Pat Cash: Djokovic is better than Federer at his best

5555

Hall of Fame
Link http://www.metro.co.uk/sport/879710...he-greatest-tennis-players-ever-says-pat-cash
Cash even believes the Serbian has proved himself to be better than Roger Federer at his best.

Djokovic has certainly had the most incredible of years, capturing three of the four grand slams, and securing the year-ending world No.1 spot.

And Cash would not be surprised if he rounds off a breathtaking year in style at the Barclays ATP World Tour Finals in the capital.

With 64 victories and just three losses for Djokovic during 2011, Cash said: ‘I don’t think many people saw it coming.

‘Novak has been phenomenal, winning the Australian Open, Wimbledon and the US Open and getting to the semis at Roland Garros.

‘That puts him right up there alongside the best who have ever played. I feel Djokovic is better than Federer in his prime because he has greater opposition.

‘[Andy] Murray and [Rafael] Nadal are also in great form and Juan Martin del Potro and others are always dangerous. There is more depth to the game at the moment and that gives Djokovic the edge in my opinion.’
 

Clay lover

Legend
That is possible but I am not a person who likes prime vs prime comparisons. As we all know, success seldom comes from having a best prime but from how you maintain your prime.

If Djokovic goes on to achieve more than Fed, by the he would be a better player than Fed.
 

rossi46

Professional
Pat Cash is a f###in clown. Del Potro hasn't been dangerous since 2009, Murray loses big matches against the top dogs before a ball has been hit, and he forgot to mention that despite Federer being over the hill he still managed to beat Djokovic at the French.
 
1

1970CRBase

Guest
Actually, I am not interested in Pat Cash's view of anything related to tennis. I am more interested in what he thinks of a has-been who got lucky at one major event in his life and won it because he didn't have to play Boris Becker that year and even more fortunate that Ivan Lendl played well enough for one grass court match to beat Edberg, but whose worst game is grass; never hit it big again thereafter, and ever since he retired can only make a little noise for himself by continually uttering the names of people (Fed, Graf, Nad,Djok etc) far more accomplished than he could ever dream of being.

Djok's best reply, from a PR standpoint, is to either ignore this person or adopt the Nadal Defence (If someone says I am better than Roger, ......)
 
Cash can compare results if he wants, but the thing is if prime Federer and prime Djokovic were playing against each other Federer would win all their meetings at RG, Wim and US Open (and MAYBE the Australian Open too). Because look at what a 30-year-old is doing to prime Djokovic.....
 

tata

Hall of Fame
I do not see the djoker having the same aura as fed once did. Back in the old days people felt like they lost before they even got on the court against fed. People used to call fed 'invincible', yet we do not hold that same view against djoker despite his impressive season. The way i see it is if a post prime fed has one of the best shots in beating a prime djoker (and has done so fairly since the 2 other matches lost were from retirement), prime fed > prime novak.
 

DragonBlaze

Hall of Fame
so72oo.gif

LOL well played CMM.

In all seriousness one can actually make a case for Djokovic being better than Fed at AO and perhaps IW, Miami, Rome.

Unfortunately for Djoker, after what's gone down this year, that's where it stops. For some reason Djoker has underperformed at RG and Fed's shown he is more than capable of taking him on there.

Then, Wimbledon onwards it's Federer with the edge all the way till the year end. I mean is anybody really going to say Djokovic of 2011 will more often than not beat Fed of 2003-2007 (heck even 08 and 09) on grass? Or 2004-09 at US Open after what happened this year? I mean you could try and make the case I suppose, it would just be a weak one.

Just to make myself clear, I am NOT talking about who has had the more dominant year, for that you could very well make the case for Djoker 2011. I won't agree personally as of yet (he still has to win WTF in my eyes to be clearly ahead of Fed 06). I'm talking about level of play, so ofcourse my analysis is completely subjective and just my opinion.
 
A lot of pressure now on Cash, because its pretty obvious Federer will beat Djokovic again in slams. That would make Cash look mighty silly, if he doesn't look silly enough already, given that old man Federer beat prime Djokovic at RG 2011, and almost again at the US Open.
 

Telepatic

Legend
Cash can compare results if he wants, but the thing is if prime Federer and prime Djokovic were playing against each other Federer would win all their meetings at RG, Wim and US Open (and MAYBE the Australian Open too). Because look at what a 30-year-old is doing to prime Djokovic.....

