Passing shots

[CAREDDINGTON]

I have a new opponent who I play occasionally who has historically been an aggressive baseliner with a great drive fh, decent slice bh and an ordinary (poor) drive bh. Hes about 6'2" with a mediocre serve for someone his height. (1st serve on average about 155-160kph, 2nd serve moderate amount of spin, slice topspin).
He has a mediocre overhead and isnt good at pronating.

The initial opponent this thread was about, had an epiphany one day when for physical reasons, he decided to follow both 1st and 2nd serves in to the net. He morphed from an ocassional S&Ver all courter, to a fully fledged net rusher, on a windy day, what ensued was a flurry of (some woefully) errant passing shots and a 2/6 3/6 defeat for me. Which was followed a couple of matches later by another 3/6 3/6 defeat. Prior to his net rushing days his most convincing win was 7/5 6/2, due to a lights out serving display (15 aces).

My new opponent I'd recently beaten 6/0 6/0 and 6/1 6/1. There was a 6/4 between those two. Id regularly broken him in the 1st game of the 1st set, Brad Gilbert style. However he has excellent feel on his drop shots and drop volleys. He was a +7 hcp (still never shoots over par) golfer in his day, with great feel around the greens.
So this time he got all, decent quality, 1st serves in, in the first game and I was a bit complacent, I didnt pull out all stops to ensure every serve at least came back into his court. He breaks me in the 2nd game and his tail's up. So my usual response to this would be to go into lockdown, block the returns back deep to his fh to open up his bh. However, he's got other ideas, he starts popping up at the net behind all his serves, and putting away drop volleys on the relatively low balls and angled/drop volleys on the highish returns. He holds his 2nd service game in no time.
I ended up losing the 2/6 2/6 6/3. So I did won the 3rd set.
I went through patches of trying to slice the return back low and trying to hit dipping heavy topspin. Neither was succesful, he dealt with them easily and I served up a steady flow of missed returns here and there.

Now the ISSUE I HAVE is that after the success of this thread against my initial opponent (who liked to volley deep with the odd drop volley), Im now playing someone whos the opposite (he only volleys deep when the drop/angled volley isnt on). So one of the key dot points from the game plan that worked so well in exhibit A, comes under scrutiny. Is it wise to take the pace off returns against an S&Ver who volleys short most of the time?

What is the key to preventing effective dtop volleys?
Is it returning with pace? Making them move (hitting returns that stretch them move laterally)
Standing in to return? Standing back?
Hitting straight at them with pace?
(Creating angle seems to be more easy with modern strings and besides you dont need angle to hit a short winner)

Winning ugly says to;
soft return
Bust it at them
Lob
Mix and match - (Mix it up) This one I didnt do well. I just had patches of doung the same thing. I think any netrusher will tell you that rhythm is key. I need to be able to chip, drive (flat or loopy) or lob, with the same grip.

Also Gilbert says to lob over their bh. Personally I think you need to keep them off balance, by going wide over their fh side sometimes. What do you think?

Id be interested to hear your (and everyones) thoughts on this topicvand the questions Ive raised!? Cheers, HuusHould.

Hit deep balls that do not give the ability to come to the net.

 

[HuusHould]

Definitely during the rally, on my serve, this is key. I know I need to work on this.
However, my main issue is keeping him away from the net with my return of serve.

 

[CAREDDINGTON]

Definitely during the rally, on my serve, this is key. I know I need to work on this.
However, my main issue is keeping him away from the net with my return of serve.

Take a step or two off the baseline and focus on the idea of a 'hit back', not a full-swing stroke.

 

[movdqa]

Everyone has stuff that they like and don't like at the net and it varies by player.

If your opponent has a very high-powered racquet, then blasting away may work well as the volley itself may be hard to control. If they have a very low-powered racquet, then dealing with hard shots is a lot easier for the net player.

Some don't like soft and low shots to the body and some don't like soft and low out wide.

You have to figure out what they like and don't like in the warmup. If you play with them regularly, then you should learn this over time.

 

[Jonesy]

Focus on spin, you don't have to worry about depth if your opponent is glued to the net, so even if you can't pass him at least make him tie his shoes.

 

[HuusHould]

Take a step or two off the baseline and focus on the idea of a 'hit back', not a full-swing stroke.

So actually move a couple of steps back from the baseline and shorten my backswing?

 

[movdqa]

So actually move a couple of steps back from the baseline and shorten my backswing?

I normally stand 10 feet behind to forward of the baseline depending on the server. I see lots of ATP players stand much further back than that and I can do that but I'm not used to the timing and distance on the return to hit the return. Still, it works for a lot of pros. But it would take some practice to be able to stand in radically different places.

