good skills. They really do. But they aren't able to use them against this type of play. Then they start making errors. It just frustrates the hell out of them.@r2473
I have to say your experience is rather strange to me. It's 4.5 level and people still complain about "styles" of playing?
My court is rather straight forward. Everyone seems to understand that making mistakes is poor playing, and everyone values consistency.
People only complain when others play too poorly, ie losing too much.
A steady diet of high, deep floaters isn't that easy to play against.
What's happening is, these 4.5's have good skills. They really do. But they aren't able to use them against this type of play. Then they start making errors. It just frustrates the hell out of them.
And it really works just like Bill Tilden says in his book "Spin of the Ball". You can watch them start to mentally lose it. And then at some point, you know they are mentally resigned to losing. Sometimes they don't even try anymore. They just can't wait to leave.
A steady diet of high, deep floaters isn't that easy to play against. Add to that the fact that, I can hit as hard as they can. So I can (and do) take advantage of my opportunities.
I learned this style from a buddy of mine. There a lots of guys that flat out refuse to play him. It's funny watching him make "good" players fall apart and just mentally lose it.
I wouldn't be surprised if at some point I won't be able to take big cuts at the ball and will use all I have left. Grooving ones strokes can lead to a great fun exciting match, but does require more warmup and movement. Some don't want to give up this part of tennis because it is a higher level. Unfortunately the short 10 minute warmup is rarely enough for the less experienced players and having an opponent that doesn't continue with hitting sessions into match leaves both players with same o same old. I have haven't reached the point of refusing to play anybody but it is frustrating due to the extended time to improve my game. On the positive side I have noticed improvement and it's not up to the opponent to play my game but I gotta play mineWhat's even funnier is, most guys will play a few points like I'm doing to "show me" how boring and anti-tennis it is. But I know that they will drop a ball short before I do. And when they do, I pounce on it. That REALLY torques them off
If I'm doing it right, you can't volley it close to the net. It's too high. So you have to be able to volley off a mid-court ball. And if I see you come in, of course I'll adjust. So if you come in too early, I'll give you a different ball. But if you wait too long, you won't be in position to volley the midcourt ball.None of them just come in on one of your floaters and take it as a volley/overhead?
Possibly true. You'll never know until you are faced with it. Until you are feeling a bit of anger. And this anger messes with your strategy and execution (and makes you even angrier).It has to be much more than "A steady diet of high, deep floaters isn't that easy to play against. " since you're talking about 4.5 here.
I do know the mental quitting that you're referring to, but it usually only happens when the loser is completely outplayed at every maneuvers. Meaning, he's being strung around like a puppet to chase so many variety balls but still fail in the end. On other hand nothing he does can break through the other guy.
It's NEVER the loser loses because he cannot handle one or two particular style shot, eg "high, deep floaters" That reeks of low level playing, no offense. This reminds me of a match between a 40ish guy and a 74 man. All the young guy did was "drop shot" on the old man to win! It's stupid but it's 3.0 level.
I'm probably a strong 4.0 on a good day, I have never lost a match due to a couple of consistently played shots. To win, my opponents have to do a lot of things. Example: multiple shot consistency, corner hitting, corner serving, know how to close the net, lob when I'm at the net, on and on. That's how I and my buddy play every Wednesday.
I will try a new mental approach to beat the pusher. If I make a mini game out of each point and count the number of times the ball passes the net it should keep me motivated to move my feet and don't lose my patience. Anyone tried this?
As @r2473 pointed out, the deep, lofty ball that resets the point will wreak havoc on a UTR 7-8 player. But a UTR 10 or 11 player will step forward and take the ball out of the air to cut off the time his appointment has to reset. Also to disrupt the timing. He'll set up for a weaker return that he'll try to put pressure on by hitting a good angle and then the next shot is the put away (usually an OH or volley).None of them just come in on one of your floaters and take it as a volley/overhead?
As @r2473 pointed out, the deep, lofty ball that resets the point will wreak havoc on a UTR 7-8 player. But a UTR 10 or 11 player will step forward and take the ball out of the air to cut off the time his appointment has to reset. Also to disrupt the timing. He'll set up for a weaker return that he'll try to put pressure on by hitting a good angle and then the next shot is the put away (usually an OH or volley).
My son can usually wear down a 4.5 player. But a good 5.0 player cuts his time for reset with taking the ball out of the air and sharper angles.
@Traffic has seen it and understands. It’s one thing to know what to do. It quite another to actually execute it. And UTR 7 and 8 can’t do it. It takes a better player than you think.Yeah, an occasional deep, lofty ball definitely works as a reset all the way up to ATP level.