Be quiet Trollzilla, that same Fed in his prime days was losing from both Nadal and Djokovic, anyone can lose anytime.
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
The same Cash who predicted Federer won't win a single Wimbledon?

Well Cash himself is the biggest joke of a slam champion, I'll give him that.
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Still just the fact that prime Federer handled pre-prime Djokovic pretty well, won 4 of the first 5 slam meetings (losing only one set in those wins), with the only loss in the AO 08 when Fed was struggling with mono + Fed at 30 beat peak Djokovic at the French Open and should've beaten him 2 more times at the US Open in 2010 and 2011 helding double match points on both occasions tells me that NO, PRIME DJOKOVIC IS NOT BETTER THAN PRIME FEDERER
 

Telepatic

Legend
Trollzilla? Although Djokovic never beat prime Federer. In a slam. Unless you consider 2008 to be prime Federer....

I consider peak Fed was struggling with him in their first match in Monaco all the way back in 2006 along with their USO 07 match, and he lost Montreal final in 2007 as well, 2008 Fed was also peak like it or not (I don't fall for mono crap, you don't play grand slam semifinals with serious sickness, he played, he lost).

Besides, what's the point of making hypothesis what would prime Fed do with prime Djoko or prime Nadal? It's all about match ups and who's having a better day as they are all good players.

Pat is just saying that Nole had a better year then peak Fed ever had achievement wise due to stronger competition (which includes Fed himself and could be even taken as a compliment to him).There's no talking about whether Fed is better or worse player then Novak or whether he would beat him from his best days or no.
 
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Caesar

Banned
Cash talks a lot of crap. I think I remember him in the late 90s announcing that Philippoussis was a more dangerous player than Sampras.
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
Cash talks a lot of crap. I think I remember him in the late 90s announcing that Philippoussis was a more dangerous player than Sampras.

Philippoussis was giving Sampras a lot of trouble at one point, beating him twice in a row I believe. Then he hurt his knee and never really came back as strong and started to gain weight which put even more pressure on his knees.

As far as the prime Nole vs prime Federer vs prime Nadal argument: I feel the level of play was lower this year overall. Peak play in the most recent era was probalby late 2007 thru early 2009 IMO; Federer was finally starting to get some competition in the slams besides the French Open. The overall competition level has sinced dropped every year, with this year being the lowest in the last 4 years. Not that the level is low, but just lower.
 

TennisLovaLova

Hall of Fame
Cash just switched from Acid to Crystal Meth after watching Breaking Bad. He should not be allowed to give his opinion when he's that high.

30 y old Federer beat Prime Djokovic at RG, and almost at USO this year. + Prime Fed would destroy Prime Djokovic and Prime "I'm in Heaven with angels and I enjoy my Dreams" Pat Cash any time any place any surface even with a ping pong racquet
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
Cash can compare results if he wants, but the thing is if prime Federer and prime Djokovic were playing against each other Federer would win all their meetings at RG, Wim and US Open (and MAYBE the Australian Open too). Because look at what a 30-year-old is doing to prime Djokovic.....

I do not see the djoker having the same aura as fed once did. Back in the old days people felt like they lost before they even got on the court against fed. People used to call fed 'invincible', yet we do not hold that same view against djoker despite his impressive season. The way i see it is if a post prime fed has one of the best shots in beating a prime djoker (and has done so fairly since the 2 other matches lost were from retirement), prime fed > prime novak.

Still just the fact that prime Federer handled pre-prime Djokovic pretty well, won 4 of the first 5 slam meetings (losing only one set in those wins), with the only loss in the AO 08 when Fed was struggling with mono + Fed at 30 beat peak Djokovic at the French Open and should've beaten him 2 more times at the US Open in 2010 and 2011 helding double match points on both occasions tells me that NO, PRIME DJOKOVIC IS NOT BETTER THAN PRIME FEDERER

Yes but you're talking about a single specific match-up here, even if we presume 25 year old Fed would have had edge over Novak at 3 of the 4 slams, 24 year old Novak still handled Nadal in the way even the best version of Fed never could, tennis is a game of match-ups which is why you look at a player's overall dominance and results against the field. Nadal fans were making that mistake all these years and now Fed some Fed fans seem to fall in the same trap due to 30 year old Fed giving peak Novak a pretty hard time. I don't agree with that view.

