Pat the dog and baseball bat...

[Smecz]

Hey Guys

You sure that rule ,,Pat the dog'',it should be use to more power,more top spin and more speed.!!

However, this rule works because tennis racuqet better swings when it imitates baseball bat.!!

Of course, the pat the dog rule, here it's more about pointing the head smoothly to the ground, not stiffly..!!

Sinner, Federer, Rune do it
Still, it works well, but it's very fluid and dynamic.!!

But observations show that a racket with its head directed towards the net has more resistance and makes the swing more difficult.

However, if I hit with the head pointing down the court, it is easier to swing and hit, but the accuracy and control of the ball is worse...

I hit like that myself and I see more top spin and power, only when I lower the head, I am already close to the ground, I make a lever, and it helps me with fluidity and dynamics.!!

Maybe you should swing your forehand more horizontally and then hit vertically?!...

What do you think about this?!...
Does that make sense..?!

 

[ballmachineguy]

To your last sentence, no.

 

[Smecz]

To your last sentence, no.

All right, create this thread,I also based it on this:

GOAT Tennis

GOAT Tennis GOAL: - Better movement map - Better principles - Better feels

m.youtube.com

He He mentions it in his videos.!

 

[ballmachineguy]

All right, create this thread,I also based it on this:

GOAT Tennis

GOAT Tennis GOAL: - Better movement map - Better principles - Better feels

m.youtube.com

He He mentions it in his videos.!

From looking at the thumbnails and titles of the videos, it is apparent, he doesn’t know what he is talking about. Don’t even have to scratch the surface of his mumbo-jumbo to see that.

 

[eah123]

I’m sure the pat the dog or pet the dog focus has destroyed many people’s forehands. I’ve never heard of the baseball swing but surely that can’t be a helpful image. How many high level college baseball players do you know were also good at tennis?

 

[Smecz]

From looking at the thumbnails and titles of the videos, it is apparent, he doesn’t know what he is talking about. Don’t even have to scratch the surface of his mumbo-jumbo to see that.

He's talking about swing baseball in the 33rd minute,generally according to him tennis golf and baseball are similiar swings.

If I make a dry swing with the head only downwards, it allows for quick closing, maximum acceleration of the head, and makes it easier to retract the head.!!!

And if someone stands behind me, they will see that my racket looks like a baseball bat...(example sabr racquet with small head)

Of course, you can't hit yourself like that, but it's like playing baseball!!

However, in pat the dog, hitting the ball can almost end with a header into the net...

 

[TennisCJC]

I’m sure the pat the dog or pet the dog focus has destroyed many people’s forehands. I’ve never heard of the baseball swing but surely that can’t be a helpful image. How many high level college baseball players do you know were also good at tennis?

Actually, baseball is a great sport to transition to tennis. My partner for years at 4.5 USTA level was an ex-D1 college pitcher. Lefty with a good spin serve and a heavy topspin forehand. In baseball, catching, hitting, pitching/throwing and movement are all good skills to transition to tennis. Hitting has some similarities to a groundstroke such as weight transfer, pivoting on back foot and keeping the head still and focused. Hitting in baseball doesn't utilize intentional spin so that's a big difference.

 

[zoingy]

Dunno if I care for the illuminati flavored thumbnails but the idea of internally rotating the shoulder in the takeback to get a bigger external rotation stretch certainly has been around.

That being said, imo it's usefulness can vary from almost irrelevant on some conservative eastern forehands, to almost required on western forehands.

Though I don't really like the pat the dog wording - besides the fact that it implies a static position, putting a hand over a dog's head is something that most dogs don't like lol

 

[optic yellow]

Actually, baseball is a great sport to transition to tennis. My partner for years at 4.5 USTA level was an ex-D1 college pitcher. Lefty with a good spin serve and a heavy topspin forehand. In baseball, catching, hitting, pitching/throwing and movement are all good skills to transition to tennis. Hitting has some similarities to a groundstroke such as weight transfer, pivoting on back foot and keeping the head still and focused. Hitting in baseball doesn't utilize intentional spin so that's a big difference.

Easier transition than to golf I would think.

 

[optic yellow]

internally rotating the shoulder in the takeback to get a bigger external rotation stretch certainly has been around

wait wut

 

[zoingy]

wait wut

It's the same idea as the high elbow 'next-gen' takeback - more western grip -> wrist helps less with driving through the ball -> bent elbow allows ISR to fill in that role -> more ESR stretch helps with that ISR -> ISR in the backswing helps stretch you into more ESR which helps with that ISR.

Also similar to how Roddick and Kyrgios start with a bit of an ISR motion in their serve takebacks, though certainly it's not so required on the serve due to how much loading you can get anyway with such a large motion.

I think baseball pitchers will also do a bit of this too though I'm not a baseball guy.

Anyway I'm sure somebody with more credentials than me have talked about this topic somewhere hah

 

[Smecz]

I’m sure the pat the dog or pet the dog focus has destroyed many people’s forehands. I’ve never heard of the baseball swing but surely that can’t be a helpful image. How many high level college baseball players do you know were also good at tennis?

This swing pat the dog should be natural and automatic, the more you focus on it, the worse it gets...

It works best when you let your hand fall freely and use the lever with the right timing.!!

It's not about putting the head of the racket to the ground perfectly, it's about allowing gravity to work...

Further pat the dog allows you to play balls with more spin and power see Nadal and Federer.!!

Pat the dog is difficult with high balls, and if you want to hit it flat, you can do it but in a minimal version.!!