It's the "steady diet" of floaters that can easily be attacked at 4.5+ because it's easy to anticipate the floater, and then just step forward into the court and hit a volley or overhead.
Federer put away several of these against Anderson today (floaty BH slice), when he could anticipate one coming...
This style is as boring as watching paint dry, but it will win a high percentage of matches until you hit the high 4.5 level and higher.
Problem is, if you play this way, nobody will want to play with you. In fact, about a month ago, I played a pickup match with a guy that had just moved here from Texas. He said he taught tennis a bit while there (and just generally told me how good he was during warmups). Guy had solid fundamentals for sure. When the match started, I played the way you describe and was winning every game easily. On one of the changeovers, he announced that he was done playing the match and never wanted to play with me again until I learned to hit the ball "properly". He told me I was incapable of sustaining a "proper" baseline rally with any sort of pace and that it just wasn't worth his time to play with someone like me. So I apologized for my poor play (I think I was up 5-0) and left. A few hours later he texted and said that we clearly have a different idea about how the game of tennis should be played and that he just doesn't like playing with guys like me. I didn't respond.
I decided to use this strategy a few weeks ago against a guy that was beating me pretty easily in the spring when I was hitting harder (and making more errors). We played 2 weekends in a row. First time, I went up 4-1 in the first set, noticed he was getting mad, so I started hitting hard. He won the set 6-4 (and he was happy). Second set I won 6-2. Third set I went up 5-2 triple match point on his serve. Started hitting hard. Ended up winning that set in a tiebreak.
Next weekend I won the first set 6-2 and was up 3-0 in the second. He announced on the changeover that he could only play 15 more minutes. So, we stopped after the next game.
I'd rate both these guys 4.5 level (the second guy was in my 4.5 ladder in the spring). So this style works against this level. But it really pisses everybody off. So I don't do it all the time. And I also like to work on my more aggressive style tennis. Even if a "steady diet" of that is losing tennis for certain. It does help me learn how to finish points more quickly. Though most of the time against my 4.5 level opponents, they end up using my pace and aggressiveness against me and I lose more points than I win (but they are happy and want to play again).
EDIT: I should be clear. What is making these guys mad is, I've discovered that I can float balls high and deep and neutralize all rallies. So maybe my opponent hits a hard topspin forehand. Instead of returning the same shot back to them, sometimes I'll switch to a continental grip and just loft the ball, high and deep. Most guys can't hit a winner from the back court off this ball (though I've run into guys that can), so they'll try to and either make an error, or hit a shot that I can defend in the same way. After several of these, lots of guys just come unglued. A match like this really has no rhythm at all and is really boring to play. But if I want to win, not many guys can withstand several hours of that.
What you say is ultimately true, but I get his perspective though. He's just a "regular guy" that gets to play tennis a few times a week at most. He doesn't want to play against a guy that frustrates him. He came out to enjoy himself and unwind. Not to get involved with some pusher/looper type guy. He didn't come out so when he left he would be angry. He came out to enjoy himself. And he wasn't enjoying himself.The guy you were playing is a big crybaby and can’t take losing. Play properly what an a hole. There no such thing, play the game the way you want to and your opponent can play the way he wants to. That’s what makes tennis interesting there are all kinds of styles to adapt to.
I’ve played against these narcissistic jerks before they just whine because they are not that good and can’t beat a solid consistent player. So they come up with all this BS about I need to hit against more pace and your nothing but a pusher and on and on their excuses.
Again it just comes down to these guys have egos that are much bigger than their game is. They want to blast the ball because they think that makes them a good player, but if they can’t do is consistently enough they will lose most of the time. So they want to play against other ball blasters that make a lot of errors so then their errors aren’t so costly.
As far as better players not wanting to play against consistent grinder style players I’ve found the exact opposite. I get to play with quite a few of the better players at my club because they know I can keep the ball in the court and they will get to hit plenty of shots. Better players do not want to play against lower level players that come out there blasting the ball around trying to impress them.
What you say is ultimately true, but I get his perspective though. He's just a "regular guy" that gets to play tennis a few times a week at most. He doesn't want to play against a guy that frustrates him. He came out to enjoy himself and unwind. Not to get involved with some pusher/looper type guy. He didn't come out so when he left he would be angry. He came out to enjoy himself. And he wasn't enjoying himself.
Tennis isn't about winning for everybody and for every match. Sometimes you just want to play a guy that has a compatible style and is fun to hit with. Sure, you'll never get good just playing against guys that compliment your game and your skill set.
And because I know this, I try not to frustrate people that are easily frustrated. Unless I don't want to play them again. Otherwise, I try to play a friendly style and make the match enjoyable.
