Pat Cash: Djokovic is better than Federer at his best

Ripster

Hall of Fame
Already with Federer winning 3 Slams + reaching a final and winning the WTF without losing a single match makes the comparison very debatable since Djokovic has failed to reach all 4 major finals this year and we still don't know if he's going to win the WTF too.

This is how both seasons match up:

3 majors + final > 3 majors + semi (this won't change)
12 titles (17 finals total) > 10 titles (11 finals total) - that's why I said Djokovic has to win all 3 events to surpass Fed in total titles won, even if he wins Basel and Paris, case is closed if he fails to win WTF
94,8 < 95,5 % matches won that could easily change if Djokovic loses 1 more match this year, still the stats are so close I don't think it matters if it's a 0,5 % or less difference one way or the other
4 MS titles (6 finals total) < 5 MS (6 finals total), bear in mind that Fed also skipped Hamburg and Paris, there were best of 5 set finals and no byes in the 1st round for top seeds which probably cost Fed Cincinnati (he was scattered against Murray)

You act like the first two criteria are so important (and yet Basel is included) and yet the categories that Djokovic has doesn't matter one way or another. Masters matter, and I'd argue that having more masters is just as important as a slam final vs. a slam semi some might think it's a better achievement actually.

Bear in mind that Djokovic skipped Shanghai and the whole Asian swing which would have likely increased his title count and or masters count. Also, it's incredibly hard to win Toronto and Cincy back to back since both Federer and Djokovic both gassed before winning the title, but at least Djokovic made the final before gassing instead of losing to an inexperienced pre-prime Murray in the first round.
 

All-rounder

Legend
Mono not an issue?? I'm not gonna write an essay debating this so I'll ignore that point.

What? When did Nadal ever straight set Djoker 2.0? Would you think Hrbarty would beat Nadal today?
OK then, do you care to explain how mono prevented Federer from making the final of RG Wimbledon and winning the US open???? Oh wait :roll:...
 
I suggest you watch the 2008 French Open again sometime. It will immediately become obvious how much better Nadal's serve and mobility is compared to today.

I just watched it today. It immediately became obvious that Nadal would not have a chance in hell against Djoker 2.0. It's just tennis on a different plane.
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
LOL playing crap and he wins FO2011. I bet Nadal would vehemently disagree with you at your use of the 'crap' characterization.

Actually no, Nadal and Tony both went on and on the entire clay season and FO in particular about how bad his game was. Tony even said he might as well go home.
 
C

celoft

Guest
Masters matter, and I'd argue that having more masters is just as important as a slam final vs. a slam semi some might think it's a better achievement actually.

Nope.

Reaching all 4 slam finals in the same calendar year is harder.
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
You act like the first two criteria are so important (and yet Basel is included) and yet the categories that Djokovic has doesn't matter one way or another. Masters matter, and I'd argue that having more masters is just as important as a slam final vs. a slam semi some might think it's a better achievement actually.

Bear in mind that Djokovic skipped Shanghai and the whole Asian swing which would have likely increased his title count and or masters count. Also, it's incredibly hard to win Toronto and Cincy back to back since both Federer and Djokovic both gassed before winning the title, but at least Djokovic made the final before gassing instead of losing to an inexperienced pre-prime Murray in the first round.

1)As I said Federer skipped both Hamburg and Paris in 2006, he would be the heavy favorite for Paris if he decided to play and it would be a 50/50 call against Nadal in Hamburg since Fed has done well there, even against Rafa. Also winning Masters titles wasn't as easy in 06 since you could have a 5-set final + there were no byes in the 1st round which left the finalists tired for the next tournament unlike now.

2) If you actually watched matches before 2011 you'd know the circumstances in which Federer lost to Murray. The guy played 5 consecutive 3-set matches 5 days IN A ROW and was exhausted, you could even tell from the higlights but they don't tell the full story
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzLlt_HDiXg
 
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Actually no, Nadal and Tony both went on and on the entire clay season and FO in particular about how bad his game was. Tony even said he might as well go home.

That's not what Nadal said. Nadal said he did very well this year, much more consistent than even last year. Djoker was just better at the big moments. Think about it dude, without Djoker, Nadal2011 >> Nadal 2010. The data never lie.
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
Federer has never won any of the fall Masters events. There is no reason to assume he was a lock to win Paris if he played. Anyway it is meaningless, since he didnt play. As for Hamburg, Nadal is the heavy favorite to win any clay court event he entered in that period. Beating Nadal there once (when he was clearly gassed since we are choosing to go into subjective territory anyway now) does not give him 50/50 odds to beat Nadal there.

