RS
Bionic Poster
6-1 set lost is pretty big though right? Djokovic was clutch in 2019 though but 2014 Djokovic would probably be clutch vs 2019 Federer and tear him a new one.
Pat Cash: "Federer not even the second greatest in his own era"
- Thread starter jm1980
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NoleIsBoat
Hall of Fame
D
Deleted member 748597
Guest
That's good, sir. Educate some of these Djokovic haters.
RS
Bionic Poster
How do you rate 2015 Murray in his SF vs Federer?
canta_Brian
Hall of Fame
Care to provide an example from any time in the last 50 years? Anecdote is not data.
Nadal at 2019 Wimbledon. Lol, did you think that through?
Also I don’t think 2013 Fed ever played a 37-year old. Pete and Borg were retired by 32. This is not exactly a common matchup. Again, for that and many other reasons it’s clear you have a massive agenda behind your post.
canta_Brian
Hall of Fame
You’re making the same error in logic as so many Djokofans. You can’t use the performance of Fed as a 37 year old to build Djokovic. Either Fed is rewriting performance levels for modern players later in life and is goaty for doing so, or he is a spent force which makes Djokovic only just beating him not that big a deal.
ACE of Hearts
Bionic Poster
I would have put Federer ahead had he beaten novak in the us open in 2015 and he had beaten novak at wimbledon in 2019. He didn’t .
No, I'm not... you're making the annoying error of taking everything through a lens of the GOAT debate. Maybe not everything has to come with an agenda attached? Maybe, just maybe, the matches that are played are representative of that tournament only and don't have to have a cosmic impact in this GOAT debate lol. I never said anything about 2019 Wimbledon being that important in the way I view either player. I think you're putting words in my mouth.
And no, it doesn't have to be either or. Federer overachieved expectations and deserves credit, but does not ultimately deserve the praise befitting that of a win because he didn't convert those MPs. Djokovic was subpar for most of the match, but showed good mental strength to save MPs and it was an entertaining match. Don't think it makes him a GOAT for doing so, but he did ultimately win. Djokovic has not exactly faced stiff competition from 2018-21 anyways, if you want to go down that route. But nevertheless he undeniably has 20 Slams, just as Roger undeniably has 20.
The reason I replied in the first place was to illustrate that between true ATGs, including the grass GOAT in Federer on his favorite court, the older player can still pull out wins occasionally.
Sunny014
Legend
Federer won convincingly in that USO final vs a 34 yr old Agassi and never looked like he would lose even though the match went 5 sets.
Your hero was groveling in 2019W Final vs 38 yr old Federer looking at matchpoints.....
There is a clear difference
Just stop it. All hard courts play reasonably similarly when compared against clay or grass. Yes, there are differences between different compositions of hard courts, but come on, you are missing the point entirely. If you really want to differentiate between different surfaces by such a small degree, there are actually more like 30-40 different surfaces now. Heck, you could even argue that Wimbledon center court is a different surface in the 2nd week than it is in the 1st week or that different courts at Wimbledon are different surfaces from each other.
Let's not try to be ridiculous and just agree that there are 3 different surfaces on tour today, that are defined as different by large differences in speed, types of movement possible, height of bounce, etc.
CCPass
Semi-Pro
If that were the case, Federer should have retired in 2008
Thriller
Hall of Fame
NoleIsBoat
Hall of Fame
Karma Tennis
Legend
Let's leave Grass and Red Clay out of the discussion for a second because we accept they are two clearly distinct surfaces from each othe.
If all Hard Courts play similarly ... why does Novak have 9 Australian Open Titles and 3 US Open Titles?
Imho DecoTurf II is a signficiantly different surface to Plexicushion Prestige. Even when DT II was supposedly slowed down after 2011, it is still faster and the balls bounce through the court a lot more quickly than on PP. And afaic, this explains the difference between Novak's title count at each of those Majors.
BTW, have you ever played on Plexicushion Prestige in very hot conditions? humid conditions?
Fiero425
Legend
The time of the season comes into play! Rafa's notorious for fading close to the end of the year; hence no Paris Masters or YEC's to his name! Djokovic also "works hard for the money" and is probably just as spent having only 3 titles, but he usually has a finishing kick; hence all of the Fall Masters won along with multiple YEC's!
Congrats, you managed to miss the point of my previous post entirely. I know different hard courts play slightly differently and that other factors like weather play a role.
It’s a bit of an anomaly that Djokovic won 9 AO and only 4 USO, but I don’t think it means much. He’s made 9 finals at the AO and 8 at USO, and has pulled out a few very tough wins in the finals of AO while losing some he probably should have won at the USO. He also got extremely unlucky at last year’s USO with the default where he probably otherwise would have won. If you switch a couple results in the finals of each venue it’s much closer.
RS
Bionic Poster
Out of 10 for both?
NoleIsBoat
Hall of Fame
Karma Tennis
Legend
Anybody who has hit tennis balls on Plexicushion Prestige and DecoTurf II will immeadiately undertstand how different those surfaces are. It is too simplicstic to place them in the same category. All other things being equal, If they are different for the average tennis player, they are hugely different for elite players.
I don't know where you are posting from ... here in Australia during the Summer (December, January, February) there is a circuit tour of Grass Court tournaments. These tournaments are staged across several venues in the South Eastern corner of Australia. Anyone who has played them immediately undersands that while the surface is a grass, every tournament plays differently because the grass is different.