That said, this particular guy is an ahole. That's why I did what I did. He really got frustrated (and pretty much gave up) when he tried to cut off my shot and hit the volley. For the most part, he either made an outright error or hit a poor shot that I could pass him on. And he just got frustrated. Mostly because all he really wanted to do was have a groundstroke battle with the occasional finish at the net. He didn't want to patiently work points. He wanted to have fun.
I don't know. There's a guy that is a notorious drop shotter. He has trouble finding playing partners. Few people want to spend the evening running down drop shot after drop shot. Sure, it's tennis. But it's not much fun.If someone is easily frustrated then they shouldn’t play tennis, we all get frustrated at times but that’s part of playing any sport. I’m not sure what you mean by playing a friendly style and make the match enjoyable. Does that mean when playing a baby poor loser that you play sloppy so they can win?
One of my hitting partners is a more aggressive hitter than I am but we are pretty close in skill level. So our matches can go either way, if he is on enough with his bigger hitting he has a good chance of winning. But if I’m playing well and he can’t hurt me enough with his big shots then I will probably win.
We both try to win but even though our styles are somewhat different we never complain about our opponents style. We just play tennis the way we know best. When I play league matches I hear some of the crying from the ball blaster type players that I usually beat.
It’s always the same BS, I’m used to playing against more pace or I don’t like high topspin shots I’m used to hitting against lower faster shots. I’ve never played a sport with so much crying and excuse making as tennis. This would be like telling a pitcher in baseball that I don’t like curve balls so only throw fast balls or I’m going to get mad and not play anymore. Lol
Then his opponents should return the favor!I don't know. There's a guy that is a notorious drop shotter. He has trouble finding playing partners. Few people want to spend the evening running down drop shot after drop shot. Sure, it's tennis. But it's not much fun.
Adult "club" tennis does have unwritten rules of "fair play". And if you go too far over the line too often, you get shunned by the tennis community. That's just life.
To be honest 90% of this board needs to play like this as a fundamental building block to improving, it definitely helped me a lot when I transitioned from "decent but sloppy recreational player" to "men's college team/open tournament player". I see posts about analyzing body parts I've never heard of or thought about before, or people complaining about their strokes getting ruined by bad coaches or entire wings just disappearing and they never ever did their progressions or tried to practice efficiently.
No! Hit big or go home!
That's infinitely better than a loser.
I actually think it is in between. Many rec players can only push or swing as hard as they can.
If you really want to get better learn to hit a rally ball at 60-70% intensity. This is not easy to do because naturally the body wants to go either very low intensity or full intensity. If you can teach your body to swing cleanly at 60-70% it will make you a much better player. Let's say your max forehand is 70mph then try to hit a rally ball around 50mph. Pros max at 100 mph and their average rally ball is like 70 mph so they do this too.
If you hit that 70% rally ball you put enough pressure on the pusher without going a high risk. This is much better than trying either push with him at 30 mph or try to rip it 70 mph.
I actually think it is in between. Many rec players can only push or swing as hard as they can.
If you really want to get better learn to hit a rally ball at 60-70% intensity. This is not easy to do because naturally the body wants to go either very low intensity or full intensity. If you can teach your body to swing cleanly at 60-70% it will make you a much better player. Let's say your max forehand is 70mph then try to hit a rally ball around 50mph. Pros max at 100 mph and their average rally ball is like 70 mph so they do this too.
If you hit that 70% rally ball you put enough pressure on the pusher without going a high risk. This is much better than trying either push with him at 30 mph or try to rip it 70 mph.
It's just not fun to play him.Then his opponents should return the favor!
What you say is ultimately true, but I get his perspective though. He's just a "regular guy" that gets to play tennis a few times a week at most. He doesn't want to play against a guy that frustrates him. He came out to enjoy himself and unwind. Not to get involved with some pusher/looper type guy. He didn't come out so when he left he would be angry. He came out to enjoy himself. And he wasn't enjoying himself.
Tennis isn't about winning for everybody and for every match. Sometimes you just want to play a guy that has a compatible style and is fun to hit with. Sure, you'll never get good just playing against guys that compliment your game and your skill set.
And because I know this, I try not to frustrate people that are easily frustrated. Unless I don't want to play them again. Otherwise, I try to play a friendly style and make the match enjoyable.
That said, this particular guy is an ahole. That's why I did what I did. He really got frustrated (and pretty much gave up) when he tried to cut off my shot and hit the volley. For the most part, he either made an outright error or hit a poor shot that I could pass him on. And he just got frustrated. Mostly because all he really wanted to do was have a groundstroke battle with the occasional finish at the net. He didn't want to patiently work points. He wanted to have fun.