What my issue with Cash here is that I feel he has it in for Fed personally(due to his cheap shots at even Mirka dating way back in 2004) and that I view player's "prime" period of tennis completely different. In my personal opinion Fed's prime was 2003-2009 and his peak was 2004-2007 so if we're talking about prime here, for me when it comes to Fed we're talking about a period of a 7 years here and comparing it to one single Novak's amazing year, that comparison makes no sense in my mind.

In short I don't consider player's prime to consist of one year so Novak has not qualified for comparison yet.

Regarding who is better at his/her best, that argument is a different matter and is almost entirely subjective, you'll have a number of people claiming players like Rios and Nalbandian are unstoppable on their best day, not to mention the legend about Safin.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
As far as the prime Nole vs prime Federer vs prime Nadal argument: I feel the level of play was lower this year overall. Peak play in the most recent era was probalby late 2007 thru early 2009 IMO; Federer was finally starting to get some competition in the slams besides the French Open. The overall competition level has sinced dropped every year, with this year being the lowest in the last 4 years. Not that the level is low, but just lower.

I know, I know, I personally feel the level of play was lower overall in mid 2008 and early 2009 with 2010 being the lowest in the last 4 years no doubt (not that I think the level was low in 2010 but just simply lower).

Seems peak Nadal finally started to get some competition other than declining married old man with 2 kids.
 

Cup8489

G.O.A.T.
Pat Cash is just mad that he's been wrong about Federer so many times, he has to take potshots for his own ridiculously swelled ego. Let him talk, it doesn't make him right.
 

5555

Hall of Fame
Pat Cash is just mad that he's been wrong about Federer so many times, he has to take potshots for his own ridiculously swelled ego. Let him talk, it doesn't make him right.
Is your claim that what Cash said isn't what he really believes? If so, have you got proof for that claim?
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Pat Cash is just mad that he's been wrong about Federer so many times, he has to take potshots for his own ridiculously swelled ego. Let him talk, it doesn't make him right.

He'll probably have a better shot at getting something right when Federer approaches the end of his career. Some of his comments way back in mid 00's or earlier were just plain ridiculous.
 
N

NadalAgassi

Guest
I agree. Djokovic of 2011 dominated all main rivals at the time, which Federer of 2004-2006 proved not nearly good enough to do with a 3-6 head to head with Nadal. While he didnt Djokovic easily could have won the Grand Slam this year, which you cant say of Federer any year as it is clear he never had a chance in any of his French Open losses (not just to Nadal but grandpa Kuerten in 04).
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
I agree. Djokovic of 2011 dominated all main rivals at the time, which Federer of 2004-2006 proved not nearly good enough to do with a 3-6 head to head with Nadal. While he didnt Djokovic easily could have won the Grand Slam this year, which you cant say of Federer any year as it is clear he never had a chance in any of his French Open losses (not just to Nadal but grandpa Kuerten in 04).

I wonder if Djokovic would dominate the 2011 season if Federer was 25 instead of 30. He couldn't even dominate a 30-year old Fed and often got outplayed himself before Fed broke down mentally.

Btw Nadal giving Federer issues in 2004-2007 is like Djokovic facing a 5-year younger up-and-coming-all-time-great rival mostly on grass for the next 3-4 years.
 

westside

Hall of Fame
I agree. Djokovic of 2011 dominated all main rivals at the time, which Federer of 2004-2006 proved not nearly good enough to do with a 3-6 head to head with Nadal. While he didnt Djokovic easily could have won the Grand Slam this year, which you cant say of Federer any year as it is clear he never had a chance in any of his French Open losses (not just to Nadal but grandpa Kuerten in 04).

Had it not been for grandpa Federer...
 

Cup8489

G.O.A.T.
Is your claim that what Cash said isn't what he really believes? If so, have you got proof for that claim?

Not at all; I think Cash really believes what he says, but he's just very bitter towards Federer in general; I was somewhat sarcastically pointing out he could be just a jealous old man, and that this could be why he's been so bitter towards Federer; Fed had alot of positive attention even very early on, and I'm sure cash is slightly bitter in that sense; he was never really talked about himself, or so I've heard (if this is wrong, I retract this statement)

I agree. Djokovic of 2011 dominated all main rivals at the time, which Federer of 2004-2006 proved not nearly good enough to do with a 3-6 head to head with Nadal. While he didnt Djokovic easily could have won the Grand Slam this year, which you cant say of Federer any year as it is clear he never had a chance in any of his French Open losses (not just to Nadal but grandpa Kuerten in 04).

