sredna42
Hall of Fame
Tomaz from feeltennis channel advocates a wta type forehand for the average rec player. His reasoning is obvious enough.Well sure ... if you are willing to limit your ceiling to best girl in the world.
Pat the Dog, or not....
- Thread starter ChaelAZ
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Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
WTA style means the racquet face will never face down, correct?
sredna42
Hall of Fame
He explains it referring mostly to the wrist. But yeah the racquet goes down on its edge.
I may be wrong but i think that iracer/andrew from youtube hits this way
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
I think Delpo's FH is one of the best in the history of tennis. I also think 99 out of 100 rec players would end up with a better FH trying to use his FH type than say ... Fed. JMO. Thomaz on Feel Tennis had a good video talking about dropping the racquet on edge (Delpo) being simpler, rather than rf facing the ground. I am too lazy to look it up.
Delpo's FH looks similar to Agassi. Agassi never pats the dog in any of the forehands in this video...
I'd say if "Pat The Dog" comes naturally to you, go with it. But not sure if it is worth forcing a PTD position, like Macci does with the 4.0 junior player in the USPTA video.
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dominikk1985
Legend
atp2015
Hall of Fame
Feel tennis is something to be avoided, bad advice on almost everything. He is not even a tennis player, played some other sport for 20 odd years.
Watch and follow real tennis coaches - online tennis instructions, Jeff salezensten or even Brady from dtl.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
I personally feel that from a "pat the dog" position I accelerate the racquet much easier.
I also feels a lot more effective when trying to impart more spin on the ball.
I also feels a lot more effective when trying to impart more spin on the ball.
atp2015
Hall of Fame
I personally feel that from a "pat the dog" position I accelerate the racquet much easier.
I also feels a lot more effective when trying to impart more spin on the ball.
Pat the dog with a flip is a great "invention". With such a minor mechanical adjustment, you get to increase the swing distance by almost 2 ft and align the racket face to brush the ball instead of striking the ball square. I can't say enough to show appreciation for it's role in generating spin and pace.
I think Tomaz "Feel Tennis" and the Top Tennis Training Instructors both teach a similar drop on edge forehand. As a recreational, developing tennis player 'm currently going back and forth between this type of forehand and the Macci forehand (drop into tap the dog position). I've also been incorporating some of Ryan from 2minutetennis.net teaching. I think Ryan has good information about the type of finish recreational tennis players should try for to avoid getting too wristy (which was my tendency when i first started with both the macci and Feel/TTT forehands).
Hmgraphite1
Hall of Fame
Seems like delpo gets so much more power into his shot, it seems like he keeps shoulder loose to get shoulder lag along with wrist lag. I feel this in shadow swings when off shoulder moves ccw but hitting shoulder moves cw slightly before being pulled along
ByeByePoly
Talk Tennis Guru
Delpo's FH looks similar to Agassi. Agassi never pats the dog in any of the forehands in this video...
I'd say if "Pat The Dog" comes naturally to you, go with it. But not sure if it is worth forcing a PTD position, like Macci does with the 4.0 junior player in the USPTA video.
Yeah ... agree about Agassi. John Yandell once described Agassi as a "small flip" in one of the discussions here. I would think it would be a hard case to make that Agassi fh style topspin is not enough for the rec player.
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
i’m a big fan of the way tomaz teaches, particular for beginner/intermediate... good fundamentals from a proprioception standpoint,... unlike here where we’re often trying to dissect every angle, the muscle activation in my thumb, and the pressure on my front toe.
he caters to the 3.0-4.0 crowd really well IMO.
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atp2015
Hall of Fame
If average rec player has as good timing and hand-eye coordination, then you can live with a small flip. It's extremely small flip compared to Fed.
A larger flip helps with more brushing and less striking. It helps you hold onto the ball more to caress more deep. I like to use the term brush than hit. Advanced stroke is really brushing - either on top or bottom.
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Pete Player
Hall of Fame
The out-to-in-to-out-to-in videoclip by Thomaz is a golden nugget of Ytube tennis coaching. How informative and down to earth explanation!
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atp2015
Hall of Fame
Drop on edge and shorter flip is used by Fed as well when he is hurried.
His return of serve on fh from the baseline uses similar drop on edge technique. Sometimes he drops back and hits his more traditional pat the dog stroke. So you need both.