 

[CAREDDINGTON]

So actually move a couple of steps back from the baseline and shorten my backswing?

Yes. You could also work on an approach from 3 or 4 feet back.

 

[HuusHould]

If your opponent has a very high-powered racquet, then blasting away may work well as the volley itself may be hard to control. If they have a very low-powered racquet, then dealing with hard shots is a lot easier for the net player.

Funny you should mention this, he has what I consider the "mother of all powerful racquets" the Babolat pure drive!
I actually think I give him too nuch time and dont make him move enough. I guess a drop volley is similar to a drop shot insofar as the way to combat it goes. Its generally easier to drop shot in reply to slow balls that you dont have to stretch for. But hitting at pace near the lines combines two factors that can lead to unforced errors. So I feel I need to mix it up.

Some don't like soft and low shots to the body and some don't like soft and low out wide.

You have to figure out what they like and don't like in the warmup. If you play with them regularly, then you should learn this over time.

Youve given a couple of good examples. I guess I just need to brainstorm all the possible types of return he might not like.
I think lobbing is somwthing I definitely need to throw into the mix. Even though hes tall and has good reach. Id say his overhead is mediocre at best. Id give him 8.5/10 for drop volleys, 7/10 for deep volleys and 6/10 for his overhead.

Im thinking if I do give him a return that allows him to drop volley, that I should run straight in to cover the drop volley. When slicing a groundstroke in reply to a short ball, hes very good at seeing me coming forward in his periphery and pushing the ball deeo at the last minute. Do you think this would be harder for him to do when hes volleying? I know its more or less the same skill.

 

[HuusHould]

I normally stand 10 feet behind to forward of the baseline depending on the server. I see lots of ATP players stand much further back than that and I can do that but I'm not used to the timing and distance on the return to hit the return. Still, it works for a lot of pros. But it would take some practice to be able to stand in radically different places.

Thats true and after a total hip replacement about 9 months ago, Im probably not up to covering the amount of court required when you stand more than a couple of feet behind the baseline.
But I think standing back might make lobbing easier/more effective, what do you think?

 

[HuusHould]

Yes. You could also work on an approach from 3 or 4 feet back.

So stand further back, move forward to return and keep going in toward the net?

 

[HuusHould]

I normally stand 10 feet behind to forward of the baseline depending on the server.

So obviously this is dependant on the servers 1) average pace of serve, and 2) ability to hurt you with angled serves, eg the slider and kicker?

The guy Im refering to doesnt have a huge serve and doesnt have a great ability to break the serve in order to generate wide angled serves.

I try to block the return early (and low) from on/just inside the baseline and end up just popping it up around shoulder height on the incoming netrusher.

So I think what @CAREDDINGTON is saying might be right (to stand further back). But that goes against old school conventional wisdom of taking their time (to close in on the net) away by standing forward.

 

[movdqa]

Funny you should mention this, he has what I consider the "mother of all powerful racquets" the Babolat pure drive!
I actually think I give him too nuch time and dont make him move enough. I guess a drop volley is similar to a drop shot insofar as the way to combat it goes. Its generally easier to drop shot in reply to slow balls that you dont have to stretch for. But hitting at pace near the lines combines two factors that can lead to unforced errors. So I feel I need to mix it up.



Youve given a couple of good examples. I guess I just need to brainstorm all the possible types of return he might not like.
I think lobbing is somwthing I definitely need to throw into the mix. Even though hes tall and has good reach. Id say his overhead is mediocre at best. Id give him 8.5/10 for drop volleys, 7/10 for deep volleys and 6/10 for his overhead.

Im thinking if I do give him a return that allows him to drop volley, that I should run straight in to cover the drop volley. When slicing a groundstroke in reply to a short ball, hes very good at seeing me coming forward in his periphery and pushing the ball deeo at the last minute. Do you think this would be harder for him to do when hes volleying? I know its more or less the same skill.

Tennis is a dynamic sport and players that think about it change their tactics against people they play on a regular basis. So you may find a weakness and then exploit it but the other player will work to fix it or avoid the situation down the road. We got to see this over a very long time between Nadal, Federer and Djokovic as they changed their tactics, strategies, racquets, etc. over the years.

I think that the lob is fine; ideally if the top of the arc is as close as possible to the baseline to make it harder to hit an overhead from the forecourt. It's also good when he's staring into the sun or when it is windy out.

What I find on players is that if you start anticipating the drop shot, they will then toss in a deep ball. ATP players typically stand inside the baseline to anticipate a drop shot so that they have the time to move back if it's a deep approach.

 

[movdqa]

Thats true and after a total hip replacement about 9 months ago, Im probably not up to covering the amount of court required when you stand more than a couple of feet behind the baseline.
But I think standing back might make lobbing easier/more effective, what do you think?