I respectfully disagree. Federer had looks in both the 2006 and 2007 finals, the second in particular. Likewise, Djokovic didn't make the finals of the French this year, whereas Federer did it in both 2006 and 2007. While it's not hard to assume Djokovic would have beaten Nadal in the finals, we can only speculate on that; But the fact is, Nadal was the only man to trouble Federer in 2006, and it has been attributed to Nadal being almost the perfect matchup to Federer. You can only do so much when a guy's entire game is built around negating your strengths, and when you have to play him the majority of the matches on his strongest surface.

That being said, I feel that Federer being in more finals and all major finals in 2006 puts him above Djokovic, and that at least one, perhaps more of those finals he lost he had chances of winning; This is all speculation on both sides: We can't rewrite the past, and as it stands Djokovic failed to reach the FO final just As Federer failed to defeat Nadal in Rome, RG Dubai and... Monte Carlo? Idr if they played in Hamburg but I think not.
 
N

NadalAgassi

Guest
I wonder if Djokovic would dominate the 2011 season if Federer was 25 instead of 30.

We will never know but what we do know is that Djokovic dominated everyone who was present this year, including completely dominating Nadal who even prime Federer had mighty problems against and always trailed in head to head (not just being dominated on clay but losing on other surfaces too even back when Nadal was a hard court mug). Facts are always better than speculation, as Federer fans are always the first to remind when defending his own competition vs past greats.

He couldn't even dominate a 30-year old Fed and often got outplayed himself before Fed broke down mentally.

4-1 is domination.

Btw Nadal giving Federer issues in 2004-2007 is like Djokovic facing a 5-year younger up-and-coming-all-time-great rival mostly on grass for the next 3-4 years.

OK so if Djokovic in the coming years loses every match to Bernard Tomic or Milos Raonic on grass and half his matches to Tomic or Raonic on say clay, let me know.
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
I know, I know, I personally feel the level of play was lower overall in mid 2008 and early 2009 with 2010 being the lowest in the last 4 years no doubt (not that I think the level was low in 2010 but just simply lower).

Seems peak Nadal finally started to get some competition other than declining married old man with 2 kids.

Passive agressive and sarcastic! You must be a delight to have a real conversation with...
 
N

NadalAgassi

Guest
I respectfully disagree. Federer had looks in both the 2006 and 2007 finals, the second in particular. Likewise, Djokovic didn't make the finals of the French this year, whereas Federer did it in both 2006 and 2007. While it's not hard to assume Djokovic would have beaten Nadal in the finals, we can only speculate on that; But the fact is, Nadal was the only man to trouble Federer in 2006, and it has been attributed to Nadal being almost the perfect matchup to Federer. You can only do so much when a guy's entire game is built around negating your strengths, and when you have to play him the majority of the matches on his strongest surface.

That being said, I feel that Federer being in more finals and all major finals in 2006 puts him above Djokovic, and that at least one, perhaps more of those finals he lost he had chances of winning; This is all speculation on both sides: We can't rewrite the past, and as it stands Djokovic failed to reach the FO final just As Federer failed to defeat Nadal in Rome, RG Dubai and... Monte Carlo? Idr if they played in Hamburg but I think not.

It really depends on how Djokovic ends the year. If he wins Paris and the WTF his year will be considered by most everyone the best in the Open Era on paper. If he doesnt win the WTF then most will probably consider McEnroe's 84 and Federer's 06 better. Making all 4 slam finals is an edge for sure, but it doesnt overcome the combination of more losses, a shorter winning streak, fewer Masters titles, and perhaps the biggest one- not winning a single clay tournament all year (with a fairly substantial clay court season).

That is different from the quality of play which is subjective to each. I usually favor someone who showed they could dominate all their main competition though, which is why I rate Serena's 02-03 standard of play higher than Seles's 91-92 as well (when even as dominant #1 went 1-3 vs Graf and lost a slam final 6-2, 6-1). Yes Nadal is a bad matchup for Federer, as Graf was for Seles, but the greatest players can be expected or atleast hoped to overcome it, which is what Djokovic did this year after past years of being dominated by both Federer and Nadal.
 