Check this vid
FiReFTW
Legend
lol he has racquet lag here, this guy analyzing his stroke is a m*ron.
Well the question has to be - what technique do you want to learn.
Do you have to pat the dog? No.
But to get that racket lag, ATP style whip, and top spin then yes.
The ATP style is considered more optimal, but you can still hit the ball in other ways.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Yeah, there is obviously a racquet lag. Maybe he just wants to accentuate that the entire racquet doesn't lag that far behind him as it would when he is hitting a normal FH.
ByeByePoly
Talk Tennis Guru
Actually ... depends how you define lag. Two elements 1) wrist extension (bent back) ... and 2) esr/supination where racquet head swings way around.
The idea with a "lag" is late release into contact. So all players late release a esr/supinated arm roll with a isr/pronation arm roll. The racquet head traveling from esr/supination roll to isr/pronation roll is a flip ... or at least part of it.
Most players including Fed here, bend hand back (extension). To me, that adds to the lag (marginally compared to how much arm roll can add). BUT ... the hand stays bent back to contact sometimes, and sometimes hand releases toward neutral (Fed hits both depending on fh). If hand doesn't release ... then that hand extension lag added nothing to released lag into contact. Do we still call that lag? I don't know.
But Fed has no arm roll lag in that ros ... probably what the guy in video was talking about ... not a moron.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Actually ... depends how you define lag. Two elements 1) wrist extension (bent back) ... and 2) esr/supination where racquet head swings way around.
The idea with a "lag" is late release into contact. So all players late release a esr/supinated arm roll with a isr/pronation arm roll. The racquet head traveling from esr/supination roll to isr/pronation roll is a flip ... or at least part of it.
Most players including Fed here, bend hand back (extension). To me, that adds to the lag (marginally compared to how much arm roll can add). BUT ... the hand stays bent back to contact sometimes, and sometimes hand releases toward neutral (Fed hits both depending on fh). If hand doesn't release ... then that hand extension lag added nothing to released lag into contact. Do we still call that lag? I don't know.
But Fed has no arm roll lag in that ros ... probably what the guy in video was talking about ... not a moron.
He was talking about lack of racquet lag before even getting to the point of the stringed meeting the ball and the subequent movement of frame/wrist.
Doesn't that make that sort of interpretation of what he is saying a kind of improbable?
ByeByePoly
Talk Tennis Guru
He was talking about lack of racquet lag before even getting to the point of the stringed meeting the ball and the subequent movement of frame/wrist.
Doesn't that make that sort of interpretation of what he is saying a kind of improbable?
Per my post above ... depends on definition of lag. Guy in video did not define it ... and Firefly
didn't either.I am guessing video guy's definition of lag IS arm roll swinging racquet head around ... and IS NOT wrist extension. I guess that because the wrist extension is clearly there in video.
Edit: you also can see in video there is no obvious esr/supination... that happens at slot ... don't have to wait until contact.
pencilcheck
Hall of Fame
Yes you are right. I thought you mean when you feel tired and your body will try to do the lag to accommodate.
The reason I said it feel to use more energy is due to my own personal experience.
Of course I never think about lag when I swing but I noticed that when I'm tired, my body lags a lot more often than I wanted to, it is almost like my body just can't hold on to the racquet anymore and my wrist give in that forms the "lag".
And I noticed that if I let that lag persist, I have no control/pace (sometimes), therefore I will try to strengthen my wrist muscle to overcome that lag, and that's what I mean by more energy used. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Think you mean decrease the swing distance. Pat the Dog makes the overall swing more compact.
pencilcheck
Hall of Fame
I suppose atp2015 mean that the ending of the swing (rotational and circular distance) increased.
ByeByePoly
Talk Tennis Guru
I want in on the what did @atp2015 mean Rorschach test:
I say he meant the distance the racquet head travels to contact ... further because of the flip. But still not as far as Sharapova or Keys.
Does the winner win a prize?
atp2015
Hall of Fame
,
He may not have gotten everything tight to everyone's perfect liking, I thought he did a fine job there to highlight the salient features. I can say it has helped me to execute better returns.
He may not have gotten everything tight to everyone's perfect liking, I thought he did a fine job there to highlight the salient features. I can say it has helped me to execute better returns.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
That makes sense. The overall length of backswing is reduced (compared to a WTA style huge back swing) but it travels far circularly during that Pat dog and flip move...
