Overhead Camera Views of Tennis Strokes

C

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
For tennis strokes - that are often circular and more horizontal in nature to get forward ball speed - the overhead camera location is often the best to show the strokes.

This thread is to collect clear overhead camera views of tennis strokes.

(The forum has a limit of 5 videos per post.)
 
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I have used the Fuzzy Yellow Balls videos a thousand times. There are FYB videos of the forehand also and maybe others.
Chas Tennis said:
In about 2009, Fuzzy Yellow Balls made some serve videos from a camera placed above the server. The server was Frank Salazar. The flat, slice and kick serves were covered. Toly added some processing and created a composite picture.

These above camera views particularly show:
1) When internal shoulder rotation (ISR) starts.
2) The angular rotation in degrees from the start of ISR to impact.
3) Angles of the hand path, racket path, racket face, all vs time. Unfortunately, enough of the ball's trajectory is not shown for a firm trajectory. The ball appears to be headed to the right.

These ISR observations are important for the performance of the serve. Also, data on the angular rotation before impact is important for performance but in many years I have not found any data. My guess of the current ATP players' range of ISR rotation angle, from start to impact, is roughly from 50-100 degrees. There is not much available data or overhead videos for current 2021 servers. Angular measurements for ISR are very hard to find. These angles can be measured from these FYB videos for Frank Salazar.

Often posters' serve videos show that ISR starts close to impact or even after impact. This flaw indicates more understanding is needed for their serves. The above videos can be viewed and the range of ISR rotation angle measured with a protractor. Some pronation may be present in addition to the ISR.

Unfortunately, the side of the court for the serves, deuce or ad, is not clear and the ball direction has to be guessed from one frame of ball travel. It would be very informative to see some of the current ATP servers in similar camera set-ups.

Slice

Kick

Flat

This Toly composite picture does not cover the start of ISR, so the full angle of ISR rotation - from start to impact - has to be measured from the videos.
D6A9803246FB4B6C94EEEE4B78ADF2E6.jpg

( Toly composite picture of slice, flat and kick SALAZAR serves from above. dpr)

An overhead camera set up with Vic Braden working on a forehand set up probably at Gideon Ariel's Coto Research Center, CA. (Braden's association with Coto in story below.) The PVC cube is a reference for calibrating the camera.
9085A67C9D454D08A19BC144F0BFED0F.jpg


The Coto Research Center - - Ariel Dynamics

Ariel Dynamics, Inc. is a leading innovator and service provider in the fields of Athletics, Biomechanics, and Sports and Rehabilitative Medicine. It performs individual motion analysis studies, known as the Ariel Performance Analysis System (APAS), and manufactures computerized...
www.arielnet.com www.arielnet.com

The Sporting Life - Dynamic duo Vic Braden and Gideon Ariel - Ariel Dynamics

Ariel Dynamics, Inc. is a leading innovator and service provider in the fields of Athletics, Biomechanics, and Sports and Rehabilitative Medicine. It performs individual motion analysis studies, known as the Ariel Performance Analysis System (APAS), and manufactures computerized...
www.arielnet.com www.arielnet.com

Biomechanics: A Laboratory for Jocks - Gideon Ariel Wires Athletes and their playing fields to improve performance - Ariel Dynamics

Ariel Dynamics, Inc. is a leading innovator and service provider in the fields of Athletics, Biomechanics, and Sports and Rehabilitative Medicine. It performs individual motion analysis studies, known as the Ariel Performance Analysis System (APAS), and manufactures computerized...
www.arielnet.com www.arielnet.com

There are drones that have high speed video. Safety issue for some drones? - a builder was using a large drone, 5 lbs?, to document progress on houses that he was constructing. When asked if there had every been accidents, he said that when he started using the drone, he once let go of the controls and the drone was programmed to shut down. It fell to the ground.
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sureshs said:
She has 14 right hands?
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From the side camera view it appears as if Serena is swinging forward.

But from the above camera view, we can see that Serena is swinging primarily in a circular stroke and forward.

The 14 right hands covers the entire time of the strokes in one picture. That way our memory of past frames of videos don't have a chance to muddle up our perception of the tennis stroke.

In particular, the torso and angles of the uppermost body and arms during the serve are next to impossible to describe in words and can be very deceptive in camera views of only one direction. For example, Internal Shoulder Rotation during the tennis serve was missed by tennis researchers until 1995!! ISR should have been clear in a single overhead video. An interesting story if it could ever be told by some of those that studied the serve biomechanics and missed ISR for decades. A very big WHOOPS! I missed ISR for decades but was hardly studying the biomechanics of the serve. Gerald Paterson was known as the 'Human Catapult' and was filmed doing ISR in 1919. Then ISR was confirmed for the serve in 1995!