Djokovic skipped Monte Carlo this year. Would he have won there. Better chance than Federer winning Hamburg, since it is clear Djokovic of 2011 is a much bigger threat to Nadal on clay than Federer 2006 was. Would Djokovic have won Shanghai if he had been able to play, atleast the same odds of Federer winning Paris 2006 probably. You can do just as many what ifs to try and bolster Djokovic as you can Federer.

In the end Djokovic has already done better in the Masters this year than Federer did in 2006, and the only way that might change is if he lost both Paris and the WTF. Djokovic has won every Masters he has played, has already won a record # with 5, has a mix of multiple hard court and multiple clay court Masters titles, and the only one he didnt win he lost in the final. Compared to Federer, winning 4 of 7 played, not winning a clay Masters, and losing 1st round of another, there is no comparision whatsoever.
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
That's not what Nadal said. Nadal said he did very well this year, much more consistent than even last year. Djoker was just better at the big moments. Think about it dude, without Djoker, Nadal2011 >> Nadal 2010. The data never lie.

I wouldn't go as far as Nadal2011> Nadal2010 on clay if we take out Djokovic but resultwise it would be = with Nadal sweeping both clay seasons, there would also be no talk whatsover about any decline which is bull****
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
I wouldn't go as far as Nadal2011> Nadal2010 on clay if we take out Djokovic but resultwise it would be = with Nadal sweeping both clay seasons, there would also be no talk whatsover about any decline which is bull****

It is funny you are the one who says that since you have used Nadal's decline on clay (and YOU are the one who has claimed repeatedly Nadal of 2011 is far below even teenage Nadal of 2005/2006 on clay, never mind 2008 or 2010 Nadal on clay) to try and diminish Djokovic's success against Nadal there in comparision to Federer. Your arguments twist and turn depending on what suits what you want at the time.
 
Federer has never won any of the fall Masters events. There is no reason to assume he was a lock to win Paris if he played. Anyway it is meaningless, since he didnt play. As for Hamburg, Nadal is the heavy favorite to win any clay court event he entered in that period. Beating Nadal there once (when he was clearly gassed since we are choosing to go into subjective territory anyway now) does not give him 50/50 odds to beat Nadal there.

Djokovic skipped Monte Carlo this year. Would he have won there. Better chance than Federer winning Hamburg, since it is clear Djokovic of 2011 is a much bigger threat to Nadal on clay than Federer 2006 was. Would Djokovic have won Shanghai if he had been able to play, atleast the same odds of Federer winning Paris 2006 probably. You can do just as many what ifs to try and bolster Djokovic as you can Federer.

In the end Djokovic has already done better in the Masters this year than Federer did in 2006, and the only way that might change is if he lost both Paris and the WTF. Djokovic has won every Masters he has played, has already won a record # with 5, has a mix of multiple hard court and multiple clay court Masters titles, and the only one he didnt win he lost in the final. Compared to Federer, winning 4 of 7 played, not winning a clay Masters, and losing 1st round of another, there is no comparision whatsoever.

Isn't Cincinnati a Master's event?
 
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tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Federer has never won any of the fall Masters events. There is no reason to assume he was a lock to win Paris if he played. Anyway it is meaningless, since he didnt play. As for Hamburg, Nadal is the heavy favorite to win any clay court event he entered in that period. Beating Nadal there once (when he was clearly gassed since we are choosing to go into subjective territory anyway now) does not give him 50/50 odds to beat Nadal there.

First of all Federer won Madrid in 2006. Furthermore, I never said he was a lock to win the Paris Masters but a heavy favorite and rightly so cause the guy barely lost single matches on hard/grass courts in his prime. In fact, Federer skipped 3 Paris Masters events in a row in 04-06 so I guess he felt it wasn't worth the sacrifice of the WTF which was played a weak later at the time.

As for Hamburg/Madrid Federer actually played Nadal 5 times there and he won twice, in 2007 he won (including a bagel), 2008 (he was up 5-1 in sets 1 and 2, lost in 3 tough sets in the end), 2009 beat Nadal in Madrid 6-4 6-4, in 2010 Fed gave Nadal a tough time, Nadal won 6-4 7-6 in the end, in 2011 Fed was GOATing for a set which he won 7-5 and then faded away. Believe it or not, Hamburg (or the 3rd clay Masters event) is Fed's best MS as far as results are concerned with 5 titles and 2 finals.


