Pat Cash instruction on Tennis Channel Academy

sureshs said:
The good coaches I know are flooded with work, charge several times more than $30 a hour, and don't have a minute to post here. But I suppose there are a lot of losers too with plenty of time to spend here.
Click to expand...

Let's do a quick comparison of three coaches and Sureshs:

Tennis_Balla - joined: March 2006 - 3760 posts
Julian - joined: December 2006 - 3426 posts
Ash_Smith - joined: Jan 2005 - 4034 posts

Sureshs - joined: October 2005 - 36764 posts

I don't think your in any position to criticise anyone for having too much time to spend here.
 
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I made a Talk Tennis Warehouse meme a few years ago. Here it is again....

talk_ten_zps34a5dfb6.png
 
julian said:
You are probably addressing multiple questions
One of them is like that:
Does a slice serve requires pronation and/or flexion?
Did the person in the green serve hit a slice serve or a kick serve?
Do we have such a thing as a PURE slice serve?
Do you define pronation the same way as medical doctors do?
Probably the second question should be asked first
Regards,
Julian
Www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com
Click to expand...
Pl replace green serve by green shirt
Sorry
 
julian said:
You are probably addressing multiple questions
One of them is like that:
Does a slice serve requires pronation and/or flexion?
Did the person in the green serve hit a slice serve or a kick serve?
Do we have such a thing as a PURE slice serve?
Do you define pronation the same way as medical doctors do?
Probably the second question should be asked first
Regards,
Julian
Www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com
Click to expand...
I still don't understand what you are getting at. I know how to hit and teach a slice serve. I don't know the medical technical meaning of Pronation or flexion. I mean it as the finish of the stroke. On a slice serve the motion still turns the arm in the tennis sense of pronation on the finish even though you hit the outside of ball more. So I would never teach a player to karate chop finish a serve.

Do you teach the karate chop finish? It's a yes or no question. I'm not sure why you are trying to be confusing on such a simple thing?
 
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indianballer said:
I still don't understand what you are getting at. I know how to hit and teach a slice serve. I don't know the medical technical meaning of Pronation or flexion. I mean it as the finish of the stroke. On a slice serve the motion still turns the arm in the tennis sense of pronation on the finish even though you hit the outside of ball more. So I would never teach a player to karate chop finish a serve.

Do you teach the karate chop finish? It's a yes or no question. I'm not sure why you are trying to be confusing on such a simple thing?
Click to expand...
I do not teach any Karate chop
I will try to explain my question better
I am just before boarding the flight
 
julian said:
You are probably addressing multiple questions
One of them is like that:
Does a slice serve requires pronation and/or flexion?
Did the person in the green serve hit a slice serve or a kick serve?
Do we have such a thing as a PURE slice serve?
Click to expand...

There is no debate regarding this. All quality slice serves require pronation...Only very weak slice serves are hit with supination and no pronation.

As to what type of serve was hit in the gif (kick or slice), it doesn't matter because there was incomplete pronation, which is required on flat,slice and kick serves.
 
Raul_SJ said:
There is no debate regarding this. All quality slice serves require pronation...Only very weak slice serves are hit with supination and no pronation.

As to what type of serve was hit in the gif (kick or slice), it doesn't matter because there was incomplete pronation, which is required on flat,slice and kick serves.
Click to expand...

http://www.fawcette.net/2012/01/tenni-pros-pronate-on-every-serve.html

Read this article to understand how Serena's slice serves don't use pronation.

Not that it is good, but I am also seeing medical articles now about how pronation in tennis contributes to elbow injury.

Anyways, that is besides the point. Take up the issue with Cash who shows how excessive pronation happens and how to change grips slightly to avoid it.

And yeah learn to play at a high level and get known more before I take you with a millionth of the seriousness that I can give him.

That doesn't mean I agree with him though.

But do watch the program first. That is true for everyone here. You will never reach a level remotely close to a pro player. So watch his program with humility.
 
My sureshs memes will be tw classics.

Someone make one with sureshs doing some "computer" work while posting 100 posts a day on a Web forum.
 
Actually these guys got a lot of hate for advising this. And were forced to put out addendums for their incorrect advice. You pronate on all serves - it might FEEL like you are pronating less (assuming you have a good serve) but some basic pronation is part and parcel of every serve all the time - even from mediocre rec players.