That's the story.

The most common videos are from ground level cameras; the most rare videos have been from overhead cameras. If we search for the overhead videos and include them, we are much more likely to understand the serve better.

Maybe Spinal Engine will show its spine bending signature in an overhead serve video?
 
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I hope that videos will be Youtubes as everyone can view them and they can be advanced single frame. Youtube is the most familiar video hosting website by orders of magnitude.
 
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Chas Tennis said:
The most common videos are from ground level cameras; the most rare videos have been from overhead cameras. If we search for the overhead videos and include them, we are much more likely to understand the serve better.
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I've recently been thinking about trying to film my own strokes from above, for additional perspective on what needs improvement. It quickly becomes clear that there is very very little pro reference to compare one's own footage to though.

Similarly, maybe because we rarely see strokes from that perspective, despite that it offers great information re those two dimensions simultaneously, I find, for example, those FYB videos from directly above (I've stared at them quite a bit as well) look so alien.

I'm def onboard for this post, if there is more good footage out there, to get better acquainted. Thanks for starting it.
 
liimey86 said:
I've recently been thinking about trying to film my own strokes from above, for additional perspective on what needs improvement. It quickly becomes clear that there is very very little pro reference to compare one's own footage to though.

Similarly, maybe because we rarely see strokes from that perspective, despite that it offers great information re those two dimensions simultaneously, I find, for example, those FYB videos from directly above (I've stared at them quite a bit as well) look so alien.

I'm def onboard for this post, if there is more good footage out there, to get better acquainted. Thanks for starting it
Click to expand...

Each camera angle shows something better. You want to look square on to the sub-motion of interest. The most convenient locations - ground level camera angles - have a lot of coverage available.

Now drones with high speed video cameras are available. They have some safety considerations.

But high camera angles can do a lot to make sure that you don't miss anything. This shows Thoracic Extension & T. Flexion and some of the 3D torso and uppermost body angles that are missed in ground level cameras that emphasize the height & forward components of body parts, hand, racket head and ball.

I have looked at a lot of serve videos in the last 15 years. But recently I noticed a high camera angle in a Sampras serve video that showed me a new perspective that was very important for the sub-motion called Cartwheel or Shoulder-Over-Shoulder. These old word tennis descriptions mislead the reader from what is shown in the videos from certain camera angles. The sub-motion appears as a chest rotation starting during Thoracic Extension.

I posted on the Sampras observation in thread The Tennis Serve - What's True? Once you see something like that, then you always see it whenever it is there. Miss a sub-motion for 15 years, and then see it from then on.......

Here is the Sampras video and camera angle when I first noticed "The sub-motion appears as a chest rotation starting during Thoracic Extension."
C

Post in thread 'The Tennis Serve - What's True?'

dennis said:
He mentions three technical changes:

1. Tossing arm 'on the wrong side of the head'. I believe this means too far to the left for right handed players.
2. Tossing hand inversion.*
3. Tossing arm stretching out towards the net as it comes down. I assume he means doing this for too long before bending and tucking into the body.

* Sabalenka now has the most extreme and early version of this on tour? As much as Gavin dismisses the psychological side, I wouldn't be surprised if the focus on turning the hand helps her mentally. It could be like a reassuring checkpoint.
Click to expand...

We should look...
C

Post in thread 'The Tennis Serve - What's True?'

Comparison of Sampras Serve 3:02 to Tim Lincecum baseball pitch.
similar camera angles to observe the chest rotate in a similar biomechanical way.

Sampras - Watch misnamed Shoulder-Over-Shoulder at 3:05
Lincecum - similar sub- motions at 52 and 1:06

There are many other clips in the Sampras video that may be useful.

You can see the same chest turn in the Sampras video and the Lincecum baseball pitch.


Chas Tennis said:
Karlovic serves for comparison to Sampras video

Compare especially Shoulder-over-Shoulder with Thoracic Extension from Sampras at...
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Since we are discussing the overhead camera, there is also an under impact camera placement for ground strokes. I used a ball machine with camera on a towel looking up. And blocked the camera from getting hit by the ball with my tennis bag.

C

Post in thread 'Application of High Speed Video to Tennis Strokes - School'

The Under Impact Camera

The overhead camera view of tennis strokes is rare because it requires supporting the camera above the server. Cherry pickers, booms, or drones may be used. Beware any safety issues. Some drones may drop under some circumstances.