Same with the "Hard Court" tournaments here. Those staged at Melbourne park on Plexicushion / Greenset are different to those played at satellite venues that have Plexipave or Rebound Ace courts. The differences are noted by even intermediate players.
No matter how much critics try to water things down ... the current AO surface is a very different surface to the current USO one - and that is the main reason why Novak has not dominated on both.
Now all this discussion raising an interesting point ... perhaps there should be a single Hard Court surface used at Majors? Perhaps the AO and USO should use the identical court surface?
Clay lover
Legend
I can't say that Fed's era exactly overlapped with Djokodal's. He was already in decline when they hit their true prime.
So while Fed probably would end up probably second or even third best among the big three he was still the best among "his" generation
So while Fed probably would end up probably second or even third best among the big three he was still the best among "his" generation
Karma Tennis
Legend
Federer is a very engaging and endearing person who is widely loved. That has also contributed to his longevity.
If Federer had been disliked by a signficiant proportion of tennis fans, his "star" probably would have waned a lot more quickly in the presence of Nadal and Djokovic.
Most people love the "nice guy" and will cut them a lot more slack than those they disike .. regardless of how successful the others are in comparison.
Take the "Personality" aspect out of the discussion and Federer clearly ranks third in the Big 3 comparison on the basis of overall results by every possible measure when viewed in terms of overall career.
If Federer had been disliked by a signficiant proportion of tennis fans, his "star" probably would have waned a lot more quickly in the presence of Nadal and Djokovic.
Most people love the "nice guy" and will cut them a lot more slack than those they disike .. regardless of how successful the others are in comparison.
Take the "Personality" aspect out of the discussion and Federer clearly ranks third in the Big 3 comparison on the basis of overall results by every possible measure when viewed in terms of overall career.
egrorian
Rookie
I think there's a degree of truth in this but with the caveat that Federer has 8 Wimbledon titles and for many people of a certain age that is still the big one, significantly above the other GS.
I honestly don't know if I've played on Plexicushion Prestige or DecoTurf II. I've played on hundreds of different hard courts all over the US. I grew up in NJ playing on terrible courts covered in cracks and played on all varieties all over the country. I've played extensively around Los Angeles and Orlando. I've never played outside the US.
Despite playing on hundreds of hard courts all over the country, I can't ever remember one court playing significantly from another one, so I highly doubt I would notice a large difference from Plexicushion Prestige and DecoTurf II if I were to play on them both. I have played a handful of times on clay, and I did notice that it was hugely different from every hard court I ever played on.
To summarize, I guess since I can't say if I've played on Plexicushion Prestige and/or DecoTurf II, I can't say for sure that you are wrong and the surfaces aren't hugely different enough to be considered different surfaces. But, based on my extensive tennis experience and my intuition, I feel 99% confident that you are wrong.
Picmun
Hall of Fame
LOL !
Karma Tennis
Legend
If you have played on Red Clay ... you would know if you have played on Plexicushion Prestige and would be surprised at how similar they play.
Fair enough.What about the other 1%? LOL!
I'm not wrong. But being Australian, we are taught not to waste our time trying to convince Americans that they are wrong. Cheers
If you have played on Red Clay ... you would know if you have played on Plexicushion Prestige and would be surprised at how similar they play.
Fair enough.What about the other 1%? LOL!
I'm not wrong. But being Australian, we are taught not to waste our time trying to convince Americans that they are wrong. Cheers
I'm not arrogant enough to say that I know I'm 100% right. But to be convinced to change my view, I'd have to play on the courts and see for myself. Unfortunately, I don't think that's likely to happen anytime soon, although I would love to visit Australia!
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
"Everybody says Federer is the greatest player of all time, but he’s not even the second greatest in his own era," Cash told UBI Tennis.
"That’s hard to believe. If you are the best of all time, you should at least have a head-to-head record against your number one rival or number two rival. Surely, that would be the very first factor, I would say."
:focal(1255x702:1257x700)/origin-imgresizer.tntsports.io/2020/05/23/2822720-58219428-2560-1440.jpg)
Federer 'not even the second best player ever', says Cash
Pat Cash believes that Roger Federer will not only fail to go down as the best player ever, but fail to be remembered as the second best.www.eurosport.com
Discuss
Well, he is kinda right. Back in the day I always said Fed and Nadal were more equal for GOAT claims because Nadal owned Fed H2H, and you cannot claim to be the best if you do not dominate your rival. Anymore, Fed loses some cred as Pat points out, but it isn't enough to try to completely discredit him as Pat does.
duaneeo
Legend
There is definitely no overlapping with Federer's (2004-2009) and Djokovic's (2011-2016) peak/prime.
Nadal is another matter, as his peak isn't clearly defined. The period of 2008-2013 is often used as his peak/prime, but it can easily be argued his clay peak was reached in 2005. On grass, 2006-2011 > 2008-2013.
Exactly.
Sadly that many Djoker trolls just list the H2H without context behind each player has peak/prime/post-prime at different time frame.
-snake-
Hall of Fame
Sunny014
Legend
True.
Roddick, Hewitt and Murray are all of the same level peakwise, Murray was a bit more consistent due to he being from the baseline era, Hewitt had injuries and of course Federer prevented him from winning more slams, Roddick was a bit 90s oriented game and Federer never allowed him to grow, Safin was higher than all of them game-wise....
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