You are simply wrong - and your technique on the serve is incorrect. Jeff Salz in particular got a TON of emails showing pronation on his example kicks. So while it might FEEL like to him he is not pronating he ABSOLUTELY IS.
 
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You're doing your arm more harm than good, by trying to stop the natural force of it rotating outward after release. Do you throw a ball like that?
 
GuyClinch said:
Actually these guys got a lot of hate for advising this. And were forced to put out addendums for their incorrect advice. You pronate on all serves - it might FEEL like you are pronating less (assuming you have a good serve) but some basic pronation is part and parcel of every serve all the time - even from mediocre rec players.



You are simply wrong - and your technique on the serve is incorrect. Jeff Salz in particular got a TON of emails showing pronation on his example kicks. So while it might FEEL like to him he is not pronating he ABSOLUTELY IS.
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Thanks but I will go with what pros like Pat Salz Serena are doing and saying and the articles I am seeing now about injuries. You take it easy
 
I don't think Serena or Jeff Salzenstein advocates the karate chop. You are applying their words to something you do that is not even in the same ball park.

It is like I find an article that says meat is bad and I stop eating tofu because tofu has protein like beef.
 
indianballer said:
I don't think Serena or Jeff Salzenstein advocates the karate chop. You are applying their words to something you do that is not even in the same ball park.

It is like I find an article that says meat is bad and I stop eating tofu because tofu has protein like beef.
Click to expand...
There are three se
sureshs said:
http://www.jeffsalzensteintennis.com/tennis-serve-pronate-on-the-kick-serve/

Another former pro advising not to pronate on kick serve.

And Serena not pronating on her slice.

So that leaves only the flat serve, in which the pronation is so obviously painful that is almost visible, and just cannot be good for the arm.

We need some out of the box thinking here for recreational players instead of just repeating the dogma.
Click to expand...
you are not supposed to reference someone without specifying the name.
It is NOT the way things are done in U.S.
Another countries maybe
 
sureshs said:
http://www.jeffsalzensteintennis.com/tennis-serve-pronate-on-the-kick-serve/

Another former pro advising not to pronate on kick serve.

And Serena not pronating on her slice.

So that leaves only the flat serve, in which the pronation is so obviously painful that is almost visible, and just cannot be good for the arm.

We need some out of the box thinking here for recreational players instead of just repeating the dogma.
Click to expand...
So how do you generate a topspin on a serve without pronation
Your knowledge of biomechanics is amazing
 
julian said:
So how do you generate a topspin on a serve without pronation
Your knowledge of biomechanics is amazing
Click to expand...
Why don't you ask the person who said that?

Seriously, he was only refering to the finish. You obviously need to pronate before contact. But not continue through extremely like Petros and injure yourself.

In the slice serve, you don't need to pronate if you don't want to. I think you mentioned it too.

Think outside the box.
 
sureshs said:
Why don't you ask the person who said that?

Seriously, he was only refering to the finish. You obviously need to pronate before contact. But not continue through extremely like Petros and injure yourself.

In the slice serve, you don't need to pronate if you don't want to. I think you mentioned it too.

Think outside the box.
Click to expand...
You have reading problems.
Read post number 109 again
 
First pic is a slice serve from Ian's "Pronate on ALL serves" video. Ian looked at hundreds of clips and had yet to find one where pronation did not occur.

Serena pronates on her slice serve. The pronation is delayed as compared to a flat, but it occurs. This is obvious from the way the palm turns outwards and racquet butt is on the outside of the hand in the follow through immediately after impact.

There is not a single coach that will advise to finish with racquet butt on the inside and palm inwards, in the immediate follow through after impact, as in the "Karate Chop" serve.


A2s517H.gif
7UJR84l.gif
FSiSAaA.gif
 
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Raul_SJ said:
First pic is a slice serve from Ian's "Pronate on ALL serves" video. Ian looked at hundreds of clips and had yet to find one where pronation did not occur.

Serena pronates on her slice serve. The pronation is delayed as compared to a flat, but it occurs. This is obvious from the way the palm turns outwards and racquet butt is on the outside of the hand in the follow through immediately after impact.

There is not a single coach that will advise to finish with racquet butt on the inside and palm inwards, in the immediate follow through after impact, as in the "Karate Chop" serve.


