Paretto Rule

[geepeeone]

Josh Waitzkin was a chess champion, Taiji Push Hands world champion, and also a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu world class black belt. His book talks alot about the 80/20 rule to progress fast in any discipline. I picked up tennis at 33 y.o. and I believe this is the best approach for me to adopt.

What would you say are the 20 over-arching themes that apply to most strokes in tennis that I can concentrate on?

Peeking to where the ball is going too soon before contact
Being too close to the ball
Not hitting through contact
Late takeback
Balance before and after the shot

Does this list sounds about right?

 

[RiverRat]

Catch the ball out in front #1. Others are good.

 

[geepeeone]

Catch the ball out in front #1. Others are good.

Ah yes, thank you. Not timing the swing right.

 

[Deleted member 771407]

Josh Waitzkin was a chess champion, Taiji Push Hands world champion, and also a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu world class black belt. His book talks alot about the 80/20 rule to progress fast in any discipline. I picked up tennis at 33 y.o. and I believe this is the best approach for me to adopt.

What would you say are the 20 over-arching themes that apply to most strokes in tennis that I can concentrate on?

Peeking to where the ball is going too soon before contact
Being too close to the ball
Not hitting through contact
Late takeback
Balance before and after the shot

Does this list sounds about right?

The most important to add to your list is to keep your wrist and your forearm relaxed on all shots except the volleys. You won't get better if you hold your racquet too tightly.

The second one is to run, a lot. Always keep your legs active. It's easy to get too focused on technique and to forget that tennis is a sport, and getting to the ball as fast as you can is the first rule. If you get to the ball quickly you will have time to hit a clean shot.
The corollary of the above point is to position yourself smartly to get to the ball even faster : cut the angles of your opponents and anticipate your position. For exemple when you hit a Down the line shot, start running to the other side of the baseline because when your opponent gets to it your ideal court position will be there.

The I guess try to use all your body to hit the ball, not just your arm. Legs and torso rotation are were the most efficient power comes from.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Josh Waitzkin was a chess champion, Taiji Push Hands world champion, and also a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu world class black belt. His book talks alot about the 80/20 rule to progress fast in any discipline. I picked up tennis at 33 y.o. and I believe this is the best approach for me to adopt.

What would you say are the 20 over-arching themes that apply to most strokes in tennis that I can concentrate on?

Peeking to where the ball is going too soon before contact
Being too close to the ball
Not hitting through contact
Late takeback
Balance before and after the shot

Does this list sounds about right?

BTW: Pareto's Rule doesn't literally mean there are 20 things to concentrate, only that, in general, a few things will contribute an outsized effect to the end result [ie 20% of your customers will generate 80% of the complaints, etc].

I'd argue that if you try to concentrate on 20 things, you will end up with a jumbled mess.

Another thing: your list has 4 things to avoid and one to embrace. I'd reword it so they are all things to embrace [ie "keep your eyes locked on the contact point through contact" vs "don't peek too soon"]. It's easier for the brain to do something rather than avoiding doing something.

How about the 3Fs: footwork, fitness, focus [mental toughness], and spacing.

 

[Dragy]

How about the 3Fs: footwork, fitness, focus [mental toughness], and spacing.

You are fertilizing pusher sprouts with this stuff!

 

[geepeeone]

BTW: Pareto's Rule doesn't literally mean there are 20 things to concentrate, only that, in general, a few things will contribute an outsized effect to the end result [ie 20% of your customers will generate 80% of the complaints, etc].

I'd argue that if you try to concentrate on 20 things, you will end up with a jumbled mess.

Another thing: your list has 4 things to avoid and one to embrace. I'd reword it so they are all things to embrace [ie "keep your eyes locked on the contact point through contact" vs "don't peek too soon"]. It's easier for the brain to do something rather than avoiding doing something.

How about the 3Fs: footwork, fitness, focus [mental toughness], and spacing.

Uhmm...Yes I do know what Pareto's rule is (apologies for the initial misspelling) but thank you for explaining it to me again. I gave the reader the benefit of the doubt that he knows it too and wouldn't interpret the "20" literally as 20, but merely a figure of speech to communicate the thought.

