Pancho Gonzalez career stats

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by krosero, May 13, 2016.

  1. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Ivan, Thanks, I will answer tomorrow.

    Thanks for pointing to my counting error: I forgot one tournament in 1955. It should read "6". I have corrected it in my previous post.
     
  2. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    I'll try to address this; I don't have a single place that I could link to. I do have a lot of posts about it, but you're new here so I'll try to address it later.
     
  3. Ivan69

    Ivan69 Semi-Pro

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    Thanks, just don't loose much time. I like to have your vision on this TB's info. For me it is strange that Segura played in both events having in mind the players were in a way "split" between March and Riggs/Kramer as promoters.
     
  4. Ivan69

    Ivan69 Semi-Pro

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    Thanks, then for 1955 I miss 1 tournament. I have only these:
    Australian Open
    Brisbane
    Launceston
    London / Queen's Club
    Sydney - Manly seaside
     
  5. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Ivan, I'm sorry. I'm too tired now to answer today. Will try to answer you tomorrow.

    By the way, Thanks for sending me your e-mail address. But I was not able to use it yet. I wrote you but it did not work. I will keep the address with me.

    Best wishes,

    BobbyOne
     
  6. Ivan69

    Ivan69 Semi-Pro

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    Dan, TB publishes the ranking per a respective date not exclusively for a calendar year. And the TB ranking is continuous, i.e. the January achievements of the players are added to the end-December results. There is no movable ranking as you meant. As at the end of December 1959 TB has Gonzalez as No. 1. Hoad gets No. 1 in January 1960.
     
  7. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Legend

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    But the term is a moving 12 month rating, right...only a 12 month period, which moves along.
    Not a 13 month term.
     
  8. Ivan69

    Ivan69 Semi-Pro

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    The term is not moving. There is not a term as I said. The ranking is published by date, not for a period. You have to choose a date and TB gives you the ranking per this date. Please enter TB and see it exactly. As at the end of December Pancho is ranked #1, which is correct. Hoad is getting the first place in January short after Melbourne, Pancho didn't played there.
     
  9. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Legend

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    I saw it, it was not just January.
    It was not a monthly series, but a 3 or 4 month period. You should have noticed that.
    It seems to me that those rankings move along with an annual period. They do not make sense otherwise.
     
  10. Ivan69

    Ivan69 Semi-Pro

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    The TB ranking is the same as the current ranking - as per date. The difference is that currently we have a weekly ranking. The TB ranking for the pre-OE is less frequently - 2 weeks or monthly or bimonthly depending on the availability of tournaments, but it is always on a basis of a chosen date.
     
  11. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Legend

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    No, it is more like a three or four month period structure for the late fifties, and it appears that more data is included than simply the four month period, it looks like a moving 12 month.
     
  12. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    TB considers '51 Cleveland to be borderline, they said "B" would be fine. Their explanation of the A-B-C tiers: "A" tourneys are the 4 Slams and 3 pro majors, but other events go into "A" if it is VERY better than all the others (based on money, format, historic importance); two examples they gave were Wimbledon Pro and Barcelona '66.
     
  13. Ivan69

    Ivan69 Semi-Pro

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    I know their categorization and I think they are logically wrong about some tournaments. I have asked them 2 times per e-mail for some explanations but they obviously didn't want to respond to me.
    Anyway, did they gave their explanation why they consider Cleveland '51 as not pro major in contrast of what you found as proof?
     
  14. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    No we didn't get into that. As for whether it's a major, I'd have to give that some thought; my focus has been on researching what actually happened, ie, the history behind the events.
     
  15. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Ivan, I have for 1955: Eastern Suburbs. Final: Rosewall d Candy

    1956: Toowoomba: Rosewall d Gaydon
    Oskarsham: Rosewall d Fraser.

    1958: Hamburg/Berlin: Rosewall d Trabert

    Nizza and Oran are doubtful. So I only have four tournament wins (and only 139 altogether).

    More tomorrow.
     
  16. Ivan69

    Ivan69 Semi-Pro

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    Thanks, do you have some details on Eastern suburbs, Toowoomba and Oskarsham (dates, how many players have played)?

    I have this Hamburg/Berlin event as a part of the European tour (Rosewall is the winner). Do you have more info that it was a separate tournament?
     
  17. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Ivan, Must yet have a look about dates, etc.

    1959: Palermo is a tournament. A tour can include a tournament.