I only do that when I'm facing someone that hits bullets where I'm likely going to lose the point anyways from my usual stance. I have to adjust the timing on the fly and that often doesn't work well. If someone is having a great serving day, then you just wind up losing a lot of points.

 

[movdqa]

So obviously this is dependant on the servers 1) average pace of serve, and 2) ability to hurt you with angled serves, eg the slider and kicker?

The guy Im refering to doesnt have a huge serve and doesnt have a great ability to break the serve in order to generate wide angled serves.

I try to block the return early (and low) from on/just inside the baseline and end up just popping it up around shoulder height on the incoming netrusher.

If the person hits consistent serves out wide, then I stand inside the baseline. If they can mix up a flat bomb than it's really hard unless you can read their serve really well.

Playing people with a good flat bomb and also good wide serves is difficult and you can see this at the ATP level too. I think that the ATP players guess against good servers and, if they guess wrong, then they get aced but that approach apparently works better than trying to go for the ball without some guess as to where it will go.

 

[HuusHould]

I think that the lob is fine; ideally if the top of the arc is as close as possible to the baseline to make it harder to hit an overhead from the forecourt. It's also good when he's staring into the sun or when it is windy out.

Youre right I should consider the position of the sun. Try to warm up down the sunny end and work out where the "blindspot" is, of course it changes.
Very interesting point about the apex as close as possible to the baseline. That would be easiest to do with a defensive slice lob? I would also think that this would be easier to achieve (without hitting the return long) from a return position thats further back?


I think its also important to vary the direction of the lob.

 

[CAREDDINGTON]

So stand further back, move forward to return and keep going in toward the net?

Yes, stand further back. I mean move forward in reference to your positioning to the baseline. If you start 2 feet off the baseline, and approach for serve with momentum, you should make contact about 6 inches to a foot in front of the baseline. I am not referring to Federer's run up to the service box, backhand hit and/or finish with volley.

 

[HuusHould]

What I find on players is that if you start anticipating the drop shot, they will then toss in a deep ball. ATP players typically stand inside the baseline to anticipate a drop shot so that they have the time to move back if it's a deep approach.

I think in both situations (responding to a drop shot or volley) you have a better chance of covering both a deep and short incoming ball if you move forward and just lunge for the ball if they hit deep.
I find myself not getting a racquet to the ball before it bounces twice, responding to a drop (slightly angled) fh volley from my opponent, that they hit from shoulder height. If I just react as soon as I know what's coming. I feel like the shot he's hit isn't good enough, that that should happen .

 

[HuusHould]

Yes, stand further back. I mean move forward in reference to your positioning to the baseline. If you start 2 feet off the baseline, and approach for serve with momentum, you should make contact about 6 inches to a foot in front of the baseline. I am not referring to Federer's run up to the service box, backhand hit and/or finish with volley.

That makes sense now. Forward momentum. But no SABR!

 

[CAREDDINGTON]

So obviously this is dependant on the servers 1) average pace of serve, and 2) ability to hurt you with angled serves, eg the slider and kicker?

The guy Im refering to doesnt have a huge serve and doesnt have a great ability to break the serve in order to generate wide angled serves.

I try to block the return early (and low) from on/just inside the baseline and end up just popping it up around shoulder height on the incoming netrusher.

So I think what @CAREDDINGTON is saying might be right (to stand further back). But that goes against old school conventional wisdom of taking their time (to close in on the net) away by standing forward.

If the OP doesn't have the ability to place the serve, and the service positioning is consistently body shots, pick a side from where the serves come(bh/fh), take a step back and approach with some momentum. Even if it is not tpsn it will drive OP deep.

 

[movdqa]

Youre right I should consider the position of the sun. Try to warm up down the sunny end and work out where the "blindspot" is, of course it changes.
Very interesting point about the apex as close as possible to the baseline. That would be easiest to do with a defensive slice lob? I would also think that this would be easier to achieve (without hitting the return long) from a return position thats further back?


I think its also important to vary the direction of the lob.

The best is to hit a topspin lob but this is usually difficult to do on a tough serve.

It is good to vary the lob. Players often are better on one side or the other. If you hit it to their backhand, then they have to backpeddle to get behind the apex and not everyone is good at this. If going to the forehand corner, they may have to run further depending on their service position and may decide to hit a high forehand instead of attempting an overhead.

 

[CAREDDINGTON]

The best is to hit a topspin lob but this is usually difficult to do on a tough serve.

It is good to vary the lob. Players often are better on one side or the other. If you hit it to their backhand, then they have to backpeddle to get behind the apex and not everyone is good at this. If going to the forehand corner, they may have to run further depending on their service position and may decide to hit a high forehand instead of attempting an overhead.