"Don't" appeals to my heart; "do" appeals to my the mind. To me, ideas endure when I feel it emotionally rather than know it mentally - that's why the list is phrased in such a way. The fine tuning part is mental for me, and is possible only after I've "felt" and "digested" the information.

 

[geepeeone]

...keep your wrist and your forearm relaxed on all shots except the volleys

Solid! This one, I may have only vaguely know about it, until you put into words. I appreciate it. Thank you.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Solid! This one, I may have only vaguely know about it, until you put into words. I appreciate it. Thank you.

What is “solid?” The advice on how to hit serve and groundies or the advice on how to mishit volleys?

 

[BenC]

BTW: Pareto's Rule doesn't literally mean there are 20 things to concentrate, only that, in general, a few things will contribute an outsized effect to the end result [ie 20% of your customers will generate 80% of the complaints, etc].

This. I think a better interpretation of the Pareto principle in tennis would be something like 20% of your skillset will win 80% of your points ... hence, why many competitive players have monstrous serves and forehands, and their other strokes are much more pedestrian. (I don't know if the numbers actually bear out that way, just throwing this out there.)

 

[Dragy]

This. I think a better interpretation of the Pareto principle in tennis would be something like 20% of your skillset will win 80% of your points ... hence, why many competitive players have monstrous serves and forehands, and their other strokes are much more pedestrian. (I don't know if the numbers actually bear out that way, just throwing this out there.)

What about when 20% of your weaknesses are responsible for 80% of your lost points?

 

[Deleted member 771407]

What is “solid?” The advice on how to hit serve and groundies or the advice on how to mishit volleys?

Did anything I say warrant your sas ? My advice wasn't about volleys, but since instead of explaining he chose to be sassy : you must never use your forearm, but you musnt have a loose wrist when volleying.

There, you're welcome

 

[Ash_Smith]

"Don't" appeals to my heart; "do" appeals to my the mind. To me, ideas endure when I feel it emotionally rather than know it mentally - that's why the list is phrased in such a way. The fine tuning part is mental for me, and is possible only after I've "felt" and "digested" the information.

Here's a fun one. Our brains struggle with the idea of "don't" because in order to deconstruct a concept it first has to construct it - i.e in order to understand what not doing something looks like, the first thing it has to do is imagine doing it - hence why framing this as "do" rather than"don't" is psychologically more effective.

In response to your pareto's law question - protecting your contact point above all else.

 

[geepeeone]

What about when 20% of your weaknesses are responsible for 80% of your lost points?

Damn. Smart. I feel stupid for not having though of it this way

 

[geepeeone]

What is “solid?” The advice on how to hit serve and groundies or the advice on how to mishit volleys?

The way I understand it, it was meant for groundies and serve - volleys not included.

TBH, I don't believe volleys apply to the "20%" must learn and be better than the opponent principle here. It's a skillset way above 3.5 and 4.0 level.

On any singles matches esp 3.5-4.0 levels, the player who has the better Serve, Return of Serve, 3rd and 4th shots almost always wins the game. (S&V is not something 3.5-4.0 can reliable win with - never seen one at my level).

In my experience, 3.5s-4.0s that insist on that style, do so to hide their groundies from the baseline. I flag those quickly.

 

[geepeeone]

In response to your pareto's law question - protecting your contact point above all else.

This was a thoughtful response. I am very grateful sir, I will make sure to make this my mantra on the court.

Not sure about appealing to the mind. I tend to forget things that is not tied to anything emotionally. I will play with it and give it a go. Thank you.

 

[geepeeone]

Did anything I say warrant your sas ? My advice wasn't about volleys, but since instead of explaining he chose to be sassy : you must never use your forearm, but you musnt have a loose wrist when volleying.

There, you're welcome

"
The most important to add to your list is to keep your wrist and your forearm relaxed on all shots except the volleys. You won't get better if you hold your racquet too tightly."

It was the opposite of sas, but a thankful OP appreciating the solid advise to be used in tensed situations.

Things sometimes stay at the back of my mind until its put into words. Errors creep into my game when my matches are close. Couldn't buy a regulation groundy to save my life and it feels I just learned tennis a week ago.