A2s517H.gif
7UJR84l.gif
FSiSAaA.gif
Click to expand...


I know. That is why you should contact the guy who wrote that article. Why are you addressing me in your posts?
 
We are addressing you sureshs because you are the one on here saying to think outside of the box and to not use pronation as it causes injury. Why even post the thread if you can't defend your position? If you don't have a position then stay out of this thread and stop cluttering this with your injury rants.

And why are you on tw at 530am? Guarding the castle?
 
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I also noticed that sureshs right toe follows the right arm in the karate chop. So it's actually a chop kick serve.

Sureshs,
Do you feel like it gives you more power this way? The leg kick is it a trained technical element?
 
Raul_SJ said:
First pic is a slice serve from Ian's "Pronate on ALL serves" video. Ian looked at hundreds of clips and had yet to find one where pronation did not occur.

Serena pronates on her slice serve. The pronation is delayed as compared to a flat, but it occurs. This is obvious from the way the palm turns outwards and racquet butt is on the outside of the hand in the follow through immediately after impact.

There is not a single coach that will advise to finish with racquet butt on the inside and palm inwards, in the immediate follow through after impact, as in the "Karate Chop" serve.


A2s517H.gif
7UJR84l.gif
FSiSAaA.gif
Click to expand...
Post 116 mentions 2 cases in the link of fawcett.
I am not sure whether it does matter or not
 
Fxanimator1 said:
I will need to see more obvious examples and comparison's than these, because I think Sureshs motion is looking good...
all kidding aside, my elbow hurts just watching him lock it up and force it to stop like that.
Click to expand...

Dude it is the GIF that forces the stop, not me!
 
sureshs said:
Dude it is the GIF that forces the stop, not me!
Click to expand...
This comment right here, is what confirms how little you understand about your own strokes and maybe tennis in general. I was not referring to the playback, I was referring to your service motion stopping...The GIF isn't turning your wrist, so that your palm is turned toward you, you're doing that. You're stopping your motion unnaturally.
 
Fxanimator1 said:
This comment right here, is what confirms how little you understand about your own strokes and maybe tennis in general. I was not referring to the playback, I was referring to your service motion stopping...The GIF isn't turning your wrist, so that your palm is turned toward you, you're doing that. You're stopping your motion unnaturally.
Click to expand...


giphy.gif
 
indianballer said:
Someone kill me. Please. Sureshs trolling is too much. I can't take it. Take the mountain dew and doritos away from sureshs so he will step away from the computer.

Sureshs. Do you have me on your ignore list? Please don't abandone me.
Click to expand...
So Sureshs is just playing me? He actually does know how to serve and this video of him is just a joke he's pulling or something?
 
Fxanimator1 said:
So Sureshs is just playing me? He actually does know how to serve and this video of him is just a joke he's pulling?
Click to expand...
No. He doesn't know at all how to serve. He is trolling us by constantly arguing pronation causes injury. And that pros agree with him. But when confronted with facts he ignores them and keeps spouting the same stuff. Classic troll behaviors. He is just doing this to troll this forum because he has a grudge against tennis coaches.
 
sureshs said:
http://www.fawcette.net/2012/01/tenni-pros-pronate-on-every-serve.html

Read this article to understand how Serena's slice serves don't use pronation.
Not that it is good, but I am also seeing medical articles now about how pronation in tennis contributes to elbow injury.
Click to expand...

You initially cited the article. You also contend that pronation does not or should not occur. And then you wonder why people address articles that you cited you linked to? You are trolling.

julian said:
Post 116 mentions 2 cases in the link of fawcett.
I am not sure whether it does matter or not
Click to expand...

I viewed the Fawcette\Serena Slice article years ago and it was already discussed on this forum. Fawcette claims that Serena does not pronate on her slice serve.

Fawcette is incorrect.

The problem is that he cuts off the video immediately after impact and does not show the follow through. Watch the complete video and you can see she pronates on her follow through. Delayed pronation on a slice serve compared to a flat.

This is the point where Fawcette cuts off the video, claiming no pronation.​

GF4OhCXl.png


Complete video where pronation obviously occurs on the follow through.​

7UJR84l.gif


Fawcette's Serena Slice Serve Video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=AshpV0lddGo
 
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