To get around these problems I set up and tested an under impact camera and took a few videos of forehands at 240 fps (Casio FH100). This video has pauses. Also single frame on Youtube using the period & comma keys.


This camera was placed under the forehand on a towel and a ball machine was used. The...

It worked.

Text and angles were applied to the video using free open source Kinovea, an excellent video analysis app with many capabilities, including a count down timer that turns every video into a stroke timeline.
 
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Andy Murray strokes with some overhead camera coverage.
To single frame on Youtube, stop video, go full screen and use the period & comma keys.
 
Fuzzy Yellow Balls overhead camera view of Frank Salazar forehand.

To single frame on Youtube, stop video, go full screen and use the period & comma keys.
 
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Chas Tennis said:
I did not recognize that link as a video website. I did not view it.
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There is a whole series of Andy Murray with different strokes also filmed from above. I think they are also on youtube search “catch the moment with Andy Murray”
 
Happi said:
There is a whole series of Andy Murray with different strokes also filmed from above. I think they are also on youtube search “catch the moment with Andy Murray”
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I had given a quick search of the Youtube collection and did not find more Andy Murray in that series, just the one we both found and posted.
 
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Aretium said:





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Iov9ttL8OA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiOS6sCq2x8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKfsY-olbYI
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To single frame on Youtube use the period & comma keys.
Aretium said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZhCPMUFsYQ


From Rome, just press X 0.25
Click to expand...
Click expand to see the first 5 videos. The forum is limited to 5 videos per post. See last 4 videos in post # 22 below. Originally posted by @Aretium in another thread.
 
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To single frame on Youtube, stop video, go full screen and use the period & comma keys.




The serves - seen from above - are showing what has been called for many years the 'Cartwheel' or 'Shoulder-Over-Shoulder'. It looks very different than the old tennis terms would convey because the usual tennis terms are so poor and conceal the chest rotation from the spine seen from above. Thoracic Extension is important for how this appears.

It reminds me of the forehand in that the uppermost body is rotating rapidly and is aligned in the direction intended for the serve.
 
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You can untangle ISR, racket closing and any other forward motion from this close up video of a Frank Salazar Serve originally from a Fuzzy Yellow Balls video.

Chas Tennis said:
That is an excellent reference for how the joints are used for a golf swing.

Similar considerations have to be found for tennis.

In videos, I can see the line between the two shoulder joints, but I can't see Scapular Protraction and Scapular Retraction very accurately, so I just go with a line from one humerus ball to the other humerus ball, that is more my goal, rather than what I am able to actually see in a video. I hope to learn more when I come across scientific measurements. Watch his hand turn, that is mostly ISR.

Fuzzy Yellow Balls had some 2009 overhead camera views of Frank Salazar serve types. I don't know how Frank Salazar's serve compares to a typical ATP player of 2026 or other years, but the Salazar videos are some of the best sources that I have found.


From the above post here is the Frank Salazar slice serve video from an overhead camera.
delete
Go full screen and do single frame on Youtube use the period & comma keys.

Of most importance, the overhead camera view accurately shows the forward and side-to-side velocity of the racket head at the time of impact. Each joint motion source contributing to the forward motion at impact can be seen - to some degree, some not too well and some accurately - but that is what we have.

I see that ISR is the prominent source of forward racket head speed. Why does the racket head's forward motion overtake the hand's forward motion? I think that is mostly ISR. There is racket closing too.

The upward racket head velocity, toward or away from the camera, is minimized or hidden in the overhead camera view - the camera works just like one of your eyes - movement components toward or away from your eye are minimized or hidden.

We don't have an overhead view of the Monfil's serve of post #6.
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To single frame on Youtube, go full screen and use the period & comma keys.

I think that the Salazar and Monfil's serves could be similar in their sub-motions.

Other serves from similar camera angles could be found to compare to Monfil's but the only thing I see in the Monfil's serve was that the lighting and camera recording speed and shutter speed showed what was occurring in a typical ATP serve with a lean arm. For the same reasons, ISR was not noticed for decades by those studying the ATP serves until 1995 - no one ever disagrees when I say that......

It's too bad that there are not more overhead camera views of ATP players......as a way of informing people.
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Here is the overhead camera view of the serve impact. Forward racket head motion is shown at a favorable camera angle. This motion can be associated with the contributing joint motions at the time of impact. Look at the hand as an indicator of Internal Shoulder Rotation (ISR).