I was connecting your advise to match experience. I apologize if it felt the other way around.

 

[FIRETennis]

Serve
Return

And if you want to get fancy: the next shot after those...

 

[golden chicken]

Swing path and racket face angle at contact. The rest is superfluous.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

The most important to add to your list is to keep your wrist and your forearm relaxed on all shots except the volleys.

I relax on certain volleys: drop volleys, half-volleys, delicate touch volleys [mostly in doubles where I'm trying to squeeze the ball in between the net man and the alley]. It's very difficult to hit those shots with a tight grip.

 

[Deleted member 771407]

I relax on certain volleys: drop volleys, half-volleys, delicate touch volleys [mostly in doubles where I'm trying to squeeze the ball in between the net man and the alley]. It's very difficult to hit those shots with a tight grip.

Well it should not be completely tight, but rather firm. I'm not a volley expert, I'm just parroting what most teachers and pros say.

"
The most important to add to your list is to keep your wrist and your forearm relaxed on all shots except the volleys. You won't get better if you hold your racquet too tightly."

It was the opposite of sas, but a thankful OP appreciating the solid advise to be used in tensed situations.

Things sometimes stay at the back of my mind until its put into words. Errors creep into my game when my matches are close. Couldn't buy a regulation groundy to save my life and it feels I just learned tennis a week ago.

I was connecting your advise to match experience. I apologize if it felt the other way around.

No worries I was not answering to you but to the guy I quoted, ballmachineguy.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Well it should not be completely tight, but rather firm. I'm not a volley expert, I'm just parroting what most teachers and pros say.

Do some experiments on your own: try to hit a drop volley with a firm grip and then progressively loosen it to see what effect that has.

 

[GuyClinch]

Tremendously talented or gifted individuals are not really the best to learn from IMHO as they can succeed in spite of their pop psych theories not because of them. This is the correlation causation problem..

Now if I knew a guy who was a lousy athlete - picked up the sport late and dominated - I would be impressed.

Here is a good approach to advancing quickly to something close to your natural limit.

1. Take weekly lessons.
2. Schedule practice sessions with other players and practice skills and drills (not match play).
3. Only start on match play later when you feel comfortable with all the strokes.
4. Watch your diet and improve your fitness..
5. Record your matches when you start playing them.

This works out to at least 20hours a week if you want to advance nearly as fast as possible to your genetic potential..
I don't think there are any pop psychology shortcuts - I can hold some mantra in my head like (good spacing) and never really fix it - if I don't practice enough.

 

[Slowtwitcher]

Paretto's Law, while attractive on the surface, it's often misinterpreted/misrepresented. This thread is a nice example of that.

Also got a chuckle that OP asked for 20 things to focus on... a total random number

 

[geepeeone]

Paretto's Law, while attractive on the surface, it's often misinterpreted/misrepresented. This thread is a nice example of that.

Also got a chuckle that OP asked for 20 things to focus on... a total random number

Apparently you're not familiar with figures of speech

 

[geepeeone]

Tremendously talented or gifted individuals are not really the best to learn from IMHO as they can succeed in spite of their pop psych theories not because of them. This is the correlation causation problem..

Now if I knew a guy who was a lousy athlete - picked up the sport late and dominated - I would be impressed.

Here is a good approach to advancing quickly to something close to your natural limit.

1. Take weekly lessons.
2. Schedule practice sessions with other players and practice skills and drills (not match play).
3. Only start on match play later when you feel comfortable with all the strokes.
4. Watch your diet and improve your fitness..
5. Record your matches when you start playing them.

This works out to at least 20hours a week if you want to advance nearly as fast as possible to your genetic potential..
I don't think there are any pop psychology shortcuts - I can hold some mantra in my head like (good spacing) and never really fix it - if I don't practice enough.

Well, I'm short (5'7") skinny (130 lbs) and an older Asian - I must be very close to my genetically low athletic potential. To all short, skinny, Asians in here - it was joke!

Thank you GuyC

 

[maleyoyo]

20% increase in your net clearance on ground strokes and serve would reduce your chance of hitting the net by 80%.