Djokovic skipped Monte Carlo this year. Would he have won there. Better chance than Federer winning Hamburg, since it is clear Djokovic of 2011 is a much bigger threat to Nadal on clay than Federer 2006 was. Would Djokovic have won Shanghai if he had been able to play, atleast the same odds of Federer winning Paris 2006 probably. You can do just as many what ifs to try and bolster Djokovic as you can Federer.

Ok, so Djokovic was a lock for Monte Carlo this year but Federer wasn't in Paris in 2006? Not saying Djokovic wouldn't've beaten Nadal in Monte Carlo had they played but look - Nadal had a slip in every clay tournament he entered since 2005 except....Monte Carlo which he won don't know how many times in a row now. I know it probably wouldn't make much of a difference but Djokovic hasn't won on the slowest clay YET, both Monte Carlo and the FO (both considered to have the slowest clay) were won by Nadal this year. We'll just have to wait and see what happens next year.

I agree about the what ifs, though, it leads nowhere.

In the end Djokovic has already done better in the Masters this year than Federer did in 2006, and the only way that might change is if he lost both Paris and the WTF. Djokovic has won every Masters he has played, has already won a record # with 5, has a mix of multiple hard court and multiple clay court Masters titles, and the only one he didnt win he lost in the final. Compared to Federer, winning 4 of 7 played, not winning a clay Masters, and losing 1st round of another, there is no comparision whatsoever.

This is not true, this year or ever.

All in all, Djokovic could have an advantage in MS, agreed, but Federer having an advantage in Slams and (thus far) in the WTF (+ all the other titles and finals - case not finished though for Djokovic) makes his season better.
 
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Ripster

Hall of Fame
1)As I said Federer skipped both Hamburg and Paris in 2006, he would be the heavy favorite for Paris if he decided to play and it would be a 50/50 call against Nadal in Hamburg since Fed has done well there, even against Rafa. Also winning Masters titles wasn't as easy in 06 since you could have a 5-set final + there were no byes in the 1st round which left the finalists tired for the next tournament unlike now.

2) If you actually watched matches before 2011 you'd know the circumstances in which Federer lost to Murray. The guy played 5 consecutive 3-set matches 5 days IN A ROW and was exhausted, you could even tell from the higlights but they don't tell the full story
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzLlt_HDiXg

I've been playing and watching tennis since the mid-90s.

The what if's are getting old. Djokovic didn't play Monte Carlo or Shanghai, Federer didn't play Paris and Hamburg. And as NadalAgassi said, Djokovic's chances to win Monte Carlo were probably higher than Federer's chances in Hamburg anyway.

And I did watch that match and Federer looked just as tired as Djokovic did in the final against Murray, actually Djokovic probably looked worse. The fact that he was able to make the final is pretty remarkable.
 
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tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
I've been playing and watching tennis since the mid-90s.

The what if's are getting old. Djokovic didn't play Monte Carlo or Shanghai, Federer didn't play Paris and Hamburg. And as NadalAgassi said, Djokovic's chances to win Monte Carlo were probably higher than Federer's chances in Hamburg anyway.

And I did watch that match and Federer looked just as tired as Djokovic did in the final against Murray, actually Djokovic probably looked worse. The fact that he was able to make the final is pretty remarkable.

Still, Nadal also skipped Hamburg in 2006. Who would've stopped Federer if not Nadal?
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Fed 2006 = 0 clay titles.

Damn Federer was unlucky there was no Serbian Open back in 2006! Or he should've entered one of the South American 250 and win just to satisfy you.

We could also say that Djokovic hasn't won 10 titles on hard courts in a season, only 6. And Federer won 2 tournaments on grass instead of 1. A title's a title, who cares where you win it.
 
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Cup8489

G.O.A.T.
Oh dear.. Pat "Federer will never win Wimbledon" Cash at it again...

What is more funny is that Cash claimed Federer was out of shape prior to the 2004 AO.... :). I think he should predict publicly that Federer will lose in a major more often, seems to do Federer some good towards adding to his major-haul, :p
 

Sid_Vicious

G.O.A.T.
What is more funny is that Cash claimed Federer was out of shape prior to the 2004 AO.... :). I think he should predict publicly that Federer will lose in a major more often, seems to do Federer some good towards adding to his major-haul, :p

I think Pat Cash also said that Mirka was ruining Federer's career back in 2004.
 