'Fuzzy Yellow Balls had some 2009 overhead camera views of Frank Salazar serve types. I don't know how Frank Salazar's serve compares to a typical ATP player of 2026 or other years, but the Salazar videos are some of the best sources that I have found.


From the above post here is the Frank Salazar slice serve video from an overhead camera.
Go full screen and do single frame on Youtube use the period & comma keys.

Of most importance, the overhead camera view accurately shows the forward and side-to-side velocity of the racket head at the time of impact. Each joint motion source contributing to the forward motion at impact can be untangled and seen - to some degree, some not too well and some accurately - but that is what we have.

I see that ISR is the prominent source of forward racket head speed. Why does the racket head's forward motion overtake the hand's forward motion? I think that is mostly ISR. There is racket closing too.

The upward racket head velocity, toward or away from the camera, is minimized or hidden in the overhead camera view - the camera works just like one of your eyes - movement components toward or away from your eye are minimized or hidden.'

We want the forward racket head velocity component through impact for pace. Similar videos exist for the flat and kick serves. Current ATP serve videos are needed.

This overhead camera view will be very valuable.

Thank you Fuzzy Yellow Balls, Frank Salazar and Toly for showing this serve impact.
 
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The best video I have ever seen for showing how different camera angles show different sub-motions of the serve, is this Love Tennis Sampras video. It is full of great camera angles, some high, and shows many different sub-motions at favorable camera angles. To understand what camera angles can do, study this video.

Entirely new view of Shoulder-Over-Shoulder sub-motion -

Start viewing serve clip at around 52 seconds, impact at 1:05. The serve clip shows the spinal rotation especially well.
To single frame select Youtube, full screen and use the period & comma keys.

The serve around 1:05 impact shows the serve during Thoracic Extension and spine rotation in a way that was new to me when I saw it. The camera is somewhat aligned with the spine and emphasizes its rotation. Spinal rotation is seen as the chest rotating. This motion in the past is actually what was called 'Cartwheel' (a very misleading term) or currently is called 'Shoulder-Over-Shoulder' (a term emphasizing the wrong body parts because the Thoracic Extension tilt and rotational aspects are ignored). But this camera view changed my thoughts away from shoulder heights more to the spinal rotation as seen by the chest rotating. Forget shoulder heights and consider a tilted rotation axis. In some regards, the sub-motions seen for 1:05 - and for other similar camera angles in this video - resemble the forehand but with Thoracic Extension tilt. I did not understand what this camera angle now shows me and now see that the word descriptions were misleading for me for most of my lifetime.

This video is full of other camera angles, including higher camera angles, each of which show some particular sub-motion best. Higher camera angles are less covered than ground level camera angles on the internet. And overhead cameras are the rarest on the internet. If you find something special, please post it.
 
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Here is another high camera view that shows the back view -

Entirely new view of Shoulder-Over-Shoulder sub-motion (needs a new name) -

Raonic serve showing his back as his upper body turn is high lighted by a stripe on the back of his shirt.
To single frame on Vimeo, click "V", go full screen, hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW keys.

Forth & Back display works on Vimeo, Click "V", go full screen, start the video and stop it, now, if you Drag the white video time indicator, you can go forth & back, forth & back ......to study any sub-motion of the serve. (While dragging you can move the cursor up out of the way.) Using Forth & Back makes some sub-motions more noticeable and easier to remember. Seeing it many times in a short time helps and being able to change the duration of sub-motion displays also helps too. If you do single frame, you forget the earlier frames moreso. If anything does not work, ask questions.

The stripe on his shirt reminds me of the rotation of the uppermost body during a forehand, except that during the serve Thoracic Extension has tilted the axis of the upper spine back. It is as if somewhat the biomechanics of the forehand may have been applied to the serve by the brief Thoracic Extension tilt back. The racket head is then also higher.

Does anyone else see it that way? Or another way?

Learn to apply Forth & Back and see what you can find. It should work on any athletic motion.
 
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Chas Tennis said:
reminds me of the rotation of the uppermost body during a forehand, except that during the serve Thoracic Extension has tilted the axis of the spine back. It is as if somewhat the biomechanics of the forehand may have been applied to the serve by the brief Thoracic Extension tilt back

Does anyone else see it that way?
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I see that similarity as well
 
Something changed for my Chromebook computer Chrome regarding single frame in Youtube for embedded videos in forum posts as first seen. It does not work.

If I click on Youtube on the screen to directly view on Youtub, single frame works with the period and comma as it did before March 2026.