    1962: Wellington and Auckland are 4 man tournaments.

    1967: I know about a Rosewall's tournament win in the Italian tour of August,1967. Stolle won another tournament in that 4 cities tour. Unfortunately, no details.

    Also invitational tournaments are tournaments. I consider them.
     
  18. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Ivan, Unfortunately I only have little information you wanted.

    Toowoomba 1956 was played on grass; Rosewall d Gaydon 6-1, 6-4.

    Oskarsham was held in July, 1956.

    No specific information about Hamburg/Berlin 1958.
     
  19. NoMercy

    NoMercy New User

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    -Palermo 1959 was not a tournament, only part of the European Grand Prix.
    -Oskarshamns 1956 was not a tournament, but only an amateur exhibition between the two Australians and two Swedish players. They played the two singles and the double. They did the same in Slagelse (Denmark, vs two Danish players) two days later.
    -Toowoomba 1956 was played on Australian clay
    -Toowoomba 1954 was not a tournament, just a one day exhibition with many amateurs players involved, playing one-set match
    -Hamburg/Berlin 1958 was not a tournament, but it's part of a four cities swing in Germany, including also Nurnberg and Hanover
     
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  20. Ivan69

    Ivan69 Semi-Pro

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    Thanks, NoMercy! I think the same. Aren't Wellington and Auckland a part of the New Zealand tour in 1962?
     
  21. NoMercy

    NoMercy New User

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    Not sure about those.
    They could have been both.
     
  22. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    NoMercy, You seem to be an interesting and well-informed person. May I ask you where you have got that specific additional information that was not known before?

    But I don't understand your statement about Oskarshamns. If there were only exhibitions between Aussies and Swedish players why then played Rosewall Neale Fraser as far as I know?

    I still believe that Palermo 1959 was a tournament. An event being part of a tour does not exclude the possibility of tournaments. We do know about several 4-man tournaments within a tour, sometimes typically as a highlight of the tour. That event seems to having been the only event in Italy. Thus it looks like a tournament. McCauley has it as tournament.

    I'm also not convinced that Hamburg/Berlin were tour matches. Again the same problem: Can an event of a longer tour be a small tournament? I say yes.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017 at 4:47 PM
  23. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Ivan, As told a tour can include small tournaments such as Wellington and Auckland. It's telling that these two cities are the two biggest in New Zealand.
     
  24. NoMercy

    NoMercy New User

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    1) Fraser and Rosewall did not played against. It is just a wikipedia legend.
    Have you ever found a result of that match?
    2) Palermo 59 was not a tournament for sure because on "Il giornale di Sicilia" there is the program of the two days, with the match ups already scheduled
    3) Hamburg and Berlin same thing.
    It was part of the European tour with match ups already decided (every player had to play the same amount of matches versus all the other ones)
     
  25. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    NoMercy, You really deserve your nickname ;-)

    Your explanations are convincing.

    Could it be that the events in the four German cities were a RR tournament?
     
  26. Ivan69

    Ivan69 Semi-Pro

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    I asked you to give me some details (if you have) about some tournaments.
    About Oskarshamn and Toowoomba I have a similar info as NoMercy - invitational. The same case is with some titles in 75, 76, 77. The inv and exh matches are interesting for the statistics, but not countable as official titles. Example - if we count the inv / exh tournaments of Connors we should have about 150 titles. Nobody counts 150 titles for Connors, but 109.

    About Palermo and Hamburg / Berlin - till now I haven't seen any proof (official or non-official) that those events were tournaments.

    About Wellington and Auckland - the same - no proof; in addition I don't see a logic to count a title of a tournament which is part of a tour which I also count a title for.

    I still miss a info for another title in 1967.

    Till I have more info about the above mentioned or anything new I can't count them as titles.
     
  27. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Ivan, So rigid?

    Invitational tournaments are also tournaments. Yes, Connors has won about 150 tourneys.

    I told you that I don't know more about that 1967 Rosewall title but I do know he won at least one such title in that summer tour of Italy.

    I trust McCauley that the Wellington and Auckland titles were tournaments. It's your problem that you count tours as titles. I don't.

    You told me that TB has counted 145 Rosewall titles. That's only possible if they include the New Zealand titles (not tours), as I think.

    Of course I count the Gunze tournaments. They were hard fought events as Nastase confirmed indirectly when he praised Rosewall's shots after the 1977 final.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017 at 7:34 AM
  28. Ivan69

    Ivan69 Semi-Pro

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    No, Bobby, not rigid. I like to be cautious in the jungle of checked and non-checked info. I don't want to neither overrate nor underrate a player.