Suspect contact will be cleaner and more consistent with the Agassi and Delpotro style where racquet stays on edge and there is no patting and flipping going on.
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Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Somebody good at math can calculate the distance RaqHead tip travels in the following:I want in on the what did @atp2015 mean Rorschach test:
I say he meant the distance the racquet head travels to contact ... further because of the flip. But still not as far as Sharapova or Keys.
Does the winner win a prize?
The Sharapova swing vs the Federer swing with all the circular flipping. Distance may be pretty close when you factor in the dog and flipping.
ByeByePoly
Talk Tennis Guru
Yep ... I have had that thought before. The discussions here have been that the ATP FH with shorter backswing creates similar pace of longer swings because of late release of lag (flip). Like best golfers late release near bottom of golf swing. But also ... if you just watch added rh path with big flip ... it definitely adds to the distance traveled. Seems to me that is still not an apples to apples comparison even if Fed came close to Sharapova with rh distance. Sharapova is accelerating the full distance, and Fed's rf on fh isn't accelerated until butt cap forward where racquet flips around hand.
How did this happen? Swore I would never talk about the flip again.
Hmgraphite1
Hall of Fame
Just race your dog around the house, who gets there first?
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
How did this happen? Swore I would never talk about the flip again.
I take it you tried the dog and flipping forehand and it did not work out for you. You do not want to copy Fed and Suresherer.
ByeByePoly
Talk Tennis Guru
I take it you tried the dog and flipping forehand and it did not work out for you. You do not want to copy Fed and Suresherer.
I tried the full Fed dog ... and it seemed a bit of an overkill hitting against 50 mph (probably much less) rec groundstrokes. I did like the relaxed wrist and lag ... so kept something more similar to racquet edge down with small lag release. I hit a eastern fh, and release to pretty neutral by contact ... probably minimum arm roll.
I like the lose play at the wrist ... same with 2hbh. The strokes are more fun/satisfying to me than my old traditional fh. No doubt I still have the old fh built in ... probably a hybrid now. I absolutely hate hitting a fh way in front with the hand bent way back ... not going to happen.
ByeByePoly
Talk Tennis Guru
I am faster than the old rescue Chihuahua ... unless he is running to a meal.
Hmgraphite1
Hall of Fame
Dog, not large mice
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Jim Mclennan says that is a good way of describing pronation/supination -- a forearm roll inwards/outwards (pronation is inwards forearm roll and supination is outwards forearm roll).
Delpo and Agassi rely more on ISR/ESR instead of forearm roll. That is why you do not see the obvious Federer flip with Delpo.
I had asked about this in an earlier thread.
"I do not see how Agassi can be classified as "pat the dog" when he does not exhibit the flip that is always followed by the "pat the dog" move."
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sredna42
Hall of Fame
Yeah thats what i found interesting about his channel. He'd actually made a logical decision to apply a tennis approach just to suit the abilities of the average rec player so that they could play better quicker and enjoy it more.
Just a quick Q mate, do you find any difference in difficulty between brushing up the ball with eastern grip vs semi-western grip?
acintya
Legend
try the tiafoe,kachanov,medvedev,thiem forehand and you will get a inbuilt pat the dog in the motion.
THE WORST WAY OF TEACHING THE FOREHAND IS THIS ONE. the kids will then think the forehand swing is divided in more parts- we all know the forehands need to be one continuous motion without or with the pat the dog ****.
example of a wrong lesson....:
this guy.. lol...
just cut the crap and listen to this:
THE WORST WAY OF TEACHING THE FOREHAND IS THIS ONE. the kids will then think the forehand swing is divided in more parts- we all know the forehands need to be one continuous motion without or with the pat the dog ****.
example of a wrong lesson....:
this guy.. lol...
just cut the crap and listen to this:
Pete Player
Hall of Fame
——————————
No more on pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter are still subject to disclaimer
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
ah yeah, great vid.