T

Tough Gut

Guest
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TopFH

Hall of Fame
If Djokovic accumulates more points than Federer did then he will certainly have had a better year. Numbers are not subjective.

Well, if we had today's ranking system, Federer would have more points at the end of the year due to getting to every final minus one. Oh also, he reached the 4GS finals and won the WTF.
 
I consider peak Fed was struggling with him in their first match in Monaco all the way back in 2006 along with their USO 07 match, and he lost Montreal final in 2007 as well, 2008 Fed was also peak like it or not (I don't fall for mono crap, you don't play grand slam semifinals with serious sickness, he played, he lost).

But that's exactly what happened: he was sick and did play. Even commentators remarked at how he looked ill. I remember that match quite well. He also went to 5 against Tipsarevic, an unlikely result considering how well he played there in 2007, where he didn't drop a set.
 

Clarky21

Banned
But that's exactly what happened: he was sick and did play. Even commentators remarked at how he looked ill. I remember that match quite well. He also went to 5 against Tipsarevic, an unlikely result considering how well he played there in 2007, where he didn't drop a set.


I think he looked sick as well. I remember thinking he looked pale and just not well in the RG final in 2008. He looked like he was on the verge of barfing throughout that whole match.
 
I think he looked sick as well. I remember thinking he looked pale and just not well in the RG final in 2008. He looked like he was on the verge of barfing throughout that whole match.

I think the big factor was his sweating. He was sweating profusely and we're talking about someone we use to rarely see sweating.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
30 yrs old Fed beat peak Nole at the FO and had 2 match points at the USO. That sure doesn't indicate a prime Nole would beat prime Fed. Respectively disagree with Pat Cash. I'm not sure if he ever watched any of the slam this year.
 
30 yrs old Fed beat peak Nole at the FO and had 2 match points at the USO. That sure doesn't indicate a prime Nole would beat prime Fed. Respectively disagree with Pat Cash. I'm not sure if he ever watched any of the slam this year.

He was just looking at his Wimbledon trophy smiling after realizing he denied the man who destroyed his pretty red shoes.
 

Clarky21

Banned
I think the big factor was his sweating. He was sweating profusely and we're talking about someone we use to rarely see sweating.


Yeah,you're right. I remember how he was sweating like mad at the olympics that year as well. Roger never sweats through his clothes like that. He looked as though he had just come out of a sauna.
 

mandy01

G.O.A.T.
Yeah,you're right. I remember how he was sweating like mad at the olympics that year as well. Roger never sweats through his clothes like that. He looked as though he had just come out of a sauna.
Oh that might have been due to the weather. What mono affected most was Roger's training. He wasn't able to get a proper training block done until the end of the year I think because he skipped one in Feb and couldn't train much due to Olympics coming in later. The illness itself was over because it was a minor bout. Not Ancic-like stuff. But messed up big time with his training.
 
Oh that might have been due to the weather. What mono affected most was Roger's training. He wasn't able to get a proper training block done until the end of the year I think because he skipped one in Feb and couldn't train much due to Olympics coming in later. The illness itself was over because it was a minor bout. Not Ancic-like stuff. But messed up big time with his training.

I am not 100% sold on the weather being the cause of his heavy sweating at the 2008 AO. Federer rarely ever became visibly sweaty. I can't recall federer pre 2010 sweating in such a manner like the 2008 AO. I think he was just really sick and was pushing himself out there.
 

DragonBlaze

Hall of Fame
Oh that might have been due to the weather. What mono affected most was Roger's training. He wasn't able to get a proper training block done until the end of the year I think because he skipped one in Feb and couldn't train much due to Olympics coming in later. The illness itself was over because it was a minor bout. Not Ancic-like stuff. But messed up big time with his training.

QFT

10missedtrainingblocks
 

Tony48

Legend
30 yrs old Fed beat peak Nole at the FO and had 2 match points at the USO. That sure doesn't indicate a prime Nole would beat prime Fed. Respectively disagree with Pat Cash. I'm not sure if he ever watched any of the slam this year.

"Baby/Toddler/Infant/Diapers-wearing" Djokovic beat peak Fed in Montreal back in 2007. Get a clue.

And speaking of "oh gee, he was so close to winning", funny how everyone forgets how close Djokovic was to winning the 2007 U.S. Open. But close isn't good enough....unless you're Federer where being close is passed off as an example of winning.
 
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