The racket is placed with the head horizontal to the court, there is not so much air resistance..

However, if I have a 100 head and I swing from the head to the net, there will be a lot of air resistance...

In squash tennis shots on the court, we often have the head more horizontal to the sky (the head is more at an angle) because these are cutting shots..

See, if it's very windy on the court and the wind is blowing against you, see how hard it will be for you to hit the ball, not to mention playing to the other side of the court...

 

[optic yellow]

It's the same idea as the high elbow 'next-gen' takeback - more western grip -> wrist helps less with driving through the ball -> bent elbow allows ISR to fill in that role -> more ESR stretch helps with that ISR -> ISR in the backswing helps stretch you into more ESR which helps with that ISR.

Also similar to how Roddick and Kyrgios start with a bit of an ISR motion in their serve takebacks, though certainly it's not so required on the serve due to how much loading you can get anyway with such a large motion.

I think baseball pitchers will also do a bit of this too though I'm not a baseball guy.

Anyway I'm sure somebody with more credentials than me have talked about this topic somewhere hah

This is the concept I don't get.

 

[zoingy]

This is the concept I don't get.

Ah yeah so if you have a swing that requires a lot of shoulder internal/external rotation, it's really difficult/uncomfortable to simply start in a super externally rotated state (though women will often have more shoulder flexibility, hence the WTA takeback). So you might internally rotate a bit at first, so you have a lot of runway for flinging into a really extreme state of external rotation, which then affords you the runway for the ISR motion you really want for contact.

But if you have a more eastern forehand then this isn't really so relevant.

 

[optic yellow]

Ah yeah so if you have a swing that requires a lot of shoulder internal/external rotation, it's really difficult/uncomfortable to simply start in a super externally rotated state (though women will often have more shoulder flexibility, hence the WTA takeback). So you might internally rotate a bit at first, so you have a lot of runway for flinging into a really extreme state of external rotation, which then affords you the runway for the ISR motion you really want for contact.

But if you have a more eastern forehand then this isn't really so relevant.

I am struggling so hard to figure out why this would be.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

This is the concept I don't get.

The opposite is certainly true on the serve. A good ESR on the racket drop will load (stretch) the internal rotators.

 

[zoingy]

I am struggling so hard to figure out why this would be.

The opposite is certainly true on the serve. A good ESR on the racket drop will load (stretch) the internal rotators.

I think I've just done a terrible job with my wording haha

It's all the same ESR -> ISR stretch shortening cycle as we're all familiar with - just that sometimes there's a little ISR before all of that, to get even more stretch. Mainly relevant for western forehands, not so relevant for eastern forehands where there's much less shoulder rotation entirely. Also less relevant for the serve because you have so much space for the ESR stretch anyway, though people like Roddick and Kyrgios will do a bit of an ISR pump at the beginning.

 

[optic yellow]

The opposite is certainly true on the serve. A good ESR on the racket drop will load (stretch) the internal rotators.

Yeah he is just saying that preceding the ESR phase with mild ISR subsequently improves the loading during that ESR and I can't figure out why biomechanically that would be.

 

[zoingy]

Yeah he is just saying that preceding the ESR phase with mild ISR subsequently improves the loading during that ESR and I can't figure out why biomechanically that would be.

Oh yeah it's just that you can have more space to more forcefully externally rotate, that's all

 

[optic yellow]

Oh yeah it's just that you can have more space to more forcefully externally rotate, that's all

And that allows you to achieve a greater degree of external rotation than you otherwise would? I am not sure I love this logic because extreme external rotation is not a very safe position for the shoulder to be in.

 

[zoingy]

And that allows you to achieve a greater degree of external rotation than you otherwise would? I am not sure I love this logic because extreme external rotation is not a very safe position for the shoulder to be in.

Yeah I can certainly feel a difference by performing some sidearm throws. One starting with the arm as externally rotated as possible statically, one starting neutral that dynamically enters external rotation, and one starting more internally rotated.

I'm definitely not recommending going full Jack Sock or Kyrgios style though, it was just to illustrate the effect through an extreme example. Maybe the fact that this "next-gen" forehand has practically gone extinct would indicate that such an extreme motion isn't what most people should be attempting anyway. But I think cues like "pat the dog" or "high elbow on takeback" or "racquet face closed or pointing towards back fence" all touch upon a mild version of this.

 

[optic yellow]

Yeah I can certainly feel a difference by performing some sidearm throws. One starting with the arm as externally rotated as possible statically, one starting neutral that dynamically enters external rotation, and one starting more internally rotated.

I'm definitely not recommending going full Jack Sock or Kyrgios style though, it was just to illustrate the effect through an extreme example. Maybe the fact that this "next-gen" forehand has practically gone extinct would indicate that such an extreme motion isn't what most people should be attempting anyway. But I think cues like "pat the dog" or "high elbow on takeback" or "racquet face closed or pointing towards back fence" all touch upon a mild version of this.

Okay I'll try this when I'm fresh tomorrow and see.

 

[zoingy]

Okay I'll try this when I'm fresh tomorrow and see.

I should probably add a disclaimer that my own forehand doesn't have that much of a dynamic ESR/ISR motion - I used to have more of it but it ended up being too hard to time when under pressure & I didn't really need the extra power from it anyway.

 

[ballmachineguy]

I should probably add a disclaimer that my own forehand doesn't have that much of a dynamic ESR/ISR motion - I used to have more of it but it ended up being too hard to time when under pressure & I didn't really need the extra power from it anyway.

It’s not about power.