15y ago i actually bought the 8 board from the guy he references as his buddy (broudy)...
used it for myself at one point, to fix a similar issue the boy was doing in the vid.... come to think it, i might dig it up again to do shadow swings at home
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Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
There is also this video from Ramon that talks about the universal 45 degree angle with the hips. I think Ramon is saying that you always line up with hips rotated 45 degrees away from baseline (thought it might be dependent on the path of the incoming ball but apparently doesn't matter whether incoming ball is x-court or dtl, always rotate hips relative to baseline). Can probably use this video along with the Tomaz universal swing path. Nothing contradictory between the two.
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D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
disclaimer, i hit approximately "extreme eastern"... but i used to hit hawaiian.
so comparing those 2, and extrapolating, the differences are:
* driving the ball: eastern to me is a bit easier (why i changed), but not impossible with H (SW gives best of both worlds)
* topspin: i think H (and SW) have a steeper swing path encouraging more topspin
* contact: SW tends to be out in front more, and higher, allowing a slightly longer path for the racquet to build up rhs.... a longer runway at the end
IMO neither is "more difficult", just different... arguably eastern is easier to learn, because the face is "more aligned" with contact to start, than SW
short list of other factors off the top of my head
* who are you playing with... if you're playing with other heavy topspinners or moonballers, i think you're grip will naturally tend to SW as the ball is high... vs. E would be better against slicers
* court surface, if you on clay the ball tends to bounce higher... fast courts the ball tends to stay lower
* play style, do you like to stay back or take everything on the rise (or come to net)... E IMO is easier to time for on the rise shots since the face is already flush... but if you wantto stay back and take full windups, SW encourages a fuller swing, and often adds a bit more top... personally i like to play aggressive groundies on the baseline, and look for opportunities to come in every chance i get
rather thank thinking ofthe "brush up" which to some sometimes implies a wristy manipulation, just think of the racquet path you need to take for both to squae the face to contact, and because SW closes the face a bit, therefore requres a bit steeper swing path to contact, which tends to encourage more top...
anywho, that's a short list of things i've thought about, i'm certain i've read better complete articles on the diff between E & SW...
one thing to think about too is,.... at some point in your playing, not sure of your level, but yoiu'll become obsessed about hitting depth (over spin), and you'll find that more extreme grips like SW, W, H, give great spin, but also harder to control depth wise
gl
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
ref i use:There is also this video from Ramon that talks about the universal 45 degree angle with the hips. I think Ramon is saying that you always line up with hips rotated 45 degrees away from baseline (thought it might be dependent on the path of the incoming ball but apparently doesn't matter whether incoming ball is x-court or dtl, always rotate hips relative to baseline). Can probably use this video along with the Tomaz universal swing path. Nothing contradictory between the two.
sredna42
Hall of Fame
Great post mate, i hope others read it and take notes. Yeah like you i use eastern and hug the baseline and rush the net constantly. My forehand is awful and lately, after dabbling with SW again, I'm wondering if getting the doorknob turn with eastern is just something my wrist and arm find awkward, since it feels so much freer with the hand under the grip slightly in SW. Effortless brush and topspin.
But I'm leery of switching grips because eastern is perfect for hitting on the rise. But then as someone else said to me, plenty of players like agassi davydenko blake nalbandian etc all hit on the rise with SW.
Just confusing myself and losing clarity when i step on court lately is all I'm succeeding at
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
obviously can't tell without seeing, but it smells like something else is going on there... plenty of folks generate more than enough topspin with eastern.
if you've been playing with it a while, at most i'd recommend is a smidge turn to extreme esatern...
but personally i'd only make a radical change to sw if i were completely changing my game style (eg. i'm joining a clay court club permanently and want to stand back and slug with all the rec-rafa-baseliners - though even if you didn't consciously want to, i bet your grip naturally shifts over time)... not saying you can't hug the baseline with SW though.... but you already have a lot invested in the eastern grip
how do you do "brushing" in mini tennis? maybe you just need to get under the ball more (by letting racquet head drop) prior to contact, and steepen your swing path (but stay with eastern)
FiReFTW
Legend
Wohoooo, *high five* for the extreme eastern club.
@sredna42 your forehand mechanics are messed up if your not getting spin, if you hit a proper technically sound ATP forehand you get a lot of topspin on the ball, even when you swing very through the ball and flatten it out it still has alot of topspin, even with a normal eastern grip.
ByeByePoly
Talk Tennis Guru
Yes ... I took a semester of @Limpinhitter Macci flip.
Where is he?I say esr/supination and isr/pronation because of differences between players.
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