    The inv tournaments are tournaments generating only money (Gunze also), but not ranking points, not included in the rankings, not official. Have Mubadala and Laver Cup something to do with the rankings? Are the winner's titles included in their resume. Not at all.

    About Wellington and Auckland you are probably right, but we don't have any details. As you saw from the krosero's hundreds of researches McCauley has multiple errors.

    It's a more linguistic matter how should be named the win of a tour. TB named the tour wins titles. So am I, making the difference between titles from tournaments and titles from tours.

    TB counts 145 titles, incl. 5 invitational with zero value. From the regular 140 titles it counts 124 tournament titles and 16 tour titles. They don't count the discussed tournaments in the previous post at all. They count the New Zealand tour with Rosewall as a winner, Gimeno second etc.
     
  29. NoMercy

    NoMercy New User

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    Wellington and Auckland could have been tournament.
    A 4man tournament is when the second day depends on the first one.
    I don't know for sure what happened there.
    Taormina, Venice and San Remo 1964 are tournaments, because second day depends on first day (and there was a cup on the line) but they belongs to Trofeo Facis too.
    I don't understand why these two possibilities can't co-exist.

    Connors won 147 titles, 109 is just the ATP number, that is not even official, because for example Manchester 74 is a mistake.
    It was included without any reason : it didn't belong to any circuit, prize money like the tournament of my church, garbage players.
    Among the 38 non ATP tournaments there are some really good, with big money and big players
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017 at 7:24 PM
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  30. NoMercy

    NoMercy New User

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    No Bobby, no RR tournament.
    Sorry for your beloved Kenny :D

    PS Kenny is one of my favorite players all time
     
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  31. Ivan69

    Ivan69 Semi-Pro

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    I said the same - they could be tournaments, but we don't have enough data at the time.

    About Connors you are wrong - it is not only ATP counting 109. TB, Wiki, Hall of Fame count also 109.

    I am not talking of the non-ATP tournaments in general. Still there were independent tournaments in 70's and 80's. I am talking of some of them which were invitational or exhibition (where specific players were individually invited for some events). Of course the invited players are highly paid, but those are not regular events where all the players could play.
     
  32. NoMercy

    NoMercy New User

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    Because it's a conventional number right now.
    Everybody thinks 109 when they thinks about Jimbo because it's what ATP has.
    But it's wrong. Like many numbers on ATP. Like Karlovic as the ace leader, when Ivanisevic has more aces than him.
    Like surfaces, venues, dates....
    They have tournaments listed in wrong years and you take ATP as an example!?!

    Wikipedia counts like zero: it's written by persons like me and you.
    If you look carefully, TB has Connors with 109 ATP titles and 148 overall (and it's good, ATP tournaments is a good definition).
     
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  33. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Ivan, Did you know that even at some GS tournaments ((US amateur championships) players were invited and other players not? They still were true tournaments and true majors!
     
  34. Ivan69

    Ivan69 Semi-Pro

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    You become little aggressive. Where did I mention that ATP is my source and the only source? Please don't put wrong words in my mouth.

    ATP has many mistakes, especially in the past. But whether we like it or not currently it is the only official tennis organisation together with ITF. We can blame ATP for the past, but in the presence and in the future it is the one which defines everything - the calendar, the ranking points, the ranking, the rules, the penalties etc.

    If you also look carefully TB has 109 titles with a value of the tournament based on the category and the other 39 are with a zero value. And these 39 don't affect the ranking at all, they are just statistical and interesting for the fans.

    Please answer, also krosero who liked your post, are Mubadala, Laver Cup, Hopman cup or last year's Milan exh giving ranking points, are the winner's titles recognized to the players' resume?

    The invitational and exhibition matches have totally different purpose, ideology and organisation. They are not competitive, because the players are invited not seeded based on ranking or players' wish to participate. These tournaments have purely advertising and commercial effect. In some very rare cases like the Laver cup it has a very good purpose dedicated to a great player.

    It's not only tennis, in all sports the invitational, exhibition and friendly matches are NOT COUNTED AS OFFICIAL.
     