Hitting a tpsn lob from a serve is a terrible idea for an average rec. player. For one some rec. players can't hit a real tpsn lob, causing a shallow ball. And two you would have to take the ball extremely early on a serve with medium pace, much less perfecting the timing on hitting a tpsn lob for one with little to no pace.

 

[HuusHould]

The best is to hit a topspin lob but this is usually difficult to do on a tough serve.

Yeah while he doesnt have a huge serve, synthetic grass is a fast surface. If Im cramped Ill sometimes lob with sidespin.

It is good to vary the lob. Players often are better on one side or the other. If you hit it to their backhand, then they have to backpeddle to get behind the apex and not everyone is good at this. If going to the forehand corner, they may have to run further depending on their service position and may decide to hit a high forehand instead of attempting an overhead.

Ill pay attention to his service position. Apparently its natural to fall a bit to your bh side after landing on serve as well.

 

[HuusHould]

Hitting a tpsn lob from a serve is a terrible idea for an average rec. player. For one some rec. players can't hit a real tpsn lob, causing a shallow ball. And two you would have to take the ball extremely early on a serve with medium pace, much less perfecting the timing on hitting a tpsn lob for one with little to no pace.

I think it would be tough to pull off, but @movdqa acknowledged that its ideal (if youre good enough). But I think itll be a change up when confident. Its only really going to be a block roll of topspin (not heavy) and unlikely to be out of reach for the server, but might throw his timing a bit. I think at least 8/10 lobs will be slice blocks, with the lob wedge!

 

[CAREDDINGTON]

I think it would be tough to pull off, but @movdqa acknowledged that its ideal (if youre good enough). But I think itll be a change up when confident.

Well I never said it couldn't be done, but for the average rec. player it's something that winds up generating a short ball. Unless the OP is a serve and volleyer why would you want to hit a topspin lob? They are already at the baseline. They take it early(correct and only way to take a real tpsn lob) and drive it deep you are in the same position you tried to put them in....Hit it incorrectly they come to the net and put it away.

 

[CAREDDINGTON]

*clip* . Apparently its natural to fall a bit to your bh side after landing on serve as well.

In what context are you saying this? From a regular service stance?

 

[HuusHould]

In what context are you saying this? From a regular service stance?

As far as I was aware its any stance, presumably because most serves the follow through finishes over on the servers bh side!?

 

[CAREDDINGTON]

As far as I was aware its any stance, presumably because most serves the follow through finishes over on the servers bh side!?

No? Your momentum is not going from the right-side to the left-side. Your momentum is being transferred from your base(center of gravity) out and up into the ball. Your finish is just to the left of your body. If your primary leverage load and momentum is being transferred to your lower right-side after contact you are 100% arming the swing. That is usually why righty pinpointers land on their right foot or in an open-stance because of forward momentum jumping out.

 

[HuusHould]

Well I never said it couldn't be done, but for the average rec. player it's something that winds up generating a short ball. Unless the OP is a serve and volleyer why would you want to hit a topspin lob? They are already at the baseline. They take it early(correct and only way to take a real tpsn lob) and drive it deep you are in the same position you tried to put them in....Hit it incorrectly they come to the net and put it away.

I agree its not a good idea and almost impossible to pull off on a 1st serve. I wasnt saying you were saying it was impossible either, just acknowledging that @movdqa wasnt necessarily advocating it.
Thats right , this whole thread is about how to deal with the serve and volleyer in question.

 

[CAREDDINGTON]

I agree its not a good idea and almost impossible to pull off on a 1st serve. I wasnt saying you were saying it was impossible either, just acknowledging that @movdqa wasnt necessarily advocating it.
Thats right , this whole thread is about how to deal with the serve and volleyer in question.

I see, sorry about my ignorance. What I do with s&v's is drive the ball deep to their backhand side or sometimes take it dtl. Really depends on the level you play at.

 

[HuusHould]

I see, sorry about my ignorance. What I do with s&v's is drive the ball deep to their backhand side or sometimes take it dtl. Really depends on the level you play at.

No worries. Brad Gilbert says go x court in winning ugly. But I agree with dtl, they just seem to sit on x court and it gives them more time to close. Although x court gives you a bit more space to dip it low.
I guess at the end of the day "mixing it up" is very important. I mean nothings easier than blocking back a 1st serve (under 200 km/h) when you know the exact speed and what wing its coming to. A well disguised off paced slider can cause the blocker to drop their return short (after all they were expecting more pace). I think the same principle applies to the incoming net player.

 

[CAREDDINGTON]

I tend to play with many different strategies. Sometimes I will play strategically if they have a chance, others I will break down their strength first.