It may be related to WhatsApp. ?

Anyone else?
 
Chas Tennis said:
Want to use high speed video to observe something about a tennis stroke?

Post what you would like to observe.



#SEARCH_VIDEO_TENNIS_STROKES
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This thread has some interesting posts.


In this post, the cursor can be placed in the video, select and drag the cursor around to view in 360 degrees. If that does not work, as on my computer, click on Youtube to view it there and not in the forum embedded version.
Chas Tennis said:
Is this what you meant?

Place cursor in video, click to select and hold and move it around. I can use the touch screen on my laptop to expand an area of the video.
UPDATE - To use go to Youtube, place cursor in video and drag around.

Looking directly down shows a Giroptic 360 cam camera. (cursor up)
Click to expand...


Click on Youtube because the embedded Youtube may not work, as on my computer. Place cursor on video, and left mouse click to select, Drag around to view court in 360 degrees.

 
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I need to view on Youtube to use single frame on Youtube. The forum embedded Youtube does not do single frame on my computer, a recent change. To get back to forum, click TW icon in top bar with the other website icons.

240 fps. Serve Type unknown.

From a front of body camera view this motion of the serve appears as the chest rotating. This has been called 'Shoulder-Over-Shoulder' or 'Cartwheel', both very poor - widely used - tennis terms that are very misleading. I believe that the joints involved are mainly of the spine untwisting.
 
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Stosur serve from above. Serve type unknown. Her ball watching technique is shown by her head. Notice the rapidity of her spinal rotation that makes her chest turn. This has been misnamed Shoulder-Over-Shoulder - another misleading tennis terms.
This video repeats the same frame for many seconds so it appears like slow motion. The speed of the chest turn stands out as a sudden turn.

Will check source to see if there is more information. Anatoly Antilpin (Toly)
 
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Toly composite video.
Watch on Youtube. To single frame on Youtube, stop video, go full screen, use the period & comma keys.

What is adding forward pace as the racket head goes toward the ball?
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The overhead camera view is the best to see the racket head both closing & rotating from ISR toward the ball.
 
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Overhead camera views of tennis strokes.
C

Post in thread 'Overhead view of pros playing or practicing?'

Some years ago Fuzzy Yellow Balls made overhead videos of Frank Salazar. Toly has processed some of them into composite stills and videos.

Searches like these: Frank Salazar FYB overhead Youtubes

Salazar FYB Youtubes
Frank Salazar Forehand overhead view
For serve
Salazar slice flat kick overhead Toly

Example, of high speed overhead video of Frank Salazar's forehand.
 
Madison Square Garden when Sampras played Federer.

Sampras serve overhead camera views at 1:09, 3:20 and 4:54. This is seen from a front camera view aa a chest turn (spinal). It has been called Cartwheel or Shoulder-Over--Shoulder in the Tennis Term Nuthouse of misleading terms.
Watch on Youtube, full screen. To single frame use the period & comma keys.

Longer version of the same event. Federer overhead camera view at 1:58 ....Sampras 4:02, 5:29.........If I missed any please post.


There are more overhead camera videos in this thread.
corners said:
This seems to be a very rare view - camera directly above the baseline or the court in general. The only two places I've seen it:

1. At the Madison Square Garden when Sampras played Federer. I believe they only used this camera to film serves. Overhead views of these two great servers are very interesting, but I'm more interested in groundstrokes.

2. Last month at Indian Wells, an overhead camera was used during the warmups. Pretty far shot, and the feed pretty quickly overlaid stats and matchup data over the shot, but it was a taste.

Does anyone know of any other footage, on Youtube or elsewhere, shot from directly above the baseline or court?
Click to expand...
 
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Thread with overhead camera views.

corners said:
This seems to be a very rare view - camera directly above the baseline or the court in general. The only two places I've seen it:

1. At the Madison Square Garden when Sampras played Federer. I believe they only used this camera to film serves. Overhead views of these two great servers are very interesting, but I'm more interested in groundstrokes.

2. Last month at Indian Wells, an overhead camera was used during the warmups. Pretty far shot, and the feed pretty quickly overlaid stats and matchup data over the shot, but it was a taste.

Does anyone know of any other footage, on Youtube or elsewhere, shot from directly above the baseline or court?
Click to expand...

Aretium said:


From Rome, just press X 0.25
Click to expand...
 
Toly overhead camera view of a slice serve. Composite video.

But I suspect that this serve is a flawed technique without enough ISR. The racket passes to the right of the ball for spin but ISR is lacking. ?
 
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