  35. NoMercy

    NoMercy New User

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    Manchester was not awarding any ATP points. Like many other tournaments listed in the ATP website.
    On the other hand, ATP forgot to include in its database tournaments that were official at the time and were awarding ATP points, like Istanbul73, Palmettp73, Acapulco74, Dusseldorf75, Aviles76 and more.
    109 is just a mistake.
    But it looks you don't know very well this subject, so it's better to skip it and go on.
    Have a good day
     
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  36. Ivan69

    Ivan69 Semi-Pro

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    Yeah, Bobby. Some players were invited to GS (not only) especially before the WW 2, because the organizers wanted to have bigger draw purely commercially (64 or 128 or even 256 in some years) and weren't able to find so many players. It was more prestigious to play in a bigger draw. It's simple.

    Bobby, currently all slams' organizers also use the invitation scheme in order to support some young players or some long injured players etc. This invitation now is called "wild card". But this has nothing to do with the tournaments planned and organised as invitational.
     
  37. Ivan69

    Ivan69 Semi-Pro

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    Obviously you want to continue with your arrogant attitude. You didn't answer my question about Mubadala, Laver Cup etc., of course, it's not nice for you. Anyway, not surprising!

    It's not you, all the serious tennis fans know that ATP database is not full. You are not discovering the hot water. If you don't know except these 5 tournaments there are another hundreds of tournaments not sanctioned by ATP. And I count all those tournaments.

    Instead of being so arrogant explain why 109 is a mistake. It's normal you want to skip it because you can blame not having enough arguments.
     
  38. NoMercy

    NoMercy New User

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    As I said before, my conversation with you is over.
    It's getting boring.
    Take care
     
  39. Ivan69

    Ivan69 Semi-Pro

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    For sure, it is very easy to escape when you don't have arguments.
    Take care!
     
  40. Ivan69

    Ivan69 Semi-Pro

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    Dan, do you have some details about this tour? I have an info about 5 pro tournaments in Italy in 1962 while Hoad haven't won none of them.
     
  41. Ivan69

    Ivan69 Semi-Pro

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    krosero, I have for Laver 11 tournament titles for 1964. But for Rosewall I have 12 as follows:
    Cannes Pro
    Cape Town Pro
    French Pro
    Hannover Pro
    Johannesburg Pro (second)
    Los Angeles Pro
    Melbourne Pro
    Milwaukee Pro
    San Remo Pro
    St. Louis Pro
    Taormina Pro
    Venice Pro

    Am I somewhere wrong?
     
  42. NoMercy

    NoMercy New User

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    Laver won the only tournament played in Johannesburg that year.
    Only in 1966 there were two tournaments in Johannesburg (one won by Laver, one won by Kenny)
     
  43. NoMercy

    NoMercy New User

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    Trofeo Facis was awarded to the player with more total points obtained in Italy in all competitions (ONS, tournaments, Kramer Cup) in singles and doubles. Hoad won Trofeo Facis in 1962
     
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  44. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Ivan the second Johannesburg Pro is the Challenge Match on Oct. 31. It can be listed as a "title," for example at Tennis Base where titles include not just tournaments but also other events like tours. But it wasn't a tournament.
     
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  45. Ivan69

    Ivan69 Semi-Pro

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    I am asking because TB lists this as one-match World pro challenge and count it as a title.
     
  46. NoMercy

    NoMercy New User

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    I don't think so.
    Check better
     
  47. Ivan69

    Ivan69 Semi-Pro

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    I am discussing the issue with crosero. I would like to discuss the tennis issues with constructive and friendly people. You started the discussions here aggressively and arrogant. No matter if you have more info or less about tennis I accept this thread as a place of tennis fans sharing their knowledge, experience, data, opinion etc. Sorry to say it, but you started with me and Bobby too heavy. Despite this I am open to discuss issues with you but only in a normal way.
     
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  48. NoMercy

    NoMercy New User

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    I am very friendly.
    I just say things as they are.
     
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  49. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Take it easy please Ivan, let's keep talking about tennis. NoMercy has been brief in his posts, and that manner can be taken as arrogant or dismissive but he really is just being brief and to the point, nothing else.

    I may be mistaken about what the exact terminology is at Tennis Base, I'll have to check that. All I can say about '64 is that Ken has 11 conventionally defined tournaments, and the Challenge Match, which is a rare event and difficult to classify. I think it's a choice whether to call it a title. But at least we can say it wasn't a tournament.
     
  50. Ivan69

    Ivan69 Semi-Pro

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    Maybe you are friendly, maybe. The way you are saying the things was not friendly.
     
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