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I don't believe in subjective assessments leading to truth. All that matters is the data. So far the data indicate we have to wait. If Djoker does not go lossless for the rest of the season then it cannot be said he was better than Federer. Having said that, subjectively speaking, I have to disagree with Cash, Federer looked better in terms of level of play, meaningless as that is.
 

chrischris

G.O.A.T.
Im not following bro. What now?

I was just being a bit silly and sarcastic. cash isnt really king anymore as we have been printing and giving money away to mismanagement failures for a while now and it looks like a trend to many. this spells inflation.



Back to the topic of the thread:

Imo Fed is a better player than Nole when all cylinders are firing .
 

Tony48

Legend
Cash can compare results if he wants, but the thing is if prime Federer and prime Djokovic were playing against each other Federer would win all their meetings at RG, Wim and US Open (and MAYBE the Australian Open too). Because look at what a 30-year-old is doing to prime Djokovic.....

Aww....BULLZ1LLA's favorite word. "If"....and then goes on to talk about it like it actually happened.
 

mandy01

G.O.A.T.
I don't think Pat Cash likes Roger after the 2004 incident when he tried to run his mouth off as usual and Mirka put him in his place.
And no, we have no objective parameters of determining who's best is better. Djokovic had one good season. Roger's had four such seasons. At 30, his game is still giving Djokovic fits.
BTW-His argument is beyond pointless. Roger has beaten Murray everytime its counted most, despite being past his very best. He still holds a winning record over DP and Nadal has been around since 2005.
 

Tony48

Legend
I don't believe in subjective assessments leading to truth. All that matters is the data. So far the data indicate we have to wait. If Djoker does not go lossless for the rest of the season then it cannot be said he was better than Federer. Having said that, subjectively speaking, I have to disagree with Cash, Federer looked better in terms of level of play, meaningless as that is.

If Djokovic accumulates more points than Federer did then he will certainly have had a better year. Numbers are not subjective.
 

mandy01

G.O.A.T.
I know, I know, I personally feel the level of play was lower overall in mid 2008 and early 2009 with 2010 being the lowest in the last 4 years no doubt (not that I think the level was low in 2010 but just simply lower).

Seems peak Nadal finally started to get some competition other than declining married old man with 2 kids.
I just don't know what to say to this. HAHAHA! LOOOOOOOOOL! Hilarious stuff zagor :lol:
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
As far as the prime Nole vs prime Federer vs prime Nadal argument: I feel the level of play was lower this year overall. Peak play in the most recent era was probalby late 2007 thru early 2009 IMO; Federer was finally starting to get some competition in the slams besides the French Open. The overall competition level has sinced dropped every year, with this year being the lowest in the last 4 years. Not that the level is low, but just lower.

I know, I know, I personally feel the level of play was lower overall in mid 2008 and early 2009 with 2010 being the lowest in the last 4 years no doubt (not that I think the level was low in 2010 but just simply lower).

Seems peak Nadal finally started to get some competition other than declining married old man with 2 kids.

LOL :)

10 chars !
 

rafan

Hall of Fame
Pat Who? Djokovic will never last as long as Federer he hasn't got the stamina for long distance. It has taken him all this time to stoke up and get going while Fed and Rafa have been playing the most exciting matches we have seen for a long time. Djoko has always been an excellent player but now he is learning the true meaning of what being number one is all about and at times it can be painful
 

Cup8489

G.O.A.T.
Anyone else find it unusual that Nadal Fans are now blowing Federer's horn and claiming him better than Djokovic..when many were out to say that Federer was weak and not worthy of GOAT because he couldn't beat Rafa?

Could it be bc of Nadal being owned this year by Djokovic.

How strange... just absentmindedly commenting on this.
 
Anyone else find it unusual that Nadal Fans are now blowing Federer's horn and claiming him better than Djokovic..when many were out to say that Federer was weak and not worthy of GOAT because he couldn't beat Rafa?

Could it be bc of Nadal being owned this year by Djokovic.

How strange... just absentmindedly commenting on this.

And you fully agree with Pat Cash....
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
Is there anyone more obtuse than DRII?

Be careful, or you might get banned again!

If some of you morons (i.e. newly minted Nole fans who are really schizophrenic Nadal haters) had any discernment at all, you would realize that i placed Nadal's best year (in terms of numbers which was 2010) as lower, in overall level of play and competition, than 2009 or 2008! But higher than 2011!

You all's insecurity is becoming ridiculous!
 
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